Get Rich Education

With skyrocketing property insurance costs, more homeowners are skipping insurance altogether. That proportion is estimated at 12% per the WSJ.

Single-family rents are up 6.5% annually.

Next, we discuss what might be America’s best cash flowing real estate market.

Home prices are up this year for four main reasons: large Millennial demand, scarce supply, mostly healthy economy, interest rate levels that are actually normal.

As we discuss one of America’s best cash flowing markets, it’s in a state that has strong legal protections for landlords.

The cost of living there is 17% below the national average. Unemployment is 2%, according to the provider.

Single-family rents are $1,200 to $1,500; prices are $115,000 to $140,000. 

You can own a freshly renovated property, complete with granite countertops. Average tenant duration is 3-4 years.

With higher interest rates, more buyers in this market are paying all-cash or making a larger down payment.

Contact your GRE Investment Coach, a free service, if you consider purchasing property in this investor-advantaged market.


National home prices and insurance costs [00:00:01]

Discussion on the increase in national home prices and the impact of rising insurance costs on homeowners.

Rise in single-family rent growth [00:04:04]

Exploration of the increase in single-family rent growth and its implications for the rental housing market.

America's best cash flow real estate market [00:07:54]

Introduction to an area with low property prices and potential for cash flow, including its job growth and investor advantages.

The lost luggage incident [00:11:27]

Keith shares his memory of his luggage arriving late during a trip to Little Rock and going for a run in street shoes.

Little Rock's recognition as a top place for young professionals [00:13:15]

Forbes Advisor ranks Little Rock, North Little Rock, and Conway as top ten places for young professionals to live, highlighting employment opportunities and affordability.

Growth and economic drivers in central Arkansas [00:15:20]

Discussion on population growth, job creation, and economic drivers in central Arkansas, including the presence of distribution hubs, major retailers, tech companies, and government and medical sectors.

The demand for single family rentals [00:20:40]

The speaker discusses the shift in multifamily housing, the increase in demand for single family rentals, and the lack of new construction in this sector.

Arkansas as a landlord-friendly state [00:21:42]

The speaker explains that Arkansas has landlord-friendly laws and a simple eviction process, with evictions typically taking 30 days or less and costing less than $1000.

Criteria for properties in the investor market [00:24:59]

The speaker talks about the areas and property types that fit their buy box, focusing on working-class tenants and B-class properties in the Little Rock metro area.

The availability of properties in Little Rock [00:30:51]

The speaker discusses the current tight inventory in the Little Rock market and how it affects both homeowners and tenants. Demand is high, but there are fewer places to rent or buy.

Interest rates and cash buyers [00:31:52]

The speaker talks about the impact of higher interest rates on investors and the increase in cash buyers. Some investors are willing to pay all cash now with the intention of refinancing later when interest rates come down.

Advantages of investing in Little Rock [00:33:48]

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:


Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. National home prices continue to increase for at least four big reasons. There's also a hindrance that's getting so bad that it could keep more price growth in check. We look at why single-family rent growth is increasing. Then we focus on one particular metro area that could be America's best cash flow real estate market and why today on Get Rich education.


Speaker 2 (00:00:30) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:00:53) - Walking from Whitney Island to Mt. Whitney, California, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. And this is Get Rich. Education, National home prices continue to increase and no one knows what mortgage rates are going to do. There's one factor that could slow the home price growth party down. It could be impeded a little by these rising insurance costs. Now, in years past, do you know how many American homeowners decided that they were just going to skip insurance and not buy it so that they don't have to pay the premium? Any idea what percent? Well, the longer term norm is that 5 to 8% of homeowners skipped insurance.


Speaker 1 (00:01:38) - They just said we'll handle any risk and not buy it. Hm. Maybe that's sort of like not using a case for your phone, perhaps, which I don't actually. I never use a case for my phone, but I do have insurance on all of my properties. Well, The Wall Street Journal was just reporting that the number of homeowners that have decided to forego insurance has increased. Okay. The longer term historic number is 5 to 8%. That decided to skip insurance. And now amidst insurance premiums that in a lot of places have risen faster than inflation, that proportion of those that skip homeowners insurance is now from 5 to 8%, up to 12%. Yeah, 12% of homeowners electing to skip insurance. And they're going to be those people that are free and clear of a mortgage. And if you have a mortgage, you must have property insurance. The Wall Street Journal also found that it's mostly lower income people that forgo it, lower income people that skip the insurance. Now, of course, homeowner borrowers, you have to eat that premium increase if you're a homeowner, borrower, they have to eat that.


Speaker 1 (00:02:53) - You're going to remember that just seven episodes ago on Episode 461, I went into a lot of detail on the areas of the nation that do have skyrocketing insurance premiums. And if you're a landlord in any of those markets, you can pass along the hot potato because you can raise your rents in order to offset that. But primary residence homeowners, they cannot do that. They cannot pass along the hot potato. Homeowners have to eat the hot potato. And sometimes that hot potato can burn the roof of your mouth. That's why the proportion of those that skip insurance has about doubled. And also some areas have become uninsurable. If you want a new policy, think of some of the forest fire prone areas out west and you know, the eastern half of the nation, they can get forest fires, too, of course, But east of the Mississippi, it stays more humid and you get more rain. That's why it's just not as much of a problem in the eastern half of the US. Well, you've taken my guidance to heart and you sure are passing along the insurance hot potato, raising the rent on your tenants.


Speaker 1 (00:04:04) - Here's some evidence because John Burns, real estate and consulting shows us that in the latest stats, single family rents are up 6.5% year over year. Yeah, single family rentals are also seeing higher occupancy and lower vacancy, and that's 6.5% annual growth rate in single family. So that's worth watching if you forecast inflation because of course that does make up part of the CPI like Rick and I recently discussed. Now single family rentals. They are roughly one quarter of America's rental housing stock. And this differs, by the way, from the rent growth on larger apartment buildings. Apartment building rent growth is slow due to so much new construction of larger apartment buildings where they're just still not building enough single family rentals in so many markets. So with this low, really just awful affordability for wannabe homeowners, what's happening in this area is that single families, they're attracting quality tenants. As this affordability worsens, the quality of the single family tenant is therefore increasing. The Fred charts tell us that the median sales price of the new build home is now $437,000 for 37.


Speaker 1 (00:05:31) - Note that that's for a new build, not existing. And home prices are up, up, up for four big reasons. It's really for major reasons that home prices are up. There is high home demand from the large millennial generation, this astoundingly scarce supply. Thirdly, there is a still pretty strong economy and. And then fourthly, believe it or not, if you're new to real estate, fourthly is, yes, historically normal mortgage interest rate levels. All these things are supporting these higher and higher prices and this scarce housing supply. That is a genuine American problem that we have here. Now, President Biden, he's tried to address it with a five year plan that he announced last year. And in just two days, Republican presidential candidates are going to take the stage in California for the second GOP primary debate. And the presidential candidates, they should be asked, what would you do about the housing shortage? That question was not asked in the first presidential debate. If I could ask them one question, yeah, it would be about housing and our next president matters whether Biden wins reelection or whether it's someone else.


Speaker 1 (00:06:44) - But my gosh, America spends too much time wrapped up in all this debate posturing and all this media hype over the positioning of the candidates. I mean, this is already been going on for months and months. Trump, Haley Pence, Ramaswamy DeSantis. Yes, the primaries are sooner, but the presidential election is still more than a full year into the future, even from this point. And this has already been going on for this long. I mean, virtually no other nation in the world drags it out for this long. It's almost a two year cycle of vetting these presidential candidates with two years. That's half of a presidential term right there. My goodness. Next week, as I'll be leaning on my team for a makeshift studio, I'll be joining you from Chicago, Illinois. And I will be checking out the sites and also the real estate opportunities there and those still in Chicago land. It's typically on the Indiana side of the Illinois Indiana line, where you'll tend to find the better real estate deals and the lower taxes is back to this week's show.


Speaker 1 (00:07:54) - We're not talking about Chicago today. Straight ahead, is this America's best cash flow real estate market? It's an area that has population and job growth, but it's slow growth. You'll be surprised with how low the property prices are. I mean, they're often below replacement cost, which is remarkable. But what that means is with today's high materials and labor and regulatory costs, it would pay more to build a new home on that site than what you can buy that completed existing for home today that was built decades ago. And I've walked these very neighborhoods. A lot of them are nice. They're not in war zone areas. The city has a great base of distribution jobs. It says sector where it's hard to outsource distribution jobs over to a less developed nations because those jobs need to be fixed right there where you need to move the goods. So in this city, they are building fulfillment centers. That's warehousing in this highly investor advantaged place is also a state capital. So they have another base of government jobs that are not going away.


Speaker 1 (00:08:58) - I'm talking to an experienced principal in this market that offers freshly renovated property to out of market investors like you. That's next. I'm Keith Windell you're listening to Get Rich Education. Jerry listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 42056. They have provided our tribe with more loans than anyone there truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plex. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge personally, though even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in. Returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited. For some of them. It's all backed by real estate.


Speaker 1 (00:10:10) - And I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2, jobs, income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 668660. And this isn't a solicitation If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to 66866. This is Perrin Life's Patrick Donahoe. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Wayne Mold. And don't quit your day dream. Hey, well, I'd like to welcome in one of our marketplace providers in such in Investor advantage geography, that is in Little Rock, Arkansas. Brian, we're going to be listening to one of the voices of Marketplace today. Hey, thanks so much for being here. Hey, thank you, Keith. Appreciate being here for the second time. This is great. Great catching up with you.


Speaker 1 (00:11:27) - Well, that's right. Now, it's been a few years since you and I got together in person in Little Rock, Arkansas, and we toured the market. If we walked the number of properties. But I think the thing that stands out most to me with that trip to Little Rock, where I spent the day with you, is that my baggage arrived late. Now, we had good accommodations at the Capitol Hotel, kind of the stately nice hotel right in the center of downtown. But my luggage to Little Rock arrived about 20 hours late. I've had really good luck with luggage all my life, but didn't this time. And my most enduring memory maybe, is that I had to go running in street shoes. And I still remember near the end of my run, I was running over the bridge that spans the Arkansas River between North Little Rock and Little Rock. Looking down while I was running at these slightly dressy black shoes on my feet, thinking, My gosh, it's a miracle that my feet don't hurt me.


Speaker 1 (00:12:24) - Yeah, that's exactly what I remember, Keith. I remember piecing it together. So you didn't come right out and just tell me you'd mention your bag had been lost. And then you mentioned that you went for a run that morning and thought, What did you run? So, yeah, you described basically running in your loafers from the day before. So I was like, This guy's a real machine from the north, the Great North down here. So I was impressed. Yes. And you're probably also wondering, did you really have to go running it? Right? That's the other thing. Well, right. Hey, you and I were just discussing this great media clip that we watched there from the local news there in Little Rock. This tells us quite a bit about the economic drivers in Little Rock as well as the low median home price there in the Little Rock area. Let's listen to this together. This is about two minutes in length and then we'll come back to comment.


Speaker 3 (00:13:15) - We turn now to the national recognition that three communities in central Arkansas are receiving.


Speaker 3 (00:13:20) - Little Rock North, Little Rock and Conway ranked in the top ten places for young professionals to live by for.


Speaker 1 (00:13:27) - Some great news channel. Seven's Brenda Lipinski is on your side tonight. She joins us now live in our studio. Brenda, tell us a little bit about these rankings.


Speaker 3 (00:13:34) - Yes, Chris. So Forbes advisor analyzed 99 of 100 largest cities and found that Little Rock North, Little Rock and Conway had great opportunities for young people. Little Rock North, Little Rock and Conway named Top ten Best Places for Young Professionals to Live by Forbes Advisor. And some agree. I think that there's no no doubt here in Arkansas, central Arkansas that we foster some of the greatest minds in talent. The criteria for the ranking included employment and pay, housing affordability, lifestyle and cost of living. North Little Rock Chamber of Commerce saying investment in young people is crucial for the area.


Speaker 1 (00:14:11) - They're the next leaders. So we need to make sure that we can continue to recruit them and develop them because they're going to be the next people on our board of directors are going to be the next city council members.


Speaker 3 (00:14:19) - Mayor Frank Scott Junior, who's a millennial, says good public education and jobs are a must.


Speaker 1 (00:14:25) - We've seen historic job growth for close to 10,000 new jobs.


Speaker 3 (00:14:28) - Young professionals saying there's a ton of reasons why they like the area, the community affordability.


Speaker 1 (00:14:34) - Every single time I connect with someone and I'm I'm able to find a new opportunity, whether it be inside of work and with my career or outside of work with just having fun.


Speaker 3 (00:14:44) - And for the future. So I'm hoping the state will create policy that will continue to attract more young people and think about the ways that we can continue to attract diverse professionals and how policy can impact people's image of the state and of the area specifically. Now, Forbes advisor also says that the areas are evolving into an entrepreneurial and innovation hub, which may also attract young professionals on your side. I'm Brenda Lipinski.


Speaker 1 (00:15:09) - Okay, Brenda, thanks so much. Forbes also likes the cost of living in central Arkansas, where the median home price is about $200,000. Right. So that's what the media is reporting.


Speaker 1 (00:15:20) - But you're right there, you're the boots on the ground. So tell us more about population growth and job creation and just overall the market vibe in the drivers there in central Arkansas. We have continued to see growth here. You know, I think it was mentioned that over 10,000 jobs created in just the last five years. One of the things that stands out here, too, is really driving that growth is that we're kind of known as a distribution hub or an upcoming distribution hub. A lot of that has to do with our geography and where we're located very centrally in the United States. And we're at the crossroads of two major interstates, I-40 and I-30. And so we've seen in just the last five years a very large Amazon facility put in actually three different fulfillment centers put in. So that's said to have brought in around 2000 jobs just right there. Then we've seen other big retailers come in like Lowe's and Ace Hardware and Dollar General, and they've all built distribution fulfillment centers here as well. And then even still we seeing growth with manufacturing moving into our river port here.


Speaker 1 (00:16:26) - It was just announced this year that a big Trex facility, they manufacture decking materials and from environmentally friendly sources and they're putting a major operation here. And they were drawn here for the location in proximity to the interstate. So those things really are driving us right now. A lot of our growth is accelerated by this sort of fulfillment warehousing distribution space. We have other drivers, too, and just the last few years, very diverse in the economy here. But we have a large tech company here called Apta. G. They were created right here in Little Rock and have really accelerated their growth. I believe they're said to get up to around 800 jobs. And those are all young professionals that could be working in Silicon Valley if they wanted to. Very diverse. We have aerospace here with Disso Falcon Jet, and then we have lots of government jobs here. We are the state capital. So we have all of our state government here. We're also a major medical center. So all of our medical professionals train here.


Speaker 1 (00:17:24) - Our medical school for the state is here in Little Rock. So all of our large hospitals there's on that note, things that we have coming now, they're announced they're building a new dental school here in Little Rock. So there's not a dental school in Arkansas currently. Also building a veterinarian school here in Little Rock. These are both going to be attached to another college that's here in Arkansas. So starting on a good foundation for those two schools. But that's another exciting move for Little Rock. So all these things are driving the workforce and bringing in younger workers, generating out workers from the medical school, for example, putting them out into the marketplace here. So we have a lot of young professionals, and I think that's why Forbes ranked us in the top ten of places for young professionals to live being the state capital there. Yes, you have that base of government jobs, some of the private sector jobs you mentioned you mentioned the expansion of medical. You know, these are two areas, government and medical that rarely contract very much, especially with the medical often growing and then with the government jobs, with the state capital being there in Little Rock, those just aren't the type of jobs that are going to be outsourced.


Speaker 1 (00:18:32) - And they're also not going to move the capital from little Rock to Pine Bluff, Arkansas, anytime soon either. So you do have that base there. And Brian, you and I were looking at different media articles recently and studying more statistics. No one area has it all. Little Rock has a lot of advantageous drivers, especially a high ratio of rent income to purchase price for investors. And we'll get into that later. But really with one of the statistics that we were consuming together, basically, if you think of it as gradients in an area's population growth and job growth, maybe let's think of five of them. There's high growth, there's slower growth, there's no change, there's slow decline or there's fast decline. And of those five, it seemed to be pointing to that second one, slow growth for the area. Yes, I mean, we're a very linear market here. Our growth is consistent. We haven't had a major increase or a major dip. We're just very consistent in linear in our growth.


Speaker 1 (00:19:32) - But it is continuous. We've seen that happen with even with housing, we've seen a lot of permits increase in the last few years, more multifamily permits even than single family permits. And it kind of tells you that the demand that's there for housing that rises along with the growth we are in that category, I would say, yeah, that's right. When we think about slow population growth, obviously those people need to be housed somewhere. And in the past decade you touched on it. To your point, both Little Rock and North Little Rock have had more multifamily built than they've had single family homes built. And nationally we are just so undersupplied depending on what numbers you look at. Were millions of housing units undersupplied nationally? How does that translate to the local picture there in central Arkansas, including Little Rock as far as being oversupplied, adequately supplied or undersupplied with housing? Well, I think we're undersupplied with single family housing first, and there's a real demand there. And there has been an increase in multifamily and most of that multifamily increase is at the top of the market.


Speaker 1 (00:20:40) - So there's been a real shift in multifamily. And what maybe used to be an A-class multifamily building is now A, B or a C because new A-class has been built to replace it. So we've seen some shift there. But where the majority of the housing stock is coming from is the multifamily sector and that puts more demand on the single family rentals. I mean, that is still a very desirable place. I think most anyone who lives in an apartment or has lived in apartment aspire to eventually have their own home or be within their own four walls in a yard that, you know, they belong to them or they control or rent or whatever else and have their own piece. So their demand stays there for single family rental, but there's not as much being built. So we've really seen an increase in our single family rental rates. I know there's been increases across the country in rental rates, but usually it's linear here. But you know, we've with not a great big jump, but we've really experienced a significant jump over the last few years.


Speaker 1 (00:21:42) - And I think a lot of it is driven with the demand for the single family and there's just only so much of it Now. We think about investors. Of course, most of the investors that you provide product for come from out of state. They live in areas that aren't nearly as investor advantaged as Littlerock is, but that's about more than the numbers. Oftentimes it's about that local landlord tenant law. I've got to say, it's been a while since I've consumed any material about this, but I remember in the past reading for years that oftentimes Arkansas comes in as one of the most landlord friendly states. That's correct. And it's been that way for a long time here. Our process is very simple and it's very much in favor of the landlord. But here an average eviction, if you get to that point of having to evict, typically it takes 30 days or less to actually get the tenant that's fast and less than $1,000 and that's hiring an attorney. So you're hiring an attorney? We have several that specialize here in the Little Rock area, for example.


Speaker 1 (00:22:45) - They can turn this thing around in about 30 days. And the process is it goes to an unlawful detainer if you filed for eviction and the tenant hasn't followed the eviction process and hasn't followed the proper notices and the proper days to get out, then the legally you can follow a unlawful detainer. And once that process gets moving and it moves pretty fast, a writ of possession is issued. And so at that point, the tenant is actually served by a police officer and they don't it's not a harsh dragging out with handcuffs, but they show up and generally escort them out of the place. It's pretty quick process overall and it's backed up by law enforcement. So but in no means is it a bullying or a brutal process or anything like that. And most residents here in Little Rock in Arkansas in general, that's the way it's been forever. They understand it. And usually when you serve an eviction notice, it means business. And most tenants know it means business and they just abide by it. So really, we don't have to enforce all that many evictions all the way through other than that, we serve, so we serve evictions and they generally just get out.


Speaker 1 (00:23:51) - That's sort of the process in Arkansas is known as to being one of the most landlord friendly states, and it's been that way for quite a long time. Of course, we're highly interested in that long history of the law reinforcing landlord interests more so than tenant interests, since we are interested in being long term investors. And when we talk about a metro area there in and around Little Rock, including their MSA, which includes North Little Rock and Conway, and we sometimes want to think about, all right, now, what parts of town would fit ones by box? Because even in an investor advantaged place, you probably don't want class A+, single family homes because of those higher price points. Rents don't keep up proportionally. And then we also typically want to avoid class areas. Those properties are shabby. They can't attract a rent paying tenant and properties don't typically appreciate very well on those low end class properties. So tell us about those areas in the criteria that fit your buy box that you know that investors want to put in their portfolio? Yeah, that's correct.


Speaker 1 (00:24:59) - I mean, we really stick a lot into the space. We're looking for kind of that working class tenant. They've got a good job. They are, you know, blue collar. They're hardworking people. Generally it's a family. Those are the areas where we're focused on and we're not exclusively in Little Rock. As you mentioned, the metro area is about a 55 mile radius. There's about a million people within that radius, the metro area. And that encompasses other areas around us other than Little Rock. So the city of Little Rock. There's the city of North Little Rock, which is actually not just the north side of Little Rock. It's a separate city from Little Rock and the other side of the Sherwood, Cabot, Jacksonville, Conway, Benton, Bryant. All of these are communities, cities around us enjoying Little Rock. We find rentals in those areas, too. We target specific areas within those different cities where really that B-class property in that B-class tenant is looking to live. And so we're not just in Little Rock.


Speaker 1 (00:25:56) - We do venture out into some of these other areas and we're talking about the Little Rock, Arkansas, and the investor market there and its growth story. However, a slow growth story, perhaps it's not growing as fast as some Floridian counties are, where you have a lot of foreign in-migration, you're going to have less foreign in-migration, for example, in Little Rock as compared to a lot of other places. We think about where the tenant income stream is going to come from. We've talked about that. All of those market drivers there, we start to think about, all right, what are the properties like in the prices in the rents? So can you tell us about the property types and then get into some of the important numbers for investors, Brian, And tell us about the quality of the renovation you do to get that property ready and make it effectively turnkey for investors. Tell us about the properties, the prices in the rents. We try to target mostly single family and we do come across and dabble in some multifamily as well, and it's mostly smaller multifamily.


Speaker 1 (00:26:58) - So you know, anywhere from a duplex up to maybe a 20 or 30 unit complex and fits within our box. But mostly we're focused on single family rentals. Our criteria is a three bedroom. Obviously it's going to have a bath, but three bedroom, two bath is what we like. We do come across a lot of three bedroom, one and a half baths. A lot of these homes were built in the 1960s, 1970s. Those homes are going to have some of the more modern things, sheetrock versus plaster wire versus knob and tube. So, you know, those are reasons why we want to focus on those 1960s, 1970s homes. Again, most of them are three bedroom, one into two baths. Most of them are around 1200 square feet. And we do a fairly extensive remodel. We have a lot of boxes to check. But I would say our average home ends up with a new roof, new Hvac, new hot water heater, almost all new flooring. We always put in granite countertops.


Speaker 1 (00:27:53) - It's a staple in Little Rock. We find that that just is a little bit of a wow factor compared to some other competitors out there and what they're offering as a result. So we pay attention to the finishes. We want all the hardware to match, we want all the light kits to match. We want everything to feel uniform. And our whole philosophy is we're trying to attract best quality tenants we can, but we want this to be it. Hope this is the best rental property they've ever had as well. We want them to really fall in love with the property and our number one goal is to retain tenants for as long as possible because one of our biggest killers is turnover cost. So, you know, if you lose a tenant, you've got to get that thing rent ready and put it back out on the market. And you've got to go through the whole process of finding a new tenant. So what we find is by providing a better product, it equals longevity of the tenant and then staying with us for a long time.


Speaker 1 (00:28:46) - And we typically start with an 18 month lease with escalators there with rent increases built in. But we find that we keep tenants for three and four years. Really good success with that. And think a lot of it is due to the areas we pick and then the product that we put out in the market. That's an excellent tenancy duration between 3 and 4 years with what you just laid out and describe there with these fresh rehabs and even granite countertops in your single family homes, it kind of feels like your own. So therefore you want to be a tenant longer. And I think that tenant duration, as long as mortgage interest rates stay high, really is set up to lengthen because it's that much more difficult for a renter to go out and be a first time homebuyer. So therefore, if you put them in a rental that they're really happy in and get that right right from the beginning that you guys do, it's unlikely that they're going to move into another rental because it's hard to do better than that.


Speaker 1 (00:29:40) - And it's also difficult for them to buy their own home due to this affordability constraint with the higher mortgage rates and higher prices. And when it comes to property prices, we listen to that media piece earlier where it was stated that the average or median home price, whatever it was, is about 200 K. So tell us about what rent we would see with what price for one of your typical properties there that you prepare for investors? Long var properties once they'd gone through the full turnkey renovation process and have been rented, they fall somewhere in a price range of 115 to say $140,000. Maybe our average sweet spot there. And those rents range anywhere from 1200 to $1500 a month, just sort of depending again on the location where it is and that sort of thing. So that medium may be up there in the 200 range. But again, we're sort of focusing on the B-class areas. And so that's where our price points tend to fall, that sort of like 120 to 140 price range. And if you're new to the show and you're a listener in Brooklyn, New York or Burbank, California, we're not talking about the 20% down payment amount here.


Speaker 1 (00:30:51) - We're talking about the complete purchase price amount with what we've discussed there. Tell us about your availability just in general over time. The inventory here, not unlike a lot of places around the country, is very tight right now. I mean, a lot of people are staying in homes and real estate just isn't moving like it was. So we're still finding opportunities, but not like we were. And that goes all the way down to home owner occupants. They're having a hard time finding places to buy because the sellers aren't selling. And that I think, trickles down to tenants as well. They're just fewer places to rent. That's what we're seeing. There is less supply than demand. And when something is coming on the market, I mean, it's getting gobbled up pretty quick, be it a rental or a property to buy. So the demand is still very strong and inventory is low. No, I'm curious, with prices that low, 150 K or less now that mortgage interest rates are higher, I think you know that I'm a leverage fan and we have ratios like that.


Speaker 1 (00:31:52) - You might be able to pay a higher interest rate yet still have cash flow but with higher interest rates. Brian Have you seen it where anyone is interested in making an all cash payment, a greater proportion of those people than there used to be? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're seeing people bring more money to the table for the down payment. We've seen quite a few cash buyers that we didn't normally see before. So yeah, people are just, you know, using their resources to write some of these things out or there's understanding to that this interest rate level is probably short term. And so they're like, you know, hey, let me go ahead and get this great property and hold on to it. Now, put a little bit more money into it. I'll refinance it later. So we are seeing a lot of people think more with that type of strategy in mind. I guess one approach is paying all cash now and then mortgage rates come down to a level where an investor is comfortable.


Speaker 1 (00:32:40) - They could maybe do an 80% cash out refinance. In my experience. What I've found, though, is that usually when someone pays for a property, all cash, no matter what mortgage rates do, they don't go back and get a mortgage on it. They just leave it paid all cash. That's what I always tend to see happen. Absolutely. And that's not a wrong way to go at all. I'll tell you what. And with appreciation built in and then, you know, all the other benefit tax write off benefits and those types of things. I mean, it ends up being a great place to put your cash if you had your cash, if you look at the full picture of the return. So to your point, people who go there temporarily end up staying there, right? Yeah, it goes from temporary to permanent and keep that paid off condition, even though it probably doesn't make a lot of financial sense. But it can depend on what situation. Well, in conclusion here, is there just anything else that an investor should know in general about the Little Rock market or Little Rock property or the particular renovations that you make to the property there? One thing just to point out kind of from an earlier part of our conversation about why, you know, the city is great for young professionals and had that Forbes ranking.


Speaker 1 (00:33:48) - And, you know, our cost of living here in Little Rock is 17% below the national average. So your money just goes further here. I believe. And I think that translates out right. And you know, at our unemployment is around 2%. So it's a very low unemployment rate. So the cost of living is lower your dollars go farther. Your tenants here tend to be more stable. There's job opportunities for them. So I think all of that builds into why Little Rock is a great investment market and why we see tenants stay in units for longer than their lease periods. As far as availability and quality of renovations, I mean, we certainly have availability. We have deals popping up all the time. I mean, we're known for our renovations and being at the top end of our renovations and a lot of our tenants come to us almost word of mouth. They've been in one of our rentals before with a friend or neighbor, and a lot of times they are knocking on our doors as we're renovating, asking when is this going to be available for rent? So a lot of it is reputation of product out there, even among the tenant population, not just the buyers out there.


Speaker 1 (00:34:53) - So I think those are some of the things we have going for us here. We continue on our our journey here. We've been investing in Little Rock since 1997, so we've got a great track record here and a lot of great experience. Yeah, Your volume of repeat investors that want to keep buying there is really a testimony to what you're doing. Well, thank you so much for sharing this. It's really an opportunity a lot of people don't know about or a lot of people don't think about. It's hard to find a more investor advantaged place than Little Rock, Arkansas, and surrounding central Arkansas. There for you, the listener from Marketplace, you'll see our little rock provider there or contact your investment coach If you don't have an investment coach yet, you can visit Marketplace com slash coach and pick your coach It's been great chatting about Little Rock. Oh yeah, a great chat about Little Rock. You know, one of the things that I visited while in Little Rock, it was the Clinton Presidential Library.


Speaker 1 (00:35:56) - It's worth checking out. But, you know, the one thing that I did not see, despite all the memorabilia and historic tributes to Bill Clinton there, there was not one mention, nothing about Monica Lewinsky. I could not find one in the whole place. I guess it's his library and he'll be remembered how he wants to be. But yeah, these numbers really work for investors 1200 to $1500 rent renovations like what we discussed in purchase prices of 115 to 140 K, So you can start with one of those properties or get a pack of these smaller sized single family rentals and then they can manage them all for you long term. They seek tenants for life there, quote unquote. So we're talking about working class, stable families now here in central Arkansas that should not be confused with higher priced areas out in northwest Arkansas. Okay. The provider and I were talking off air about a story that's emblematic of that area, Northwest Arkansas, a schoolteacher priced out of Bentonville. She couldn't find housing there. So she lives in a Fayetteville rental and commutes into Bentonville.


Speaker 1 (00:37:12) - Okay. Those are both northwest Arkansas cities. Of course, Bentonville is famously known as the Walmart headquarters. So we're not talking about northwest Arkansas here, which is an area that just doesn't work as well for long term rentals as Little Rock, central Arkansas. Forbes Even highlighting that Little Rock ranks as one of the top ten places for young professionals to live in, pointing out those super low house prices, Little Rock should be considered to see if it fits into your portfolio as a stable place with some of America's very best cash flows, which you can do is from Marketplace. You'll see our little rock provider there. If you want to connect with the provider yourself, you can also go directly to Marketplace slash Little Rock or if you prefer, contact your investment coach. It is free and Jerry marketplace slash coach until next week when I'll be back to help you build real estate wealth. I'm your host, Keith Winfield. Don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 4 (00:38:16) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice.


Speaker 4 (00:38:20) - Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 1 (00:38:44) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.


Direct download: GREepisode468_.mp3
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The Fed can raise interest rates, but they cannot create housing supply. 

Housing intelligence analyst Rick Sharga joins us for the second week in a row.

This housing market is awful for primary residence homebuyers. But at GRE Marketplace, you can still buy income properties with rates as low as 4.75%.

Rick tells us that the most prosperous markets now favor the: Midwest and Southeast, single-family homes, rental property investors with buy-and-hold strategies.

National home prices are appreciating modestly. Home sales volume is still down.

Investors now account for more than one-quarter of property purchases.

Mortgage delinquencies are near an all-time low.

Rick and I discuss why this market is so bad for flippers. 

High homeowner equity positions ($300K+) support this housing market. 


The impact of rising mortgage rates [00:02:37]

Discussion on how the Federal Reserve's raising of short-term rates has caused mortgage rates to go up, affecting the housing market.

The affordability challenge [00:03:38]

Exploration of the impact of higher mortgage rates on homebuyers, particularly first-time buyers, and the decrease in affordability.

Low supply of homes [00:08:48]

Analysis of the low inventory of homes for sale, with a decrease of 9% from the previous year and 47% from 2019, leading to a challenging market.

The mortgage rate lock in effect [00:11:05]

Discussion on how the mortgage rate lock in effect can crimp demand but cannot create supply.

Hottest markets in the Midwest and Southeast [00:11:05]

Analysis of the hottest real estate markets in the Midwest and Southeast regions of the United States.

Positive turn in home price appreciation [00:13:06]

Explanation of how home price appreciation went down but has recently turned positive again.

Housing Permits, Starts, and Construction [00:21:24]

Discussion on the trends and levels of housing permits, starts, and construction, and the need for builders to increase production.

Investor Activity in the Residential Market [00:22:28]

Exploration of the percentage of home purchases made by investors, with a focus on small and medium-sized investors and the misconception of institutional investors dominating the market.

Delinquencies and Foreclosures [00:24:36]

Analysis of mortgage delinquency rates, foreclosure activity, and homeowner equity, highlighting the low delinquency rates, the presence of equity in foreclosed homes, and the importance of early-stage foreclosure sales.

The future direction of rents [00:32:00]

Discussion on the potential upward pressure on rents due to low affordability and high homeownership rate.

Inventory coming to the market [00:33:03]

Exploration of the impact of expensive inventory coming to the market and its effect on rent prices.

The overall economy and housing market [00:34:03]

Consideration of the possibility of a recession, unemployment spike, and foreclosures affecting the housing market.

The coach's role in finding real estate deals [00:43:06]

Explanation of how an investment coach can help you find the best real estate deals in the marketplace.

Advantages of buying properties from marketplace [00:44:20]

Reasons why buying properties from marketplace can lead to good deals, including lower prices and absence of emotional seller involvement.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Rick Sharga’s website:

Rick Sharga on X (Twitter):


Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

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text ‘GRE’ to 66866

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(00:00:01) - Welcome to. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Hold a terrific discussion today on the direction of the housing market, including lessons that you can learn for all time plummeting home sales volume and direly low home inventory. Why home price appreciation is taking place now. Could the government soon penalize you for owning too many rental properties? What's the best place for a real estate investor to position themselves in this era? And more today on Get Rich Education.


(00:00:33) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get rich education.


(00:00:56) - Walking from Horseheads, New York to Nags Head, North Carolina, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold. And you're listening. To get rich education, you are going to get a fantastic market update today. And along the way, you'll also learn lessons if you're consuming this 5 or 10 years from now. Our expert guest was with us last week to discuss the economy. This week, it's episode two of two as we discuss the real estate market.


(00:01:25) - He has been the executive VP of markets at some of America's leading housing intelligence firms, and today he's the founder and CEO of Patrick Company, either a market intelligence firm for the real estate and mortgage markets. And he has 20 plus years of experience in those industries. It's the return of Rick Saga Part two of two. It's not imperative that you listen to last week's Part one of two that we can help you see the big picture. Enjoy this long, unbroken interview and then after the break, I'll come back to close it. Just you and I. We're talking with Rick Sagar, expert housing analyst, previously. We talked about the general condition of the economy. And now Rick and I are going to break down the housing market with what's happening there. There's so definitively connected. Keith One of the things to that the Federal Reserve has done by raising those short term rates is caused mortgage rates to go up, right? Mortgage rates tend to run loosely in line with the yields on the ten year US Treasury bonds that we talked about at the end of the first segment.


(00:02:37) - Those are now up around 4%. And typically a 30 year fixed rate mortgage will be between one and a half and two percentage points higher than that yield. So in a normal market, we'd be looking at a mortgage rate today of about five and a half to 6%. Instead because of the risk and the volatility that the market is pricing in because they're not sure what the Federal Reserve is going to do next. We're looking at mortgage rates for a 30 year fixed rate loan of over 7%. The most recent numbers from last week from Freddie Mac, we were at almost 7.2% on that average, 30 year fixed rate loan and 6.5% on a 15 year fixed rate loan. You and I were talking before the show and and you know, historically speaking, if we keep these things in context, we're still actually below the 25 year average, which was 8%. But we have a whole generation of homebuyers who've come of age during the period of the lowest mortgage rates in the history of the country. They got spoiled, they got spoiled.


(00:03:38) - And to be clear, it's one of the reasons that home prices rose as rapidly as they did and got as high as they are is because you could afford to make monthly payments with a two and a half, three, 3.5% mortgage. Now, you still have home prices about as high as they were then, and you have a mortgage rate that's doubled. And for most home buyers, particularly first time home buyers that make your monthly mortgage payment was going to go up by 45 to 60%. And most of us didn't get that 45 to 60% raise last year. It really had a huge impact on affordability. In fact, this is such an unusual occurrence that according to Freddie Mac, it's the only time in US history when mortgage rates doubled during a calendar year and they didn't just double in a calendar year. Keith They doubled in the space in a few months. It was that kind of systemic shock to the system that really hit the housing market as hard as it did. Right. And they've also nearly tripled in a pretty short period of time.


(00:04:35) - Yeah, they really have. And again, going back historically speaking and and get this from Gen Z folks and millennials, when I talk about, you know, the old days of mortgage and I do remember my first mortgage had two numbers to the left of the decimal point. I forget if it was 11 or 12%, but it was something like that. And they basically say, okay, Boomer, but that 11% mortgage was on your $70,000 house, Right. And not, you know, today's median priced home of $430,000 or whatever it is. So it's a fair point. Mortgage rates are not high, historically speaking, but that monthly cost, because of the combination of home prices and higher interest rates, is choking some people and making affordability a problem. And because of that, one of the forward looking metrics that I take a look at is the purchase loan mortgage application index from the Mortgage Bankers Association. So this is the number of people that are applying for loans with the purpose of buying a house.


(00:05:35) - They're off almost 30% on a year over year basis right now. You can see without straining your eyes at all the impact that these higher mortgage rates are having on the housing market. And we had almost record numbers of purchase loan applications from the time people who are allowed out of their house during the pandemic until these mortgage rates doubled from 2020 through the early part of 2022, mortgage rates were in the threes and fours and sometimes even in the twos. Yeah, everyone wants to talk about mortgage rates and it is an important discussion to have here at Marketplace with our investment coaches. Rick Some builders, as you know, they commonly offer rate buy down incentives to buyers of new homes. And what some of our providers are doing here, Rick, is we have one builder where if you use their preferred lender, they're buying down your income property's mortgage rate to 5.75%. And we have another builder where if you use their preferred lender, they're still buying down your mortgage rate to 4.75%. And of course, with Non-owner occupied property here, you know, previously you had talked about mortgage rates in excess of seven.


(00:06:47) - They might normally be about 8% for non owner occupied property, but you're able to buy them down to five and three quarters or even four and three quarters with one of our providers for new builds right now, that's a great deal and your listener should really be taking advantage of those opportunities. We'll get into new homes in a few minutes and what we're seeing builders do for consumers, But have to tell you, those numbers are better deals than consumers are getting right now. And you're being generous when you're talking about private lending rates right now. Most of the lenders I'm familiar with are nine, ten, 11%, depending on the nature of your investment. So your folks are getting a great deal with those rates. We talked about purchase loan applications. The other advanced predictor I look at is pending home sales. These are people that are entering into contracts. The deal hasn't been closed yet. Has it been recorded yet? This comes out from the National Association of Realtors. And those numbers are down on a year over year basis as well.


(00:07:42) - There's a lot of rate sensitivity in the market, though, Keith. And if you go back to March when rates went down just a fraction of a percent, we saw more purchase loan applications. We saw more pending home sales. But as rates have climbed back up over seven, we've seen both of these metrics go down. Yeah. So we're talking about pending home sales. We're talking about sales volume that's down in this discussion, not sales price. And anyone might be hard to say, but when you see sales volume that's down, including pending sales, how often is that due to worse affordability and how often is that due to low supply of homes? Why don't we jump right into that? Keith That's a great segue. And this is a very difficult time in the housing market because it has both of the factors that you just mentioned, two very difficult headwinds for the market to try and overcome. And and we'll get into details on both of those in just a minute. Because of that, existing home sales were down in July and they were down pretty significantly on a year over year basis, about 16%.


(00:08:48) - And that's the 23rd consecutive month where existing home sales were lower than they were the prior year. January was the lowest month of sales this month, and it broke a streak we started this year. I was forecasting that we'd see between 4.3 and 4.4 existing home sales. That's down from about 5.2 last year in about 6.1 million the year before. Right now, we're trending at a little over 4 million existing home sales for the year. So even my relatively low forecast for the year may have been overly optimistic. You mentioned inventory and inventory is a huge headwind for the market. Inventory of homes for sale today is down about 9% from where it was a year ago. It's down 47% from where we were in 2019, which was probably the last normal year we've had in the housing market. In a normal year, we would be looking at about a six month supply of homes available for sale. That's what economists or housing market analysts will look at as a balanced market balance between supply and demand. We're at about two and a half months supply right now nationally and in many states it's much lower than that.


(00:09:56) - So there's just not much out here. And the only reason the inventory number looks as good as it looks and it doesn't look very good is because it's taking a little longer to sell properties once they hit the market. If you were looking at new listing data, it's even worse. There's very little inventory coming to market in the way of new listings, and that's because of the rate increases we talked about a minute ago. 90% of borrowers with a mortgage have an interest rate on that mortgage of 6% or less. 70% have an interest rate of 4% or less. If you're sitting on a mortgage rate of 3.5% and you sell your house and buy a house at the same exact price with a 7% mortgage, you've just doubled your monthly mortgage payment. It's not that people psychologically don't want to trade a low rate for a high rate. There's a financial penalty for them doing so. And until we see mortgage rates come down a bit, probably into the fives, we're just not going to see a lot of inventory coming to market except for homeowners who need to sell or have so much equity and maybe you're going to downsize into a smaller property that they don't care about that kind of shift.


(00:11:05) - Yeah, that is the mortgage rate lock in effect. Perfectly explain. And the Fed with the raising rates, they can crimp demand. But one thing that the Fed cannot do is create supply. As much as you might like to see Jerome Powell in work boots with a nail gun, that just doesn't happen. There's an image for you, for your listeners. Yeah, and I'm not sure I'd want to. I'd want to live in that house. That's not Chairman Powell building, but inspection. Yeah. Good economist. Maybe not a carpenter. We were talking about this a little bit earlier, too. And if you're an investor, this is probably worth noting, whether you're a fix and flip investor or investor who's buying properties to rent out a lot of the interest. This is from the sharing some data from and they've taken a look at where people are searching for properties and where transactions are taking place and they're finding that Midwest Southeast are really the hottest markets, places that are a little off the beaten path, you know, places in New Hampshire and Connecticut and Maine and Ohio and Wisconsin.


(00:12:06) - But interestingly, some of the markets that had been suffering a little bit, they're starting to see a little more interest in whether it's California, but off the coast or markets in Colorado or Washington state. But clearly, a lot of the activity, a lot of the money is moving into the Midwest, in southeast. That's right. With the work from anywhere trend, you might see this small flattening and not as much of a disparity in home prices between markets. You're certainly still going to see that, but that can just help create a mild flattening when it doesn't matter where you live anymore and you can go ahead and purchase in lower cost markets. Yeah, and what I'm sharing now is national home prices, home price. And I'm glad you mentioned what you just did, Keith, because the fact of the matter is this has been a very localized correction. And if you're in San Francisco or San Jose, if you're in Seattle, if you're in Austin, if you're in Phoenix, you're in markets where prices are off 10% or more from peak.


(00:13:06) - If you're in Boise, Idaho, you're off more than 10% from peak of Boise had oil prices go up by 47% in a single year, a year or so ago. So he just overshot the mark. One of the reasons the national numbers don't show more volatility is because of what Keith just mentioned. It's because people are trading in where they are in a high price, high tax state moving into a lower price state and candidly outbidding local buyers and probably overpaying a little bit for those properties. So you're seeing home prices go up in some of those less expensive markets much more rapidly than they would under normal circumstances. And what we're talking about here is national home prices that are appreciating at a modest rate now. Yeah, and they are. So if you look at whether you're looking at the Case-Shiller index, it gets published monthly or the National Association of Realtors data. We saw home price appreciation start to go down last year. It was still positive but going down and that was true until pretty much the end of the first quarter this year when the data went negative for the first time in years.


(00:14:15) - So we were seeing on both a month over month and year over year basis home prices go down and that happened until June, June, things flatlined in July. Prices actually went up ah, year over year. So if you're looking at the median home price compared to the peak price a year ago, it's actually up about 1% from where we were last year, which is kind of amazing. The Case-Shiller index is a little bit of a lagging indicator and it rolls three months together, but it also started to turn the corner with its July report. So after almost a full year of price appreciation coming down and prices in decline, we've seen both of these indexes turn and are starting to go positive. It does show you that there continues to be demand for properties that are brought to market. And while home price appreciation certainly isn't soaring by any means, it's back in positive territory now. And that's something that a lot of people hadn't predicted this year. When the supply of homes is this low, it keeps generating a few bids for any available home.


(00:15:21) - Now, not as many bids as it did back in 2021. But besides generating bids, you have these huge population cohorts of millennials and Gen Zers that are growing, and they're in their prime homebuyer years moving through the system to go ahead and place those bids and keep just modest home price appreciation here lately. That's sort of how I see it. Rick If you want to add any color or thoughts to that, I think you're spot on. Keith It's the largest cohort of young adults between the ages of 25 and 34 in US history. That's prime age for forming a household. 33 to 34 is the average age of a first time buyer right now. And so these people would like to buy a house. And for people who are investing in single family rental properties in particular, at least short term, the affordability issue is something that definitely works in your favor. If somebody was looking to buy a house, they might prefer to rent a house rather than rent an apartment. I've read research that shows somewhere between 20 and 30% of people who had planned to buy have decided to rent for the next year or two while market conditions settle down or while they can put aside more money for a down payment.


(00:16:27) - These market conditions are playing in favor of people who have rental properties to offer. One other metric I'd like to share in terms of home prices, Keith is the FHFa puts out its own index. FHFa is the government entity that controls Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. So these are your conventional bread and butter, vanilla kind of 30 year fixed rate loans. If you look at their portfolio, home prices are actually up 3.1% year over year. And every sector of the country is showing positive rice appreciation except for the Pacific states and the mountain states. And those are some of the markets we talked about earlier. And even those are very close to breaking even at this point. So HFA breaks it into about ten regions, nine of those ten currently appreciating year over year. Yep, something like that important for you to know again as an investor as to what's happening in your region. Again, whether you're you're planning to sell the property or rent it out. You talked about what builders are doing for your investor folks.


(00:17:28) - Yeah, we're seeing new home sales actually improving to consumers as well for a lot of the same reasons, incentives. So a lot of builders are coming to the closing table with cash. They're paying points on mortgages and getting those rates down where they're short term or long term. They're offering discounts, they're offering upgrades to properties. And so new home sales are still down, but just slightly on a year over year basis and have actually been beating last year's numbers for the last four months. My original estimate for new home sales this year was about 600,000. I think we're going to probably coming closer to 675,000 this year. And the only reason we won't sell more is because the builders aren't building that fast enough. But one of the reasons people are buying these new homes is because that's what's on the market today. People would have bought an existing home, can't find one. Here's the other factor. New home prices are down 16.4% from last year's peak. Now, this is informative. Think this would surprise a lot of people? Well, it surprises me.


(00:18:28) - It should surprise people because new home prices almost always go up, right? This does not mean builders are discounting homes 16.4%. What's happening is they are building less expensive homes, They're less expensive per square foot, and they're building smaller homes. And they're doing that in acknowledgement of the higher cost of financing. That also, by the way, is in sending people to look at these properties as either a starter home or a minor move up kind of property. But it is one of the reasons why new home sales are doing better than existing home sales right now on a percentage basis. That's an interesting number, Rick. A few weeks ago, I shared with our newsletter audience that builders are building homes smaller and closer together, which might be reflected in lower prices, but just didn't think it would be 16.4% lower from peak. Now, if you're doing year over year, it's probably not that big of a drop, but from the peak price we are off. And it is to your point, it's a pretty significant number.


(00:19:26) - It would be a problematic number if it was the existing home market, right, because then you'd be looking at the same property being worth 16% less. But a builder can kind of play with those numbers a little bit. Single family housing starts after falling for quite a while, are now back going back up only slightly from where they were a year ago, but they are moving in the right direction. Multifamily starts have actually tailed off a little bit after reaching record high numbers. There could be as many as a million apartment units coming to market this year. Yeah, which would be an all time record. So we've seen building on those multifamily units slow down a little bit. If you look at at new home starts for single family properties still below where they were a year ago. But again, for the first time in quite a few months, starting to trend up. A couple of things to share with your viewers here, Keith. In terms of construction, we're seeing construction continue to grow in the multifamily market because of all the starts we saw previously.


(00:20:23) - We are seeing single family construction slowed down, but that's because the builders are working their way through a glut of homes that was under construction. So we had a really weird happenstance about a year ago, a little over year, we had the highest number of homes under construction ever. And this data goes back to the early 1970s, and we had the lowest number of completed properties available for sale ever. And a lot of that was due to supply chain delays and to labor shortages. And over the last year to 15 months, the builders have gradually begun working through this glut of homes that were started but not finished. And we've seen the number of completed homes go up a little bit, almost back to normal levels, not quite there. One of the reasons they're not quite there is people are buying these homes before they're completed. They're working with the builder. Buying a home is it's almost ready to go, but still under construction. What's been encouraging, looking into the future is that permitting has increased a bit over the last two quarters.


(00:21:24) - We know builders are betting on the future. They're not necessarily breaking ground on all these properties they have permits for because they don't want to oversaturate either. And they're being very judicious with their building because they got caught with a ton of inventory during the Great Recession that they wound up selling at fire sale prices. But the trends are long term, looking like they're going in the right direction right now for new homes. So to help the viewer and listeners chronologically, we're talking about housing permits followed by housing starts. And then finally, housing construction. Right? Permits are up, starts are up recently, but down year over year. And the construction numbers are getting back close to normal levels. And we need the builders to build more because even before the rate lock effect took effect and existing home inventory got so scarce we didn't have enough housing in the works, we were depending on whose numbers you believe, somewhere between 2 and 6 million units short. We need the builders to come back to market. Note for your folks.


(00:22:28) - Keith Investors continue to account for a fairly significant amount of activity in the residential market. Over a quarter of home purchases 26% in June, which is the most recent data we have, were made by investors and believe this number actually under reports the number of investor purchases because it's from a company called CoreLogic, it's accurate data for what they count, but they only count investor purchases where the buying entity has an LLC and LP Corp kind of entity. And we know that a lot of buyers don't do that who are investors. So it probably understates it. But the fact of the matter is that historically speaking, 26% of residential purchases being done by investors is pretty high number. That's a pretty high number and as you alluded to, is probably actually higher than 26% of home purchases being made by investors. And so the headlines will breathlessly tell you that Main Street is being gobbled up by Wall Street. Oh, I know. And those institutional investors are evil people. They're buying everything that the truth is is completely the opposite.


(00:23:31) - If you look at investors who are buying properties, it's really the small investors who are buying about 46% of those investor purchases and medium sized investors about 35%. If you're looking at the biggest of the big investors, they're buying less than 10% of what's going out today. And they still own collectively about 3% of the single family rental stock. It's the mom and pop investor who continues to drive the market. Yeah, I'm glad you bring this up, Rick, because there seems to be this outsized perception that institutional money through someone like, say, in Invitation homes is just gobbling up all the good investor homes. And and they're really not. It's mom and pop investors that rule. In fact, there's some legislation pending in D.C. right now that's aimed to keep these institutional investors from doing what they're already not doing and have some tax penalties for anybody who owns. Here's the number that's important. More than 50 properties well, Invitation Homes owns significantly more than 50 properties. I know a lot of medium sized investors who own more than 50 properties.


(00:24:36) - Yeah, they're certainly not institutional investors. They certainly don't have a hedge fund behind them. Important again, for folks in this market to be in touch with their legislators and let them know what's really going on in the marketplace so we don't get this kind of bad legislation. It makes it tough for the average investor to really take full advantage of the opportunities that are out there. 100%. Mom and pop investors might need more than 50 units to obtain financial freedom. Yep. Just to wrap up, Keith, a couple of points on delinquencies and foreclosures. I know a lot of investors got into the business, you know, a decade or so ago and there was just a rash of foreclosure activity and you could buy a distressed property by just walking down the street and knocking on doors. It's a little different these days because of that strong economy we talked about earlier. In that low unemployment rate. Mortgage delinquencies are at an all time low. Mortgage Bankers Association reported that the midpoint of this year, at the end of the second quarter, the total delinquency rate was 3.37%.


(00:25:36) - To put that in context, historically the number is somewhere between 4 and 5%. So not only are we not seeing a lot of delinquencies, we're seeing less than we would see normally as seriously delinquent loans. The ones that are 90 days plus past due is as low as we've seen it in probably the last 6 or 7 years. That's really interesting. So not very many homeowners are in trouble with making their payments, which to some people might seem like a conflict with what we described back in the earlier part of the chat about low savings and higher credit card debt. So many of these homeowners are locked in to these really low payments where they got low mortgage interest rates. Plus inflation cannot touch those fixed rate payments. And that's an important point for those people that are in these homes. It would be more expensive for them to go rent right now, probably because they got such a good deal on the mortgage rate. There's usually a pretty strong correlation between unemployment rates and mortgage delinquency rates. So I mentioned that the most recent report had unemployment at 3.8%.


(00:26:37) - I think at the end of June it was a 3.5%. So we might see delinquency rates tick up a little bit. There was also some really bad social media memeing going on during the government's mortgage forbearance program. There was even an economist who predicted that almost everybody who got a forbearance was going to go into default and that would have been a catastrophe. If you look back a little over a year ago, actually more like two years ago when there was there were a lot of people in forbearance. You saw delinquency rates very high, but that was because people were allowed to miss payments. They were just being counted by the industry as delinquent. The fact is that less than a half of a percent, less than one half of 1% of the borrowers who were in forbearance and there were 8.5 million of them have defaulted on their loans. The overwhelming majority have done very, very well with that program. So it really didn't contribute to any kind of delinquency or default activity. So strong economy, extremely high, low quality because lenders really haven't been making many risky loans since the Great Recession.


(00:27:40) - The record amount of of homeowner equity that's out there. Yeah. Is keeping this market pretty solid to the point where foreclosure activity today is still running at a little bit less than 60% of pre-pandemic levels. So in a normal market, about 1 to 1.5% of loans are in some state of foreclosure. In today's market, it's about a half a percent. So we're just not seeing much go into foreclosure and the properties that go into foreclosure. The homeowners have a significant amount of equity. 92% of borrowers in foreclosure have equity in their homes, which is wildly different from where we were during the great financial crisis, when a third of all homeowners were underwater on their loans. At just about everybody in foreclosure was upside down. And people push back at me when I'm out talking at conferences about this. Keith Oh, yeah, they have equity, but they don't have enough equity to make a difference. Oh, yes, they do. 88% of the borrowers in foreclosure have more than 20% equity. That's typically the magic number that a realtor will tell you you need in order to sell your property and avoid any other kind of complications with one of these foreclosures, preventing any sort of fire sale and lowering of prices that makes all home prices go down in a neighborhood where not anywhere near that.


(00:28:57) - No, not at all. And in fact, some other data that I'll share with you and your listeners is that about 62% of the distressed property sales we see right now are properties in the early stage of foreclosure prior to the foreclosure auction, which means these distressed homeowners are protecting their equity by selling the property before it gets sold at a foreclosure sale. And so they're protecting the vast amount of this equity. But if you're an investor in today's market, there's some really important information in what I just gave you. You can't wait for the bank repossession. In this cycle, bank repossessions are running 70% below where they were prior to the pandemic, so there's fewer properties getting to auction because 67% of these distressed property sales are prior to the auction. Properties that get to auction are selling through at about 60% rate. So there's nothing going back to the lenders. So if you want to buy a property in some stage of foreclosure, your best bet in today's market is to get a list of people in the early stages of foreclosure and reach out directly to them.


(00:30:01) - Your second best bet is to get to that foreclosure auction. Be ready to move at the auction, and your worst bet is to wait for the lender to repossess the property. And in fact, I've seen anecdotal data that suggests that those properties are actually more expensive than the ones you could buy from the homeowner or at the auction because the lenders are fixing them up and selling them at full market price. Good guidance for those chasing distressed properties. So that's what's going on in the foreclosure market. I don't see foreclosure activity being back to normal levels until sometime next year. And I don't see activity bank repossessions being back to normal levels even next year. It's a very different marketplace. This is what I was just talking about. Keith If you were to break up what selling and what stage of the foreclosure process right now, about 64% of distressed sales are taking place prior to the foreclosure auction and less than 20%. Distressed sales today are those background properties. So it's a very different world than what a lot of investors grew up in.


(00:31:03) - Rick is about to share his summary with us, his closing thoughts. Before he does that, I've got two questions for you, Rick. I hear some people out there, it seems to be oftentimes the real estate agent type, maybe that's trying to be a big cheerleader for the market. And I hear a few of them say something like, hey, you know what? You better buy now, because when mortgage rates fall, home prices are really going to shoot through the roof. I don't really know that that necessarily happens because when mortgage rates fall, okay, that might increase demand of capable homebuyers, but it should also increase supply. Now, the mortgage rate lock in effect, goes away and more people will want to bring supply onto the market. And I also like to think about what happens when rates are falling. Typically, that means the economy needs help and unemployment might be a little higher. So my thoughts, Rick, are if mortgage rates do fall substantially, that might help home price appreciation a little bit, but I don't see it as any sure thing that that would make home prices go through the roof.


(00:32:00) - What are your thoughts? It's a great question. You make a very logical argument. A lot of it comes down to supply. And that's where I would hedge my bets. I don't think we see a ton of supply come back to market until rates are back in the low fives. So there's a point and a half of interest going from little over seven to maybe 5.5%, where we're probably going to see more buyers come to market than we're going to see inventory come to the market. My other thought we touched on it earlier is with rents. Talk to me about the future direction of rents. They were horribly hot a year or two ago, up 15% year over year. Rents have moderated substantially. But with this really lousy home affordability and a high homeownership rate, it seems like with this low affordability, we're set up for the homeownership rate to go lower in the proportion that rent go higher, which could put upward pressure on rents over time here. What are your thoughts with rents? Yeah, offsetting what you just said is a record number of apartment units coming to market this year.


(00:33:03) - There are likely to be some markets across the country that wind up oversupplied because of the amount of inventory coming to market. Now, don't get me wrong, the inventory coming to market is going to tend to be expensive inventory. And so that in and of itself could make rent prices come up a bit. I do believe in the short term I would tend to agree with you that the lack of housing stock available for people who would like to buy is going to play in the benefit of the folks who own properties to rent. And that will, I believe, be particularly true for people that own single family residential units that are like houses to rent. I guess we're going to split the difference on these two questions. I'm going to mostly agree with you on the second one. I do believe there's a chance prices will go up a little bit more than you think as mortgage rates come down until we get down to about 5.5%, mortgage rates are lower when we see more of that inventory coming to market. And what is the real wild card in all of this, of course, is what happens with the overall economy.


(00:34:03) - Do we enter a recession? Does unemployment spike? If that's the case, that should weaken, demand a bit and you could have a little bit of an uptick in foreclosures, which will weaken the market as well. So a lot of different components at play. And I think what people ask you questions like that, Keith, about, you know, mortgage rates come down, is this going to happen? They kind of oversimplify the equation quite a bit. There are a lot of other variables that go into it. 100%. Why don't you go ahead and share your closing thoughts with us? A lot of stuff we covered, so I won't dwell on too much of this very long. But from my perspective, a recession is still a real possibility. Probably not until next year if we have one. And if we do, it's likely to be pretty mild and fairly short and we shouldn't see a huge, huge spike in unemployment. I do believe that as the Fed decides it's done raising the Fed funds rate and announces that we'll see mortgage rates gradually decline back toward 6% by the end of this year.


(00:34:57) - And we'll be back in the fives next year. And by the way, historically, every time the Fed has stopped raising the Fed funds rate, we have seen mortgage rates come back down. Existing home sales right now are on pace for their lowest number since 2009. Likely, we're going to see somewhere in the neighborhood of 4.2 million existing home sales. But we're likely to see more new home sales than a lot of people had forecast beginning of this year, maybe 650, 675,000 of those sales in 2023. And we've seen prices decline in the new home market, but they might have bottomed out in the existing home market because of the supply and demand thing that Keith and I have kind of beaten to death during this podcast. Again, importantly for this audience, investors continue to account for a very large percentage of residential purchases and a lot of you seem to be shifting toward buy and hold strategies, which again makes ultimately good sense in a market like today's. And then that anticipated wave of foreclosures that all those folks on YouTube were trying to sell you courses to figure out how to maximize never materialized.


(00:35:57) - And at least during this cycle, not likely to any time soon. Probably won't. Yes, A lot of people a couple of years ago, especially on YouTube, were talking about a certain price collapse is coming and it never happened. And I never saw how it would have happened and I never made those sort of dire predictions. Well, Rick, this was a great chat about the overall economy, the housing market and what investors need with the housing market. I'm sure our audience learned an awful lot. It was a terrific update. If our audience wants to learn more about you and kind of wish this chat would just go on and they could learn more about you and engage with your resources. What's the best way for them to do that? Well, you can certainly follow me on social media. I refuse to say my Twitter handle is just Rick Saga. I'm on LinkedIn to hard to find there. You can also check out my website which is Patrick. Com. Enjoy doing these conversations with you Keith.


(00:36:51) - Think the first time we talked you reached out because I had come down like the wrath of God on somebody who was predicting a housing price crash because I didn't see one coming either and thought he was doing investors a disservice. So keep the faith and keep the good fight going. Keith And I'll be here whenever you want to talk. Jerry Listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 42056. They have provided our tribe with more loans than anyone there truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four Plex's. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge personally, though, even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group. Com. You know, I'll just tell you for the most passive part of my real estate investing personally, I put my own dollars with freedom family investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in. Returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%.


(00:38:00) - Their minimums are as low as 25. K. You don't even need to be accredited. For some of them, it's all backed by real estate and I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2, jobs, income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 668660. And this isn't a solicitation If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six six, eight six, six. Hi, this is Russell Gray, co-host of the Real Estate Guy's radio show. And you're listening to Get Rich Education with Keith Reinhold. Don't Quit Your Day dream. Yeah, terrific insight from Rick, as usual. It's remarkable how much this interview is aligned with what we're doing here. As Rick discussed how, though, it's a tough environment for homebuyers, it's better for investors, especially for single family rentals and especially in the Midwest and South are core areas.


(00:39:23) - It's a better market for the buy and hold investor than it is for flippers. It's a tough chase for flippers. Sometimes you don't flip the house, the house flips you. There are still so few homeowners in delinquency and foreclosure. Rick believes that when lower mortgage rates come, home, prices could appreciate more than I tend to think. We'll see how that turns out. And, you know, historically here, as we talk about the direction of home prices and the direction of rent growth Now with respect to home prices, when I provided you with the home price appreciation forecast, I keep somewhat undershooting. The market appreciation tends to outperform what I think by just a bit. Back in 2018, 2019, home price appreciation rates, they were just kind of bumping along at 4 or 5%. Back then, interest rates were super low, housing supply was more balanced. And I said right here on this show then about five years ago, that I don't see what will make home price growth like really accelerate or shoot up from here.


(00:40:32) - Well, then we had the pandemic, something that no one saw coming when the pandemic fog cleared. You remember that all here on the show in late 2021, I forecast 9 to 10% home price appreciation for the coming year, which back then I was talking about 2022. And then that appreciation rate for 2022 came in at 10.2%. Although I was close, I shot just a touch low. Now at the end of 2022, well, about nine months ago, I predicted zero home price appreciation for this year. As we near the fourth quarter, it looks like we'll get low single digit appreciation, but that remains to be seen. However, I've long been undershooting the market just a bit, though. Close and mortgage rates. No, don't even ask me. I don't try I don't make mortgage forecast. That is too hard to do. Making a mortgage rate prediction is almost like a certain way to be wrong. Although Rick and I talked about how this is a good market for investors, to my point from last week, in some markets, cash flow has become an endangered species with some of these increasing expenses for investors.


(00:41:46) - And again, I have some really good news for you here. We have largely solved that problem here at Gray of higher mortgage rates, hurting your cash flow. And that's why investors like you are still snapping up rental properties from Marketplace right now because of the strength of our marketplace network and relationships. Here we have a new build provider offering a mortgage rate to investors of 5.75%. Yes, they will see that your rate is bought down to 5.75%. In today's environment, another new build investment property provider is offering a rate buy down to 4.75%. Yes, you heard THAtrillionIGHT? And we have another builder provider where our investment coaches have been sharing with you a 2.99% seller financing option. There is more to it than that. And these builders, though they are in business to move property. So take advantage of it where you can. And besides buying down your mortgage rate for you like that, some are even waiving their property management fee for you for the first year. In addition to buying down the rate. I don't know how long all that's going to last, so this can be a really good time for you to contact your in investment coach.


(00:43:06) - Your coach will help you shop the marketplace properties, tell you where the real deals are and tell you how to get those improbably low mortgage rates for income properties. Today, your coach guides you and makes it easy for you If you don't have an investment coach yet, just go to Marketplace. Com slash coach and they're there to help you out. And marketplace properties they are often less expensive than elsewhere in addition to the low rates from some of the providers. But now you might wonder why often are the prices not always, but often, why are they lower? Well, first of all, investor advantage markets just intrinsically have lower prices than the national median. And secondly, there is no real estate agent to compensate with the traditional 6% commission, you are buying more directly. Thirdly, these property providers, they are not. And pop flippers that provide investors like you and other people where they just flip like one home a year instead. These are builders and renovation and management companies in business to do this at scale so they get to buy their materials in bulk, keeping the price lower for you.


(00:44:20) - And another reason that you tend to find good deals at Marketplace is that you aren't buying properties from owner occupants where their emotions get involved and they get irrational over there on the seller side. So you can go ahead and get started with off market deals at GRI, If you'd like the free coaching from our investment coaches, then contact your coach. And if you don't have one yet again you can do that straight at GRI that's an action item for you this week that your future self should thank you for until next week. I'm your host Keith Winfield. Don't quit your day dream.


(00:45:04) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.


(00:45:32) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building get rich education.

Direct download: GREepisode467_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

In many world nations, if you’re born poor, you stay poor. I discuss how in America, you can be upwardly mobile.

Back in 2010, real estate prices had fallen, but rents had not. This created years of cash flow. Today, as prices have outpaced rents, cash flow keeps shrinking.

Our Investment Coaches have access to income properties with 4.75% and 5.75% mortgage interest rates. It's a way to "bring back cash flow". Get started at

Terrific housing intelligence analyst Rick Sharga joins us for the first of two consecutive episodes.

Rick & I discuss the condition of the American consumer, inflation and interest rates, concerns about a potential economic downturn, the housing market, the impact of consumer confidence on spending, and the actions taken by the Federal Reserve to control inflation. 

There’s flagging consumer confidence and a yield curve inversion. Are these finally harbingers of an economic recession?

Rick’s informal survey of economists find that there’s a 50-50 chance of a recession this cycle. Earlier this year, 80% of economists felt that a recession was imminent.

If there is a recession this cycle, Rick thinks there’s a probability that it will be mild.

Average hourly wages are $28-29 / hour. Wage growth is 4-5%. Wages are finally running higher than home price appreciation.


The Future of Real Estate Investing [00:01:33]

Discusses how owning real estate can help individuals move into a different wealth class and the benefits of owning rental properties.

Changes in the Real Estate Market [00:04:06]

Explains how the real estate market has changed over the years, with property prices catching up to rents and the decrease in cash flow opportunities.

Taking Advantage of Low Mortgage Rates [00:07:53]

Highlights the opportunity for investors to take advantage of low mortgage rates offered by builders and the benefits of using their preferred lenders. (Yes, even here in 2023. We have 4.75% and 5.75% rates that builders buy down.)

The housing market correction [00:11:31]

Discussion on the correction in the housing market and its localized impact on different regions.

Economic landscape of the United States [00:16:09]

Overview of the US economy, including GDP growth and the strength of consumer spending.

Wage growth and home price appreciation [00:20:16]

Comparison of wage growth outpacing home price growth, impacting housing market affordability.

Consumer Confidence and Spending [00:21:24]

The correlation between consumer confidence and spending during the pandemic, the impact of subsequent waves of COVID, and the role of pent-up consumer demand and government stimulus.

Red Flags in Consumer Spending [00:22:25]

The disconnect between consumer spending and low confidence scores, the record level of consumer credit card use, and the decrease in personal savings rates.

Inflation and the Federal Reserve [00:25:44]

The high inflation rate in 40 years, the actions taken by the Federal Reserve to control inflation, the impact on housing costs, and the potential for a recession.

Yield Curve Inversion and Recession Predictions [00:31:07]

Discussion on the yield curve inversion and its historical correlation with recessions.

Impact of Recession on the Housing Market [00:32:04]

Exploration of the potential impact of a recession on the housing market.

Part Two: State of the Housing Market and Future of Investment Real Estate [00:33:03]

Teaser for the next episode, which will analyze the state of the housing market and the future of investment real estate.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Rick Sharga on X (Twitter):


Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

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Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Today, it's part one of two of my exclusive interview with one of the nation's foremost housing intelligence analysts. How's the condition of today's American consumer? What's the future of inflation, the Fed interest rates? And should you really be concerned about a downturn today on get rich education?


Corey Coates (00:00:28) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get rich education.


Keith Weinhold (00:00:51) - Welcome from Orange County, Florida, to Orange County, California, and across 188 nations worldwide. You're listening to one America's longest running and most listened to shows on real estate. With nearly nine years of weekly episodes. You're listening to Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Wine expert, housing and mortgage analyst Rick Sugar is back and he is figuratively waiting in the wings. Here to give us an update on the economy shortly. In many nations of the world, if you are born poor, you stay poor. It's really hard to change wealth classes because you can't own anything in so many world places.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:33) - If you're born middle class, you also stay middle class. There's no way out of that. Owning real estate is the number one way to move yourself into a different wealth class. Owning your own business is another way, but with owning real estate, it's quite easy to follow a template and do what someone else has already done. Within a proven system. You don't have to have a new out-of-the-box business idea. For example, in the US, if you start collecting assets that pay you each month, you can quickly become upwardly mobile. In America, even if you were born into poverty and have a long line of impoverishment in your family, you can own your own home and that can help you go from poor to middle class. You can add rental properties and go from poor or middle class to wealthy because if you're in the US you are allowed to own things. Yeah, keep accumulating properties and keep getting rent money from tenants. In so many nations of the world. If you come from modest means, you just cannot get dozens of people or hundreds of people to pay you one third of their income every month.


Keith Weinhold (00:02:52) - But here you can get all these tenants to pay you one third of their salary in rent so you can close that class divide. It's up to you. That's what makes the US great. You can move into a different wealth class, the GSEs, the government sponsored enterprises. They will even give you backing on a bank loan so that you can do this. They're really encouraging this and enticing you to do this with as little as a 3% down payment on your primary residence or 20% down on rental properties. It's like they're almost forcing you to succeed. And there's even a 1% down program for primary residences now available in some places. So the bank gives you the loan, the tenant pays you the rent, and the government gives you the tax break. Like I say, that right there is using other people's money three ways at the same time, the bank, the tenant and the government, it all sort of falls in your lap if you want it to, but you do have to ask for it and you do have to do some arranging and you need to be diligent and attentive to.


Keith Weinhold (00:04:06) - But most Americans, they just aren't wise to this. Now, the real estate market, it has changed from a few years ago. It was spring of 2020 where we had that big inflection point, as you know, because I often discuss it. That was that supply crash. And since that time, home prices have run up faster than rents. But I'd like to give you some broader perspective here. There's something important with real estate investing that you may not have realized coming out of the global financial crisis 2008, 2009, 2010. At 2010, when we really started to lift up out of the rubble because by 2010, property prices were still down low. They were near the rock bottom. They're even lower than replacement costs in a lot of markets, which was artificially low. But see, rents didn't really fall much in the GFC. Rents stayed the same. So you know what happened in 2010 and all the years following it will cash flow began. And that's because all over America you then had these high rents and low purchase prices that had been beaten down by the GFC.


Keith Weinhold (00:05:18) - Cash flow like that wasn't really normal, but by now property prices have caught up to rents and even surpassed them. So besides investors being used to low mortgage rates, these ultra low rates, they also got used to this ultra high ratio of rent income to purchase price. That's just not there like it used to be. So today, in more places, you can't expect much of anything for cash flow now with a few years of. Income property ownership. Say if you bought something late this year, a few years later, now you shouldn't count on it. But rents, as we know, historically rise to then start providing you with cash flow to complement the other four ways that you're simultaneously paid. So my point is that today the deals aren't as good as they were ten years ago and five years ago, and that is all part of the provenance and perspective that I'm sharing with you from the real estate investing landscape starting from back around 15 years ago. But today I posit that it is still difficult to find a better place to invest a dollar than with a loan on carefully bought income property.


Keith Weinhold (00:06:31) - And I have some really good news for you here. All right. We know higher mortgage rates. They're not just a pain point for first time homebuyers and second time homebuyers for that matter, but they're a pain point for you, the investor. Well, if you didn't already know, we have largely sort of that problem here at Gray. And that is why investors like you are still snapping up rental properties fast. From Marketplace today, owner occupied mortgage rates are about 7% in income. Property rates are about 8%. But because of the strength of our marketplace networks and relationships here we have one new build provider offering a mortgage rate of 5.75%. Yes, they will see that your mortgage rate is bought down to 5.75% for your purchase. Yes, right here in today's environment, another new build investment property provider is offering a buy down to 4.75%. Yes, you heard that right. And we have another builder provider where our investment coaches have been sharing with you a 2.99% seller financing option. So is cash flow back? Yes, a lot of times it is.


Keith Weinhold (00:07:53) - The builders know that it's a pain point for buyers and our coaches and I hear a Gary know it too, So we have rubbed salve on the wound here, I suppose. 5.75% interest rates, 4.75 or even 2.99. At times you'll have to use the builders preferred lender to get those terms. Otherwise I like to use Ridge lending Group because they specialize in income property loans. There is even more to it. These builders are in business to move property, so take advantage of it. And besides buying down your mortgage rate for you like that, some are even waiving their property management fee for you for the first year, in addition to buying down the rate and don't know how long all this is going to last. So this could be a really good time for you to contact your investment coach. Your coach will help you shop the marketplace properties, tell you where the real deals are and tell you how to get those improbably low mortgage rates for income properties. Your coach guides you and makes it easy for you If you don't have an investment coach yet, just go to Marketplace slash coach and they're there to help you out.


Keith Weinhold (00:09:11) - Hey, it's really great to have the savvy and the experience of Rick Shaka back on the show today. His mind is always in the market. He's often doing these public speaking appearances informing audiences about it. He's been the executive vice president of markets at some of America's leading housing intelligence firms. We have so much to discuss that Today's episode is part one of two back to back episodes with Rick. This week, we'll discuss the direction of the economy. Next week, we'll go deep on the housing market. But even our discussion on the economy today is probably going to be viewed through the lens of having real estate investors in mind. So this intelligence is fresh and it is timely here in fall of 2023. But even if you're listening to this, a decade from now, in 2033, you are going to get lessons for all time. It's the economy this week and the real estate market next week. It could be a day or two until we have today's episode on Get Rich Education YouTube. But you can watch us there as well if you want the visuals and charts that complement our discussion.


Keith Weinhold (00:10:19) - Many of the sources that he cites today will be from Trading economics in the US Bureau of Economic Analysis. What's the present and future of the economy, especially as it pertains to real estate investor interest with Rick and I straight ahead. I'm Keith Reinhold in this is get rich education. Jerry listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 42056. They've provided our tribe with more lows than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four Plex's So start your prequalification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge personally, though, even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group. You know, I'll just tell you for the most passive part of my real estate investing personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in. Returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25.


Keith Weinhold (00:11:31) - K. You don't even need to be accredited. For some of them, it's all backed by real estate and I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains and your W-2 jobs income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 668660, and this isn't a solicitation If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to 66866. This is real estate investment cogeneration. Listen to get Rich education with Keith Reinhold and don't quit your day dream. And you're going to get a fantastic market update today. And you're also going to learn lessons even if you're consuming this 5 or 10 years from now. Our expert guest was first with us here six months ago. He's been the executive VP of markets at some of America's leading housing intelligence firms. He was twice named to the Inman News Inman 100 most influential real estate leaders.


Keith Weinhold (00:12:54) - He is one of the country's most frequently quoted sources on real estate, mortgage and foreclosure markets. You've seen him seemingly everywhere CNBC, CBS News, NBC News, CNN, ABC News, Fox, Bloomberg in NPR got about just every letter of the alphabet in there on that one. Today, he's the founder and CEO of J. Patrick Company. They're a market intelligence firm for the real estate and mortgage markets. He has 20 plus years of experience in those industries. Hey, welcome back to Rick Saga. Thank you for having me, Keith. Happy to be here. It's an interesting time. Rick. I think some people are rather confused because you have such unusually low housing supply still. You have higher mortgage rates and we're careful not to call them high mortgage rates because we know historically they're pretty normal. And you have what I would characterize is a rather distinct regional variation in home price appreciation. So we're going to get some clarity today from that confusion. Now, if you're listening on audio only, Rick will describe the charts in a way that gives you a good experience.


Keith Weinhold (00:14:03) - If you're watching this on YouTube, go ahead and give us a like. So we really anticipate, Rick, your take on both the broader economy first and then the real estate market. That's exactly what we're going to go over today. And before we get started, I think you said something I'd like to emphasize a little bit. And this is something we talked about. I believe the last time we chatted is I've been saying all along that we were not going to see a housing market crash. We were going to see a correction of sorts and that the correction was going to be very, very localized. That the results you see in coastal California, in the Pacific Northwest, in markets that were overpriced, like Boise and Salt Lake City and Phoenix and Austin, we're going to be very different than what you saw on the East Coast, particularly the southeastern states, places like Tennessee and Florida and the Carolinas and virtually everywhere else in Texas other than Austin. So it's really worked out that way. There are some markets where we're seeing double digit price declines and other markets where prices continue to go up.


Keith Weinhold (00:15:05) - And we'll get into the national trends in a minute. But thought that was a really important point. Keith Yeah, Thank you for adding that, at least for a while there. Rick. It was one of the most unusual home price appreciation maps I have ever seen. There were some exceptions, but generally the nation east of the Mississippi River, you had rising home prices and recently west of the Mississippi River, you had falling home prices like a river divided it. It was really weird. To your point, it's normalized a little bit. I live in California. Speaking of weird and the pricing out here, the month over month prices and year over year prices went down for the first time in quite a while for about four consecutive months before normalizing in July. Now, even within California, you see different price trends depending on where you are in the state. But the point is really important for investors to remember that you almost threw the national numbers out, that they're important from a trend perspective, but you really need to become an expert in whatever market you happen to be investing in because the local conditions really determine how successful you're going to be.


Keith Weinhold (00:16:09) - Like the national outdoor temperature average is pretty useless, almost somewhat like the national home price average is. I guess the national home price average Still has some meaning to it though. Yeah, and you don't find quite as much variation in home price trends as you do in temperatures, but your points well taken. And again, it's important to be looking for economic trends. It's important to be looking for housing market trends and the markets that you're interested in investing in because that makes all the difference. So we're just going to talk about the general economic landscape of the United States, and then we're going to pivot into real estate and just what's going on with the housing market and getting the latest there. Yeah, why don't we jump right into it at this point, Keith, We're going to do a fall update on the housing market for this year. We're going to take a look at the economy. We'll take a look at what's going on in housing. I have a few slides to share on what's going on to delinquencies and defaults because I know a lot of investors are interested in foreclosure properties.


Keith Weinhold (00:17:11) - And then we'll have some closing thoughts and then you can chat a little bit more about some of the observations we're making in the market today. Let's start talking about that economy, including that part where some people anymore, year after year, they're always predicting this recession that never quite seems to happen. Well, we have predictions of a recession that are very much like predictions of a housing crash. And if you keep predicting that terrible thing long enough, someday you'll probably be right. It'll be right eventually. Just like a broken clock is right. Broken clock. It's right twice a day. So the GDP, the gross domestic product is the way that that most economists measure the strength of the economy. And the second quarter, this number was just adjusted downward a little bit, but we still had over 2% growth for the second quarter of 2023. That was a higher number than most economists had forecast. It was certainly a higher number than what the Federal Reserve was expecting. But it really shows you the strength of the US consumer.


Keith Weinhold (00:18:09) - A lot of people probably don't realize that almost two thirds of the GDP is comprised of consumer spending. There's other factors that go into it business spending, government spending, productivity, trade and the like. But two thirds of it is consumer spending. So when you see the GDP showing strong numbers, it typically means that the consumer is doing pretty well. And that's an important consideration as we move forward. Yeah, that's right. One of those reasons consumers are spending is because we're in this economy where pretty much if you want to have a job, then you've got a job. Yeah. The headlines read about tech companies doing layoffs and mortgage companies doing layoffs. Bottom line is the most recent unemployment numbers we saw were 3.8%. I think we're getting a little spoiled by some of these low unemployment rates because people forget historically, anytime you were under 5% unemployment, it was considered full employment. And the fact of the matter is there's still more jobs open than there are people looking for work. There's about 9.5 million open jobs in about 6 million people who are looking for work.


Keith Weinhold (00:19:11) - So employers have to compete with each other for those employees. And so these low unemployment levels are actually one of the things that's causing wages to go up, which continues to stoke inflation when there are more open jobs than there even are workers that makes employers want to entice employees with higher pay. Yeah, they need to do that to keep employees on the payrolls and they need to do that to hire new employees. So whether you look at hourly wages, which at the moment are up around 28, $29 an hour, or you're looking at annual wage growth, which is running around 4 to 5% a year. Wages are very strong right now. And this is the first time, Keith, in many years that I've been able to tell people that wage growth actually is running higher than home price appreciation for well over a decade. We saw home prices appreciate much more rapidly than we saw wages. And this is the first time in a while where that situation has been reversed. That's a really interesting takeaway, Rick.


Keith Weinhold (00:20:16) - Wage growth that's outstripping home price growth and that's going to be important going forward because one of the big headwinds that the housing market faces today is affordability. Despite what we just talked about, home prices nationally are running at all time high levels. We're going to talk about the cost of financing be much higher than it was just a year ago. And wage growth is the one positive in that category. As wages continue to grow and if home prices settled out a little bit, affordability ultimately will be a little bit better for potential homebuyers. Average wages at 28 to $29 an hour, Americans are basically making a dollar every two minutes now yet could be worse. And that varies, again, market to market, shock to job, but it shows you what's going on on average, partly because of this, consumer spending continues to be very strong. But one of the the real unusual situations we're looking at today is that there's usually a direct correlation between consumer confidence and consumer spending. And the more confident consumers feel about things, the more willing they are to spend money, particularly on big ticket items like cars and houses.


Keith Weinhold (00:21:24) - And that was all true. And the correlation held true until we hit the pandemic. And as we started to come out of the first wave of Covid, you saw consumer confidence start to go up, but then it came back down as we had subsequent waves of Covid. Then we had the war in Ukraine that we had high inflation and all sorts of other odds and ends. And consumer confidence has really never recovered back to pre-pandemic levels while consumer spending has continued to go up. And part of that is pent up consumer demand. We still hear people talking about supply chain delays, trying to order appliances and the like and having to wait for months. Part of it is all the stimulus money that the government poured into the economy during the pandemic and probably overstimulated the economy to a certain extent. One of my economist friends refers to what the government did in terms of stimulus, is trying to stuff $15 trillion into a $3 trillion hole. And the numbers may be a little lost. But think the visuals is image is kind of good.


Keith Weinhold (00:22:25) - But this disconnect we're seeing between. How much money consumers are spending and their relative low confidence scores is a red flag of sorts in a couple of ways. It's a red flag, among other ways, in that if consumer confidence doesn't recover, consumers ultimately could pull back on spending, and that really could ultimately lead us into a recession. Consumer spending outpacing consumer confidence. There are other two other red flags with this consumer spending, and we'll cover them pretty quickly. What is that? Consumer credit card use is at an all time high in the last quarter. For the first time ever, consumer credit card use topped $1 trillion. And the concern here is that consumers in a high cost of living environment may be tapping into credit cards to make ends meet. That's not a good scenario and ultimately is not a scenario that would end well. So part of what we're seeing kind of backstopping or enabling consumer spending is an increased amount of credit card use. The other red flag, Keith, is that consumer personal savings rates have gone down below historic averages.


Keith Weinhold (00:23:33) - So we hit an all time high in savings rates during the pandemic when the government sent out stimulus checks and unemployment benefits were enhanced. And candidly, there wasn't a lot consumers could buy. So they socked away a lot of this money post-pandemic. We saw savings rates drop down to almost historically low levels and they haven't come back much up from that. So the two red flags that we really are looking at right now, that could be indicators of trouble ahead for the economy are record level credit card use and lower than average savings rates. And again, both of those suggest that families who are sort of on the margins financially might be tapping into credit cards, might be tapping into their savings to make ends meet. In fact, I read some recent research that suggests that on average, most households have higher credit card debt than they have savings. It's not a great scenario, and this is consistent with many sources citing the fact that between 60 and 70% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Yeah, and it almost doesn't matter how high that paycheck is, which is a little bit counterintuitive.


Keith Weinhold (00:24:43) - I remember doing an interview on CNN years ago when Evander Holyfield mansion was being foreclosed on. It was a $30 million mansion outside of Georgia with two bowling alleys, swimming pool, indoor boxing rinks, basketball courts, the whole nine yards. I had to explain to the reporter that just because you're wealthy doesn't mean you're not living paycheck to paycheck. It's just sometimes there's more zeros to the left of the decimal point. Their cost of living tends to be much higher. So expenses are keeping up with income. All right, Expenses keep up with income. What's been going on in terms of consumer spending, in terms of wage growth, in terms of the GDP being strong has all contributed to inflation. And we had the highest inflation rate in 40 years. Not too long ago, we were up over 9% inflation year over year. And the Federal Reserve has taken very aggressive actions to try and get inflation under control. The primary tool they use is raising the Fed funds rate, which is basically what sets the rates on all short term interest.


Keith Weinhold (00:25:44) - And they've raised it more rapidly and higher than it pretty much any time in history. If you go back to the 80s, they actually raised the Fed funds rate higher because inflation was completely out of control then, but not as quickly as they did this time. So typically what you see is something more like what the Fed did say back in the 2015, 2016 period, where inflation ticked up a little bit. So they raise the Fed funds rate a little and they waited a while to see what kind of impact it would have. Then they raise it a little bit more and it's kind of a step by step process until they feel that inflation is peaked and they can then drop off the Fed funds rate. This time they raised it at higher increments they'd ever done before and much more rapidly. The good news is it does seem to be having its effect. The most recent inflation numbers are around 3% year over year, which is close to the Fed's target rate of 2% year over year. And a lot of the inflation rate that is reported on is housing costs.


Keith Weinhold (00:26:42) - And most of the housing costs are actually rental rates or what the Fed refers to is the rental equivalency. If you have a mortgage. And what we have seen is rental rates have gone back down from ridiculously high, asking prices. A year or so ago, it wasn't unusual to see an asking rent 15% higher than the prior rent rate. And that's in a market where the usual increase is 1 to 4%. So it was just completely off the charts. Those numbers have all come back to normal. And in some markets, we're actually seeing slight declines in year over year rental asking prices. The reason the Ric is bringing rents into the inflation discussion here is because rent and something called owners equivalent rent are a substantial contributor to the. They comprise more than a third of the CPI basket. Exactly right, Keith. And thank you for reminding me why I started this dissertation. The fact is that that decrease in rental costs has not hit the Fed's inflation numbers yet. There's about a full year lag in the housing numbers that the Fed uses in its CPI analysis and what's going on in the real market.


Keith Weinhold (00:27:52) - So if the Federal Reserve does nothing else, these housing costs get caught up. We will see inflation come down a little bit more. A lot of us are hoping that the Fed is done with its increases because of what's happened historically. Historically speaking, if you go all the way back to World War Two, the Federal Reserve not counting this cycle, has raised the Fed funds rate 11 times to get inflation under control. Eight of those times it's waited a little bit too long or it's waited for inflation until inflation got too high and it was a little bit too sticky and they had to overcorrect. And that ultimately steered us into a recession. There were three times once in the 60s, once in the 80s and once in the 90s where the Fed acted proactively to try and get inflation under control. And in those three cases, they were able to steer us into a soft landing and avoid a recession. In this case, they've already admitted they waited too long. They admitted that inflation got much higher than they expected.


Keith Weinhold (00:28:48) - It certainly wasn't as transitory as they'd hoped. So the likelihood is that they've already overcorrected and we will see something of a recession. They may get lucky this time. They may have actually walked the tightrope correctly. And assuming they don't continue with this aggressive course of action, they may have actually managed to work us into a soft landing this time. Yeah, and that is a terrific history lesson that you gave us, Rick. I often like to tell my audience about when you want to predict the future direction of something. I'd like to take history over hunches. It's easy to have a hunch that something's going to go a certain direction. But you look at history. You talked about basically how the Fed was late to identify inflation because they had called it transitory for a while, so they started hiking too late. Now, maybe they've overhyped or maybe they haven't. But if they have, maybe they will need to lower them too quickly. If they don't have that desired soft landing. The economists that follow right now are split about 5050 on whether we'll actually see a recession coming out of this cycle.


Keith Weinhold (00:29:51) - It was more like 8020, looking for a recession just a few months ago. Right. The economy is slowing a little bit. The last jobs report had about 187,000 jobs created, which was a good number, but it was lower than what we've seen in recent reports. So the economy slowing down, but not going to full stop or going into negative terms is an indication that maybe we do escape a recession. Good news, by the way, is even if we do have a recession, the rest of the economic measures that you look at are also strong, that it's very likely it would be a very short and very mild recession, and unemployment probably wouldn't get over about four and a half or 5%. So that's something to keep in mind as you go forward. You talked about history, Keith. I big on that too, history as a predictor of what might happen. Yeah. The other thing that points to a recession is something called a yield curve inversion. And without getting too inside baseball on people, people track the yield on a ten year US Treasury and they track the yield on a two year US Treasury and typically your yield on a short investment like a two year Treasury is lower than your yield on a ten year or longer investment because there's more risk involved in the longer time period and so forth and so on.


Keith Weinhold (00:31:07) - Every now and then, the bond market senses a disruption in the force. Darth Vader is looming over the market and you see these things switch places and suddenly the yield on a ten year US Treasury is lower than the yield on a two year US Treasury, and that's called a yield curve inversion. Now yield curve inversion doesn't cause a recession, but the last seven times we've had one, it's correctly predicted that a recession was coming and this current period we're in is one of the longer and deeper inversions that we've ever seen. So again, if you look at history as a predictor of the future, this yield curve inversion points toward us having a recession at some point before we get through the cycle. And I know yield curves can confuse a lot of people. If you're the listener or the viewer here, make a very long term loan to a friend, well, you'd want to get compensated with a higher interest rate for that higher risk amount than if you made a short term loan to a friend and he was paying you back.


Keith Weinhold (00:32:04) - Tomorrow, you might not charge him much of any interest at all because there's more certainty that you're going to get paid back. But that condition has been inverted, where when you make the long loan to the buddy, you're compensated with a lower interest rate yield. That is what is known as a yield curve inversion. Yeah. And I think yield curve throws people off. If you just think of it in terms of the yields, that probably makes it simpler. But again, if you're looking at recession predictors, these are the two. That I typically look at. And that's kind of important to know if you're going to be investing in the housing market because recessions can have an impact on the housing market. Rick thinks there's a likelihood that the Fed has already overcorrected with too many interest rate increases. If we do have a recession, Rick believes that it's most likely to be mild without many layoffs. Rick and I, we actually seem to agree on a lot of things. We see a lot of things the same way.


Keith Weinhold (00:33:03) - Maybe it would be more interesting for you if we disagreed a bit more to stay up on the latest moves in the real estate market. You can follow Rick Saga on X, formerly known as Twitter. His handle there is simply Rick Saga. Well, Rick made a Darth Vader reference there. And, you know, much like the original Star Wars movie had the sequel, which was called The Empire Strikes Back. You know, that was one sequel that some people liked more than the original. And that is atypical because usually people like the original more. But The Empire Strikes Back was a fantastic sequel, and I think that could happen here next week. Rick and I are back together for part two of two, the sequel. We are probably going to analyze and break down the state of the housing market and the future of investment real estate. And we should go on for twice as long on that as we did for today on the economy. So therefore, next week is kind of like the Empire Strikes Back, although I don't expect that next week Darth Vader is going to cut off Luke Skywalker's hand like what happened in the movie.


Keith Weinhold (00:34:10) - That just wouldn't be proper. And we're clearly not into improprieties around here.


Darth Vader (00:34:18) - You are unwise to lower your defenses.


Keith Weinhold (00:34:23) - Oh, Luke lost his hand this week. Not next week. Well, that's not even the scene where Luke loses his hand, But, hey, that totally worked. So. Getting back to real estate here, you need properties to be an investor. The builders know that higher mortgage rates are a pain point for buyers. Our coaches and I hear a know it too. So we have. Yes. Rubbed salve on the wound 5.75% interest rates, 4.75% or even 2.99%. And at times you're going to have to use the builder's preferred lender in order to get those terms. But really some remarkable Bibles that we've negotiated for you. So take advantage of it since I don't know how long that is going to be around. In fact, I'll even bring up those rate by down terms to Rick Saga next week and get his take to help you out on the cash flow side. We also have access to properties that would make good mid term corporate rentals in the southeastern US midterm rentals.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:27) - They often have higher cash flow than a traditional long term unfurnished rental. For any and all of that, contact your investment coach, you're probably working with one by now. They'll help you shop the marketplace properties, tell you where the real deals are and tell you how to get those improbably low mortgage rates for income properties. Your coach guides you and makes it easy for you If you don't have an investment coach yet, just go to Marketplace. Com slash coach and they're there to help you out until next week I'm your host Keith Winfield. Don't quit your Adrian.


Speaker 4 (00:36:08) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.


Keith Weinhold (00:36:36) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.

Direct download: GREepisode466_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

Why is gold even worth anything in today’s modern world? Isn’t it just a lump of metal? 

In fact, I tell today’s guest that I believe gold is a poor wealth creation vehicle.

Our guest is Dana Samuelson, Founder and Owner of American Gold Exchange. He’s one of the most influential, pedigreed and respected names in the gold industry.

Major central banks have been hoarding gold recently—like Russia and China. Last year, central banks bought the most gold on record. We discuss why.

A recent survey found that only 11% of Americans own gold.

The case for owning gold: no counterparty risk, millennia of value, liquidity, limited supply, it’s like “money insurance”.

The case against gold: storage burden, no yield, few industrial applications, difficult to lever.

Though gold is historically a poor wealth *creation* vehicle, it’s excellent for long-term wealth *storage*. Dana generally agrees with me there.

Most gold that’s been mined in world history still exists today.

Learn how to identify fake gold. 

Dana discusses how you can store your gold.

You effectively pay “closing costs” on bullion. I describe.

We also quickly cover: silver, platinum, and palladium.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

American Gold Exchange:


Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—

text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:


Direct download: GREepisode465_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

Today’s guest, Shawn Finnegan, failed in California real estate investing pre-2008. But in 2019 he listened to GRE, came back, and succeeded.

He now benefits from $2,000 in monthly residual cash flow from 11 Memphis income properties. He wants a fourplex next.

Shawn and his family moved from Los Angeles, CA to Costa Rica where he now lives financially-free.

He’s a former abdominal model, appearing on magazine covers. He invented “The Anchor Gym” home gym system.

By listening to GRE, he had the confidence to invest with our “Financially-Free Beats Debt-Free” mantra.

“Don’t Quit Your Daydream” resonates with him most. 

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

The Anchor Gym:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—

text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:


Direct download: GREepisode464_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

More homeless people have been created due to the housing supply crisis. Homelessness is up 11% since last year, per the WSJ.

The opioid crisis, consumer inflation, and NIMBYism have contributed too.

California has the most homelessness on both a total and per capita basis.

States with higher housing costs have more homeless people.

I share our poll results: “Should we pay to house the homeless?”

Are you a NIMBY? We find out today.

We can increase housing supply with rezoning, construction training, and lower mortgage rates.

The cycle of investor emotions led to wild investing manias. It was tulip bulbs in the 1600s Netherlands and Beanie Babies in the 1990s United States. 

I discuss exactly why “buy low, sell high” is more difficult than it sounds.


The correlation between homelessness and the housing market [00:00:00]

Discusses the relationship between the housing market and the increasing problem of homelessness in America.

Investing manias and lessons from history [00:00:00]

Explores the phenomenon of investing manias and the lessons that can be learned from historical examples.

The tight inventory market conditions and potential solutions [00:04:56]

Lawrence Yun, Chief Economist of the National Association of Realtors, discusses the tight housing market conditions and suggests tax incentives to increase housing supply.

Timestamp 1 [00:10:32]

Affordability of moving to different cities and the proposal of a tax incentive for real estate investors.

Timestamp 2 [00:11:49]

Discussion on the housing supply crisis, mortgage rates, and the homeless population in the US.

Timestamp 3 [00:14:14]

Increase in homelessness in America, reasons behind it, and the correlation between housing prices and homelessness rates.

The impact of high density housing on quality of life and home value [00:21:12]

Discussion on the potential negative effects of building high density housing near single family homes, including reduced home value, increased traffic and noise, and loss of nearby open space.

Alternative solutions to increase housing supply and reduce homelessness [00:23:30]

Exploration of alternative measures to address homelessness, such as trade training for the homeless and relaxing excessive safety requirements in home building.

Giving real change to the homeless [00:25:50]

Encouragement to give directly to homeless shelters or soup kitchens instead of giving small change to individuals on the street, with the concept of "give real change not small change" explained.

Note: The timestamps provided are approximate and may vary slightly depending on the podcast episode.

The Origins of Tulip Mania [00:31:37]

Tulips were introduced to Europe in the 1500s and became a luxury item for the affluent. The cultivation of tulips locally in the Netherlands led to a flourishing business sector.

The Tulip Bubble [00:32:55]

By 1634, tulip mania had swept through the Netherlands, with the demand for tulip bulbs exceeding supply. Prices reached exorbitant levels, and futures contracts were being bought and sold.

Lessons from Tulip Mania [00:37:53]

Tulip mania serves as a model for financial bubbles, with similar cycles observed in other speculative assets like beanie babies, baseball cards, NFTs, and stocks. It highlights the dangers of excess, greed, and speculation without tangible value.

The cycle of investor emotions [00:44:32]

Explanation of the different stages of investor emotions, from optimism to panic, in relation to stock market investing.

The peak of the stock market [00:46:43]

Discussion on the peak of the stock market being the point of maximum financial risk and the difficulty of selling at the right time.

Real estate as a stable investment [00:51:56]

Comparison of real estate investment to speculative bubbles, highlighting the stability and income stream provided by real estate.

Explains how the integration of HOA (Homeowners Association) helps maintain uniformity and cleanliness in the rental property investing world.

Details about the upcoming real estate event [00:38:31]

Promotion of a live event where listeners can learn about new construction fourplexes and have their questions answered in real time.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:


Welcome to Get Rich Education. I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. America’s homeless problem has become FRIGHTENING. I describe how that correlates… with the housing market. 

Then, investing MANIAS. What drives people to spend more for one tulip flower bulb than they would for an entire luxury home? 


And lessons you can learn that’ll benefit you the rest of your life from other manias throughout history. All today, on Get Rich Education.  



Welcome to GRE! From Seaford, DE to Carmel-by-the-Sea, CA and across 188 nations worldwide, you’re listening to one of America’s longest-running and most listened to shows on real estate investing. Along with plenty of ongoing hot takes on wealth mindset and the real estate economy. 


I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. 


See, the crash in the SUPPLY of available American homes is bad and it isn’t just creating more upward prices, it’s a contributor to homelessness. 


Let’s talk about some of the drivers of homelessness, understand the problem a little more, how many homeless people ARE there in America, and then… what can we do about it?


As you’ll soon see, one prominent real estate industry influencer actually suggests that you actually SELL your rental single family homes in order to help serve the homeless. More on that shortly. 


Also, I have the results from a GRE Instagram Poll. The poll question is: “Should we pay to HOUSE the homeless?” 


And the answers that you - the GRE listeners gave… actually surprised me. I’ll give you those super-interesting poll results later, because I have more to explain there.


But first, what IS a homeless person? Let’s define it. I think most anyone knows that since it’s a person without a home, it’s thought of as living on the street.


Really, then, that person might not be homeless but “houseless” in a literal sense. Even if they live in a tent under a bridge, that is then, their home. Though it might be INADEQUATE housing.


More accurately, the unsheltered or undersheltered population could be more apropos.  


Then there’s vagrancy. A vagrant is defined as a person without a settled home OR regular work… who wanders from place to place and lives by begging.


So vagrants are PART of the homeless population then. This all helps DEFINE what we’re discussing.


Now, the lack of available American housing supply - especially the affordable segment - is OBVIOUSLY a big contributor to homelessness.


For example, anymore, how many builders even construct a new-build entry-level home for $200 or 250K? Practically nobody… anywhere.


And just how bad is the supply problem now? Well, the NAR has been tracking housing supply since 1982 and it just hit its lowest level ever this summer - EVER - and that’s in 40+ years of tracking. 


That’s one reason why just last week, it was announced that Warren Buffett is making a big bet on housing by investing in homebuilders.


Now to keep consistent with the same stats I’ve been reporting to you for you, to update that, again 1-and-a-half million available homes is the baseline supply. That’s the long-term “normal” per the FRED Active listing count.


And through last month, it’s still under 650,000. That is STILL a housing SUPPLY crash of 57% from its peak of 1 ½ million.


I want you & I to listen to this upcoming piece together. This recent interview with NAR Chief Economist Lawrence Yun is from the 8th of this month.


Yes, HE is the one that basically wants you to sell your SF rental properties. And he makes his case for an inducement to get you to do this. (Ha!)


He’s not proposing anything COMPLETELY ludicrous. It’s REALLY interesting. Listen closely for that.


This about 5 minutes in length and there’s a lot of material here within this clip - a nutrient dense piece, so I’ve got SO much to say about this when I come back to comment. 


[Yun clip] 


Yeah, the NAR Chief Economist there talking about how, much like I have for years, great opportunity is in the Midwest and Southeastern parts of the US. 


With this greater ability for people to work from anywhere, when people move in from the pricy coasts, it’s sooo affordable to them.


Moving from Manhattan to Cincinnati feels incredibly affordable. 

Moving from San Francisco to St. Louis feels like you’ve upgraded from serfdom to a kingdom.

Moving from Boston to Jacksonville feels like a total life makeover.


That’s why, here at GRE, we’re focused on properties in those INbound destinations. 


Before I continue, especially for those outside the US, I know that it seems a little odd that Ohio and Indiana are in what we call the Midwest when they’re actually in the northeastern quadrant of the nation.


But the fact that they ARE midwestern states is rooted in history and in cultural tradition.


So, getting back some new angles on the housing supply crisis.


Lawrence Yun proposed that a tax incentive be introduced to unleash the inventory of SF rentals from individual REIs. 


And says that there are over 20 million single-family housing units that are rented out. 


If we reduced or canceled the capital gains tax & just got 1% of that inventory on the market, he states that that would help.


Well, yeah, but even that then would only put about 200,000 units of the market - and they’d get snatched up so fast.


Now, if mortgage rates come down to say, 5%, it would unleash both housing demand AND supply. 


Both - like Lawrence Yun says. So it’s not apparent that that would help this shortage, if both demand and supply go up.


In a nation of about one-third of a BILLION people now - that’s how I like to express it this year - America now has one-third of a billion people… also known as 333 million - how many do you think are classified as homeless?


As you think about that - as you think about how many of America’s 333 million Americans are homeless, this homeless population figure that I’m about to share with you is from HUD and it’s through last year, so it’s their latest year-end figure. 


And I’ll tell ya, it’s hard to believe this number. The Department of Housing and Urban Development states that about 582,000 Americans are experiencing homelessness.


Now, how HUD does this is that their number is a snapshot of the homeless population as of a single night at the end of January each year. 


The total number of people who experience homelessness for SOME PERIOD each year will be higher than that.


I just did the math and then that means that just 1 in every 572 Americans are homeless. C’mon. Do you believe that? Only one in every 572 Americans are homeless?


I might believe that it’s something like more than 1 in 200. What are your thoughts?


Even HUD would probably concede that there are shortcomings in that stat and that it’s only a starting point.


And over the last decade, according to HUD, the homeless population is little changed… apparently until just this past year.


Homelessness is surging in America. The number of people experiencing homelessness in the US has increased 11% so far this year over 2022. That would be the biggest jump by far in equivalent government records beginning in 2007.


Now this 11% homeless jump is according to a WSJ analysis of hundreds of smaller & local agencies. 


Most  agencies say the alarming rise is because of the lack of affordable housing and rental units, and the ongoing opioid crisis.


Inflation is part of that affordable housing problem. Inflation widens the disparity between the haves and have-nots.


To cut some slack to census-type of surveying, homelessness can be hard to measure. Some live on skid row, some live in the woods, some homeless people live in their cars. 


Some aren’t interested in being counted. Others are essentially invisible.

I mean, if someone’s between jobs and needs to couch surf at their aunt and uncle's place for three months, are they homeless or not? So, to be sure, there’s a lot of leeway in those numbers.


One in 572 as homeless - that should just be a minimum - a starting point in my opinion.


Now, homelessness broken down by STATE is really interesting.


California at 171,000, has the most of any state, more than double of next-most New York, and then Florida is third.


But let’s break that down by rate - on a per capita basis. So… think of this as the highest CONCENTRATION of homeless:


Washington DC has 65 homeless per 10,000 people. That’s not really a state though, so…


#1 on a per capita basis is STILL California, with 44 per 10,000. So California leads in the nation in homeless on both bases then - both absolute and relative.


The second highest rate is Vermont. 

Third Oregon

Fourth Hawaii

Fifth is New York

And then numbers 6 through 10 on the most homeless per capita are Washington, Maine, Alaska, Nevada, and Delaware.


Now, strictly anecdotally. You’ve probably seen just what I’ve seen in the last year-plus - more visible homeless people in your city and other cities.


The state with the FEWEST homeless of all 50 states is Mississippi - and see, housing is quite affordable there. MS is one of the most affordable states for housing. 


There is at least SOME correlation between your cost of housing and homelessness.


Recently on our Instagram page, and the handle there is easy to remember - it’s @getricheducation - if you want to participate in future polls, we ran a poll on homelessness.


Here is the poll question that we ran - and I’d like you to think about your answer to this too.


“Should we pay to house the homeless?” 


That’s the question. 


And in polling, the way that the question is phrased, of course, can skew your answer. 


See, if instead, we phrased it as, “Should the government house the homeless?” you might have more ‘yes’ answers - even though it’s the same question - because you FUND the government. 


But the question as we phrased it: “Should we pay to house the homeless?” - it also showed a photo of vagrants on a street curb under the question.


Here we the results, which surprised me, to: 

Should we pay to house the homeless?


Those answering “Yes” were just 6%

The no’s were 45%

But we also had a third option: “It’s complicated”. 48% answered with that option.


So again, just 6% of you said we should pay to house the homeless and 45% said “no”. “48% said it’s complicated”.


In a way, that makes sense to me since we have a largely entrepreneurial, self-made type of audience. I thought that might have happened.


But what surprised me is in how emphatic it was. It was a landslide. 7 to 8 TIMES as many of you said we should not pay for the homeless as those that said we should.


Well, the reason that I added - and I’m the one that ran the poll myself - they’re quick to do. I added the paying to house the homeless “It’s complicated” option because it IS complicated… that WAS the most popular answer.


I mean, why should you go to work and pay to house a stranger that has no income because he or she doesn’t want to work?


But what if they’re disabled and they can kinda work but not really work… or a zillion other complications. 


Substance abuse is obviously a big problem that keeps homeless people homeless… and there’s a substantial thought paradigm that says, if they’re an abuser, then why would I pay for THEIR housing?


Substance abuse is just one reason that there is a population that’s VOLUNTARILY homeless. They don’t want to have to comply with a group home’s ban on substances. 


I wanted to address the homeless problem somewhat today, because here we are on Episode 463 of a real estate show and this is the most that we’ve even discussed it.


I think the perspective it gives you is that it helps you be grateful for what you’ve got. 


But it’s abundance mentality here. You can be grateful for what you have and at the same time, grow your means.


What else would help with more housing supply which would also move us toward mitigating the homeless problem?


Well, we’ve already discussed a number of them so I’ll only go in depth with some fresh angles here.


Obviously, more homebuilding. We’ve done episodes on how 3D printed homes and shipping container homes are not quick, easy answers. Tiny homes might be but then you could get into a zoning density problem again.


Just last week, my assistant brought me this Marketwatch article that reported that the average American home size is shrinking just a little & that often times, new-build houses tend to be a little closer together.


That’s what gets us into relaxing zoning requirements. But you know something, OK, this is going to be interesting. 


This plays into NIMBYism. Not In My Backyard: communities saying that they don’t want high-density housing built next to them. 


Now, I think that there are a lot of critics of NIMBYism. But the criticism comes from people that live far out of that area and aren’t affected.


Let me just play a fun little experiment with you here. Let me paint a picture of a fictitious life for you and just… place yourself there.


Say that you live in a nice single-family home, with a quarter acre lot. It’s not a sprawling estate but you’ve got a good measure of privacy that way.


You’re in a SFH, quarter-acre lot and two car garage. That is classic suburbia.


And… just a hundred yards away from your home there’s a big, wide-open field where you walk your dog and use as a little makeshift golf driving range or whatever. Nice open space nearby.


Say you’ve got a fairly idyllic life here. It’s always been this way since you bought the home years ago.


Suddenly, in your neighborhood of all SFHs, you learn that they want to build a bunch of fourplexes in the nearby lot where you used to throw tennis balls to your dog.


What can that do to your quality of life & your home’s value, now that a bunch of new fourplexes and eightplexes were built nearby?


It reduces your home’s value because there are less valuable, high density properties nearby.


It also increases the amount of traffic & even noise in your neighborhood. Now you can’t use that nearby park anymore - it’s been all-built up with these higher-density apartments.


So, let me go back and ask - point blank - did you really want all those new high-density developments near your home?


If that made you uncomfortable, that’s NIMBYism. So it’s quite natural to evoke that feeling type. You’re just a human being.


How else can we increase housing supply to help reduce homelessness?


NOT with rent control. Over time, capping the amount of rent that a LL can charge gives property owners no incentive to improve their property and neighborhoods end up dilapidated.


We need more training for tradesman and laborers. How about training the homeless for that? But then someone’s got to pay for that training.


Another measure that’s become ridiculous is that we’ve gotta relax these excessive safety requirements in homebuilding. Now, some safety is good.


But when every single home - entry-level and all needs to have fire-rated shingles and fired-rated doors and GFCI outlets and smoke detectors in every room and carbon monoxide detectors all over the place, sheesh! Well, that raises the cost of housing for everyone.


In some earthquake-prone areas, you’ve got to have seismic restraining straps on your water heater or you can’t even sell your home. Do you know how big of an earthquake it would take to damage your water heater like that?


And an excessive safety PROPONENT might say, yeah, but did you hear about that one family that died ten years ago that would have lived if they had carbon monoxide detectors?


Well, the counterargument to that is, yeah, but what about all the homeless people that were exposed to the elements and died in the cold because they couldn’t AFFORD the more basic housing, the prices of which have escalated for all this excessive safety stuff.


Are you saying a middle class person’s life is worth more than a poor, homeless person’s life? That’s the counterargument. 


Again, some safety is good. But we’ve gone overboard in too many places - in housing & beyond.


Rising housing costs keep people homeless. A few weeks ago, I did that episode about escalating insurance costs.


I now own some properties that have extremely low mortgage rates and the insurance has gone up to the point where I pay more in monthly escrow expenses than I do principal & interest. 


But, hey. I’m not homeless, and if you’re listening to this, neither are you.


So when it comes to helping the homeless in the short-term, that campaign called, “Give real change, not small change.” - that really resonates with me.


Don’t give 5 bucks to a vagrant on the corner. That just keeps them showing up at that corner, plus they’re going to spend your 5 bucks on a cheap bottle of Monarch vodka.


Instead, if you’re going to give, give to a homeless shelter or soup kitchen. 


That’s what’s meant by “Give real change, not small change.” And that’s something actionable.


Coming up next, investing MANIAS. How wild it gets - paying more for a tulip flower than a SFH, shooting and killing someone over a Beanie Baby toy… and then I’m going to wrap it all up with what all this has to do with the cycle of your investor emotions.


Around here, we don’t run ads for the Swiffer. This week’s sponsors that support the show are people that I’ve personally done real estate business with myself and have benefited from. 


Ridge Lending Group specializes in INVESTMENT property loans in nearly all 50 states. Start your prequalification at: 


Then, for super-passive real estate returns, check out Freedom Family Investments. Right now, what you can do, is just text “FAMILY” to 66866.


I’m Keith Weinhold. You’re listening to Get Rich Education.


Welcome back to the GRE Podcast. I’m your host and my name is Keith Weinhold. 


If you’ve got a friend or family member that you think would benefit from the knowledge drops here on the show, you can simply tell them to grab the free Get Rich Education mobile app.


That’s a convenient option for listening every week for both iOS and Android.


Today’s topics of homelessness and investing manias could very well bring a new audience here, so… 


A little more about my backstory. I’m from PA but got my real estate comeuppance in Anchorage, Alaska of all places & grew out nationally & internationally from there. I had humble beginnings and wasn’t born anywhere near wealthy. I had to figure out how to build it myself.


But see, if I were born wealthy, I wouldn’t have learned how to build it, and then I wouldn’t be of much help to you. Likewise, if you’re building it yourself, you’ll be able to help others too.


BTW, I was born in the same PA town as Taylor Swift. 


Though she & I don’t have much ELSE in common, I guess that she & I are both best-known for using a microphone.


Though I think that I’m about as likely to start using this microphone to sing into your ears like Taylor Swift does… as Taylor is to launch a real estate investing show.


For hundreds of years, the tulip has been one of the most-loved flowers in the Netherlands. It’s an enduring icon - as synonymous with the country as clogs, windmills, bicycles, and cheese. The tulip has a long and storied history - including the infamous shortage in the 1600s known as “tulip mania”. If you’re someone that has even a fleeting interest in investing, you should at least know what this is.


Tulips first appeared in Europe in the 1500s, arriving from the spice trading routes… and that lent this sense of exoticism to these imported flowers that looked like no other flower native to the continent.

It’s no surprise, then, that tulips became a luxury item destined for the gardens of the affluent. 

According to The Library of Economics and Liberty, “it was deemed a proof of bad taste in any man of fortune to be without a collection of [tulips].” Hmmm.

Well, following the affluent, the merchant MIDDLE classes of Dutch society sought to emulate their wealthier neighbors and also demanded tulips.

So to start out with, it was purchased as a status symbol for the sole reason that it was expensive.

But at the same time, tulips were known to be notoriously fragile, and would die without careful cultivation. In the early 1600s, professional cultivators of tulips began to refine techniques to grow and produce the flowers locally in the Netherlands. They established a flourishing business sector that persists to this day.

By 1634, tulipmania swept through the Netherlands. The Library of Economics and Liberty writes, “The rage among the Dutch to possess tulip bulbs was so great that the ORDINARY INDUSTRY of the country was neglected, and the population, even to its lowest dregs, embarked in the tulip trade. Now, everyone’s in - rich to poor.

It’s a little hard to say for sure how much people paid for tulips. 

But Scottish journalist Charles Mackay, wrote an extremely popular 1841 book - you’ve probably heard of this book - it’s called the Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds…

It does give us some points of reference such that the best of tulips cost upwards of $1 million in today’s money (but a lot of bulbs traded in the $50,000–$150,000 range). 

By 1636, the demand for the tulip trade was so large that regular markets for their sale - like a little Dow Jones Industrial Average - got established on the Stock Exchange of Amsterdam, in Rotterdam, Haarlem, and other towns.

It was at that time that PROFESSIONAL TRADERS got in on the action - that’s all that some people do now - is trade tulips… and everybody appeared to be making money simply by possessing some of these rare bulbs. 

Dutch speculators at the time spent incredible amounts of money on bulbs that only produced flowers for a Week—many companies were formed with the SOLE PURPOSE of trading tulips. 

To everyone, at the time, it seemed that the price could only go up forever.

Pretty soon, demand for tulips EXCEEDED THE AVAILABLE SUPPLY of tulips by so much that people were into buying futures contracts, basically saying, I’ll pay you this much money TODAY for a tulip that you provide to me in 3 years.

By the last 1630s, these futures contracts were like a crack that appeared in the price runup. Demand began to wane when people were just buying a token for a future tulip that hadn’t even started growing yet. 

People felt like they weren’t buying anything tangible anymore. That’s one factor that helped create an oversupply of tulips in the market and started depressing the prices. Supply caught up with - and exceeded - demand.

A large part of this rapid decline was driven by the fact that people had purchased bulbs on credit, hoping to repay their loans when they sold their bulbs for a profit. But once prices started to drop, holders were forced to sell their bulbs at any price and to declare bankruptcy in the process.

So people had begun buying tulips with leverage, using margined derivatives contracts to buy more than they could afford. But as quickly as the run-up began, confidence was dashed. By the end of 1637 is when prices began to fall and never recovered.


And the bubble burst.

Buyers announced that they could not pay the high price previously agreed upon for bulbs, and that made the market fall apart. 

While it wasn’t actually a devastating occurrence for the entire nation’s economy, it did undermine social expectations. The event destroyed relationships built on trust and people’s willingness and ability to pay.

It’s been said that “the wealthiest merchants to the poorest chimney sweeps jumped into the tulip fray, buying bulbs at high prices and selling them for even more.”

Well, this is what can happen - today it happens with financialization and nothing real backing up purchases.

Tulipmania is a model for the general cycle of a financial bubble. That’s what happened with Dutch tulips.

Now, here in more recent times, similar cycles have been observed in the price of Beanie Babies, baseball cards - I got caught up in the baseball cards as a kid, owning more than 100,000 baseball cards at one time, also non-fungible tokens (NFTs), and shipping stocks.




The example of tulipmania is now used as a parable for other speculative assets, such as cryptocurrencies today or dotcom stocks from around the year 2000.

So, when you hear someone likening an investment to a Dutch tulip bulb, now you’ll know what they’re talking about. It’s a symbol of excess, greed, and FOMO.

But there has been a good bit of more modern scholarship that tells you that tulip mania did indeed occur in the 1600s Netherlands. But that the tale has been exaggerated and it’s something that the upper classes of society were mostly involved in.

Now, that’s the Dutch tulip bubble. But for a more modern-day parable about an investing mania, there’s a new movie about the rise & fall of BEANIE BABIES that’s on Apple TV+.

These were little stuffed, plush toy animals that became more popular among adults than children.

The rise and fall of Beanie Babies—toys that people mistakenly thought would make them rich. The movie is called “The Beanie Bubble”. 

It’s a MOSTLY TRUE account of the lovable toys’ boom and bust in the ’90s -  comparable to the meme stock frenzies that took place during the Covid-19 pandemic.

These $5 pellet-stuffed plush toys had astronomical appreciation estimates: Stripes the Tiger, released in 1996, was predicted by collectors to surge from $5 to $1,000 by 2008. 

Forecasts like these were so enticing that one dad invested his kids’ college funds in Beanie Babies, thinking he’d resell them later for a hefty profit.

At the height of the frenzy, people were ruining relationships and committing felonies to get their hands on some of these sacks of fuzz.

  • Border officials confiscated more than 8,000 smuggled Beanie Babies at a US–Canada border crossing in 1998.

  • A West Virginia man shot and killed a former coworker in 1999 after an argument partly about $150 worth of Beanie Babies.

  • That same year, a divorcing couple couldn’t agree on how to split up their collection, so the judge made them divvy up the toys in person, right on the courtroom floor.

How did that all happen?

Barely anyone cared about Beanie Babies when a company called Ty Inc. launched them in 1994. Stores only got lines out the door once the toy’s creator, now-billionaire Ty Warner, began pulling strings to juice demand. Here’s what Warner did. OK, so here’s how you induce people into a speculative bubble.

  • He refused to stock Beanie Babies at Toys R Us and Walmart. Instead he created an illusion of rarity by only selling them at small toy stores and independent shops.

  • Even if you did find a retailer, every store’s supply of Beanie Babies was limited to 36 of each animal, so inventory restocks drew a crowd.

This, combined with Warner’s decision to start “retiring” certain animals in 1995, created artificial scarcity and a mass panic to stock up on Beanie Babies. 

Soon, an aggressive resale market was born, replete with magazines and blogs and even trade shows for these Beanie Babies.

One woman’s guide to the secondary Beanie Babies market got so popular that she was selling 650,000 copies per month and, on many days, she did two or three radio interviews before her kids woke up for school. Ty Inc. later gave her an award for boosting sales.

At Peak Beanie mania, Ty Inc. and legions of speculators actually made hordes of money:

  • The stuffed animals accounted for 6% of eBay’s sitewide sales in 1997 and 10% in 1998. Beanies averaged a resale value of $30—six times their retail price—but rare ones, like the Princess Diana bear, went for hundreds or thousands of dollars (and now you can find one online for $15 bucks).

  • Ty Inc. hit $1.4 billion in sales in 1998, which is what Mattel grossed in Barbie dolls in 1995. At the end of the year, Ty Warner gave all ~250 employees holiday bonuses equal to their annual salaries.

But most regular people didn’t sell their Beanie Babies at their peak price. And unfortunately for them, the hype subsided. Anticipating a drop in interest as more kids reached for Pokémon and Furbies, Ty Inc. announced it would stop making Beanie Babies at the end of 1999, and that poked a hole in collectors’ this-will-never-not-be-popular mentality and that sent demand plummeting.

There were no underlying fundamentals to Beanie Babies’ value. That’s all that I’ve got on that speculative craze.


So let’s review how this happened with both speculative crazes - Dutch tulips and Beanie Babies:

  • Investors lose track of rational expectations.

  • Psychological biases lead to a massive upswing in the price of an asset or a sector.

  • A positive-feedback cycle keeps inflating prices.

  • And soon, investors realize that they are holding an irrationally-priced asset.

  • Prices collapse due to a massive sell-off, and an overwhelming majority go bankrupt.

Now, much stock market investing is based off of buy low and sell high mentality. And stock investors can get caught up in similar crazes. 


But because many stocks are tied to productive companies, the stock investor deals with smaller bubbles. A lot of times, the stock price can double, triple, or even 10X even though that company is not even profitable.

Buy low & sell high. Well, that sounds easy. But why is this harder to do than it sounds? It's called the cycle of investor emotions.


It starts here with… optimism. Because you HEAR about 10% stock returns or people making money with Dutch tulips or Beanie babies. 


Let’s say that you aren't fully invested in the stock market. But some friends are, and they're achieving small gains.


Then comes excitement. The market is now up some more. Hey, what’s in motion tends to stay in motion.


More friends are telling you how much money they're "making". 


You're soon experiencing a full-blown case of FOMO—Fear Of Missing Out.


The next stage is the Thrill you feel. So you jump into the stock market fully, rationalizing with something like, "Hey, I'm a momentum investor". Sounds pretty good, I guess.


Now that you’re in, it actually feels fantastic to you for a short time. You figure that some days, you're making more from stocks than your job. Winning activates dopamine. 


Dopamine is a brain chemical that’s known as the “feel-good” hormone. It gives you a sense of pleasure. It also gives you the motivation to DO SOMETHING when you're feeling the pleasure. 


So then, you add MORE shares… at an elevated price until you are FULLY invested. Now everyone is "making money", even your Uber driver.


The next stage is Euphoria - The peak! As you can see, this is the Point of Maximum Financial Risk. 


OK, now, remember the simplicity of “buy low, sell high”?


Well then, savvy stock investors should now be SELLING here in my example - at the HEIGHT.


Now be “selling”? Leaving the party at its crescendo? Stopping the dopamine flow? Yes, exactly… and THAT’S why it’s so difficult. 


What happens after the stock market peak? Overbought, with bloated price-to-earnings ratios, the market soon drops 10% from its recent high. 


That’s what’s known as a correction - a drop of 10% or more. Now you feel a little ANXIETY. Your dopamine flow is stifled.


Next, you tell yourself, "I shouldn't be worried because I'm a long-term investor." It's down 15%. You're experiencing DENIAL & FEAR.


Now you're checking the Robinhood app almost hourly to see if it will recover.


Next, comes Desperation & Panic - Stocks are down 20%, that’s the definition of a bear market. You're devoting more mindshare to this each day than what's healthy.


Then there’s Capitulation - Down 30%, you finally surrender to a FEAR of FURTHER LOSS. You’re getting so sick of months of losing. You finally do it and cash out your stocks into a safe money market fund. Now you’re out.


And you rationalize and justify doing this because you tell yourself, "You know, at least when I wake up tomorrow, I'll know that I haven't lost money AGAIN. And THAT gives me certainty.” 


The next stage in the Cycle of Investor Emotions is Despondency - You realize that what you've done is the polar opposite of successful investing. It’s complete. You’ve now bought high… and then sold low. 


Next, stocks completely bottom out. But this is actually the Point of Maximum Financial Opportunity. Instead, you should be buying.


But you can’t. Because you’re experiencing the next investor stage - Depression. You're so full of contempt for the situation that the idea of actually buying at bargain-basement levels again is simply inconceivable. You've been burnt badly.


Then, there’s Hope & Relief - The market has begun ticking up after the crash. It soon should be clear that share prices are FAIRLY VALUED again. 


But you don't buy the recovery story. You wait until enough price growth occurs that the confidence and Optimism stage is felt again before you’ll even consider getting back in and buying.


And the entire pattern repeats.


That's the “cycle of investor emotions”. There's an average of 3-and-a-half years between each stock bear market, BTW.


Of course, we've been kind to call this all “investing”. It's more like speculating.


But here's the real problem—most investors THINK they're better than average stock pickers, so they keep playing this game. This effect has a name. It’s called illusory superiority.


It's like how at least 70% of people think they're better than average drivers, despite the statistical impossibility.


Even professional money managers fall prey to this! Fewer than 10% of active U.S. stock funds manage to beat THEIR benchmarks.


The renowned British economist and value investor Benjamin Graham once said: "The investor's chief problem—even his worst enemy—is likely to be HIMSELF."

Well, as real estate investors, we largely SIDESTEP the cycle of investor emotions for two main reasons.


Returns are more stable.


Real estate, we sidestep this emotional roller coaster. Not only do we have stable prices, but appreciation is one of just 5 ways that you’re simultaneously paid.


RE also has monthly income. Dutch tulips or Beanie Babies don’t pay you a durable monthly income stream. They don’t provide an income stream at all.


And finally, RE is a REAL asset that fulfills a REAL human need.


I hope that you enjoyed this journey through speculative bubbles today and how they play into human psychology and investor emotions.


Go ahead and tell a friend about Get Rich Education.


If you’ve got a friend or family member that you think would benefit from the knowledge drops here on the show, you can simply tell them to grab the free Get Rich Education mobile app.


That’s a convenient option for listening every week for both iOS and Android.


My name’s Keith Weinhold and I’ll be back with you right here… next week. Don’t Quit Your Daydream!

Direct download: GREepisode463_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

Get our free "Don't Quit Your Daydream" Letter. Text 'GRE' to 66866.

Home prices fell three times since 1975. We explore the reasons why.

The homeownership rate is 66% today. (The long-term average is 65%.) I expect the homeownership rate to fall due to low affordability, which will increase renter households.

If you have dollars in a savings account that pays 5% interest, I describe why you’re losing prosperit.

Our Investment Coach, Aundrea & I discuss the state of the real estate market.

Then we discuss our upcoming live event for new-build Utah fourplexes. They produce cash flow, have great tenant amenities and come with built-in equity. This area is extremely fast-growing: Register here.


National Home Prices Fall and Causes [00:00:01]

Discussion on the historical trends of national home prices, the causes of price falls, and the impact of the 2008 global financial crisis.

Housing Affordability Crisis [00:00:50]

Exploration of the current state of housing affordability and the impact of the pandemic on home prices.

Upcoming Real Estate Event [00:01:44]

Announcement of an informative live real estate event that listeners are invited to join.

The current state of housing affordability [00:11:45]

Discussion on the challenges faced by first-time homebuyers due to higher prices, mortgage rates, and lending requirements.

Homeownership rate trends [00:13:11]

Analysis of the historical homeownership rates, including the impact of aging population and low affordability on the rate.

Future outlook for homeownership rate [00:19:40]

Prediction of a decline in the homeownership rate below the current 66% due to poor affordability and increasing number of renters.

Rental Market Overview [00:24:10]

Discussion on the current state of the rental market, including cash flowing properties, stable prices, and limited inventory.

Demand for Investment Opportunities [00:26:14]

Exploration of the demand from investors who are looking to invest their existing equity and the regions they are interested in, such as the Southeast and Midwest.

New Build Income Properties [00:28:14]

Introduction of a provider offering new construction fourplexes in the Intermountain West, discussing the market growth, population demographics, and amenities of the properties.

The opportunity for new build properties in a fast growth area [00:34:59]

Discussion on the benefits of investing in new construction properties in a rapidly growing area with good cash flow.

The role of HOA in maintaining property values [00:36:04]

Explains how the integration of HOA (Homeowners Association) helps maintain uniformity and cleanliness in the rental property investing world.

Details about the upcoming real estate event [00:38:31]

Promotion of a live event where listeners can learn about new construction fourplexes and have their questions answered in real time.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Join our Utah fourplexes live event:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—

text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:



Complete episode transcript:


Welcome to GRE! I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. Historically, just how often DO national home prices fall… and what causes it? 


Then, learn more about how TODAY’S housing affordability is absolutely awful. Then, our informative live real estate event that you’re invited to join. All today, on Get Rich Education.



Welcome to GRE! From Pennsylvania’s MONongahela River to Mono Lake, CA and across 188 nations worldwide. I’m Keith Weinhold and you are listening to our one big weekly show. This is Get Rich Education.


"Real estate never goes down." 


Yeah, a handful of people actually told me those five exact words in the mid-2000s decade. “Real estate never goes down.”


Of course, 2008's Global Financial Crisis (GFC) and Mortgage Meltdown proved them ALL wrong.


And ya know what, I've never heard one single person utter those words since!


Late last year, national home prices took just a small dip for a few months on a m-o-m basis. That’s not something that often happens though.


So as minor as THAT was, that’s the event that actually precipitated the creation of this segment of our episode.


There’s a colorful chart that provides a… terrific visual of the month-over-month shifts in US home prices, per Case-Shiller, dating back to 1975. And if you’re one of our “Don’t Quit Your Daydream” letter subscribers, you got to see it last week.


Winston Churchill said, "The farther backward you can look, the farther FORward you can see." 


I don’t know that I’ve contributed anything quite that proverbial to the world on that exact subject yet. 


I just say that when it comes to future expectations, I favor "history over hunches".


So, before we look at WHY home prices historically fall, first of all, why go back to 1975 when we’re looking at a history of home prices. Why that slice of time, 1975 to present?


Well, that’s almost 50 years. It’s two generations, so it stops just short of your grandfather’s generation which was back when the dollar was still pegged to gold.


Here's what we can we learn from almost 50 years of home price history on a relatively untethered dollar:

Nominal home prices usually rise, but not always. This is NOT inflation-adjusted. That’s the first takeaway. Of the 500 to 600 little rectangles, that’s how many months there have been since 1975, they’re nearly all blue, which means prices rose.

Before we center on the red areas, which is when & where prices dipped…

The next thing I can tell you is that it shows that home prices are remarkably stable.

A SEASONAL fluctuation is quite apparent. Year after year, home price growth is weaker in winter and stronger in summer.

But do you know how many times national home prices have dipped since 1975? Any idea?

It is… three. Three periods of falling prices in the last… 48 years. Those periods were the erstwhile Global Financial Crisis period from 2007 to 2011, then that tiny dip that occurred in the last few months of last year. 

That was due to a late pandemic slowdown.

Before I tell you about the other time, that third time, that so few discuss, let me tell ya, the 2008 GFC went deep red. Most markets had losses of 20% or more.

I WAS an active RE investor at that time.

And that downturn was caused by irresponsible lending, rampant speculation, and an OVERsupply of housing. That’s well documented.

Look around today, and we don’t have any of those conditions today. Today it’s tough lending standards, no wild speculation, and oppositely, as you know, it’s that STARK UNDERsupply of housing.

But few people seem to know about an earlier attrition in prices. It was a mild early '90s downturn. It was really small, just a percent or two per year in a lot of places, but it persisted for more than 5 years.

I think a lot of people DON’T KNOW about that small early ‘90s downturn, that’s why before the Global Financial Crisis, they said what we all know to be false, “Real estate never goes down.”

The start of the ‘90s. That’s before my time - I mean, I was alive but not old enough to be investing, so I had to do some research about what caused prices to circle the drain just a little.

And to boil it down, it occurred for two main reasons - it was from defaults created by high household debt and also, adjustable-rate mortgages kicking in, making those homeowners pay higher rates - and some couldn’t pay it.

So as we look back like Winston Churchill to get lessons from history, I like to look at today’s landscape and see if we have any of those two early ‘90s conditions.

High household debt? Well, rather, really this era’s aberration is the opposite condition. Today it’s households sitting on a lot of cash and equity.

And then the second reason for the early ‘90s price dip - adjustable rate mortgages kicking in. 

Well, that is affecting the commercial space, not the residential side, where homeowners have now been long accustomed to FIXED rate debt. 

Now, before we look into the future of home prices - and I’ve got some good stats there…

To summarize, the top takeaways from 48 years of looking at monthly HP growth are that:

  • Prices typically rise, not always

  • Prices are remarkably stable

  • Prices rise more in the summer than the winter

  • And that historically, let’s distill it down to three - three chief culprits for falling prices are an OVERsupply of homes, irresponsible lending, and a distressed borrower

Now, with housing, people tended to use the word “uncertainty” a lot - really, constantly, ever since the pandemic began in 2020. 

Now, I think that we can finally say that the clouds have begun to clear. Though, of course, we never have 100% clairvoyance.

Most everyone is confident that the majority of interest rate hikes are done, inflation has come down, mortgage rates are back at historic NORMS right now actually, and home prices are rising at historic NORMS again too. 

You have all this money sloshing around the economy that is still fueling consumer wealth from the pandemic.

All this money sloshing around AGAINST a low housing supply, and with more economic certainty. 

All this really has a lot of people more bullish than I’ve seen in a couple years.

Homebuilder confidence is really surging right now.

And looking into the next year, more and more analysts are now forecast increasing national home prices.


Fannie Mae recently revised their forecast upward to 3.9% appreciation for THIS YEAR.


CoreLogic now expects prices 4.3% higher from June of this year to of next year. And Zillow expects 6.3% price appreciation over this same time period.


And, our core investor areas have just kept climbing and really didn’t experience last year’s slowdown at all.


I guess this isn’t necessarily good news, right? The bad news might be that there’s no price BREAK.


Higher RATES still didn’t break the market.


Now, I’ve heard some analysts at real estate research firms speculate that if INTEREST RATES fall in the next year with all these other favorable conditions that 10% HPA is possible.


I’d say, that’s speculative alright. It’s so hard to predict future interest rates that I’m not willing to do it.


And like I’ve shared with you here, which is contrary to what people USED to believe, it’s that:


Mortgage rates really don’t have that much to do with home prices!


So when it comes to home prices over the next couple years, I think that the most commonsense expectation is slow price growth and stability.


Now, just wait until you see what’s happening with the homeownership rate today. I want to share that with you shortly.


Before we get back to RE, let’s Zoom out for a moment and look at the broader investing landscape while we’re here at mid-quarter.


Bitcoin is getting less volatile than stocks. That’s one trend lately. Another way to say that though, is that bitcoin prices are in a period of historic stagnation.


Gold has fallen from the $2,000 an ounce mark that it touched recently.


Oil prices have been on a multi-month tear, but you know, when you look at it on an inflation-adjusted basis, which so many people forget to do, oil at under $100 a barrel feels inexpensive.


Elsewhere in investing, some online savings accounts have hit the 5% yield mark.


That might sound good when you consider that inflation has backed off. 


But as most agree that the CPI is understated, if you think that the true diminished purchasing power of the dollar is 5% and your savings account rate is 5%, aren’t you at least treading water?


Well, first of all, just treading water means that you aren’t going anywhere or growing. 


But you’re not even treading water. Because don’t forget that your interest earnings on savings accounts get taxed. 


So it’s good to hold some liquidity - always. But you’re likely underwater with a 5% savings account in this era.


Yes, on your interest earnings, you’re taxed at your earned income tax rate, between 10 and 37%. Say that you’re in the 32% tax bracket. 


Well then, real inflation is 5% and your 5% savings account only yielded 3.4%. 


On an inflation-adjusted basis, even if you happen to have a savings account with a yield that high, your inflation-adjusted return is negative 1.6%.


That’s why, here at GRE, we typically invest in vehicles that target returns VASTLY exceeding both inflation and taxes.


As much as that might hurt, you know who today’s real estate market is actually really bad for? Even worse for the saver that isn’t even treading water.


It is downright AWFUL out there for those wannabe first-time homebuyers.


They are looking at this triple-headed monster of higher prices, higher mortgage rates, and stringent lending requirements. And then if they overcome ALL that, they’ve got to compete for that tight supply.


It’s made affordability for people in THAT position really awful. 


In a lot of markets, a starter home is $400K. With your 20% down payment plus closing costs, that’s $100,000 out of pocket, right upfront, as well as your ongoing monthly payment… all for an asset that doesn’t generate income when it’s your HOME.


Well, that’s an insurmountable hurdle for a lot of people.


This low affordability moves people out of the homebuyer class and adds them to the ranks of the RENTER class. 


Well, there's our opportunity as landlords.


You aren’t preying on them. You’re risking your capital to provide good housing for them. 


But curiously, the HOMEOWNERSHIP RATE is actually just a touch higher than usual right now, despite souring affordability.


So, let’s take a look at this. And then I’ll break down what it means to you as well as where we’re headed.


Since 1965, the average homeownership since 65% and currently, it’s 66%, running a little high.


BTW, homeownership peaked at 69% in 2004—that's back when you could outright lie about your income, job, and assets, and still get a mortgage. Many people did just that. NINJA loans.


When you hear the acronym, NINJA loans, what that stands for is no income, no job, or assets.


Well, you either rent your home or you own your home. It’s one or the other. 


So then, today's 66% homeownership rate means that everyone else, 34%, are renters. 


When the homeownership rate drops, then you’ve got more renters.


The low point for homeownership was in 2016 at 63%. 


It’s grown since then, and you might wonder… how in the heck is homeownership above average today in the face of this low affordability? How is it 66%.

Well, there’s a few reasons for that and it’s not always intuitive. America’s population keeps AGING. 

And that skews figures… because homeowners tend to BE older.

Secondly, incumbents - those that already GOT their home have really low, affordable payments. They’re not going to lose their home & become renters. 

80% of borrowers have a mortgage rate under 5%. You’re really happy to stay put when your mortgage rate begins with a “4” or less - and you can also keep making the payment. 

It’s a payment amount that does not rise with inflation.

That introduces a lag effect in the stats. It’ll be a little while until this low affordability gets reflected in a lower HO rate.

There’s a low FORECLOSURE rate, under 1%. Americans can afford their payments and they have the motivation to keep making them.

Now, over on YouTube, I shared a great map with you, the Homeownership Rate by state and broke that down. Join us over there. On YouTube, we’re called “Get Rich Education”, of course. I host THAT show and it’s different from THIS show.

What’s the trend here? Well, HO is highest in low cost states like the Midwest and Southeast, and HO is lower in high cost states. 

WV has the highest rate at 78%... because it’s low cost. 

NY has the lowest HO at 54%... because it’s high cost. NYC drags down the number for upstate NY.


So where are we headed? In the future, I expect a NATIONAL DROP in the homeownership rate.


This is because few expect property prices or mortgage rates to fall significantly. Lending requirements should stay strict. 


So it’s the awful FTHB affordability that will continue to take homeownership lower. 


See, FTHBers are also exactly the type of people that often have student loan debt repayments to make… if they ever have to begin repaying them. 


That’s also going to make it tougher for people to clear that affordability bar. They’re going to keep being your renter.  


And that's why I expect the homeownership rate to plummet below 66% where it is now, and then below the long-term average of 65% by 2025 or 2026. That’s where we’re likely headed if market forces prevail.


Depending on who our president is in 2025, government relief programs are just about the only thing that I can see getting in the way of a declining HO rate.


Household FORMATION is high right now… because you have sooo many Americans between ages 25 and 40.


So that question you’ve got to ask is - is that new HH going to be formed as a OO residence or as a rental?


Increasingly, it’s gonna be a rental because of that continued poor affordability.


See, for a ton of people, if they didn't get their ultra-low rate mortgage the past couple years, then, well, it’s too late. 


That era is over and that’s why their affordability ship has sailed. That ship has passed. It’s gone.


And that's why more RENTERS are being made every single day.


So if you’re a LL, this is expected to both increase your occupancy rate AND the amount of rent that you can charge.


Carefully-chosen rental property is really where today’s opportunity is.


I’ve got more on that shortly, as I’m about to bring in one of our two Investment Coaches.


You know, you’re telling us that you find it so helpful to have free one-on-one coaching with them, either Aundrea or nuh-RAYSH. 


Both coaches have their MBAs. When you read their bios on our Coaching Page, they’ve got some impressive international corporate experience.


But they both live right here in the USA and they’re active REIs themselves - that’s really how they help get you started and connect you with the right market and property.


It’s an in-house conversation with an IC & I straight ahead and we’ll discuss how we can help you.


I’m Keith Weinhold. You’re listening to Get Rich Education.



Aundrea talked about cash flow. OK, that exists. Great. Yet, I still think of these as better for appreciation than cash flow over time. She’d probably agree.


Maybe you’re thinking a brand new construction duplex in the path of progress IM West could cost $1M or $2M, but no, this builder provides them for less than that. 


And then, of course, you’re probably going to finance most of that cost yourself too.


And, BTW, Aundrea did smile at my dorky joke about her loving rap music. A big smile that you couldn’t see through the audio-only podcast here. 


But, yeah. You didn’t quite hear a laugh. See, one prerequisite to laughing is that a joke actually be funny.


In any case, Aundrea and the provider are your two co-hosts on Wednesday.


The provider is a powerhouse of knowledge about not just real estate and demographics and fourplexes, but construction and financing too and everything that goes into it in order to optimize the investor experience for you. 


HE can answer questions in real-time for you.


It is almost time for the Beehive State to shine as Utah is front, center and under the stage lights on GRE’s Live Event in just two days.


You are cordially invited to join… as long as you don’t ask Aundrea about rap music. 


But, really. When you put this all together - a 4-unit building is the most that you can get with best financing terms, the cash flow, new construction, often this BUILT-IN equity at purchase time too, a fast population growth market, all inside a demographic population in Utah that’s young and has good incomes… it’s really quite remarkable. Quite a confluence.


We haven’t had an event for a product type like this before, and I don’t know if we’ll ever have an event quite like this again. 


Attend live to get your questions answered and get the first look at the inventory.


But if you can’t make it on Wednesday, then sign up anyway and we will effort to get the replay link for you.


You can do it all at:


Until next week, I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. DQYD!

Direct download: GREepisode462_b.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 7:20am EDT

Sharply higher insurance premiums are affecting property owners nationwide. It’s especially bad in: CA, LA, FL, TX and CO.

This is due to erratic weather (climate) and higher rebuilding costs. 

Phenomena like an increasing intensity and frequency of hurricanes, tornadoes, wildfires, and floods are sending some insurers out of business.

State Farm and AllState completely stopped issuing new homeowner policies in California.

Some areas are on the brink of becoming completely UNinsurable. In that case, the only sales that could occur with all cash buyers.

Learn three techniques to keep your skyrocketing insurance costs lower.

As you’ll learn today, landlords have more options than homeowners for navigating spiking insurance rates.

Then, listen to a CNBC clip along with me about how the end of ZIRP (zero interest rate policy) affects your life and investments.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—

text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:



Complete episode transcript:


Welcome to GRE! I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. First, I’m going to help you make your real estate more profitable in the near term as I discuss how to deal with skyrocketing property insurance costs. 


Later, I’ll inform your strategy about your long-term, overall personal finance as we talk about what the end of free money means in this new era of higher interest rates. Today, on Get Rich Education.



Welcome to GRE! From Tirana, Albania to Albany, New York and across 188 nations worldwide, I’m Keith Weinhold and you’re listening to Get Rich Education.


This is how real wealth is built in the real world with real estate. We aren’t day traders. We are DECADE traders.


And we do that with the right mission. Let’s invest directly in America - own real property in American neighborhoods, and provide housing that’s clean, safe, affordable and functional.


And when we all do that, we can abolish the term “slumlord”.


Conversely, what do some people think about first? Themselves.




Ha ha ha! Over the top with some vintage Ric Flair. There’s nothing wrong with living well. But that best comes as a byproduct of serving OTHERS first.


Let’s talk about the SKYROCKETING cost of property insurance. Why it’s happening, what MY experience is, and what you can do to manage it.


First of all, and I hope that none of my insurance agents are listening, but why would you ever work in the insurance industry? 


And I kid. But that’s got to be one of the most boring industries to work in.


What 15-year-old ever says that when they grow up, they want to be an insurance broker? Nobody.


But, in any case, it is a STABLE industry because there will long be a need for insurance.


But, I mean, even your customers - the policyholders like us - we don’t really want insurance.


Insurance ads all say the same thing: “Switch and save.” No one has seen an advertisement from this industry that says, “Upgrade for better coverage.” 


That’s because so many people just want the minimum coverage and want to get on with their lives… until a calamity occurs.


But now, the insurance industry has gotten SOMEWHAT more interesting lately, the effects of which center around erratic weather… maybe you like calling it climate change, maybe you don’t.


But suffice to say, if erratic weather persists, then it’s no longer erratic, rather, it is, in fact, a pattern, and then, a change in a region’s climate.


The intensity & frequency of storms is increasing. I’m talking about weather phenomena like hurricanes, floods, wildfires, tornadoes, and even high snowfall. 


Inflation also means that there are rising COSTS to rebuild. 


And RE-insurance costs are higher. Yes, your insurance company gets insurance from insurers themselves, called re-insurance. Re-insurance companies insure insurers.


Everyone knows State Farm’s jingle. “Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.” No, State Farm is gone. 


State Farm is the largest home insurer in CA. So they’re the largest home insurer in the most populous state.


Well, you might have heard a few months ago that they’re completely stopping issuance of new home insurance policies in all of CA. And AllState followed shortly afterward.


Persistent wildfires are a culprit there.


Insurance companies can’t make any money so it’s hard to blame them.


Well, why don’t they just, say, double their premiums? Some sure have. Others can’t because of competition for lower rates from other companies. 


But a lot of SMALLER insurance companies - including many in Florida - have done just that. They’ve gone out of business… and when there are fewer companies in business - less competition - that’s when rates can get jacked up high.


Insurance rates are up the most in many of the states that have the greatest incidence of hurricanes, floods, and wildfires.


What are the states where rates are rising most? 


CA, LA, and FL. And after that, TX and CO too, and some other states. 


TX is one state that’s subject to both hurricanes and tornadoes - hurricanes in SE Texas - Galveston, Houston and Corpus Christi.


And tornadoes in NE Texas, like Dallas-Fort Worth.


So, when hazards happen, losses can occur. That’s why your lienholder - your mortgage holder - forces you to have insurance. They require you to have it because they’re not willing to take that risk.


Louisiana’s problems with insurers REALLY compounded a few years ago when Hurricanes Delta, Ida, and Laura hit the state. That created a true crisis in Louisiana’s insurance market. 


A lot of insurers just left with $24B in insurance claims during that period. Others in Louisiana stopped issuing new policies and increased the premiums on the existing insured homeowners.


Now, I’m going to center on the homeowner’s insurance problem in Florida soon, because Florida is a popular investor state, I own a lot of rental properties in Florida and I’ll tell you about my personal insurance experience there shortly. 


When it comes to wildfires - which are often spurred by hot, dry, and windy weather conditions, some areas are on the brink of becoming completely UNinsurable. 


California has a bunch of regions like that. And other places like Bend, Oregon and Boulder, CO are in danger of insurance denial because the homes are surrounded by forest. 


If that happens there, the only resale market for the properties would be to all-cash buyers, unless the state ever comes in to buy them out since people were ALLOWED to build there in the first place.


Now, notice that I haven’t mentioned earthquakes yet. Earthquakes aren’t related to the surface weather like hurricanes and wildfires and these other things are.


Earthquake insurance, which many people have in places like CA, WA, OR and AK is often a completely SEPARATE policy from your standard homeowner’s policy and EQ insurance is prohibitively expensive.


Besides that, their deductibles can be high, like 10 or 20%. If an earthquake completely destroys your $500K home and you have a 20% deductible…


… then to even make a claim, you’d need to come out of pocket $100K first - plus you’d be paying high premiums all that time just to have that condition!


Anchorage, AK had a big magnitude 7.1 earthquake back in 2018. 


I was in Anchorage when it happened and I told you about that here on the show back then. I was pretty shaken up. 


At the time, I owned dozens of apartment units in Anchorage. I don’t anymore. I had, maybe $40,000 of out-of-pocket cosmetic damage that I had to pay from that one earthquake.


Lienholders DO not make EQ coverage a necessity, and 25% of Anchorage homeowners had coverage before the quake. It went up to 35% afterward.


Fortunately, the top cash flow REI areas don’t tend to be in the west coast of the United States.


So, how high have some of these insurance premiums gotten in states known for disasters?


Well, the average is about $225 per month in LA. In TX, it’s $250 per month on their average $300K home, and in Florida it’s about $325 monthly on a $300K home. 


Of course, that’s going to vary by what region of the state you’re in and distance from the coast and such.


One weather phenomena that I haven’t seen any evidence of in contributing to higher insurance costs is heat itself. 


This summer, Phoenix hit a new record for consecutive days that exceeded 110 degrees Fahrenheit. That went on for weeks on end.


But heat in itself, and its resultant air conditioner use and power load - is not something directly attributable to escalating insurance costs, unless power load problems start a fire.


Now, you keep hearing about climate migrants moving to more northerly places with access to a lot of fresh water like Minnesota, Michigan, and Wisconsin.


But these stories seem to be largely anecdotal and of little impact.


The faster-growing areas continue to be in the Mojave and Sonoran deserts - that’s Las Vegas and Phoenix - places with lots of heat, rising heat, and dry conditions. 


And despite what you might think, they’re not going to run out of water anytime soon. 


Those deserts actually have a lower incidence of natural disasters too, which is one reason why they’ve built new microchip plants in Phoenix. 


Climate migrants moving north might be a thing at some point - but it still is not.


Well, speaking of hot in-migration states, Florida has had a LIGHT hurricane season so far. But that’s not the kind of thing that we can count on for long.


Rates have gone up more than 50% throughout the state of Florida, with ALL insurance carriers. 


Carriers are either pulling out of the state (because its not profitable for them), or they’re increasing rates across the board, or they’re not renewing policyholders.


Now, I’ve had my rates hiked up on my Florida properties more than once. 


There, it’s often because an insurance company goes out of business due to too many claims, and then I have to switch to another landlord’s policy carrier that always has higher rates.


So here’s what happens. I get a notice in the US mail that my current insurer on a Florida rental SFH - call them Insurer A - is going out of business in 5 months and that I have 5 months to find a new insurer - call them Insurer B.


So I take a photo of that notice and forward it over to my Florida insurance agent and ask them to give me quotes for my new prospective Insurer B. 


Now, say that if you don’t do that. 


If you don’t ask your insurance broker or agent to get you a new policy, if you don’t act, here’s what happens.


Say that the 5-month deadline approaches and you still don’t have new coverage lined up.


Your mortgage holder, call them Wells Fargo or Chase, they’ll send you a notice in the mail and remind you that it’s required that you have insurance in place – because Wells Fargo or Chase doesn’t want to be on the hook for the risk… and if you don’t get a new insurer - Wells Fargo, say, will buy a policy FOR you & make you pay it.


And the insurance that they buy for you will have lesser coverage and cost way more.


It seems like, whoever the bank is, they always tell me that they’re going to buy me an ultra-pricey policy with Lloyd’s of London.


So again, it doesn’t entail too much work on your part. If your insurer is going out of business or just doesn’t want to issue you a new policy, share that notice with your insurance person and ask them for new quotes. That’s a quick, easy thing to do.


And then, when you switch insurance companies, your PM must submit photos of your rental home to the new insurer within something like 15 days.


Over the past few years, I think I’ve had Florida properties where the premiums have been hiked up steeply twice. I seem to remember a complete doubling a year or two ago.


More recently, I had 30% rate increases on some of my Florida rental properties.


So how much am I paying now? Well, on one Florida rental SFH that has a market value of about $300K, I’m paying $330 per month. 


Of course, for your long-term rental properties, your landlord insurance contract should provide what’s called “loss of rents,” coverage.


That’s something that OO homeowner’s policies don’t have. 


That means that if your property is damaged and your tenants are displaced, your insurer pays the fair market rent to you since the tenant won’t. That’s typically capped at 12 months.


On your STRs - like AirBnBs and VRBOs, the coverage that you want is called “lost business income” with no time limit. And that might take an upgrade to a commercial insurance policy for STRs.


Alright, so let’s get to something actionable. We are real estate investors for the production of income.


So amidst what are perhaps UNPRECEDENTED increases in insurance premiums these last few years, how do you navigate this, and what do you do to stay profitable?


Well, whether you’re an OO or a rental property owner, you can do things like make sure that your coverage is appropriate.


You can raise your deductible amount to reduce your annual premium, of course.


The more financially strong that you are, the higher you can make your deductible because the less a claim is going to impact you.


But as a rental property owner, you have a FEW LEVERS that you can pull that OOs cannot.


The big one - is that this is your cue to RAISE THE RENT.


Yes, higher insurance premiums point to raising the rent. 


Really, this is like a game of hot potato… and it is your job to pass along the potato. That’s all that you’re doing here.


See, the reinsurer raised rates on your property insurer.


Your property insurer is raising the rate premium on you, the property owner.


Now it’s your job to pass along the hot potato to the tenant in the form of a rent increase.


Then your tenant has to pass along the hot potato by asking their employer for a raise or finding new employment.


And it keeps going, now your tenant’s employer needs to pass along the higher labor cost in the form of raising consumer prices on the goods or services that they produce… and it continues throughout the economy.


That’s how inflation works.


It’s your job to pass along the hot potato.


What if the tenant leaves? Well, there’s always that possibility. 


But if they go to rent or buy a “like” property, it’s still going to have the same higher insurance cost that they’d have to pay.


For help with that, and this is the second time that I referred back to this recently, in Episode 449, just twelve weeks ago, I provided you with 12 ways to raise the rent. Again, that’s Episode 449.


You always want to provide a REASON to the tenant about why their rent is increasing, say 5% in this case for example.


Nothing beats the truth. Your insurance costs are higher. That’s the reason.


Now, you might be wondering, if, say, insurance costs just rose 30%, like they did on one of my own properties recently, then how is a 5% rent increase going to offset that?


That’s because your rent amount is multiples more than your monthly insurance amount.


If your rent on a property goes from $2,000 to $2,100, that’s just 5%, but it’s a $100 increase in your income.


If your monthly insurance cost goes from $200 up 30% to $260. That’s a $60 decrease in your income.


You have a $100 gain from rent and just a $60 deduction from your insurance increase, and you’ve more than offset it. It’s THAT effect.


Now, what if your numbers don’t work for raising the rent though? As an income property owner, you have other levers that you can pull that are less palatable as an OO.


That is, can you sell the property? If you’re in SFRs, there is a big buyer appetite for them.


And in just the past three years, there’s been so much appreciation that you might have a lot of equity such that you can trade it up for 2 SFRs.


Now, new-build properties in a place like Florida have substantially lower insurance costs than older properties, because new-build properties are built to more stringent wind resistance requirements.


So you might trade up your older, existing Florida property in this case for a new-build property that has lower insurance deductibles.


Insurance costs ALONE rarely drive investment decisions. But it’s the fact that you’d get to reposition dollars at a higher leverage ratio at the same time.


But now, if you’ve owned the property for, say 2 years or more, you might lose your ultra-low rate mortgage that you got a few years ago.


You need to run some numbers and see if it’s worth giving up your low mortgage rate in order to get more leverage and lower insurance premiums. That’s the trade-off.


See what works best for you.


So, your first lever is clearly to just raise the rent on your existing properties that have higher insurance rates.


To summarize what you can do to meet higher insurance premiums is:


#1 - Raise the rent. #2 - Tilt your portfolio into more NEW-BUILD properties in some markets, and #3 - Increase your deductibles.


They are the actionable takeaways that I really wanted to share with you today. 


Keep investing. Tweak your strategy where you need to. Be sure that your tenants are taken care of.


And after that, remember, that it’s common that when you have an insurance CLAIM, that you often profit from the event when your claim pays more than your actual losses were.


Coming up shortly, the 15-year Era of Money for Nothing is Over. How does this new era look and how do you adjust to it?


There is more real estate news and more that impacts your personal finances every week that we can cover in one big, weekly show here.


Strip Malls are Hot (yes, really) Strip malls are hot, Old Houses are Now as Valuable as New Houses, and Zillow predicts 6.3% HPA from June of this year to June of next year.


More details on stories like that, as well as my breakdowns of developments like that are in our Don’t Quit Your Daydream Letter. You can get it free. Just text “GRE” to “66866”. 


Actionable real estate guidance, breaking news, and a dose of my dorky, cornball humor are all in the letter.


Get it free by texting “GRE” to 66866. More next. I’m Keith Weinhold. You’re listening to Get Rich Education.



Welcome back to Get Rich Education. This is Episode 461. I’m your host, Keith Weinhold.


The United States is entering a new economic era. 15 years of access to nearly FREE MONEY has come to an end.


Let’s listen in to this terrific CNBC compilation where you’ll hear the voices of a number of economists, reporters, and directly from people that used to work at the Fed… on what this all means with the end of Fed Funds Rates at zero - the good and the bad.


Some familiar voices that you’ll hear include CNBC’s Steve Leisman.


And, near the end, Former Fed Chair Ben Bernanke.


This is about 12 minutes in length and then I will come back to comment.


[CNBC Clip]


Let’s remember that economies work slowly. There are lag effects. The Fed began hiking rates in March of 2022.


And higher rates are only starting their job, not finishing.


Today, higher insurance premiums and a higher cost of MONEY (which is what interest rates are) are trends to navigate.


With both, if you’re a landlord, you can raise the rent. 


Longer-term, have that 30-year FIRD. Just that plain, vanilla loan in most cases. Nothing fancy. 


That’s because, living in the US has many benefits, like stunning national parks, seedless watermelon, and pizza with cheese baked into the crust.


But it’s got something even better, even better than fixing your rate for 30 years. It’s that ability for you to refinance as soon as rates drop.


You get to alter the deal whenever it’s best for you whenever you’re in residential real estate.


Well, at the end of the show, I’ve learned that you’re often thinking “I want more. How can I get more content like this without having to wait until next week?”


I often like to leave you with something actionable at the end. Get our Don’t Quit Your Daydream Letter. I write every word myself. You can get it free right now. Just text “GRE” to “66866”. 


Until next week, I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. DQYD!

Direct download: GREepisode461_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

In this podcast episode, Keith Weinhold and Kirk Chisholm discuss the differences between real estate and stock investing.

Kirk Chisholm is the Principal of Innovative Advisory Group. He provides his perspective as a wealth manager, emphasizing the control and lower risk offered by alternative assets like real estate. 

Learn the difference between risk and volatility.

We discuss risk-adjusted returns, liquidity, and the importance of understanding and managing risk. The conversation also covers cash flow, dividends, big tech stocks, and private mortgages.

Interest rates and inflation—we discuss their future. Kirk believes rates will stay at this higher rate for a long time.


The Paradigm Shift in Interest Rates and Inflation [00:00:01]

Discussion on the new paradigm of interest rates and inflation and how it affects real estate and stock investors.

The Impact of Front Porches on Society [00:01:35]

Exploration of the impact of the disappearance of front porches on neighborhoods and communities.

The Definition and Management of Risk in Investments [00:05:50]

Explanation of how risk is defined and managed in different types of investments, including stocks, real estate, and alternative assets.

The difference between volatility and risk [00:10:21]

Explanation of the temporary price movements (volatility) and permanent impairment of capital (risk) in different investment assets.

The illiquidity of real estate and non-traded REITs [00:13:11]

Discussion on the illiquidity of real estate compared to publicly traded markets and the example of non-traded REITs during the 2008 financial crisis.

Importance of cash flow and dividends in stock investments [00:15:26]

Exploration of the two camps in stock investing: cash flow-driven investors and appreciation-driven investors, and the significance of dividends and cash flow in stock investments.

Dividend Stocks and Value Stocks [00:20:17]

Explanation of the difference between growth stocks and value stocks, with a focus on dividend-paying stocks.

Private Mortgages and Cash Flow [00:21:12]

Discussion on the benefits of investing in private mortgages and how it provides a passive income stream.

Default Rates on Hard Money Loans [00:25:48]

Exploration of the default rates on hard money loans and the industry's approach to mitigating risks for both borrowers and lenders.

The new paradigm of interest rates and inflation [00:31:32]

Kirk Chisholm discusses the shift in the economic paradigm from low interest rates and inflation to higher rates and a shrinking economy.

The impact of higher rates on mortgages and real estate [00:35:39]

Kirk explains how higher interest rates affect mortgage payments and housing affordability, leading to a decline in house prices.

The consequences of higher rates on corporate America [00:37:48]

Kirk discusses how higher rates can impact corporations, particularly those with short-term debt, potentially leading to bankruptcies and market clean-up.

Higher rates and recession correlation [00:39:55]

Discussion on the correlation between recessions and lowering of interest rates, and why it may not happen in the future due to high inflation.

Fed's focus on stable prices [00:42:48]

The Federal Reserve's prioritization of stable prices over high employment, within their dual mandate.

Interest rates and the economy [00:44:10]

The potential impact of higher interest rates on the economy, with a discussion on when the next recession may occur.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Innovative Advisory Group:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—

text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:



Complete episode transcript:


Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to. I'm your host, Keith White. As a real estate investor, you are highly cognizant of your cash flows to stock investors. Even think about that and how we've now entered a completely new paradigm of interest rates and inflation and how to respond today on Get Rich Education with real estate capital Jacksonville. Real estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor since 2013. GPB is ready to help your money make money and to make it easy for everyday investors. Get started at GWB Real estate. Agree that's GWB Real estate. Agree.


Speaker 2 (00:00:59) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get rich education.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:22) - What category? From Bogota, Colombia, to Wichita, Kansas, and across 188 nations worldwide. You are back in that abundantly minded place where financially free beats debt free.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:35) - And by now you might have already won the inflation Triple Crown. I'm your host, Keith Wild. Hey, Noah, is this a real estate problem? Philip Gulley, the author of Porch Talk. He said, I believe all that is wrong with the world can be attributed to the shortage of front porches and the talks we had on them. Somewhere around 1950, builders left off the front porch to save money, and we've had nothing but problems ever since. That's just the sort of thing that I think about now as you and I are enjoying the dog days of summer, as I trust that you are, you know, neighborhoods, property, it all used to be more wide open. The Pennsylvania house that I grew up in and that my parents still live in, it has a real front porch. And no one I mean, nobody has fences around their yard either. It is a real lemonade sipping chat with the neighbors vibe there that, well, seems to be more and more of a remnant of yesteryear.


Keith Weinhold (00:02:44) - I mean, gosh, from what I can see, there are more and more gated communities. Uh, people tend to get more concerned about security and that often means that they trade away freedom. Hey, well, our guest on the show today, he hits differently. And you're going to feel that because he's the principal of a firm that helps investors with stocks, bonds and mutual funds, as well as real estate investing. And it's not just REITs, real estate investment trusts, but more than that. And, you know, whenever he and I talk, we tend to get each other thinking in different ways, in shape, each other's opinions somewhat, as you'll probably see again today. He and I disagree on some things and we agree on others. I'm going to ask him about whether or not stock investors even care about cash flow. We'll be sure to get his insights on the direction of interest rates and inflation and more. Well, I'd like to welcome in our guest today he runs innovative he's the principle and a wealth manager there at innovative advisory group.


Keith Weinhold (00:03:54) - They're based in Massachusetts but they advise well beyond any state borders. Hey it's been a few years. It's great to have you back. Kirk Chisholm Thanks for inviting me back. Keith. I was a little worried there didn't appear well in your show, but thanks for having me back. Yeah, well, it's been absolutely too long, and I really appreciate your perspective because they're with what you do. You're principal of a company that helps people invest in a big, wide palette of things, from stocks to private mortgages and some things with real estate and elsewhere. So you have this really broad view. So tell us what percentage of your business is is stocks, bonds and their derivative products like ETFs and mutual funds versus everything else? It's interesting because my industry is primarily focused on stocks, bonds and mutual funds. It always has been, probably always will be, in large part because they're easy to sell, They're publicly available information and everyone is can simply just click a button and get it done. So my industry tends to work towards lazy solutions or simple solutions.


Keith Weinhold (00:05:00) - Nothing wrong with that. You just have to know with what you're getting. It's funny, when we started our firm in 2008, we were doing a lot of private mortgages and we talked to the regulators at the time and they said, Oh, well, what percentage of your accounts in alternatives? Because we told them we did alternatives like what percentage of your accounts? And we said, Yeah, somewhere like 40 to 50%. You know, it probably ranges between 40 and 60. You could hear a pin drop in that room. I did pick the lady's mouth off the floor like she couldn't believe that. How quote unquote, risky that is. And she said the first question, she's like, are you serious? Isn't that really risky? And I started laughing and I said, risky? You mean like Worldcom, Enron, AIG, Tyco, You know, like Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns? They just kept going on and on. She's like, all right, I get the point. And we had to define the concept of risk.


Keith Weinhold (00:05:50) - This is the part that your audience will appreciate, right? If you're investing in a company, it's been screened by the SEC. It's passed certain muster. It's SEC doesn't endorse it, but it's passed certain muster. You say, all right, I feel comfortable that this company's met the minimum criteria. That's not always the case. Right. Companies go bankrupt all the time. And we actually have a spike in bankruptcies most recently because of the economy. But if you look at piece of real estate, I can go walk up and touch it. I can go to the Registry of Deeds and see that I own it. I can talk to the maintenance guy or the property manager and see what's going on and have influence on it. I would say if you know what you're doing, there's a lot less risk. And I would say if you own a piece of gold, what's your risk? I could lose it. Somebody could steal it. The government confiscates it. That's pretty much it, right? It's not going to zero.


Keith Weinhold (00:06:37) - It's not going to the moon. It's just a rock. The way you define risk is really something that a lot of people don't spend time with is managing that risk. So a lot of what we've done is we've looked at it from a different perspective. What is the best investment given the criteria that we have, the markets we're in and the risk available? You know, what is going to do the best considering the risk as an example, Bitcoin or Ethereum or any sort of cryptocurrency, the risk is it could go to zero, right? It's not going to go below zero risk as you lose all your money or you might make 10 or 20 times your money, right? That is also possible. Both scenarios are probably on the extreme ends of probable, but either way, like you have to account for both scenarios and say is it worth it going to zero for me to make X amount of return? If the answer is yes, then it makes sense. If the answer is no, then don't invest in it or invest in a lot less of it.


Keith Weinhold (00:07:31) - So that's kind of how we look at risk and that's why we look across the board for alternative assets. We're very agnostic about the assets because it really just comes down to, is it a good investment or not? That's really the criteria we look at. Risk is what goes beyond the edge of your understanding. Think that's what applies to that conversation that you had that you brought up there earlier. Right. It's largely about one's risk adjusted return. You talk about with real estate how you have more control over an investment because you can get in there and understand it and change the operations of it in order to drive a return. And then stocks have this very efficient market where it's quick and easy to get in and out and things are more liquid. This very efficient market with real estate, there really isn't any app you can go on and be like, Oh, okay, well my duplex was up 3/10 of 1% this past week. That doesn't happen. That's part of the inherent inefficiencies with direct ownership of real estate, of course.


Keith Weinhold (00:08:32) - I would argue the point of efficient markets, the stock market is is not efficient, despite what the academics will tell you. It is more liquid. I would argue that real estate is illiquid, which is good and bad, right? If you need to sell, it's bad. If you're looking to buy and you don't need to buy, it could be really good. Stock market is very different in that it's claimed to be efficiently priced with all the known information at the given time. And the price is the price. And what I would argue is that's an interesting philosophical standpoint, but it's inaccurate, right? Because if all the information was known, then we wouldn't have volatility. But we do have volatility and the stock market is a forward pricing discount mechanism, right? So you look out six months and say, what's the market going to do? That's where the stock prices are six months from now, not today, six months from now. So whatever the market thinks is happening, they think it's going to happen then.


Keith Weinhold (00:09:26) - So if you look at interest rates, which I'm sure we'll get to, they're looking out six months and for the last two years I've noticed on the expectation of the yield curve, it's that, oh, rates are going to drop in the next 3 to 6 months and in 3 to 6 months it's going to drop in 3 to 6 months. Over and over, it keeps pricing out well, another 3 or 6 months. And I think that the market doesn't really look beyond that because it's really hard to predict. First of all, you can't predict the future anyway, but if you're probabilistically, going to try beyond six months is really hard because there's so many things that got to happen that changed the dynamics significantly. Talk about efficiency with stocks. I'm talking about how stocks are efficient and easy to liquidate. It's pretty easy to sell. And then over here in real estate investing, there is no panic selling because it takes quite a while to buy into sell. Therefore, that's some of the inefficiency of real estate compared to stocks.


Keith Weinhold (00:10:21) - We look at that through a liquidity perspective, right? So liquidity can be a good thing or a bad thing because when there's panic, selling, liquidity can lead to greater volatility like we see in stock. Yeah. And I want to point out two things here. So first is there's a difference between volatility and risk. And I think it's really important for people to understand the difference. So volatility is temporary price movements. It's how much the price fluctuates in any given day. Real estate investors don't see this right, But stock investors, Microsoft is up 5% yesterday. Nvidia's up like whatever, 70% of the day or whatever it was, 30 some odd percent in a day. That's volatility, right? You look at stock prices drop 30 plus percent in a short period of time. Technically, that should have been risk because the whole global economy shut down. But it turned into volatility because it went down and it came back up, actually exceeded the price of the start of Covid by the end of the year, which is insane to think about.


Keith Weinhold (00:11:20) - The whole world shut down. People are locked in their houses and yet the stock market is up. That is what I would consider volatility. Now, risk is what I would call a permanent impairment of capital. Now what that means is you buy a Beanie Baby at $100 because you think it's going to be worth a lot more. And then all of a sudden the Beanie Baby bubble crashes and never recovers and it turns into a $100 Beanie Baby into like a dollar. That's a permanent impairment of capital. That is a risk that you're not going to ever get your money back. You buy a I hate to swear on your show, but a beep coin that make up most of the cryptocurrency coins out there. They could all go to zero. I mean, you look at drawing a blank on the one with that. Elon Musk supports the dog dogecoin. Yeah, they claim this zero. It's a socially supported currency, but it doesn't have any value and they all admit it doesn't have any value. It's virtually worthless except for what people are willing to pay for it.


Keith Weinhold (00:12:15) - That has the potential to have risk in it because it could go to zero. But if I'm investing in GE, Microsoft, Apple, Johnson, Johnson, whatever, these companies that produce cash flow, they're solid companies with a long, long track record, they could certainly go to zero, no question. But typically the movements in price are volatility. Risk is when the chairman goes off, steals all the money and moves off to some island and people are left holding the bag saying, what's going on? You know, you look at AIG, Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, all those companies that basically made bad decisions, that is risk. That is not volatility. So it's important to understand the differences between the two, because if you don't, most people think of I am managing risk, I'm diversifying. No, you're managing volatility. Managing risk is completely different and you have to use different tools for that. Most people don't manage risk, they manage volatility. The other point I want to make is you mentioned the illiquidity of real estate.


Keith Weinhold (00:13:11) - And I want to point out an example which is kind of bordering the owning your own real estate versus, let's say, a REIT. I remember back in 2008, nine and ten when people were jumping out of the windows because they couldn't get rid of their illiquid non traded REITs. And I'm not a supporter of that of non-trade REITs or people jumping out of Windows. But in general, the non traded REITs market was interesting because technically they said you'd have quarterly liquidity, you could get a quarterly and normal times. That was true. They would just cash you out if you need money. However, when everyone's running for the door at the same time, they can't cash everybody out because they can't sell the property. So what do they do? They lock the doors, locked everybody in to burn alive. Well, the price went from, let's say, hypothetically, $100 down to $10 and people wanted out at any price. It didn't matter. They needed out. They need liquidity. Whatever it was, there were actually markets around.


Keith Weinhold (00:14:03) - You could buy people's shares of these non traded reach for like $0.10 in the dollar and people were willing to pay to discount 90% of the investment where you could have just walked in and purchased it and waited another five, seven years and you could have made 100 cents in the dollar. It's crazy. But that's one of the nice parts about real estate. And I'm using a security as an example because you can do that in real estate. But when you have the publicly traded markets, that doesn't necessarily happen, but it can happen in certain periods of time when the markets are completely irrational and everybody thinks the world is ending. Sure, that's a be greedy when other people are fearful, sort of seeing their I know their IT innovative advisory group. Since you do have this wide palette of offerings, you kind of have this broader view of things. I'm wondering, Kirk, a lot of people in that stock world, many of them concerned with cash flow or it might be dividend there, or are they even as interested in cash flow there with the kind of stock and mutual fund investments as they are over here in the real estate world where we're quite interested in cash flow? And then do they even take the dividends or do they just reinvest them, which is called a drip program dividend reinvestment program? How important is that to investors on the stock side? It's a good question.


Keith Weinhold (00:15:26) - So what tends to happen is people kind of fall into two camps, much like the real estate camp. Some people fall into the. Cash flow camp. Which is your camp? Which is my opinion. I think that's the best way to invest is cash flow appreciation. You're just taking a guess. But there are good amount of people that are appreciation driven. They don't look at cash, so they're happy to make zero cash flow for the expectation They're going to make lots of money and appreciation and look at them like, What are you thinking? Like, what if the cash flow declines? You're going to support the negative cash. Why do you own it? It's silly, but some people think that way. They think, Let's go for the appreciation. Let's roll the dice. Let's go. No whammies, you know? And what ends up happening is these people make mistakes because the real estate market, this usually happens at closer to the tops and people make bad decisions and they realize, oh, crap, I can't make this work.


Keith Weinhold (00:16:16) - I was trying to Airbnb this with a two cap, this not working. So now I need to sell this thing or I'm going to lose my shirt. I had these conversations all the time. So using that as an example, because that's where your audience will understand dividend investors the same. So a lot of people, when they're investing in stocks, they're looking at stocks as a way to make money. Most people want total growth, which really means in their mind, appreciation. What are the stock market do this week? What did it do this quarter? That's all people want to know. Well, what about the dividends? Well, actually, there was a time 40, 50 years ago when dividends mattered, you could get six, seven, eight, 9% dividends. Now, that's absurd to think about that. The only stocks that pay dividends of that nature are stocks that are highly speculative or the dividend is highly speculative. Market typically looks at dividends and if they don't trust the dividend will continue to get paid.


Keith Weinhold (00:17:08) - They'll actually discount the stock, which will make the dividend look real attractive. It'll suck people in to buy it and then they'll slash the dividend back to a rate that's normal. So people looking at dividend stocks, be careful because we're not in that environment where dividend stocks are all that attractive. If I can get a 5% close to zero risk US Treasury bond and I can compare that to a 2% dividend stock, I'll take the Treasury all day because it's close to guaranteed dividend stock. Maybe it goes up, maybe it goes down, who knows? But, you know, ultimately you're trying to solve a problem. The big challenge we have now, is any of this sustainable? Are the cash flows sustainable? Good value? Investors should be looking at cash flows. They should be looking at metrics and trying to find stocks that are at a good price that will pay them a handsome return over time. And the problem is, is we don't live in that environment much like the real estate market. It gets overheated because too many people are chasing too few properties and virtually everyone was putting all their money into 5 to 7 stocks on the Fantastic Seven or the Faang stocks or whatever you want to call it These days.


Keith Weinhold (00:18:18) - That name changes all the time. But the point is, you've got big tech that's driving most of the return this year. Think big tech made up 2,530% of the S&P 500 500 stocks. You have five stocks making up 25 to 30% of the index by size. And by return, it made up think the S&P was up 15%. And these 5 or 7 stocks made up 13% of that 15. Really crazy, crazy to think about. Right. But that's what people look at is the index. And the index is not necessarily accurate, but that's what people look at. So you have to gauge it by that. Most of the marketplace is chasing these appreciation returns. And like you have with real estate, you get the good with the bad, you chase appreciation. You can win or lose. I don't know where the future is going to be, but I know that if I'm chasing cash flow, I'm pretty certain I know where that's going. But if I'm investing in a tech stock that has negative cash flow, I have no idea where that's going.


Keith Weinhold (00:19:19) - Right. Could go up, could go down, who knows? But I look for stocks with good cash flow. I think if you're going to invest well, you want to find a legacy stock that you feel comfortable owning forever. Now, when it comes back to the Fang acronym, I tend to think Nvidia should be replacing Netflix in the Fang acronym about this time. But dropping back earlier when we were talking about dividends, I don't track this very closely, but last I checked, probably last year it seemed like the average dividend paying stock in the S&P 500 was something like 2%. Is that still about right? I think it's actually a little bit lower. I haven't looked at it in the last few weeks because it's gotten so low, it's almost not even worth looking at. I think last year was 1.77. As of right now, it's 1.47 on the S&P 500, 1.5%, which is insanely low for real estate investors. I think of the dividend yield in stocks as being synonymous with the cash on cash return in real estate.


Keith Weinhold (00:20:17) - But you said something earlier about dividends, Kirk, that I actually thought was the opposite way. I thought that dividend paying stocks tended to be kind of those older, stodgy or staid, like a utility company rather than a younger tech. Company. Yes, that is accurate. Yes, Most of the dividend stocks are what we would consider value stocks. So the terms growth, stock and value stock are actually don't mean anything. They're what everyone wants it to mean. What they tend to mean is growth Stocks tend to be stocks that are focused on appreciation. Value stocks are typically focused on cash flows or their stocks that are discounted, and you can buy them for good cash flow. But if you look at a stock like Microsoft, I mean, you got the dividend yield is about 75 basis points, 76 basis points as of today. So you're getting less than 1%. But Microsoft's one of the the Fang stocks, right, or Fang, whatever they're calling it now, they come up with a new acronym.


Keith Weinhold (00:21:12) - But some of these big tech Apple's fang of dividend so some of the big tech actually are paying dividends. Now what we're talking about, the production of cash flow or income from both stocks and real estate here. And one thing that I know you do in there and that you help investors with is private mortgages in producing an income stream that way. Can you tell us more about that? Is that where you have clients where you connect them with ways to make hard money, loans to real estate investors, for example? As we talk about here, I'm a big fan of cash flows and I have a few favorite asset classes and they're not the stock market, right? I love real estate. I love tax liens. Tax lien is by far my favorite. If you can get them the right way and the right price, which you can't, but if you could, that's one of my favorites for many reasons, but one of the ones that we do a lot of are hard money loans or private mortgages.


Keith Weinhold (00:22:05) - The reason I love it is because they're simple. If you're investing in real estate, it's not passive income. It's a business. You have to manage the business. You have a property manager, you've got tenants, you've got expenses, you've got taxes. All this stuff you have to deal with, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But when people invest passively, it's not passive, right? It's active. It just happens to be a different business than one that you're selling widgets out of the corner store. If you're investing in private mortgages, you have to do your due diligence up front. But once you invest in it, you're done until you get paid back. It's like any sort of fixed income. It's a bond. It's fixed income is how I look at it now. For the past ten plus years, you couldn't get any rates on bonds, your fixed income, part of your portfolio, your treasuries, your corporate bonds, whatever you're buying, you're getting close to zero.


Keith Weinhold (00:22:54) - And there was a lot of risk. So we substituted these for our fixed income and you're getting 10 to 15% over the last ten years where the common rates and I like them because you're getting access to real estate. So real estate is backing the note. So it's a mortgage, right? So you're lending somebody else money at, let's say, 12% and they're going to pay you that 12% and give your money back at the end. And if they don't, you get their property. Now, personally, I don't want their property is too much headache because when I got to do foreclosure and go through all that, that's not the point. Some people do. Some people invest in hard money with the assumption they're going to own that property. And it's a great acquisition strategy. If you're so inclined. It's not you know, I have clients. I can't have that kind of business model. It's just too much of a headache for everybody. So we want people that are going to pay and pay on time and people are going to continually come back and I can work with versus having the lender investor that actually helps the borrower default so that they can get the property correct, which like I said, is a great investment strategy.


Keith Weinhold (00:23:55) - It's just not our investment strategy. And I think just like real estate, you can buy foreclosures, you can buy off MLS, you can build. There's so many different things you can do. Same thing with notes with paper. Paper is a great asset class if you know what you're doing. The challenge with private mortgages, hard money now is because everything is so expensive that these investors, these fixed and flippers investors would have. You can't make money. And I know there are people out there that are doing it. So it's not that it's not happening, but anybody I know that's really good at fixing flip or rehabs or things like that in my area, not speaking for every part of the country in Miami, in the Boston area, they're not doing deals because they can't make money. There's no margin of error. If they were to compete and win the deal and they make a mistake, they're going to lose money. They don't want to lose money. So they need to have a big enough margin cushion so that they make a mistake.


Keith Weinhold (00:24:49) - They're still making money. So these people we work with, they're not doing deals because there are no deals to find. So that means there are fewer mortgages times like 2008, nine and ten, we didn't have enough client cash to put to work. Like we had so many notes coming at us we didn't have enough cash to find. Now it's the reverse. There's plenty of cash chasing them and there's not enough notes out there. And a lot of the notes are poor quality because the risk is too high. We want easy. We want somebody paying on time, we want our money back and then go on and do it again. So I love them for cash flow. It's simple and easy and it solves a lot of problems. So this is interesting. If you as a real estate investor have ever taken a hard money loan, you might wonder who the lender is on the other side of that. And that might be someone like Kirk's clients in there where he is. Kirk. Can you tell us more about the default rates on the hard money loans lately? How often do they not get paid back and do they go into default? Yeah, that's a good question.


Keith Weinhold (00:25:48) - So I don't know the industry rates. So we work with a handful of people and that's all we work with, so we know the rates for them. I'll tell you about ours and I'll tell you about the industry a little bit more. So for us, we've done hundreds and hundreds of these things and I would say less than 1% of them have had issue. So we are truly not looking for rates of default. A tornado tore through the neighborhood and tore off the roof. That's an issue. That's not something I can deal with. Right. Guy you're working with dies. It's an issue you got to deal with, right? Like this isn't somebody making a bad deal or run away with the money. This is stuff that you can't predict and is inevitably going to happen in one way, shape or form. So we mitigate the risk as much as possible, but our rates of default or I would say not even default, but just having issue with the loan because most of the stuff it's, you know, maybe discount if you have a something like that, maybe it's your discounting the interest instead of getting the full interest, maybe get partial interest or even no interest, get your money back.


Keith Weinhold (00:26:44) - Like for us, it's like, how do you handle a default is really important because the borrower, there's some risk there, but then there's the lender, there's some risk there. So you have to find a balance that makes everybody happy so that, you know, the borrower is not taking it on the chin because then they're not going to come back. But it's not all in the lender either. So you have to find a balance and work with people. Much like with real estate, you know, you get a bad tenant, so you try to work with them so you still get paid. It's the same kind of thing. But if you look at the industry, the industry is interesting. So I interview a lot of hard money lenders on my show over the years and fascinated to hear what they say and some of the people who do the most or they're in charge of marketplaces of these notes. What they've been telling me for the last few years is think about this way. A lot of these things come from developers or fixing flippers.


Keith Weinhold (00:27:31) - They get their properties out of foreclosure, they get it out of sheriff's sale, they get out of fire or estate sales like these things where they're highly discounted. So during Covid, the courts were shut down for a year and a half. You couldn't get these properties if you were foreclosed on, you couldn't get foreclosed on for two years because the courts weren't open. And when they did open, there was such a backlog of other stuff that was more important than that. They were dealing with like murderers and whatever, rapists, people that actually need to go to jail. And they're not dealing with foreclosures to the same extent. So the courts are backed up for a long period of time. And so when they finally opened up, you start to see a trickle through. You're starting to see more now. But that was a big challenge to the market. So what I've been hearing for the people who are really deep in this market and they see everybody across the board, across the country is they've all said that there's a tidal wave coming.


Keith Weinhold (00:28:24) - And a lot of the problem is, is there are a lot of bad notes out there. So there are people who basically created these notes, right? So they underwrote the notes. They they lent money to somebody with bad terms or is a bad loan like the person should have borrowed or whatever it is, they're still paying. But you see, the quality of the paper is really bad. And what's going to happen is if you see a hiccup in the real estate market, then you're going to see this paper flush through the system because all of a sudden this deal that was marginal is now a bad deal and it flushes through either people default or they sell or whatever. And that stuff has to flush through the system until it does, the market's not going to be efficient. Everyone is waiting around saying, I know there's bad paper out there. I'm trying to find good stuff and it's harder to find, but it's not from a lack of paper, it's from a lack of quality paper. And this happens every real estate cycle.


Keith Weinhold (00:29:19) - Having 2008, nine, ten flushes out the bad people, buy the paper at a discount. You're listening to Get Rejection. We're talking with innovative welcomes Principal Kirk Chisholm when we come back, including his take on where we're going with interest rates and inflation. I'm your host, Keith Lindholm. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in. Returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited. For some of them. It's all backed by real estate. And I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2, jobs, income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 668660.


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Speaker 3 (00:31:16) - This is author Jim Rickards. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Reinhold and Don't Quit Your Day Dream.


Keith Weinhold (00:31:32) - Welcome back to Get Rich. We're talking with Kirk Chisholm. He is the principal and a wealth manager at Innovative Advisory Group. And I like to chat with Kirk and some of these people that have this bigger picture view where they offer clients stock options, real estate options and more. In Kirk, I know you like to say that we're sort of living in a new paradigm and that people are only just now starting to realize this new paradigm, which has to do with interest rates and inflation.


Keith Weinhold (00:32:01) - So tell us about this new paradigm. Let's take us back a few years. So if you think about what's happened in history, I'm a student of history, much like you are, Keith, You look back in history, it's instructive as to how the future may act, right? It's never going to mirror that because it doesn't happen that way, as I think it was. Mark Twain has said that history never repeats, but it rhymes. I'm not sure if that's actually attributed to him, even though people say it is. But point being is if you look back in history for the pretty much starting in like the 70s, we had a period of time and I'm going to come back to the 70s, but we had a period of time where things were volatile, we had high interest rates and we peaked at 20% rates depending on which rate we're talking about. The 30 year treasuries, I think it hit 15%. Fed funds rate hit 20%. So we had some pretty high numbers. And so the subsequent 40 years, interest rates declined for 40 years.


Keith Weinhold (00:32:56) - If you had bought a 15%, 30 year Treasury in 1980, 1981 and held on for the whole 30 years, you would have made 15% for that whole time. And it bottomed out a few years ago. So think about the 70s. Like, here's the economy, right? I got my hands together. Here's the economy. This is what it looks like, right? It's this size Now. If you start injecting leverage, you get a mortgage on your real estate. That's leverage. The company borrows money. That's leverage. Right? So you're borrowing money. So your borrowing future cash flows to use today. So let's say I own a home outright and I decide, hey, I want to borrow money to go buy a motorcycle, whatever. Okay. Well, I just increased the economy size because I borrowed money, right? So I've increased the amount of money in circulation from 1983 81 until pretty much a few years ago, the interest rates went from a high amount of 20% down to close to zero.


Keith Weinhold (00:33:51) - Now, the lower the interest rates, the more you can borrow. So if you think about the economy, it kept increasing as rates drop because you can borrow more and more money. Now, how much money can you borrow? A 0%. Keith An infinite amount, in theory, yes. As much as they'll give you. And how much? If it's negative, I don't know. I'm going to borrow a bunch of people and borrow their money like and we get into this crazy period we had a few years ago where there actually negative rates in Japan still does. But the point is, is the lower the rate, the bigger the economy can be because you're allowed to leverage more and it means you can borrow more money and use that money for other things. And now that's a problem because you're borrowing future cash flows to use today. So at some point you got to pay that back one way, shape or form or another. The thing is, is that is increased the size of the economy over this time.


Keith Weinhold (00:34:37) - So the paradigm from the early 80s until a few years ago was one of leverage and growth. And there's a lot of things went into that globalization, outsourcing to China and Asia, technology, all these things influence this growth of the economy. But then in 2021, we hit the lowest rates. We hit mortgage rates at 2.5%. Fed funds rates were low, Treasuries were low, and they started raising rates in 2022. So the economy now started to shrink because you can borrow less. Now, it didn't actually shrink, but I'm using this for illustrative purposes. So if I'm looking at this big, huge balloon and think of it as a balloon, right? You start as there's no air in it, you blow it up with air, you get this huge balloon. Well, as rates go up, you start to let air out of the balloon because you can't sustain high interest rates because it comes down to cash flow. So what ends up happening is as rates go up, the economy effectively starts to shrink over time because if low rates help it expand, higher rates will contract it.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:39) - But it doesn't happen today or tomorrow. It happens over years, as the economy did in the last 40 years. So the paradigm we had changed two years ago and now we have high interest rates and the economy is shrinking to acclimate to this new higher rate environment. So you could have bought mortgage for 2.5% for 30 years on the house. You bought a $500,000 house, 2.5%. You probably would have paid, I think, $3,700 a month rate. You're paying $3,700 a month. That's where you can afford. And most people were doing that, so they bought as much as they could afford. However, now mortgage rates are seven and a quarter at seven and a half. That $3,700 a month mortgage is now doubled. So now you're looking at about a $7,400 a month mortgage. I can't afford $7,400 a month, so I can't buy that same price house. Now, the house price to accommodate that has to decline. And I'm using real Estate Illustrated because it also I'll tell you in a minute so the house price has declined to accommodate that higher payments because people can only buy what they can afford.


Keith Weinhold (00:36:43) - Now take that illustration and overlay that into corporate America, because companies do the same thing. They borrow as much as they can get away with. As you say, with mortgages, it's fixed. It doesn't affect me because it's fixed. And same thing with corporations doesn't affect me. It's fixed. That's correct. Which is why it doesn't impact the economy immediately. But it does impact it over time because with the 30 year mortgage, you never have to move. But if you do have to move, you're in trouble. If you own commercial property, you don't have 30 years, you might have a five or a ten year mortgage, which is going to roll at some point in time and hopefully rates are lower. But if they're not now, you've got some explaining to do, right? In corporate America, there's a lot of companies that get, you know, short term debt that's going to roll over at a higher rate. How are they going to afford it? Johnson, Johnson, Apple, Microsoft, they can afford it, but can borderline junk bonds, companies that are low quality, that are just making it, barely making it buy in cash flow because they can borrow money? What about them? Well, they're going to be forced to make hard decisions or go into bankruptcy.


Keith Weinhold (00:37:48) - So what higher rates do? It basically cleans up the economy by taking out the inefficient players and forcing some into bankruptcy, foreclosures, whatever it may be, it effectively will clean up the market, but it also caused the economy to shrink. So it destroys capital. And if we have rates that are higher for longer than, let's say a few more months, if they're higher for 5 or 10 years, it's going to be a problem. And I think we're going to have higher rates a lot longer than most people think. The market is predicting another six months they're going to drop rates. They've been saying that for the last year. So I don't think they're accurate. I think it's going to be at least a year, maybe two, and then we'll see what happens. Hard to see that far out, but people need to be become acclimated to these higher rates for a while because if you look at historically, these aren't that high. Their average rates. Yeah, they're right in the mean like we're not high historically.


Keith Weinhold (00:38:43) - If you look at bond yields I mean you look at late 90s, you've got up to 6%. I think you've got to 6 or 7% and depending on what you're investing in. So we are not high and default rates are not high. Default rates for high yield bonds historically are 7%. I think we're like 1% like last 15 years. So the numbers that we saw were extreme examples of the economy. And we're going to find a happy balance somewhere. And I don't know where that is, but this new paradigm is about reassessing the assumptions you're making about your investments, about the economy and any assumption what are interest rates going to be? What's inflation going to be? These are things that people never even thought of. They just assumed, Oh, inflation is going to be 3%, I'll just use that. Or interest rates, they're going to be similar. You can't make those assumptions anymore. You have to have broader. Lateral testing of whether this is going to work or not. You've done a great job of breaking down that new paradigm where basically that 40 year period from 1981 to 2021, we had gradually declining interest rates and something in 2021, that's where things changed and we entered into a new paradigm of increasing interest rates.


Keith Weinhold (00:39:55) - So as we're winding down here, you stated you think that we will have persistently higher rates for quite a while. So many people have been saying a recession is just around the corner for so long. It's sort of annoying to really think about it. But as we know, with the recession, that generally correlates with a lowering of interest rates. But you don't see that happening by next year, say, with a lowering of interest rates that corresponds with a recession. What you said is recessions typically correlate with lower rates. You're correct. But what if they don't? I'll give you some examples here of why things are different and why it matters. So if the last 20 plus years, if we had a recession or even a sniff of a recession, the Fed would drop rates, print money, they would boost the markets back up. Everything would be fine. Right. Problems solved. Right? The world's going to end. Don't worry. Here comes the Fed to the rescue. They did that for 20 years.


Keith Weinhold (00:40:49) - But now we have high inflation. So with high inflation, they can't do that because if they do that, it causes inflation to spike, much like the 70s. Now they're not oblivious to the 70s. They know full well what happened and they don't want to repeat it. What they're saying has been pretty clear. We're going to make sure we kill inflation. We don't want it coming back. It is very probable that we have inflation dipped down into two even 0% this year. There's the probability is low, but it's probability we could hit 0% inflation by the end of the year. However, I don't think it's going to stay there because we tend to get a bullwhip effect, which we've seen in many commodity prices, lumber in particular, where the prices go up and then too many people, they make too much lumber to sell and then there's a glut and then it goes lower and then it goes higher because, you know, so you get this bullwhip effect, which is a problem which caused and it's the same thing with inflation, right? You get this bullwhip effect because the changes have been too drastic that people can't adjust, so they over adjust, are under adjust, and that causes this big change.


Keith Weinhold (00:41:50) - So I think we're going to have a dip back to inflation, probably not 8%. But when that happens, they're going to have to come back and raise rates. So what they're trying to do is they're trying to keep rates higher, longer to make sure inflation doesn't come back. We're really in this back and forth of where are we going to go, where's the Fed going to take us? And if it tends to be five years of high rates, that's going to really impact the economy and eventually we will hit a recession. But I think the probability is showing very low probability of recession anytime soon because it's not playing out in the data. Some data is showing yes, some data is showing no. But when I start to see that, it means it just doesn't matter. It's not going to show up. Well, that's some good perspective, Kirk. CPI inflation peaked at.


Speaker 3 (00:42:36) - 9.1%.


Keith Weinhold (00:42:37) - A little over a year ago. It's at 3% now. But yeah, one place where I agree with you, Kirk, is, yeah, the Fed sure does not want to see that pop back up again.


Keith Weinhold (00:42:48) - And within the Fed's dual mandate of high employment and stable prices, it seems like they're prioritizing stable prices over keeping employment high, that's for sure. Well, yeah, there's been a great wide ranging chat.


Speaker 3 (00:43:01) - With interest.


Keith Weinhold (00:43:02) - Rates.


Speaker 3 (00:43:03) - Inflation stocks, real estate and producing income from both of them. Kirk If our audience wants to reach out to you or learn more about what you do, they're at Innovative Advisory Group. How can they do that?


Keith Weinhold (00:43:15) - Thanks, Keith. So yeah, the best way people can find me, I'm really easy to find. They can go to my podcast, Money Tree. Podcast. Com. We have two shows a week. One show we interview really intelligent investors like Keith, for example. We have the second episode is really more of a timely what's going on the markets this week, what's new, what's changed? Just so we can kind of keep people up to date with what's going on and if people are really looking to find out more about me and my services, you can go to Innovative Wealth and I've written all the blog posts there, but our company provides wealth management services for people, whether it's financial planning or portfolio management.


Keith Weinhold (00:43:52) - That's a lot of what we do. So like I said, I'm easy to find and I'm pretty easygoing guys. So if you're interested, you can find me there.


Speaker 3 (00:43:58) - Kirk Chisholm, Innovative Wealth. It's been great having you here. Thanks so much for coming on to the show.


Keith Weinhold (00:44:04) - Thanks for having me, Keith.


Speaker 3 (00:44:10) - Yeah. Well, Kirk Chisholm, he thinks that higher interest rates will linger longer. And he told us why. Now, Historically, it takes 3 to 5 quarters for interest rate hikes to hit the economy. Rate increases begin in March of 2022, but Americans are sitting on lots of cash. So many think that this recession that's perpetually just around the corner won't begin until at least next year. One benefit of a recession coming is that people will stop spreading undue concern.


Keith Weinhold (00:44:45) - About.


Speaker 3 (00:44:45) - A recession Coming Coming up here on the show, lots of great real estate investing strategy sessions forthcoming, not just big picture impacts like the direction of rents, home prices and interest rates, but also how to improve your operational efficiencies, like how to tamp down on higher property insurance premiums and more including what today's market for new build for plex's like investing in America's intermountain West and more.


Speaker 3 (00:45:14) - Until next week. I'm your host, Keith White. Don't quit your daydream.


Speaker 4 (00:45:21) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 3 (00:45:50) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.



Direct download: GREepisode460_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

Watch the video of today's podcast intro here

Are starter homes a thing of the past? Did the Fed just win? I provide commentary and perspective on both.

Hear clips from: Donald Trump, Jamie Dimon, and Jerome Powell.

Then, I answer four listener questions:

Should I make my first real estate investment a new development from raw land?

Does it make sense to sell some rental properties, pay off others, and make my life easier?

My returns are down because my property repair bills are higher than expected. What should I do?

Since the government has high debt, won’t they keep printing dollars?

If you have a listener question, ask it here:


The state of the real estate economy [00:00:01]

Home prices and housing supply [00:01:33]

Analysis of home prices reaching new highs, the decrease in new listings, and the impact on housing supply.

Mortgage rates and the future of interest rates [00:03:54]

Insights on the direction of mortgage rates, the unlikelihood of rates returning to the 3% range, and the opinions of Lawrence Yun, the chief economist at the NAR.

The Fed's Soft Landing [00:10:31]

Discussion on the Federal Reserve's efforts to control inflation and maintain economic stability.

Building Development as a First Investment [00:12:49]

Advice on whether it is a good idea for beginners to invest in land development and the challenges involved.

Acquiring More Property or Paying Down Debt [00:19:02]

Advice on whether to continue acquiring properties or pay off existing debt and downsize for a more enjoyable life.

The philosophy of debt [00:21:11]

Debt can be beneficial and indicate wealth, as seen in examples of successful individuals with high levels of debt.

Managing repair costs for rental properties [00:24:18]

Charging tenants for the first portion of repair bills can incentivize them to make minor repairs themselves and reduce long-term repair costs.

Inflation and government debt [00:30:12]

Inflation can debase government debt, reducing its value, similar to how it affects personal debt. The US government's ability to print money allows for easier repayment of debt.

The housing supply and marketplace [00:31:30]

Discussion on the historically low US housing supply and the importance of staying up to date with the inventory and other elements in the real estate market.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

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text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:



Complete episode transcript:


Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. First, I'll discuss the surprising state of the real estate economy. Then I answer your listener question Should I develop and build property myself? How do I keep my rental properties repair bill down? And two questions about real estate debt all today on Get Rich Education with real estate capital Jacksonville. Real estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor since 2013. JTB is ready to help your money make money and to make it easy for everyday investors. Get started at JWB Real Estate.


Speaker 2 (00:01:01) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:01:24) - Welcome to the area from Warsaw, Poland, to Warsaw, Indiana, and across 188 nations worldwide. And Keith Weinhold in your listening to Get Rich Education.


Speaker 1 (00:01:33) - Earlier this month, CNBC reported that home prices have hit new highs again, another up just slightly year over year, though the popular sentiment is that by now people have gotten used to paying 7% or even more than 7% mortgage rates and higher rates. That puts the squeeze on housing supply. I mean, gosh, within this era of already paltry supply, I mean, we're talking about direly few homes in some markets here. Nationally, new listings are down 25% from a year ago. All right. Now, that's all national stuff. But look now, just over half of the nation's 50 largest housing markets and they're mostly in the Midwest and Northeast. They have either returned to their prior price peaks or they have set new all time highs. Annual home prices are still weaker out west, but even some of the Western markets has slumped. They're now seeing month over month gains. Yes, we're talking about gains now even in San Jose, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Seattle. Now, look, our starter homes, a thing of the past.


Speaker 1 (00:02:47) - Some now think so with these higher prices. Just listen to this from an NAR survey, 40% of millennials who bought homes last year, they plan to stay in them 16 years or more. And for Gen Z, that number jumps up to 48%. Now, who knows if they'll really stay in those homes at that long. But see, what's going on here is just affirmation that so many buyers don't plan to trade in their starter home for a move up home. They got their starter homes when rates were low, though starter homes are not coming onto the market, potential sellers have ghosted the market, making for fewer listings and those fewer listings. That's what's fueling the price growth. So yes, starter homes could largely be a thing of the past, but of course not completely. Now, just two weeks ago here on the show, Jim Rogers told us why long term, he thinks interest rates will go much higher and opinions can be all over the place. So I don't want to get too bogged down in that.


Speaker 1 (00:03:54) - But shorter term, one prominent commentator, he is now emphatic that mortgage rates have hit their top, like, for example, hit their top for perhaps this year and next year. Lawrence Yun, chief economist at the NAR on the direction of mortgage rates. He says, quote, This is the top. It will begin to move down. But you can also says if you're a US home buyer waiting for a return to super low mortgage rates, don't hold your breath. The short lived era of 3% interest rates for 30 year fixed mortgages, that is over, and they are unlikely to return anytime soon, perhaps for decades. He goes on to say that one can never truly predict the future but don't see mortgage rates returning back to the 3% range in the remainder of my lifetime. That is all of what Yun said. Okay. The remainder of Lawrence Hoon's lifetime, he looks pretty healthy and that might be 40 years, 40 plus years. Did we see rates that low again, according to him? Now, did you see this? We posted this in our Instagram stories as our curious article of the week last week.


Speaker 1 (00:05:07) - The Washington Post get a hold of this title. They published an article and it was titled The Housing Market Recession is Already Ending. My preeminent thought is the housing market recession is already ending. That's a curious headline. What housing market recession? I don't get it. And the subtitle doesn't help. It's subtitled Last year's downturn in the housing market didn't last even with higher interest rates. Now prices are stabilizing. Is supply chains have eased up. All right. Well, even with actually reading the complete article, I don't know what they mean by a housing market recession last year. I guess that national home prices stopped appreciating last year and they just stabilized. But I don't know how the heck you get a recession out of that. Maybe with low housing supply, there were fewer transactions and that was being considered a recession. Now, look, I'm going to posit something really unpopular here in today's climate, but I think that this is a question that you really need to ask yourself today, and that is, did Jerome Powell just win? I told you it was unpopular.


Speaker 1 (00:06:20) - He's not a very well liked. Person in a lot of circles. But with CPI inflation at 9% last year and 3% now. Yet throughout this spin, we had a few banks that broke but no recession. Is it possible that Jerome Powell has engineered a soft landing? I've got more on that in a moment. But the actual person of one, Donald, John Trump, made some quick remarks about the economy this month. Let's listen in.


Speaker 3 (00:06:52) - We've never had an economy like we had just three years ago. It was unbelievable. And frankly, this economy is not doing well. But the reason it's doing okay is it's running on the fumes of what we built. But those fumes are running out and they're running out fast. And it's not going to be a pretty picture.


Speaker 1 (00:07:11) - Yeah, I don't know about that. When we look at the broader US economy, let's get something more substantive. And speaking of people that aren't well liked, Jamie Dimon had some great perspective. I think you know that he's the billionaire business exec and the banker that's led JPMorgan Chase since 2005.


Speaker 1 (00:07:30) - To put it another way. This man runs the largest bank in America.


Speaker 4 (00:07:36) - It's the other way around. America has the best hand ever dealt of any country on this planet today ever. Okay. And Americans don't fully appreciate what I'm about to say. We have peaceful, wonderful neighbors in Canada and Mexico. We've got the biggest military barriers ever built called the Atlantic and the Pacific. We have all the food, water and energy we will ever need. Okay. We have the best military on the planet, and we will for as long as we have the best economy. And if you're a liberal, listen closely to me in that one, okay? Because the Chinese would love to have our economy. We have the best universities on the planet. There are great ones elsewhere. But these are the best. We still educate most most of the kids who start businesses around the world. We have a rule of law which is exceptional. If you don't believe me and we talk about Britain, Brazil, Russia, India, Venezuela, Argentina, China, India, believe me, it's not quite there.


Speaker 4 (00:08:29) - We have a magnificent work ethic. We have innovation from the core of our bones. You can ask anyone in this room what you can do to be more productive. Ask your assistants, factory floors, redo it. It's not just the Steve Jobs. It's this broad death with the wires and deepest financial markets the world's ever seen. Okay. And if you. I just made a list of these things and maybe I miss something. It's extraordinary. It's extraordinary. And we have it today. Yes, we have problems. But, you know, when I hear people down, if you travel around the world, I mean, get an airplane, travel around the world and go to all these other countries and tell me what you think.


Speaker 1 (00:09:02) - Yeah, Jamie Dimon really bringing up a lot of those geographic advantages like Peterson and I discuss in depth here Diamond's remarks. They're not new remarks. Those weren't recent ones. And by the way, I don't really care for him calling out liberals, just like labeling people conservatives.


Speaker 1 (00:09:20) - That's counterproductive. I like the quality of ideas as soon as we start labeling things left or right, that quickly becomes more divisive than it does unifying. Don't do left right politics. I do. Up, down, up is integrity. The quality of your ideas concepts means for getting things done and track record. That's what matters. But anyway, coming off Jamie Dimon waxing poetic with American optimism and exceptionalism. Yeah, it is time to ask if the Fed is winning. And first, let's understand something fundamental The fact that high inflation occurred for two years that is irreparable. Let's not overlook that. I mean, you're Trader Joe's grocery store prices. They're not coming back down even if the rate of inflation has slowed. I mean, that is a big fat L, That is a loss. It came from printing all those dollars to paper over the pandemic, which created the high inflation with everything from the paycheck protection program to Stemi checks to the Cares Act. And yes, the executive branch created some of that too.


Speaker 1 (00:10:31) - But my point is, make the irresponsible people that don't have any savings feel some pain once in a while. If you just make money fall from the sky every time there's a crisis, then people are going to learn to not have any reserves or any cash flowing investments during the next crisis. Yes, supply chain constraints are part of the problem too. But since you tried to paper over the pain, see then creating that inflation that results, that makes everyone feel the pain that's middle class or below. All right. But after that understanding, is Jerome Powell now winning by landing the inflation softly without crashing the economy and keeping GDP rising a little in keeping unemployment low in see even the producers price index that's forward looking that measures this change. In selling prices of goods and services producers. That's falling out, right? That leading indicator for consumer price inflation. And that's why inflation expectations are finally dropping. And that doesn't mean that I like the Fed or the system at all. But by now you've at least got to begin to wonder if the Fed can get their soft landing.


Speaker 1 (00:11:47) - They've dropped down from 30,000 foot cruising altitude. There's no turbulence, and they're below, call it, 10,000ft. Now, for the first time in two years, wages are finally rising faster than prices.


Speaker 4 (00:12:01) - We at the Fed remain squarely focused on.


Speaker 1 (00:12:04) - Our dual mandate.


Speaker 4 (00:12:05) - To promote.


Speaker 1 (00:12:05) - Maximum employment and stable.


Speaker 4 (00:12:06) - Prices for the American people.


Speaker 1 (00:12:08) - Yes, sir. That is your job after all. Well, I want to turn to your listener questions here for the remainder of the show. And if you've got a question for me, you can always reach out at Get Rich education, slash contact. The first question comes from Tina in Monroe, Louisiana. She says, Keith, I love your show. Just started listening last month. Tina asks Keith, I have the idea of buying land and I want to know if this is a good idea to build new rentals on. Like for Plex's, I've already formed an LLC and hope to open a business line of credit, but this would be my first ever real estate investment.


Speaker 1 (00:12:49) - Okay, Tina, thanks for finding the show here. Welcome in. I expect that you'll have years of profitable listening ahead to start a new development from digging raw dirt all the way through to procuring your certificates of occupancy and have that be your very first investment for almost anyone. I have got to say no because there is just so much to development. Development is going to rely on your experience and your ability to build a team. You're going to need general contractors and subcontractors and vendors, suppliers and experience dealing with regulators and a municipality and bankers and perhaps investors. And legal development is risky for beginners. You're purchasing something that doesn't yet exist. You've got to be sure that you're buying the right land in the right place. And that means studying everything from geotechnical reports and Perc tests to understanding the demographics, whether you plan to buy that land there in Monroe, Louisiana, or wherever else it is, and then your exit strategy. And while it might not actually be to exit, but it's going to be either to sell your completed development or for you to hold it for rental income, you have really got to know what you're doing.


Speaker 1 (00:14:13) - I am not a developer, but I talked to a lot of them, especially build to rent developers. Now, the reason that I say that the answer is no for development as your first real estate investment for almost anyone. Well, I say almost because if you have a remarkable mentor, someone that's going to go out in the field with you almost every day, then it's a possibility. And even then that mentor should have a proven track record. You need approvals and subdivision and plans drawn and bringing in drainage and utilities and entitlement mean instead of all that for a beginner and really even for most veteran investors, it is substantially easier to buy something that's already built, that has a history of rental occupancy and income. And then the team that you have to build a so much smaller with that primary long term team member as your property manager. But thank you for the question, Tina, because I think a lot of real estate investors wonder about building themselves from raw land. And it seems that even more investors right in here wondering about, you know, just building one individual single family rental home or duplex or fourplex.


Speaker 1 (00:15:25) - And even then, if it's successfully done, it usually takes longer than you think. And then once you're done, the property is vacant and you need to find tenants. So it might be a few more months before it even cash flows. So buy property that's already built, learn investing that way. And what you've done is you've outsourced all of the development unknowns to someone else and they bring you the known and completed development project that is better for more than 99% of people. And then look into being a developer yourself when you've got sufficient experience. If that remains interesting to you, a great mentor with a proven track record or both, if you'd like to ask a question and potentially have me answer it on air here again, go ahead and reach out through get ratification smash contact because that's where you can either leave a voice message or a written one. I am just. Getting started with listener questions. I'm back with more of them. Straight ahead. I'm Keith Reinhold in You're listening to episode 459 of Get Rich Education.


Speaker 1 (00:16:30) - If you want some really passive income, listen to this. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing personally, I put my own dollars with freedom family investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in. Returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25. K. You don't even need to be accredited. For some of them. It's all backed by real estate and I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2, jobs, income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 668660, and this isn't a solicitation If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six six, 866. Jerry listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 42056.


Speaker 1 (00:17:43) - They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four Plex's. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge personally, though, even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group.


Speaker 5 (00:18:12) - This is Jerry Operations lead Andrea Newburn. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Reinhold and don't put your daydream.


Speaker 1 (00:18:29) - You're listening to the show. It's created more financial freedom for busy people just like you than nearly any show in the world. This is guitarist Education. I'm your host, Keith Reinhold. The next question comes from Adam. He is a real estate agent in Seattle. And Adam asks this. Hi, Keith. I've been an avid listener and follower of yours for years now. Like you, the Little Purple Book changed my life early on and I was able to semi retire at age 35. The book that he's talking about, by the way, is that Poor Dad, I am 42 now and back working as a realtor because I love it.


Speaker 1 (00:19:02) - And then after he wrote I Love It in parentheses, he put well, sorta. So I don't know that he loves it too much and I am at a crossroad in my life. Do I keep acquiring more property and more debt or do I start paying down the properties I do have? I have seven properties now and with a mindset of less is more as I want to enjoy my life a bit more and I'm honestly getting tired of managing my three in state properties. Therefore I've been thinking about selling one to pay off the loan of two other properties and really start to downsize and truly be debt free. Life is too short and I want to enjoy the rest of my life. Do you have any advice or opinions for me? Thank you in advance. Okay. Adam. Well, since you've listened for years, you probably already understand that I don't pay off any of my properties, though I could. I don't want to. I'd lose leverage in all that. You probably understand that I don't self manage.


Speaker 1 (00:20:01) - You said that you self-manage three of your seven properties there in Washington state. So since you probably already understand all that, yes, I would acquire more property, more debt and outsource the property management. That way you can enjoy life if the property is in your home state, don't have high rents in proportion to their values. In a lot of places around Seattle, they don't have a high ratio there. Well then it's probably worth 1030 running into out of state property. Or if you really like those Washington properties, then find a property manager there in state and to find a suitable 1031 exchange facilitator with a proven track record, check the resources tab at GRI That same website will help you find out-of-state properties if you like. You can also contact our coaches to help walk you through that at That is a free coaching service by the way. Now as far as keeping the instate Washington properties, if you decide that you do want to do that, the bigger Pockets forums can help you vet a qualified property manager there.


Speaker 1 (00:21:11) - Now, Adam, you did say something about the possibility of downsizing and becoming truly debt free, as you put it. But my question is, what's the problem with debt if someone else reliably pays it all for you? Of course your tenant pays a principal and interest and hopefully a little on top of that called cash flow. All right. In that case, all of that debt is outsourced. Now, let me get a little philosophical for a minute. I don't know the name of the person that's the biggest debtor in the entire world. But you know what? He is probably really wealthy or she all circle back to why in a second. Here's a fun way to understand this. The quarterback threw the most interceptions of all time. Oh, you must think that guy is a total loser. Well, you know what? The quarterback that's thrown the most interceptions all time by far is in fact, a Hall of Famer Brett Farve. Oh, well, how can that be? Well, it's because he got so many chances to play.


Speaker 1 (00:22:17) - He must have been a pretty good quarterback for the coach to put him on the field. Then often year after year, the baseball pitcher that lost the most ever games for his team all time, he is named Cy Young. Well, Cy Young also won the most games all time in Major League Baseball. He was one of the very first inductees into the Hall of Fame. And there's even an award given each year. Still, the most outstanding Major League Baseball player called the Cy Young Award. Yet he lost the most games and say, did you meet a guy on the street there where you live and you learn that he has $20 million in debt? I don't even need to know anything else right there. That tells me that he's probably a financial winner to have that much debt because, see, he would need to be highly credit worthy to even get all that debt in the first place. See, you're only looking at the $20 million debt side of his balance sheet. His asset side might be $50 million.


Speaker 1 (00:23:16) - Hey, that's a $30 million net worth. Even with high inflation, $30 million is fairly wealthy today and mad as Mark Zuckerberg is one of the wealthiest people in the world, he has a net worth. North of $100 billion. And the Zuckerbergs, they took a loan for their home even though they could pay cash for it many times over. And yet when Zuckerberg and his wife bought their home, they took out a loan for the leverage and the arbitrage. The wealthiest people in the world have the most debt AI model that you can model that I personally look to increase my debt as time goes on. And then simultaneously, I expect the asset side to increase faster than the debt side. The asset side increases faster because I've got the debt, hence the leverage. So this is why I have an aversion to being debt free. I hope there's both some helpful resources and a philosophical component for you to chew on there as well. Adam The next listener question comes from Heiko in Utica, New York. Sorry if I mispronounce your name.


Speaker 1 (00:24:18) - It's spelled at Jaakko. Maybe it's Jocko, but I'm going to go with Jocko. He asks. I've held my first ever purchase of a rental single family home for a little over a year. It's located in Holladay, Florida, though my property was projected to provide a cash on cash return of 6%, it only produced 3% because repairs cost more than expected On this 1978 built property. I use a local property manager that's been pretty communicative. I always anticipate reading my monthly email statement from him, just wondering how to manage costs over time. Signed Jocko. Okay. Jocko And by the way, I own rental single family homes myself, just about five miles from Holladay, Florida. And these areas are just north of Tampa. Well, Co only getting 3% rather than a projected 6%. It's actually not a terrible miss. Now, it would be if that were your only revenue source or your only return from an investment. But of course, this 3% cash on cash return is one of your five profit sources from income property.


Speaker 1 (00:25:28) - But suffice to say, one great long term strategy to keep myriad repair costs down over time. And it's something that Ken McElroy told me about, and that is charge the tenant for the first $50 in repairs or maybe charge the tenant for the first $100 of repairs. That way they're going to think twice before bugging you or bugging your manager. Now, this can have the desired effect of keeping your long term repair bill down in a few different ways, but yet ensure that you're still serving the tenant. All right. First of all, the first 50 or $100 a repair bill, it's really not that burdensome to most tenants, but yet they will think twice before calling you or it's calling your manager, in this case, Jocko, before calling about something ticky tacky and minor like the kitchen cabinet doors got a little loose on their hinges again. Now you want to provide clean, safe, affordable, functional housing. That is a core concept in mission here. At first, this might incentivize the tenant to make a 10 or 15 minute repair themselves so that you never even hear from them.


Speaker 1 (00:26:43) - And that also prevents, say, a $75 service call from being made in the first place. Now, if it's a repair that's beyond the tenants expertise or expectations to take care of themselves, say it's something like a kitchen faucet that just leaks a little, well, okay, you want to see that that's taken care of for them. But if they have to pay the first small portion of repairs themselves, then that incentivizes the tenant to report a number of small things in one batch. All right. Well, now, that makes it more efficient for you or for your property managers handyman. That makes for fewer service calls, fewer runs to Home Depot and a real reduction in your repair cost. See? Hello. The work from home movement. That's being good for us as residential real estate investors. But there is one downside to that. A few more tenants spend all day at home and there are more components that can wear out sooner. Or there's this more time that tenants spend at home to notice little things that are amiss.


Speaker 1 (00:27:47) - So that's why the time in the real estate market is right to charge the first portion of repair bills to the tenant. That's why this makes sense now. Now, there are a couple caveats around this. Hello. When the tenant first moves in, I'll go ahead and give them a week to bring you any findings and then those things should be taken care of without charging the tenant anything at all. Right? I mean, the tenant shouldn't have to inherit any problems. And the other caveat is that your tenant has to be communicative about items in disrepair that could create long term damage, like a leaky drain, because you don't want that to ruin your subfloor over. Time. So the short answer on how to lower your long term repair bills, especially in a work from home world, is to have it in the lease that the tenant pays for, say, the first $50 to $100 of repairs. Also, you may have heard it just ten episodes ago on episode 449, I discussed 12 ways that you can raise the red in add value to your property.


Speaker 1 (00:28:52) - There's a good bit of related content there to help you keep profitable and get your cash on cash return up. Now, plenty of properties. In fact, probably most properties have exceeded their return projections over the last three years, and that is primarily due to rapid appreciation. But see, you don't get the lessons from the winds, you get the lessons from the underperformers. And that's why I wanted to answer your question for everyone's benefit today. Taco Tacos question was microeconomics. Let's flip it to macroeconomics with this. Next question from Dave in Atlanta, Georgia. Davis This one a while ago. First, here's the remarkable part on the listener question form in the how did you hear about a section, Dave? You simply wrote, I've been listening to you from the very beginning. Gosh, Dave, this is so supremely appreciated. I know we've got a lot of great devotees and I'm incredibly grateful for it. Dave asks With the US government, 30 trillion in debt and there's some rounding there and if inflation is say 10% over a few years, doesn't inflation debase the government's debt just like it does ours, taking it from 30 trillion down to $27 trillion in this case? Yeah, that stays.


Speaker 1 (00:30:12) - Question That's right, Dave. You've 100% got it. I've talked about this in some prior episodes. Since we get to borrow our mortgage loans in the currency that's denominated in the units of the biggest detonation in the history of the world, the dollar in the USA, then they want to print Dave, just like you. If you had $1 million in debt but you couldn't pay it back right now and you had the ability to print dollars ad infinitum, then sure, the easiest way for you to pay back your debt is to print your own dollars, just like America is doing. And that is just another benefit of you keeping high debt on your properties. In fact, the true definition of inflation is an expansion of the money supply. It's not the result, which is a decline in purchasing power. Technically, if the same Chipotle burrito costs $10 last year at $11 this year, that's not inflation. That's the result of inflation. So the USA wants inflation for this reason and other reasons. I've said it before, the surest been investing is that the dollar is going to continue to decline in purchasing power and that's exactly why we are debtors rather than savers.


Speaker 1 (00:31:30) - Take the sure thing. Thanks for the listenership and thanks for the question, Dave. That's all for listener questions. I encourage you to help yourself out. No one's looking out for you more than you amiss. Historically low US housing supply. Gerri Marketplace is where the inventory actually is, and it's the right inventory. The properties that make the best rentals. Real estate pays five ways style. And the selection changes, of course, based on inventory and other elements. So stay up to date. And if you haven't lately, go ahead and log in. There are free coaching service is becoming popular as well in why not it's like your own concierge personal one on one if you want that it is all there for you at gray I'll be here with you to run it back next week. I'm your host Keith Wayne a little bit. Don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 6 (00:32:35) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice.


Speaker 6 (00:32:45) - Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 1 (00:33:03) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.



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In this podcast episode, host Keith Weinhold introduces Scott Saunders, a successful real estate investor who shares his insights and experiences in building a portfolio of 64 single-family rental properties. 

They discuss the advantages of investing in cash-flowing rental properties, the importance of focusing on cash flow in the early stages, and the benefits of single-family rentals compared to multifamily properties. 

Scott also discusses his analysis of different markets for real estate investment and his approach to financing and leveraging his investments. 

They emphasize the importance of seeking professional advice and using resources like for wealth building.


The advantages of single family rentals [00:06:22]

Scott discusses the advantages of investing in single family rentals, including better cap rates, long-term fixed-rate financing, and the inherent demand for single family homes.

Greater liquidity with single family rentals [00:08:31]

Scott and Keith talk about the liquidity component of single family rentals, highlighting that even in a recession, people will still need a place to live and therefore be buyers of single family homes.

Longer tenancy duration in single family rentals [00:09:34]

The discussion focuses on how tenants tend to stay longer in single family homes and duplexes compared to larger apartment buildings, often due to factors such as larger square footage and the desire to be in a specific school district.

The importance of cash flow at the beginning [00:11:34]

Starting with cash flow-centric properties and gradually moving towards appreciation as the portfolio grows.

Scaling up the portfolio with short-term targets [00:14:55]

Setting 90-day targets to buy a specific number of properties, leading to significant progress in a year.

Factors in selecting the next market to buy in [00:18:24]

Considerations include having a communicative property manager and existing opportunities in a market rather than solely focusing on a good deal.

The importance of relationships in real estate investing [00:19:18]

Scott discusses the significance of having a good relationship with property managers and asset providers in different markets.

Factors to consider when choosing a real estate market [00:20:18]

Scott talks about the importance of factors such as job growth, a diversified economy, and an influx of people when selecting a market to invest in.

Using inflation as a tailwind in real estate investing [00:23:54]

Scott explains how he leverages inflation to his advantage by locking in assets today and using inflation to propel his investing forward.

The importance of 30-year fixed rate financing [00:28:12]

Scott discusses the benefits of locking in a 30-year fixed rate for financing and shares his experience during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Using paid-off assets as collateral for future financing [00:29:11]

Scott explains his strategy of paying off some properties to use them as collateral for obtaining loans for future investments.

Managing properties and involving family in real estate business [00:31:19]

Scott talks about using Excel to track his rental income and involving his daughter in managing the financials of his real estate business.

The goal of acquiring lifestyle assets [00:36:34]

Scott Saunders discusses his long-term goal of purchasing properties in Tuscany, Italy, Steamboat Springs, Colorado, and other locations for both enjoyment and return on investment.

The importance of return on attention [00:38:01]

Scott explains the concept of return on attention, which focuses on having the freedom to enjoy life without being constantly distracted by financial concerns.

The impact of purchasing single-family rentals [00:40:07]

Scott emphasizes the benefits of purchasing 5 to 10 single-family rental properties, which can provide economic freedom and significantly improve one's financial situation.

The disclaimer [00:46:07]

The speaker provides a disclaimer stating that the show does not provide specific advice and encourages listeners to seek professional advice.

Introduction [00:46:35]

The speaker introduces the show and mentions the website as the home for wealth building.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Scott Saunders’ resources:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

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Complete episode transcript:


Speaker 1 (00:00:00) - Welcome to. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. A follower has built a multi-state portfolio of 64 single family rental properties. He'll tell us how he's doing it, how he finances them all, his management technique and his guiding success principles today on Get Rich education. With real estate capital Jacksonville. Real estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor since 2013. GWB is ready to help your money make money and to make it easy for everyday investors. Get started at GWB Real estate agree that's GWB real slash.


Speaker 2 (00:01:00) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:01:23) - Hey, welcome to GRE. From the tropical currents in the Gulf of Mexico to the icy waters of Hudson Bay across the Americas in 188 world nations, this is get rich education where we just reach the 5 million listener download.


Speaker 1 (00:01:37) - Mark, I am grateful to you for that. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Hey, a little context before we chat with our listener guests about the architecture of how he's building this robust 64 single family homes portfolio in growing across nine US states Once in a while. I like to drop things back for just a minute in case perhaps you're new here and you wonder how do people buy so many rental homes like adding ten every year? How am I supposed to do that? Well, of course, your speed of growth is going to be predicated on your income and some other things. But the best long term single-family rental homes, they're not 500 homes. They tend to be more like 200,000 homes in areas that are not upscale but yet safe, where you use a 20 to 25% down payment. And if you're new here and you have an aversion to debt, you know, I think that the simplest, most reassuring thing that I can tell a newcomer about real estate debt in just one sentence is that in a cash flowing rental, the tenant pays all of the debt for you, the principal, the interest, no matter what the interest rate is, all the operating expenses.


Speaker 1 (00:02:51) - And then a little on top of that called cash flow. Now, really, when you add the first few income properties to your life and you think about protecting your time, think about how that is a surrogate, a substitute to adding a part time job that can be a rather circuitous way of going about life, because what you really want is the income, not the job or not the lost time. So therefore add properties, not jobs. Most people think of financial improvement is cutting expenses. It is not. It is adding income. Then those the triadic income, many times they look to add a part time job. But I brazenly posit that income producing property is the way. And what do they call Ryan Seacrest the hardest working guy in show business? I guess if you wanted to, you could have as many part time jobs as Ryan Seacrest. Prepare yourself for drama on this stage.


Speaker 2 (00:03:54) - This is American Idol.


Speaker 1 (00:04:00) - Yeah, Ryan Seacrest. He will also become the Wheel of Fortune host starting next year along with the daytime talk show and being a producer and whatever else he does.


Speaker 1 (00:04:10) - I'm not really up on the latest. But yes, you want to have fewer jobs than Ryan Seacrest now speaking to your ROI, your return on time invested. You could get 64 single family rental homes like our guest today, and yet do it the wrong way. The wrong way might be say you live in a certain metro area and you buy all the properties just in your home metro so that the properties are spread, say one hour apart. That way you rationalize that you could self-manage, well, gosh, you'd be running all over the place. You'd have scores of tenants that could tax you. You'd almost be living at Home Depot, and after all that, you would still not be diversified because you'd only be in one metro market. Plus, how would you really ever get away on, say, a vacation? So that's probably not what you'd want either. Let's talk to our listener guest Scott, today and learn about how he does it. Here with me today is a great listener. Don't quit your day dream letter reader to discuss growing his Single-family rental portfolio.


Speaker 1 (00:05:22) - He's based in Colorado and he specializes in real estate in tax law. In fact, he often teaches real estate law to attorneys. He's a single family real estate investor that owns 64 single family rentals and four duplexes. So therefore, he owns 72 doors, 64 of which are single family rentals. And he owns those properties across nine different states Tennessee, Florida, Indiana, Missouri, Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado, Kansas and Arkansas. Higher mortgage rates aren't slowing him down as he's added six of those single family rentals this year. He's also a member of a Washington, D.C. based public policy organization that represents real estate interests. So he's really involved. He advocates for investor friendly tax policies with Congress. He's got a lot going on in his life. Hey, it's great to welcome on to Scott Saunders. Hey, Keith, Great to be with you. I'm a longtime follower and you have so many great nuggets of wisdom that you share, and it's just great. To visit with you for a few minutes.


Speaker 1 (00:06:22) - So thanks a lot. I appreciate that so much, Scott. Now, in the real estate world, there are pros and cons between single family rentals and larger apartments. Apartments have a certain economies of scale advantage, but single family rentals have advantages that some people overlook. So talk to us about why you like single family rentals so much. Happy to do that. I think single family rentals are, first of all, a great entryway to get into investment real estate. But some people kind of springboard. They get into single family and then they want to go into duplexes, four Plex apartments, Single family is an asset class. You know, if you just look at it, it has so many advantages. The cap rate on a single family is typically better than a lot of commercial buildings right now. You can lock in long term fixed rate financing. So even if the rate's a tad higher, you go into an apartment building or commercial, you've got to refinance. And as we all know right now in the marketplace, there are some commercial properties that are facing some significant distress because they're having to refinance at higher rates.


Speaker 1 (00:07:29) - Single family, you lock it in for 30 years and fix that. You've got buyer.


Speaker 3 (00:07:34) - Pool. I can sell a single family to an investor or a homeowner. So there just are a lot of advantages and maybe even just at the most basic level, we all need to live somewhere, right? And so a choice of an apartment or a single family. So many people like the freedom, the room, the convenience, the yard, the garage that comes with a single family. So I just think there's a lot of inherent demand where people want to be in that type of property, either as a renter or a homeowner. So I'm a big fan of buying a single family home, buy another one, you know, and just continue scaling in that niche. I call it Get Rich in a niche, right? And that's the single family rental niche.


Speaker 1 (00:08:16) - Sure. I had some apartment buildings that I sold recently that had balloon loans that were about to expire. And you mentioned the liquidity component where you have greater liquidity with single family rentals regardless of when it is in the cycle.


Speaker 1 (00:08:31) - Even if it were a recession, borderline depression, people will be a buyer because they need a place to live. But a person doesn't always need to invest in an apartment building regardless of where we're at in the economic cycle.


Speaker 3 (00:08:45) - Absolutely. Well, smart timing on your part to kind of see where those loans are going. And I think that there's a good time to maybe redeploy that capital somewhere else. So I like single family, and I think you can really grow and scale a portfolio. I mean, think of it this way, Keith. What if I needed to raise some cash? What if I had a medical need? I could unload a single family home or two right away. Now, I know from listening to your teaching, you'd say, don't sell it, refinance it. Right, harvest that equity. And that would be my first bet. But if I needed to generate cash, it's not that hard to unload some smaller single family rentals. And within a matter of a few months I could liquidate that and get the cash.


Speaker 3 (00:09:26) - Some apartment buildings, you know, in some markets it could take a long time to find the right buyer in some places.


Speaker 1 (00:09:34) - Now, during that whole time on a single family rental, you mentioned the cap rates. Oftentimes single family rentals are more profitable than what an investor projects. And one reason is that greater tenancy duration tenants tend to stay in single family homes and duplexes longer than they do a larger apartment building. Oftentimes it's because it feels like their own single family homes just tend to have more square footage, which lends to having larger families. We have a larger family. It just tends toward people wanting to stay longer and not uproot, and they get invested in things like buying to be in a certain school district, for example, where more single family homes tend to be than apartment buildings.


Speaker 3 (00:10:18) - Absolutely. You know, you bring that up. My very first investment years ago was a fourplex, kind of a C class neighborhood. And when I bought it, I naively write. I look back at it now, I thought, well, if this is fully occupied, look at what the money will make.


Speaker 3 (00:10:33) - The reality was there was a lot of turnover at that particular area. People came and went. It wasn't the top of the line. It wasn't a top tier neighborhood. And so I found that I was always chasing people and it was never in my case, fully occupied. And that tenant turn, that's expensive, as you well know. When you turn tenants, you have lost rent. You got to fix it up. So a single family home. I've had properties that my longest one I had attended stay in one for 15 years. I don't think you're going to find that in a multifamily property.


Speaker 1 (00:11:06) - Yeah, that really is rather unlikely. I know in that first fourplex you bought, you tended to do some things where later you learned that those were mistakes, like doing some excessive landscaping and spending a lot on fencing and. For a nice driveway so that you get a better quality tenant. But sometimes you learn you can only attract a certain quality tenant based on the neighborhood that you're already in. That's why oftentimes it's better to buy a lesser property in a better neighborhood.


Speaker 1 (00:11:34) - For example. Looking back and we'll get into your journey in a bit about how you've added all these properties, but one takeaway that you've had is that it's better to focus on cash flow at the beginning, more so that appreciation. So therefore getting a Class B or C property, which you probably don't want to stoop too low, or you also might have a bad experience at the beginning. So talk to us about the importance of for many people think they want to start with cash flow centric properties at the beginning and then maybe new build appreciation ones later.


Speaker 3 (00:12:03) - I agree. I think when you go into an asset that produces a cash flow, it kind of gives you the fuel to start growing, right? You get some positive reinforcement, but it also gives you the capital to go out and buy more assets. So I think that. BK and maybe call it B to C plus starting there, you know, getting 250 to 300 an asset in cash flow, you get one of those, you get three, you're talking about $1,000, you've got six.


Speaker 3 (00:12:29) - Now you're 2000. And at that point, when you get to maybe 6 to 10 properties, the cash flow is now helping to contribute your down payment to go out and buy another asset. So I personally think you kind of start with that maybe as your gateway for your first 5 or 10, get some momentum and then maybe later. So we all know an A-class property in a great neighborhood with great schools. It might appreciate better long term. And so I lean towards building the cash flow on the front end and then moving over into more appreciation as the portfolio grows. So there are merits on both sides. There's not a right or wrong way to do it, but that I think gets your average investor with some momentum. You know, you want to create momentum, you want to start buying assets. And so the cash flow allows you to buy assets faster than waiting for appreciation to kind of carry you up. That rising tide lifts all boats saying that'll happen over time, but get the momentum with the cash flow to help augment and help you buy more assets quickly.


Speaker 3 (00:13:33) - I tend to lean towards that approach. Again, no right or wrong, Keith, I'll tell you, I've done it wrong. I started out buying some A-class, about five new homes, and now those have produced good appreciation, but I didn't have much cash flow off them, so I had a little modest cash flow. I do things differently looking back, but I'm still moving forward. Real estate corrects, right? It's like a bad haircut and not that I would really know, but you can get a bad haircut and give it a 4 or 6 weeks and it'll grow out in a way you go and it covers over any mistakes that Barber made.


Speaker 1 (00:14:07) - Yeah, real estate's very forgiving over the long term. I kind of think of real estate as a game of attrition as long as you buy, right? Even if there is a bit of a mistake or a stumble, when you have five simultaneous ways that you're paid, you're going to feel that sooner than later. Scott You've really done a great job of scaling up your portfolio.


Speaker 1 (00:14:30) - Last I checked, you were in nine different markets. I mentioned the nine states that you were in earlier and you have 18 different property managers now. Can you talk to us more about how you scaled that? You talk to us about how it might be best to get that snowball rolling sooner with cash flow, but how do you scale up and ramp up to where you're at today with 72 doors, 64 of them single family rentals?


Speaker 3 (00:14:55) - Oh, what I'll do, Keith, I'll share what I did to kind of get there. And I want to be candid with you and listeners of that. I probably made a mistake doing that. I don't think everybody has to be in that many markets, that many managers. So what I did, quite frankly, it sounds so simple. I said a 90 day target. So I would say I'm going to buy X number of properties. That was a do or die goal. It wasn't an annual goal. If I wanted to buy three in that 90 day period, I would make sure no matter what, I bought three assets.


Speaker 3 (00:15:26) - So what happened was I maybe bought in different states to get the job done. I had to buy quickly, right? I was focused on adding my numbers. So for me, having that short term target that I looked at every day in the morning and the night that gave me the focus. So I wasn't looking over three years. I was like, What do I need to do in the next three months? And I really applied everything to doing that. And so you figure if you do a three month period, you pick up three, but you do that every quarter, that's 12 new assets in a year. That's big progress in just annual time frame. So that's what I did. 90 day targets were the game changer for me. Now, you shared kind of the downside of that and that I'm probably over diversified, I would say probably in my level being in three, four states, half the states and maybe two thirds less property managers would be more. Just from a relationship standpoint. So that was a mistake.


Speaker 3 (00:16:25) - And, you know, I can correct for it Over time. I'll probably do 1030 ones out of some of the states and consolidate in areas that I like. But that was how I did it is I just identified a lot of Midwest type markets that are good cash flow markets. And when I saw an opportunity, I grabbed it a few of them. Keith I buy one and then the next door, somebody was doing a renovation next door. And there are a few streets, right? Three houses right next to one another as a result of that. So that's kind of been interesting. And then I also find is word got out that I was buying. I had people approach me and say, Look, I've got a package of properties. Would you like the whole package or part of the package? And so that helped me a little bit. So instead of doing one loan on three different properties three times, I do one larger loan purchase, three properties at once. And so it gave me a little bit of efficiency.


Speaker 3 (00:17:19) - Now that didn't happen on all of them, but over time I've been doing more of that. My last one this year I bought four assets in Tennessee from one seller as a package deal, and that makes it a little bit easier.


Speaker 1 (00:17:32) - Yeah, I want to get into that financing piece shortly, but I think the important thing is you acted, you jumped in and once you do that, more opportunities begin to present themselves. And not everyone does everything the right way. If you've got 18 property managers you're dealing with, which would be a lot. I mean, if you get one monthly email statement from property manager that's getting one a little bit more than every other day, if one would happen to do it that way. I've often talked about how three, 4 or 5 markets to be in that number probably is a good number where you have adequate diversification, yet it hasn't overcomplicated your life administratively at the same time. But with that in mind, Scott, as you're growing your portfolio, what makes you decide what market to buy in next? Oftentimes it's not the sort of thing that you think it will be, just like you had an opportunity to present itself.


Speaker 1 (00:18:24) - For example, if you buy in a market and you find that you have a really communicative property manager that you really like in that market, you might buy in that market where you know you've already got a good manager, for example, rather than just what appears to be a good deal on the surface. So what are some of the factors that go into what make you decide which market to select next?


Speaker 3 (00:18:43) - Scott I've done a lot of analysis and there are a lot of good markets. You know, one thing, there's no perfect market. You and I probably know 20, 30, 40 good markets where people can make money that have good growing economies, populations growing. There's pressure on rents and appreciation. So I've identified some that I like. Would you just alluded to is really one of the factors now, which is more of a relationship, right? I've consolidated over, so I have a good property manager in Memphis, Tennessee. I've got a great working relationship with them and then also a provider of assets.


Speaker 3 (00:19:18) - And so for me, I'm finding having that relationship makes things a little smoother. There's a trust factor when you manage remotely. I haven't seen most of my assets and I do very little in my own home state. So for me, it's really important that I can trust who I'm working with out of state. And so I find having that relationship makes me more likely to purchase more properties in that particular market because I've got that. So Saint Louis, Missouri is one market. Memphis, Tennessee is another. Those are some markets that I like. Now, some of them have great fundamentals. You know, Memphis, number one airport in the entire country, you've got a waterway, you've got a lot of highways that converge there. You've got a lot of industrial Nike's there, Amazon. So there are, you know, kind of a multitude of factors. You know, right now in Memphis, you've got the blue oval development, which is the Ford. They're going to build battery trucks. And I think it's a $10 billion plant they're putting in.


Speaker 3 (00:20:18) - Well, that's going to be a huge draw for jobs. So I tend to look for jobs, a diversified economy. I like to see an influx of people coming into the market. So that's the big macro. When I look at my investment, I try to get fairly close to that 1% rule if I can. You know, I don't have to hit it perfectly, but that's kind of a decent benchmark on an asset. I like to get fairly close.


Speaker 1 (00:20:44) - You're listening to Get Rich Education. We're talking with super real estate investor on Single-family turnkey Homes, Scott Saunders. When we come back, including how did he do it with the financing and what does he do to manage all this? You're listening to Get Resuscitation. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom family investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in. Returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%.


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Speaker 1 (00:22:46) - Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold. Welcome back to Get Rich Education we're talking with Scott Saunders get rich education listener owner of 64 single family rental properties. He really loves single family and he's still buying now. But Scott, some people have slowed down their buying with higher mortgage rates. They're not adding properties nearly as quickly. But still, really the question I asked myself is where could I invest better dollar today than in rental property? Of course, inflation debases that debt for us, and then when inflation and interest rates drop, I can refinance. And you've added just about 60 properties in the last four and a half years. So tell us about that.


Speaker 3 (00:23:39) - I have added a lot of them recently and it started again with setting those goals and I'm keeping up the momentum now. You know, I realized the rates have changed. This is still a good time to be a buyer If you're in certain markets.


Speaker 3 (00:23:54) - There are good purchases out there. So I'm able to negotiate a little better with sellers, maybe get a little concession where they'll give a couple points towards my rate or the closing cost. I couldn't get that and the go go days, people are doing that. And the way I look at it is I'm really making an investment now in an asset, right? What is a single family home? It's just a bunch of commodities glass, bricks, wood. And with inflation, we know commodities are going to go up. So I'm locking in that today and I'm going to really use inflation as a tailwind to propel my investing forward, whether that's with rents and appreciation, whether it's debasing my good business debt, I'm using that as a tailwind. And I'll tell you my personal opinion, Keith, I'll go on record on this. People are going to kick themselves a few years down the road when rates go down, whenever that is for not purchasing now, because when rates go down, it's going to create more demand.


Speaker 3 (00:24:54) - And I think you're going to lock in today's pricing now and somewhere rates will change. I don't know when, but nobody has that crystal ball. When they do, prices are going to pop up, I think, at that time. And so people are like, oh, I should have bought back in 2023. I don't want to do the woulda, coulda, shoulda. I'd rather make smart baby steps now. Just keep buying chunking along slow and steady and locking in assets today that I know five, ten years from now, my future self is going to be glad that I took action today.


Speaker 1 (00:25:30) - Now, I know that you, the listener, must be thinking, yes, I do want to buy more property here. But how to Scott add so many properties so fast and that really guides us into the financing. What do you do for the financing of these properties? Because of course for single people, those golden ticket Fannie Freddie loans run out at ten.


Speaker 3 (00:25:52) - One of the biggest things is getting over that hurdle of those lower rates.


Speaker 3 (00:25:57) - So I do what's called non QM or what they're also called DSR financing, where the load is made based upon the asset and the cash flow the asset produces. So these are going to be a little bit higher rate, a touch higher. But once you get into them and you get comfortable, you realize this is what all the big players do. People that buy commercial properties, that's how they buy them. So I'm using a rate that's a touch higher, but now I've got a great working relationship. I have one particular lender. I've done 40 loans with them directly, not with the broker. I go direct to the lender, save some money, and I'll literally email over to that lender at night. I'm buying just one of their contract on two more assets, and it's really easy to do the loan. So I find what's called non QM, which stands for Non-qualifying Mortgage, that type of financing. I actually prefer it. It's easier. I don't have to provide every financial statement, you know, updated within the last 30 days.


Speaker 3 (00:26:58) - I actually find it's an easier approach. And as long as you look at the numbers and you still have positive cash flow. So today maybe I'm positive $200 where a year and a half ago I might have been positive 3 or 350. So it takes me five assets to get another thousand in cash flow today where I could have done that and maybe three or so a little while back. Okay, I'm just buying more assets, right? I win with that because I'm still locking in more of those commodities in those assets. And so I just that inflation raised that up over time and I just get the benefit of it. So now instead of fighting against inflation, I'm using inflation to move me forward.


Speaker 1 (00:27:41) - About dcr loans, debt service coverage ratio loans which are used more commonly in the five plus apartment space area. That is one option for one after they run out of their ten golden ticket Fannie Freddie loans that are at the best rates in terms. Can you tell us more about those terms of the hours? Are you getting a longer term fixed rate? Do you need to put a greater percent down for those?


Speaker 3 (00:28:08) - Most of mine are relatively close to a conventional loan.


Speaker 3 (00:28:12) - You can get those with 20% down. I have chosen in some cases to put down maybe 25%, but I'm getting in almost all situations 30 year fixed rate financing. To me, I want to fix that debt service and have it locked in. So that's really important. So I'm a big believer in 30 year fixed rate. I did have during Covid right at the beginning and I had some assets under contract. You couldn't get a loan. It was very difficult. March, April, May and I had deals closing. Then I had lender that I had to get the lender that they required me to put down 40%. So I had to put a bigger down payment to get it done. At the time, Keith, I was like, Oh, I'm not getting as much leverage. My money's not working quite as hard. Now, that was several years ago, and a few of those because they were smaller assets. I've got little small loans on them where and I want to be careful because I know your view on debt.


Speaker 3 (00:29:11) - I'm going to be paying some of them off, not to have them free and clear, but to use those as a resource as collateral. So I can go to a bank and say, Look, I'm going to pledge this collateral. Let's say ten homes that are free and clear, you give me a loan and now I'll use that loan to do some other things, probably like hard money, loans, private lending. So I'm going to use those paid off assets as a tool for me to do some financing, some creative financing deals in the future. So it's a means to an end. It's a stepping stone to go a little bit deeper and use the banks money for me to make more money in the future. So that's kind of what I'll be doing there.


Speaker 1 (00:29:51) - All right. It sounds like you still want to keep most of them leverage. Are you talking about the advantages of having a few of them paid off and therefore really so that you can borrow against the value of those paid off properties? So really, you're just paying them off to effectively use leverage again in a different way?


Speaker 3 (00:30:08) - Precisely.


Speaker 3 (00:30:09) - That's exactly what I'm going to do is bundle those together and those become collateral. So exactly. I'm going to relieve them maybe in a different fashion. So I am a huge fan of good business debt. It's one of those things is concepts. So you got to wrap your head around it at the beginning because we're beat into our brains that, you know, debt is bad, but good business debt is not only good, it's great. It allows you to multiply your efforts faster than you could with your own capital. So to take the bank's capital and use that to get ahead, that to me is is a smart move 100%.


Speaker 1 (00:30:50) - So you've got this robust portfolio spread across several different states. You've even admitted probably dealing currently with more managers than you even want to. And it makes one wonder, is there any particular type of management software that you use? Now, of course, each one of your individual property managers, 18 of them, they have their own management software. But how does that work? How do you manage all this? Do you really get 18 monthly statement emails from 18 property managers each month?


Speaker 3 (00:31:19) - I do actually get 18 different emails and statements a month.


Speaker 3 (00:31:23) - I'll tell you what I've done, Keith. I'm very low tech. I'll be honest. I use Excel to track things and what I've done, which is kind of a fun thing for me. My youngest daughter, who, believe it or not, actually owns. She bought her first single family home at age 16. She's been watching me. She actually helps me now track my rental income and work with the financials. So I've hired her in my real estate business. She now gets all the statements she puts in, puts everything into my spreadsheet and then runs the reports for me. So it's been kind of neat in that I get the data I need, but I'm also training my kid about real estate. And not only that, I actually include her on my emails, so she has a real estate specific email. When I reply to my property manager about an issue, I'll copy her so she sees my thinking how I do it. So I'm trying to be strategic, realizing I'm not going to be around forever.


Speaker 3 (00:32:21) - Someday my kids are going to get a pile of real estate and I want them to know what to do with it when they get it, that they walk into it and they're like, okay, I kind of know what to do versus selling it all off and then giving the money to Wall Street, which is I would hate to have that happen. So I'm. Try to bring them along.


Speaker 1 (00:32:41) - Despite the fact you use Excel. You talk about how you're relatively low tech. I'm, in fact, impressed with that because it demonstrates to me that, you know, the proper formulas to use in Excel and which numbers actually matter to drive your current and future investment decisions. So that actually tells me a lot that you really understand what's going on behind the scenes and you don't have it too automated. Also, when you're involved like this, which is a sense that you just cannot get being a stock investor where your profits are really coming from and where they're really not coming from. Having one of your children involved that is huge at building this legacy wealth piece like we talked about on the show last month and helping ensure that there is generational wealth in your family, like with your daughter.


Speaker 1 (00:33:26) - Now, she understands where it comes from and what it takes. So I absolutely love that piece. Scott We talk about what drives investment decisions. We talk about how you've acquired and you've held some properties. What about the time to sell? For example, I like to buy turnkey investments that already have the renovation done, or they're just brand new and oftentimes like to just hold them 7 to 10 years because in 7 to 10 years, in the last three years, it's been as short as three years, those properties have gone up in value enough where the leverage ratio was cut such that I either want to do a cash out refinance or a 1031 exchange, not get too emotional about properties, only hold them seven years, rarely if ever, more than ten years. What are your thoughts with the whole time and the duration?


Speaker 3 (00:34:09) - I'm fairly similar to you on that. I do. My preference is turnkey. That's what most of my portfolio is. So I'm buying stuff that's already been renovated after, you know, 10 to 15 years.


Speaker 3 (00:34:21) - And that window, that's when you're going to start to see roof issues, the furnace, the AC. So my plan would then be to do a 1031 roll out and get more turnkey. So let's say I take one single family home that might allow me to go out and buy 2 or 3 more single family homes, probably ten years max would be what I would be doing. And I did that. I rolled out A1A couple of years ago. I had one single family in Arizona exchanged out of it, and I bought four in Saint Louis, one in Memphis. I got a much better return on my investment. So to think of if you take my portfolio today, right in the 60s, if I can roll out of that and go up to, let's say 120 or 130, that's going to give me some significant scale and benefits. So that would be my plan. I'll never sell and pay the taxes. I always do it 1031 or I'll refinance to harvest equity.


Speaker 1 (00:35:17) - If you're a brand new listener and you don't know what a 1031 tax deferred exchange is, the short story on that is it basically allows you to roll your profits from appreciation into another property, either multiple properties or a larger property is what it usually is with you being able to 100% defer the tax.


Speaker 1 (00:35:37) - And there's no limit to the number of times you can do that. Therefore, it should become a tax free event. You can defer that tax your entire life by trading up with that. 1031 also called a 1031 like kind exchange. As you go along, I know that you've got some great philosophy, Scott. I mean, first of all, you're a goal driven guy, so you have these longer term goals. And you mentioned you also have these shorter term milestones, like a 90 day goal on your way to those longer term goals. For one that hasn't heard the acronym before, Goals should be smart, that is specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and time bound. That's what differentiates a goal from a wish. So tell us about your goals and how that drives this. Scott.


Speaker 3 (00:36:22) - My duals. I do every three months. I do have a short term goal and I've got some For this year. I'll probably pick up 15 properties. I think I'm halfway through the year. I'm on track, so I'll do that.


Speaker 3 (00:36:34) - I've got some long term goals. One of them just before I left on vacation a couple of weeks ago, I'm under contract on a property in Tuscany, Italy, so I can have what I call a lifestyle asset. So one of my goals would be to get a few lifestyle assets. I want to buy a place in Steamboat Springs, Colorado, enjoyed some of the year, rent it out other times. So one goal would be picking up a few of these. That would be something that I can enjoy and my kids can enjoy, but it also produced a return. So it's a twofer. I gave money on it and I get to enjoy it. That's a big long term goal of doing that. So Tuscany, I like to do a place in Sardinia, Italy, which is the most beautiful beaches, gorgeous. The mountains may be a place in Florida, so I like to pick up over the next few years, maybe a property a year in that category. That's just something that's fun.


Speaker 3 (00:37:25) - It doesn't make any sense to work really hard and save if you can't enjoy life, right? I mean, that's the whole goal is to get free where you can enjoy your time and enjoy spending time with the ones you care about. So I want to transition that way into Tastic.


Speaker 1 (00:37:42) - Yeah, spending time in Tuscany was part of perhaps the best week of my life personally, part of your philosophies. It's not just having tangible goals, it's you call something rather than an ROI in ROA, and it's that the return on a realisation that I talk about.


Speaker 3 (00:38:01) - Yeah, what that is, you know, so many people have heard of ROI, which is a return on investment and we kind of get bottlenecked around that, right? Looking at our return, you know, 7%, 8%, 1619 And there's a lot of focus. What I tend to do, and this actually came through a good friend of mine, Rick ROA, is return on attention. Yeah. Looking at our life from a time standpoint.


Speaker 3 (00:38:25) - So when we look at ROI, we're looking at money dollars return on attention. We're now measuring things in time, right? What do we have the free time to enjoy without having to be distracted with following the stock market every day? And is it up or down? Or what's the Fed doing? So return on attention to me is actually more important than the ROI. And I know we're on a podcast talking about real estate, so surely making wise investment decisions is important. But if I look at where I am in life, more important to me is my return on attention than my return on my investment. So I want to have my attention free that I can enjoy what's around me while I'm young enough and vibrant enough to enjoy it. So I just got back from travel and Saint Lucia had a wonderful time out there. I love to travel. I typically do an international trip probably every quarter or so. I'm taking my son to Morocco, did an African safari. We did Iceland swam with whale sharks last year.


Speaker 3 (00:39:30) - Portugal. I want to spend time with the people I care about and travel is a part of that and having my attention freed up so I can do that. That actually is a big principle. It's a big objective is having my time freed up and my attention freed up.


Speaker 1 (00:39:47) - Wealth is measured in time, not dollars. You and I sure do agree there. Scott is we're about to wrap up here. I know you often talk to people about the importance of taking action and just sort of getting those base hits and how do you think that people would have more economic freedom if they just purchased 5 to 10 single family rentals?


Speaker 3 (00:40:07) - Absolutely. And it's not that hard, right? You get over the first one's the hardest and then you get a little momentum after that, Right. The first one hard, the second one, you've just doubled the size of your real estate portfolio. You go to four, you quadrupled your first one. And I think the magic number to hit is get to five and add five assets.


Speaker 3 (00:40:28) - You typically have enough rental income coming in that it's pretty close to being self-sustaining. So if you have one vacancy, you're going to typically have pretty much enough rental income to do it. So getting to five and then pushing on to 10 or 15, that can change so many people's lives. Just that small thing for the average American. If you had ten single family rental homes, you'd be light years ahead of the people that are doing all the 401. And Wall Street racket stuff.


Speaker 1 (00:40:59) - That's so on point. Yeah, you are really doing the things. Scott, before I ask you how our audience can learn more about you, do you have any last thoughts? Anything else you'd like to discuss maybe that did not come up with scaling up this terrific Single-family rental portfolio and how that's enhancing your life.


Speaker 3 (00:41:18) - I'll give two quick tidbits to kind of wrap things up here. Keith, it's been great visiting with you. I've been a longtime follower and just love all the information you bring out and the resources, so it's great to visit with you in person.


Speaker 3 (00:41:30) - Two things. One, I would say use the tax code, use guys like Tom Lehrer write, read those books, figure out how to master the tax code. A lot of people don't do that. They're intimidated by taxes and the IRS go after that and it'll give you more capital to grow your portfolio. The other one, I would say, and I think you alluded to it, is don't be paralyzed by inaction. Don't do that analysis paralysis thing of is this good or not? My whole philosophy is I never try to hit a home run. I don't need the best performing investment. I just need a good investment. And you know, in a portfolio, I've some that have been stellar and I've had 1 or 2 dogs like anybody would. When you get a bunch of them, my feedback would be, if you're not in the game of real estate, put all your focus on to getting that first one and then jump to your second translated into action rather than overanalyzing. So on your show, you've got a lot of great resources of turnkey providers.


Speaker 3 (00:42:29) - In many of the markets that I'm in pick market, take action and jump in. You'll be so much farther ahead by taking action than by studying and running formulas and spreadsheets. Get into the game, buy the first property, buy the second push with some short term goals, and then all of a sudden you're using all of these economic forces to get ahead in life and they're not fighting against you. And I think what that does is now you're swimming downstream, so to speak, rather than fighting upstream. That's what all these inflationary forces that you talk about all the time do. So get in, start swimming downstream, join it. I want to see more people in America that have freedom and have some independence and are benefiting from the economic forces rather than getting crushed by those same economic forces.


Speaker 1 (00:43:21) - And it starts with just getting your first base hit. Well, this has been terrific, Scott. How can our audience learn more about you?


Speaker 3 (00:43:29) - I've got a website up. It's my name, so it's Scott R Saunders.


Speaker 3 (00:43:35) - Sanders And that's got a little more background. And I've got for people that are interested, I put together a course of how to kind of get into single family and scale it and grow it. So for those that is appropriate, I'm happy to be a resource in that department there at that website.


Speaker 1 (00:43:54) - Scott has been such a great chat. Our audience is going to benefit from it. Thanks so much for coming on to the show.


Speaker 3 (00:44:00) - It's been a blast. Thanks, Keith.


Speaker 1 (00:44:07) - Yeah, great stuff from Scott. We do a lot of things the same way as far as having remote managers in multiple markets. I've also never seen most of my properties in person, nor do I need to. We often buy multiple properties at once. I like to buy at least two single family rentals at a time to make things more efficient. But big picture, we are not postponing life and are traveling to great places. As I'm fond of saying, some delayed gratification is good, but the risk of too much delayed gratification is denied gratification, which is the road of the 401 plan, which is also known as a life deferral plan.


Speaker 1 (00:44:49) - Scott is currently meeting with our provider of Chattanooga Properties on Marketplace. It is rare to see Crest buying properties in Jerry Marketplace. I guess I'm actually not sure we might have to turn him onto it so that he can quit one of those part time jobs. He's got pretty cool part time jobs, though. He's not breaking his back like a longshoreman. Yeah. Jerry Marketplace. That is where you find the right properties that really are just never going to make it out onto the open market at all. And they're the ones that are conducive to this strategy. Lower cost properties that have a high ratio of rent income to a low purchase price, they're typically fully renovated with a tenant from day one where an experienced manager also manages it for you from day one, if you so choose. And it's free. Just creating one log in one time like thousands of others have, gives you access to nationwide providers. We've even got free coaching for you there if you so choose. Knowledge really isn't power in itself. Knowledge plus action is what's powerful.


Speaker 1 (00:45:56) - Get started at GRC until next week I'm your host Keith Winfield. Don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 4 (00:46:07) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 1 (00:46:35) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building get rich education. Com.



Direct download: GREepisode458_.mp3
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Get our newsletter free here or text “GRE” to 66866.

Higher interest rates are cracking the economy—failing banks and failing commercial RE loans. With many expecting rates to go much higher, what else will break?

Keith Weinhold, the host of the Get Rich Education podcast, discusses the current state of interest rates and their potential future trajectory. 

Jim Rogers, legendary investor with an estimated $300M net worth, returns. He shares his insights on interest rates and inflation. 

We discuss the impact of inflation on various asset classes, including real estate, and the potential for higher interest rates in the future. 

The conversation also touches on topics such as agricultural real estate, the oil market, central bank digital currencies, and the role of gold and bitcoin as alternative forms of wealth storage. 

Overall, the episode provides valuable insights into the current economic landscape and its implications for investors.

Title [00:01:56]

Introduction and overview of the current state of interest rates and market distortions.

Title [00:05:03]

Discussion on the unpredictability of interest rate predictions and the acknowledgment of inflation by Jerome Powell.

Title [00:08:28]

Explanation of the historical trend of interest rates, the recent rise in rates, and predictions for future rate movements.

Title [00:12:09]

Jim Rogers on Borrowing Money and Interest Rates

Discussion on the benefits of borrowing money at low interest rates and the prediction of interest rates going higher.

Title [00:14:27]

Jerome Powell and the Possibility of a Soft Landing

Questioning whether Jerome Powell can raise interest rates enough to control inflation without causing an economic crash.

Title [00:18:41]

Inflation, Interest Rates, and Real Estate

Exploring the impact of inflation and interest rates on real estate investments and the potential risks for property owners.

Topic 1: Agricultural Real Estate [00:22:21]

Discussion on the opportunities in agricultural real estate due to erratic weather patterns and reduced yields in various crops.

Topic 2: Oil Market [00:24:16]

Conversation about the current state of the oil market, the decline in known reserves, and the potential for higher energy prices.

Topic 3: Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDCs) [00:26:04]

Exploration of the proliferation of CBDCs and the implications of a digital currency controlled by central authorities, including potential restrictions on spending and increased government control.

Title [00:32:06]

History of Money and Gold Standard

Discussion on the different forms of money throughout history and the transition from silver to gold as the basis for the US currency.

Title [00:32:47]

The Diminishing Value of the Dollar

The prediction that the value of the dollar will continue to diminish over time and the suggestion to invest in real estate instead of saving in dollars.

Title [00:33:33]

Invest in What You Know

Advice for investors to only invest in what they know about and not rely on advice from others, emphasizing the importance of knowledge and understanding in investment decisions.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:


Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Interest rates rose fast last year, but a lot of experts think that they're going to go substantially higher from today's level, including our guest today, who is a legendary investor. How much higher will rates go and what's driving them higher today on get rich education.


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Speaker 1 (00:01:10) - Join the Freedom Family and become a real estate insider. Start on your path to financial freedom through passive income. Text Family to 66866. This is not a solicitation and is for accredited investors only. Please text family to 66866 for complete details.


Speaker 2 (00:01:33) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:01:56) - Welcome to GRE! From Mount Washington, New Hampshire to Mount Whitney, California, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Whitefield and you are listening to Get Rich Education. Hey, it's great to have you back. Interest rates are not high today. They're just moderate by historic standards. But of course, the rapid rate of increases last year was faster than it's ever been in our lives. And that's what introduces market distortions. Today's guest is going to talk about that with us later. That's the legendary Jim Rogers. And it's public information that he has an estimated $300 million net worth. When Jim talks, people listen. When he was here with us in 2019, he was emphatic that interest rates were going to go much higher.


Speaker 1 (00:02:43) - He was completely correct. And few others were saying that then. In fact, when he's with us here shortly, all recite the interest rate quote that he stated here on this show back then and get his forecast from this point on as well before discussing interest rates a quarter recently ended. So let's whip around the asset classes as we do here at times, because you need to be able to compare real estate with other investments. The first half of this year, the S&P 500 was up a fat 17%. I'm just running to the nearest whole percent here. The tech heavy Nasdaq index had its best first half of the year in four decades. Gold was up 6%. Oil was down 34%. Bitcoin up an astounding 84% the first six months of the year. And that's partly because it really bottomed out near the beginning of this year per Freddie Mac. The 30 year fixed mortgage began the year at 6.5%, and now it's up to 6.7 for real estate. Since it lags, we've got a year over year figure.


Speaker 1 (00:03:48) - The median listing price was up 1% to 440 K financial institutions aced their Fed stress test that they call it that measures how banks are holding up during a downturn. Q1 GDP was revised way higher than they previously calculated, so the economy is doing even better than many thought. And the number of Americans that are filing for new unemployment claims that fell the most in 20 months. So therefore, the economy is still hot by a lot of measures. Well, that puts more upward pressure on interest rates. Well, an interest rate that can be thought of as your cost of money, and they can even affect factors beyond the economic world. For example, in demographics, I mean, historically high interest rates, they've actually been a mild impediment to people's very migration and mobility. Understand the Fed's interest rate predictions and really all of their predictions have been awful, just awful. A long line of them. Fed Chair Jerome Powell's inflation is transitory. I mean, this is the latest notable one. He said that in 2021.


Speaker 1 (00:05:03) - I mean, though, look on your phones weather app, you don't trust the weather forecast ten days into the future. So I don't know why we would listen so intently, even reverentially to what the Fed economists predict for the next month or the next year. I mean, the economy can have as many or more variables than the weather. I'm going to assume. And these people know nothing Volcker, Greenspan, Bernanke, Yellen, Powell. They know nothing but see, they act like they know. So I just sort of wish they'd say we don't know more often. And by the way, this is why I do not predict interest rates like virtually everyone else. I know nothing on that. I joke around and I say I will let someone else be wrong and go ahead and predict interest rates. It's really hard to do now. A little credit to Jerome Powell later on, though, he did acknowledge that they ought to stop calling inflation transitory. So I think the word transitory has different meanings to different people.


Speaker 1 (00:06:08) - To many, it carries.


Speaker 3 (00:06:09) - A time, a sense of of short lived. We tend to to to use it to mean that that it won't leave a permanent mark in the form of higher inflation. I think it's it's probably a good time to retire that that word and try to explain more clearly what we mean.


Speaker 1 (00:06:26) - Another credit to Powell in today's Fed is that they'll tell you what interest rate decisions they plan to make at upcoming meetings, which is certainly a welcome departure from the opaque Alan Greenspan where you needed to try to translate his Fed speak. So if the Fed rate goes higher, then you can generally expect other rates to go higher. The prime rate mortgage rates, credit card interest rates, automobile loans and more. Jim Grant. Who's been running the interest rate observer since 1983. He recently said that we are embarking into a long era of higher interest rates. He says that that's due to inflation and asset price speculation and of course rates wouldn't move up in some sort of straight line from here. During recessions, interest rates fall.


Speaker 1 (00:07:14) - Well, in that case, if you had recessions during a longer term up spell, where you'd have is higher interest rate lows in a recession. Now, starting in 1958, something strange happened in America. In a recession, prices did not fall into many. This marked the beginning of the age of inflation. That was 65 years ago. So you're pretty used to that. If there is a recession, prices don't fall. All right. Well, after that period, rates went up, up, up until they peaked in 1981. And then they went down. Rates fell from 1981 until 2021, and now they have begun to rise again. Well, because artificially low rates that were set to deal with Covid, because they're still recent, I mean, many people have this sort of muscle memory of zero zero interest rate policy. Maybe you do, too. And it was an all you can eat buffet table of credit. And that buffet table was open for business for ten years. Well, now that we've hiked up the Fed funds rate from 0 to 5%.


Speaker 1 (00:08:28) - All right. Well, back on June 28th, Powell said that more restrictive policy is still the COB because they're continuing to fight inflation. And that includes the likelihood of quarter point interest rate hikes at consecutive meetings and two or more increases by the end of this year. Now, our frequent macro economist contributor here on the show, Richard Duncan. He says there is an unusual divergence between weak credit growth and solid economic growth. And that was probably brought about by the surge in savings from people's government checks during the pandemic. Well, if that divergence persists, then the Fed might have to raise rates even more than the half percent plus that they suggested is necessary by the end of this year. And Duncan says that the stock market is not prepared for the Fed rate to go from 5% today up to 6%. And if it does, the stock market could be in for a painful correction in the months ahead. Now, to my point about interest rates being hard to predict, some economists think that rates will generally fall after this year as well.


Speaker 1 (00:09:34) - So some people see it that way, but I think there are more now predicting that they will rise rather than fall. As the legendary investor that predicted that interest rates were going to go way higher when he was back here with us in 2019 is he joins us soon. We could have some challenging audio quality on this remote to Singapore, but people really hang on what Jim has to say. That's next. I'm Keith Wild. You're listening to episode 457 of Get Rich Education. With real estate capital Jacksonville. Real estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor since 2013. Genevieve is ready to help your money make money and to make it easy for everyday investors. Get started at GWB real Estate. Agree that's GWB Real estate agree Jerry Listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 42056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone.


Speaker 1 (00:10:49) - They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plex. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge personally, though, even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group. Hi, this is Russell Gray, co-host of the Real Estate Guys radio show. And you're listening to Get Rich Education with Keith Reinhold. Don't Quit Your Day Dreams. Today's guest is one of the most esteemed celebrated and legendary business moguls, investors and financial commentators of our time. He co-founded the Quantum Fund, one of the world's first truly global funds. He's created his own commodities index, his own ETF, and he is a popular author of a great many books. Welcome back. For your third appearance on Jim Rogers case. There's no reason to go into all that. I'm just a simple Earth. That's why people like listening to you, because you rather plain spoken on what some people deem to be some pretty complex concepts.


Speaker 1 (00:12:09) - So it's good to have you here joining remotely from where you live in Singapore. You were here with us in both 2019 and 2021 and in 2019 here on the show you said and I've got the quote right here, if you can borrow a lot of money for a long period of time at low interest rates, rush out and do it right now, That's what you said. That was prescient. And also in 2019 here on the show, you said, and I quote again, interest rates are going to go much, much, much higher over the next few decades and it is going to ruin a lot of people. And here we are today. So what are your thoughts with regard to interest rates and inflation here? Jim.


Speaker 4 (00:12:52) - You make many mistake. Please. It's made many, many mistakes and I'm sure hope I live long enough to make many, many more mistakes. Yes, interest rates are up. They're up substantially. It sent them, but it is not over yet. Interest rates will go much, much higher because we have friend, not just we, but central banks everywhere have printed huge amounts of money.


Speaker 4 (00:13:17) - And whenever you print lots of money, inflation, college interest rates go higher and the usual amount of money inflation gets very high. And that always leads to central banks having to raise interest rates too high level because they don't know what else to do. In 1980, before you were born, interest rates on central US government Treasury bills, 90 day Treasury bills, interest rates were over 21%. Gosh, that's not a typo. 21% because inflation was out of control and we had to take drastic measures, which meant you have to do something like that again.


Speaker 1 (00:13:58) - That would be interesting. So to bring us up to where we are right now, the federal funds rate is basically gone from 0 to 5% since last year. Mortgage rates rose from 3% to 7% just last year alone. And a lot of nations are jacking up interest rates. Turkey just decided that they are going to raise interest rates 6.5% all at once. And some people don't think that is enough. So here we are. I mean, you talked about what happened about 40 years ago.


Speaker 1 (00:14:27) - Can Jerome Powell engineer a soft landing? Does he have any chance of doing that where he can raise rates enough to quell inflation but yet not crash the economy?


Speaker 4 (00:14:37) - No, of course not. First of all, in 1980, America was still a creditor nation. Now with the largest detonation in the history of the world. Yeah, that's staggering. And they go up every week, and the amount of money that's been printed is beyond comprehension. I don't know how they can solve this problem without really getting drastic and taking interest rates to very high levels back in 1980. The Federal Reserve had the support of the president. The president told him to do whatever you have to do because the head of the central bank was all over. It was a smart man. He knew what he had to do, but he made sure he had political support before he did it. Now, the president did not get reelected because Volcker did what had to be done. We don't have as smart a central bank head now as we did then.


Speaker 4 (00:15:31) - And the amount of money that's been printed is overwhelming. And America's debt with the largest detonation in the history of the world and we were a creditor then. So there are things that are different. So he would be worried if I were you. In fact, I am worried, so I'll leave it to you. But I'm more.


Speaker 1 (00:15:50) - Well, that's right. Carter was a one term president. We'll see if Jerome Powell ends up breaking too many things. If Biden only ends up being a one term president, then as well, whether it's his fault or not, oftentimes the onus could fall on him. You bring up all this debt, the greatest detonation in the history of the world. And maybe the first time you and I spoke back in 2019, I don't know what our debt was then. Maybe it was 25 trillion. Now it's more than $32 trillion. Maybe just as concerning. More our debt to GDP ratio is about 121%. So I guess really what I'm getting at, Jim, is how will we know that things break and things are already breaking in a world of higher interest rates with failing banks and more stress in the commercial real estate market.


Speaker 1 (00:16:37) - So what else is going to break?


Speaker 4 (00:16:40) - Jimmy Carter did say to go do whatever you have to do and I will go you. I doubt Biden would say to the central bank, do whatever you have to do without or you. And I doubt if the central bank Powell, the head of the central bank, now really comprehend what he's gotten us into. You know, he kept saying all along, oh, don't worry, everything is under control. The secretary of the Treasury, Janet Yellen, he's got Ivy League degrees, also kept saying, don't worry, everything is under control. We know what we're doing. We do have different people this time, not many Paul Volcker's that comes along in history. To me, the indications are going to get worse. They will not solve the problem until we have a very, very serious problem. I'm not optimistic. Having said that, if I'm not selling short or anything else at the moment, I'm worried about the markets in a year or two. But at the moment, since nobody seems to understand what they're doing at the Reserve or in the presidency, we can have okay times for a while, but the ultimate problem gets worse and worse and worse unless you deal with it.


Speaker 1 (00:17:56) - I don't know whether the economy has been slowed down enough yet or not. So in the midst of higher interest rates, we continue to create an awful lot of jobs. But there's a greater body of work that shows a lot of these jobs are just jobs that have recovered, that were lost in the pandemic.


Speaker 4 (00:18:13) - The economy is not bad in the US, economy is still strong. You mentioned office. You'll have a lot of jobs. ET cetera. Yes, we have inflation, but inflation is not as bad as it was in the 70s. And you look out the window and everything seems okay. At the moment. I'm just worried about what's coming down the road because I know that some throughout history, if you print a huge amount of money, you create big problems.


Speaker 1 (00:18:41) - We are avid real estate investors here directly investing in real estate. And as we have this chat about inflation and interest rates is real estate investors, ideally we would have low interest rates and high inflation. However, those two are positively correlated.


Speaker 1 (00:18:57) - You typically have both high interest rates and high inflation or low interest rates in low inflation. That positive correlation.


Speaker 4 (00:19:05) - Inflation always in the history has led to higher interest rates for a variety of reasons, which I'm sure you understand. If history is any guide, interest rates are going to go much, much higher eventually. And then you know very well I interest rates are not good for property, not good for real estate investors. They never have that. Even if you don't have any big debt and you don't have that problem or mortgage problems or anything, maybe your neighbors do. And if your neighbors have problems, that means their property prices will go down and that's going to affect you because you're nearby and everybody will say, oh, that property is collapsing. What about teeth? And teeth can say, Oh, no, don't worry about me. I don't have any debt. They'll say, okay, you don't have any debt, but we can buy property in your neighborhood. Very cheap because your neighbors have problems.


Speaker 4 (00:20:06) - That gives you a problem.


Speaker 1 (00:20:08) - That's right. Fortunately, Americans have plenty of protective equity in their properties despite these higher rates. You know, residential real estate here in the second half of 2023 is still doing just fine, probably because there's still a scarce supply of residential real estate. You've got more people working from home driving demand for residential real estate. But of course, office real estate has probably been hit the worst, crunched by high interest rates and the work from home trend both. So really that's where we've seen so many of the cracks in the real estate world, especially around the office space. Where else might we see cracks as interest rates continue to go higher like you think they will?


Speaker 4 (00:20:46) - Well, again, throughout history, when interest rates go higher and it attracts investors and money and people take their money out of property or stocks or whatever with their money and say yielding is you can buy the Treasury bills at 21%. That's attractive to a lot of people. And that's, you know, risk free and it's very high return.


Speaker 4 (00:21:12) - So as interest rates go higher in attracts money from other investment classes in other areas, it's very simple. People are not that dumb. We know that if we can get high interest rates safe, they will do it. And we have to take a risk and the stock market or something else for that spike to do.


Speaker 1 (00:21:33) - Sure. Higher rates just incentivize a few more people to be savers as they can now safely get above 4% in these online bank accounts today, where they are getting pretty close to 0% just a couple years ago. We talk about real estate investment. Oftentimes here we talk about improved property on a piece of land. But of course, the more traditional use of real estate is growing crops on a piece of land. And I know you've been a long time agricultural investing enthusiast and a thought leader in agricultural real estate investing. What are your thoughts about agricultural real estate, since in these past few years really we've seen more of these erratic weather patterns that have resulted in things like reduced peach yields in Georgia and reduced ores yields in Florida.


Speaker 1 (00:22:21) - Something else, Jim, we've seen reduced coffee yield in Panama, that last one, that's sort of a fractional ownership investment that we featured on the show here. Fractional ownership investment in coffee farm parcels in Panama. That's created some problems with their yield. Of course, you can see that reflected in the low levels of the Panama Canal as well that looks to threaten the economy. But what are your thoughts about agricultural real estate in this erratic weather that we've had? Perhaps that's an opportunity if that's reflected in lower agricultural real estate prices?


Speaker 4 (00:22:52) - I'm optimistic about agricultural land prices because, you know, for a long time, nobody wants to be a farmer. The average age of farmers in America is 58. The average age in Japan is 66. Mean, I can go on and on. Although the highest rate of bankruptcy in the UK is in agriculture. So agricultural disaster worldwide for a long time and disaster usually leads to great opportunities. If you know how to drive a tractor, if you should go buy yourself some farmland and become a farmer, if you like getting hot and sweaty every day, it can be a very exciting way to live.


Speaker 4 (00:23:38) - I just see I know from history when something gets very bad for a long time, it usually leads to a great opportunity.


Speaker 1 (00:23:48) - Well, you are so experienced in commodities trading in the number one, the most traded commodity in the world is oil. And it seems that the oil price really isn't very high now, especially when you adjust that for all the inflation that we've had the past few years and of course the oil market and the oil price drives the prices of so many other downstream products. So what are your thoughts with regard to the oil market and where we're headed there? Jim.


Speaker 4 (00:24:16) - I know that known reserves of oil have peaked and are in decline just about worldwide. Does it mean it has to continue going up? But unless somebody finds a lot of oil quickly in accessible areas, the price of energy undoubtedly will go higher. The price of energy is going to stay high. Oil and natural gas, whether we like it or not, and I know we don't like it, but unless you wave a magic wand and you know, in Washington, they keep doing things that they don't help the supply of energy, they they damage it because they put restrictions and controls on energy.


Speaker 4 (00:24:55) - So unless something happens somewhere in the world pretty quickly, energy is not going to be cheap.


Speaker 1 (00:25:01) - Renewables like solar and wind may be the future, but oil has a high degree of energy density that a lot of those renewables still don't. We're talking with legendary investor Jim Rogers. He's joining us from Singapore. You talked about all this dollar printing, which has created inflation. And in order for central governments and central banks to get more control over people, discussion with Cbdcs central bank digital currencies has really percolated quite a bit in the past few years here. And with your international perspective, your world view. I'd like to know what your thoughts are on Cbdcs, whether you see a proliferation of it, where you see it starting for those that aren't aware of it. Central bank, digital currencies. That gives a government central control where all money is digital issued by the central authority, where your money can be stored digitally on your phone so that a central authority like a bank or a government can have control over you.


Speaker 1 (00:26:04) - For example, if your local economy is sagging, well, the government could tell you through your cbdc, your central bank, digital currency, for example, that you need to spend 30% of your income within a ten mile radius or else your money expires. Or this would give central authorities power to do something like say, you know, there's a curfew so you can't spend any of your money after 9 p.m. or this is where they could push ESG, environmental, social and governance agendas through targeting your spending or targeting your spending through diversity, equity and inclusion and getting more control that way through Cbdc. So what are your thoughts with the proliferation potentially of Cbdcs, Jim?


Speaker 4 (00:26:44) - We're all going to have digital money in the future, whether we like it or not. It already happened and China's way ahead of it. You can't take a tax in China with money. You have to have your digital money. Your own money. Yeah. And the ice cream in China with money. So it is happening. And nearly every country is working on computer money.


Speaker 4 (00:27:06) - Let's call it whatever you want to put your money. And governments love computer money is cheaper. It's easier. They don't have to transport it all they love. But mainly they love it because they've complete control over all of us. As you point out, they know everything you do. They'll call you up one day and say, Keith, you've had too much coffee this month. Stop drinking so much. Whatever it is, they love control and they love knowledge. I don't, but they do. So this is the world we're coming to. None of us will have money in our pockets except on our own. And yes, that's the new world. It's not far away in 2023. Okay. Anything that's not good for the citizen, Washington will catch up very fast if it's good for them. So no money is coming.


Speaker 1 (00:28:00) - Yeah. Let's hope the cbdcs don't turn up the coffee for anybody. This might make one wonder, you know, what can they do about it is you see more cbdc sentiment building in other nations with them potentially doing something like this.


Speaker 1 (00:28:15) - Is it a smart thing then for someone rather than store dollars, to instead borrow dollars by having loans on real estate? Or is it better to just completely be out of the government system of currency issuance or at least park more of your prosperity outside of the government system of dollars and euros and pesos and riyals and yen, and instead into a non governmental alternative like gold or Bitcoin. Would that be a better path? What are your thoughts there?


Speaker 4 (00:28:44) - When the government says, okay, now this is money, they're not going to say, okay, but if you want to use that money over there, use their money. We don't care. Governments love control and they love Monopoly, especially when it comes to money. So there may be competing types of money that you dollars now anyway. I guess you and I could swap gold coins or seashells or something if we wanted to. Most of the people in the US use government money and that's the way it's going to be. Whether we like it or not, the government has the monopoly.


Speaker 4 (00:29:22) - They have the guns. And if you can say, All right, I'm not going to use government money, I'll say, okay, but you're not going to be able to pay your taxes, then you're money. You're not going to be able to buy a driver's license or pay your other fees with other money. You're going to have to use government approved money.


Speaker 1 (00:29:42) - Well, the government tried to shut down ownership of gold like they did previously or Bitcoin, which would be unprecedented. I'm talking about the United States government, especially in this case or other developed economies.


Speaker 4 (00:29:54) - But when the US took away the right to go in 30s, that was gold was the basis for. Monetary system. It is much, much, much more important to the world economy. Then gold is not that important in the world's economy now. It's important, but so is right. So a lot of stuff. So I doubt if they will take gold away again. I don't see them outlawing digital money currency unless it becomes very successful and competitive to the government.


Speaker 4 (00:30:30) - Then they'll do. They always have.


Speaker 1 (00:30:33) - Bitcoin's market cap is still under $1 trillion, but increasingly you do have more and more politicians that own Bitcoin and there are a few advocates for Bitcoin there in Congress. So if that's the change you want to see, maybe you want to vote in people that are promoting the holding of prosperity outside of US dollars really by being Bitcoin advocates in Congress there. That's one thing that you can possibly do. But we talk about gold and silver. You know, I really like the fact that it is scarce. Just like Bitcoin has scarcity. There will never be more than 21 million Bitcoin. And of course gold and silver have a finite supply.


Speaker 4 (00:31:14) - Well, but first of all, please remember many digital currencies, not Bitcoin, but many have already disappeared and gone to zero.


Speaker 1 (00:31:23) - And there are some Bitcoin critics out there that say something like, well, there have been more than 20,000 cryptocurrencies. So what makes Bitcoin any better? Well, I think the fact that a lot of these cryptocurrencies that have little or no utility or mean coins, so if they come by and then they die, I don't think that should diminish Bitcoin in its utility in any way.


Speaker 1 (00:31:42) - Just like there have been over 20,000 stocks in history. And if a new stock comes by that doesn't have any value or any fundamentals and it fails, it doesn't diminish the market cap leader Apple one bit at all. So I don't think it's a valid comparison to say that just because a new cryptocurrency comes and goes that shouldn't diminish or knock Bitcoin at all, just like it shouldn't Apple, if a flashy new stock comes by and dies?


Speaker 4 (00:32:06) - Well, throughout history, money has come and gone. People use seashells, people use cows, People use lots of things, glass beads all over the world. You know, the US was founded on a silver standard at 1792. Silver was the basis for the US currency that later changed to gold.


Speaker 1 (00:32:27) - What's so interesting, Jim, written in our United States Constitution, it stated that gold and silver shall be money, but of course it's not. In Nixon completely departed the last vestige of that in 1971. Yet there was no amendment written to the Constitution to supersede it.


Speaker 1 (00:32:47) - Gold and silver shall be money when it comes to currency and how one measures the prosperity in the United States. It is the dollar. We know it's going to continue to be the dollar for some period of time yet, and you can't get too many certainties in investing. And really the second near certainty we can get is that the dollar is going to continue to diminish in value. So that's why rather than save it, we borrow for real estate. Jim, wrap it up here. In this world of higher inflation, though, it's come down in higher interest rates where you tend to think they will keep going higher. What should one do, maybe especially a younger person today, You know, any direction that you would have for a younger person, a younger investor, or maybe that's even investing in themselves and developing skills themselves. So what are your thoughts?


Speaker 4 (00:33:33) - They're all investors. Young, old, whatever should invest only in what they themselves know a lot about. If you want to be successful, don't listen to somebody on the TV or in the magazine or even on the Internet.


Speaker 4 (00:33:48) - You know your program. They should invest only in what they know about you. Listen to somebody and she said, Buy X and you buy x and x goes up. You don't know what to do because you don't know why you bought it. Right? X goes down, you don't know what to do because you don't know why you bought it. So if you want to be successful, just stay with what you yourself know a lot about. You might say that's boring. Be boring If you want to be successful, be boring. You know, invest in what you know. And I cannot tell you how important that is for all investors, young or old.


Speaker 1 (00:34:31) - Yeah, well, to sum it up on rates, Jim Rogers said that governments have debt, therefore governments will keep printing. So then governments will raise rates to keep inflation in check. Remember, just last year, a lot of people didn't think that Powell would have the guts to raise rates so high. Well, he sure did. Who else did I ask about how high interest rates will go? Will, I asked you on our get Recession Instagram poll, the majority of you think.


Speaker 1 (00:35:01) - That the Fed rate will exceed 6%. And again, it's about 5% now. All right. Well, then with mortgage rates around six and three quarters now, perhaps they'd go up to about 8%. But of course, mortgage rates don't track the Fed rate in lockstep. They more closely follow the yield on the ten year note. Now, this is really interesting for real estate investors when inflation is low. So interest rates, well, in those environments, real estate people seem to love that. But you know what? Those two things pretty much cancel out. Well, since we're big borrowers as real estate investors, you get less benefit from low inflation and more benefit from low interest rates, just like high inflation and high interest rates cancel out because now you've got your debt being debase faster and a greater interest expense to pay. So really it's a wash either way. If for some reason real estate investors seem to be more concerned about high interest than they are thinking about the benefits of the high inflation and in fact, real estate investors, hey, we can totally have our cake and eat it too, because when inflation goes high, well, you can stay fixed on your low interest rates.


Speaker 1 (00:36:16) - And then when inflation and rates go low, you can refinance. So savvy real estate investors then in fact benefit from the inflation and interest rate dance. This kind of tango that they do where they stay together. If you enjoy the show here each week, do you mind doing something as a give back that takes less than two minutes of your time? Leave a podcast rating and review. The fastest way to do this is just perform a search. Either search how to leave in Apple Podcasts Review, or how to leave a Spotify podcast review. I'd be grateful that helps others find the show. And we've got a bunch of terrific episodes coming up for you here on Gray, providing you with free content and reliably showing up for you every week. I would greatly appreciate your podcast rating in review. Again, it's easiest to simply search how to leave an Apple Podcasts Review or how to leave a Spotify podcast review until next week. I'm your host, Keith Weintraub. Don't quit, dude. Adrian.


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Are you curious about the direction of rents and property prices? 

In this episode of Get Rich Education, host Keith Weinhold dives into the absolute 100% certainty of a housing crash and how mortgage rates affect home prices. 

Keith is interviewed by Ken McElroy.

He also shares the importance of real estate in reducing taxes and increasing income. 

Keith discusses the attractive pricing and inflation in Ohio, and the benefits of investing in new build properties. 

He even touches on the increasing gold purchases by central banks and the potential impact on personal finances. 

Don't miss out on these valuable insights and learn about the prospects for a housing crash. Tune in now!

Title [00:01:37]

Advertisement for Freedom Family Investments

An advertisement for Freedom Family Investments and the benefits of investing in real estate.

Title [00:02:00]

Introduction to Get Rich Education

Keith White introduces the podcast episode and talks about the longevity and popularity of the show.

Title [00:03:54]

Real Estate Price Gains Since the Start of the Pandemic

Keith White discusses the cumulative home price appreciation in different regions since February 2020.

Title [00:12:33]

Discussion on the attractiveness of real estate pricing and the impact on renters.

Title [00:15:08]

Keith's personal experience of starting with a fourplex and the concept of house hacking.

Title [00:19:38]

Exploring the house hack model as a solution to affordability issues and leveraging other people's money for real estate investment.

Title [00:22:12]

Investing Out of State

The speaker discusses the benefits of investing in real estate out of state and the importance of choosing the right market and team.

Title [00:24:58]

Importance of Prioritizing Market and Team

The speaker emphasizes the importance of prioritizing the market and team before considering the property in real estate investing.

Title [00:27:19]

Supply Crash vs Price Crash

The speaker explains the significance of the housing supply crash that occurred in April 2020 and how it affects property prices and homelessness.

Title [00:31:51]

Inflation Measurement Challenges

Discussion on the difficulty of accurately measuring inflation due to various factors such as personal preferences and hedonic adjustments.

Title [00:34:05]

Housing's Impact on Inflation and Interest Rates

Exploration of the significant contribution of housing to the Consumer Price Index (CPI) and its implications for future interest rate changes.

Title [00:35:38]

Paradox of Rising Mortgage Rates and Home Prices

Explanation of the counterintuitive relationship between rising mortgage rates and increasing home prices, with historical data supporting this trend.

Title [00:42:28]

Advantages of Investing in New Build Properties

Discussion on why it makes more sense now to look at new build properties than in the recent past.

Title [00:43:49]

Feasibility of Building vs Buying in Different Markets

Comparison of the cost per unit for acquiring existing properties versus building new ones in different markets.

Title [00:46:28]

Turnkey Rental Properties and Scarcity as an Investment Theme

Exploration of the concept of turnkey rental properties and the importance of investing in scarce assets like real estate, gold, and bitcoin.

Topic 1: Central banks buying gold [00:51:38]

Discussion on how central banks are buying gold as a way to store value and hedge against the inflation and debasement of the US dollar.

Topic 2: Increasing geopolitical uncertainty and gold [00:52:36]

Exploration of how geopolitical events, such as trade agreements and conflicts, have led to increased uncertainty and a rise in the price of gold.

Topic 3: Reasons why home prices won't crash [00:56:46]

Explanation of several reasons why home prices are unlikely to crash, including a shortage of homes, strict lending guidelines, government intervention to prevent foreclosures, and the slowing of new home construction due to higher interest rates.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:


Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, with a crucial update on the direction of rents and property prices. Then a discussion between Ken McElroy and I where I posit to his audience about why a housing crash is 100% certain and why what mortgage rates do to home prices is exactly the opposite of what everyone thinks. And more today on Get Rich Education. Taxes are your biggest expense. The best way to reduce your burden is real estate. Increase your income with amazing returns and reduce your taxable income with real estate write offs. As an employee with a high salary, you're devastated by taxes. Lighten your tax burden. With real estate incentives, you can offset your income from a W-2 job and from capital gains freedom. Family Investments is the experience partner you've been looking for. The Real Estate Insider Fund is that vehicle. This fund invests in real estate projects that make an impact, and you can join with as little as $50,000. Insiders get preferred returns of 10 to 12%. This means you get paid first.


Speaker 1 (00:01:08) - Insiders enjoy cash flow on a quarterly basis, and the tax benefits are life changing. Join the Freedom Family and become a real estate insider. Start on your path to financial freedom through passive income. Text Family to 66866. This is not a solicitation and is for accredited investors only. Please text family to 66866 for complete details.


Speaker 2 (00:01:37) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world.


Speaker UU (00:01:44) - This is Get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:02:00) - Working from Hot Springs, Arkansas, to Palm Springs, California, and across 188 nations worldwide. You're listening to one of America's longest-running and most listened to shows on real estate. This is Get Rich Education. I'm your host and my name is Keith Weinhold. And with 456 weekly episodes, you probably know that by now. Hey, I'm really grateful that you're here. Carefully chosen buy and hold Real estate is not day trading. Rather it is decade trading. Yeah. I'm a decade trader. Perhaps you're one two. You just haven't thought of it that way before.


Speaker 1 (00:02:41) - When I was recently with Ken McElroy in person in his studio in Scottsdale, Arizona, we produced a terrific media interview and conversation together that I'm going to share with you later today. But first, you know, it's not just you're out of control. Trader Joe's grocery bill. The entire world seems to be losing its battle with inflation. U.S inflation is still double where the powers that be want it. The UK recently stunned markets will need jacked up interest rates a half point to the highest level in 15 years. The ECB, Australia, Canada, Switzerland and Norway. They have all announced recent rate hikes. But Turkey Turkey is raising rates and astounding. 6.5%. Yeah, you heard that right. 6.5% all in one fell swoop. That's how much interest rates are going up there. Yet many say that it's not enough for them to get on top of their wildly out of control inflation. Now, let's get into a few real estate numbers here before my fantastic chat with real estate influencer in Great Guy Ken McElroy.


Speaker 1 (00:03:54) - Now here's a great set of real estate numbers since inflation has hit real estate too. Okay, we'll talk about rents in a moment, but let's talk price first with credit to John Burns, Real Estate Consulting. Let's look at American real estate price gains since the start of the pandemic. Okay. So this is not annual. This is cumulative starting in February of 2020 up to today. Here we go. There is a national home price appreciation figure and then it's broken into ten regions. And I think this regional breakup is kind of quirky, and I'll tell you why in a moment. But nationally, since the start of the pandemic, national real estate is up 36%. But let's stop and think about what that means for a moment. Well, since that time, February 2020, which is when these figures are all tracked back to, has the real rate of inflation also been 36%? I'll just say that the answer is yes. Well, then real estate has no inflation adjusted gain in all that time.


Speaker 1 (00:05:03) - Well, here are the ten regions cumulative gain since that time. Okay. Going from lowest to highest, Northern California is up 27%. The Northeast up 29%. The northwest is up 32%. Southern California up 33% cumulatively since that time, about three and a half years here. The Midwest is also up 33%. The Southwest up 38%. Texas up 40%. The Southeast up 46%. North Florida up 50%. A lot of castle markets there in north Florida, too. And the top appreciating region, according to this stat set since February of 2020 with 56% cumulative home price appreciation is South Florida. Yeah, up 56%. And now some of those regions mentioned like in the West, they were actually up more than this a few months ago and they've given back a little bit of their gain. But that is a great stat set. The only thing that seems quirky about the methodology to me is that you've got Florida and California, each with two stat sets, yet the entire Northeast is lumped in together without, say, breaking out New England.


Speaker 1 (00:06:26) - But I don't know, There might be a reason for the odd amalgamations there. I might look into that. Maybe that's just some regional bias or some concern there. Since I am a Northeastern guy, I think that by now, any long time listener knows that I'm from Pennsylvania and have lived most of my life there. I'm in Pennsylvania every year and I like to avoid hot summers, so I spend my summertime and more time in Anchorage. AK So fantastic home price appreciation in the past three and a half years, partially demand driven. Partially inflation driven, you know, three plus years ago, a lot of people, but never me, a lot of people, including real estate influencers, they said that the pandemic would be awful for both real estate and stocks because people would lose their jobs and lose their homes and businesses would shut down. Oh, no. We talked here about agree with it or not, the government's safety net is on its way and it came with the PPE and the Cares Act and everything else.


Speaker 1 (00:07:29) - I mean, Biden won't let people lose their homes. That's what was going on back then. And then in late 2021, I stated Jerry's National Home Appreciation forecast that home prices would rise between 9 and 10% in 2022. They ended up rising 10.2%. And then you remember that late last year I forecast that there really wouldn't be much of any national home price movement this year. Okay, 0%. I am on record right here on the show saying that then and here we are near the year's midpoint. And I like how that forecast is looking. And it was interesting. Late last year,, they predicted 5.4% national home price appreciation for this year. Well, just last week they revised it down to a drop of 6/10 of 1%. Okay. So basically they've gone to 0% as well, much like I forecast late last year. But of course in our core investor areas of the inland in the south, home prices, they are rising just a little this year. What about rents? That's something you might care about more.


Speaker 1 (00:08:42) - CoreLogic They tell us that rents for both single family homes and apartments are up 4% year over year, and that's really unremarkable. That's just the historic long term norm. And it's really been interesting how the rent growth rate for single family homes and apartments has just been remarkably similar, like shadowing each other. But the real story is that rent growth has really decelerated because national rent growth, it peaked at about 14% a year and a half ago. And now among Single-family rental homes, what you'd expect in inflation is happening. High end property rents are up just 2% because they're the least affordable. And then the more affordable low end rents are up 6%. And like anatomy, there are so many ways to parse real estate. There are so many ways to dissect the frog here. So let's look at rental growth by region. And it's from that chart that I shared with you in last week's Don't Quit Your Daydream Letter. Rents are down 2% in the West. They are up 1%. In the South. They're up 5% in the Midwest and they're up 5% in the Northeast as well.


Speaker 1 (00:10:02) - And what's been persistently steadiest is the Midwest price growth in rent growth. I mean, they're in the Midwest. That is like as stable as the clover honey that's in your pantry right now. And also, did you know that honey is the only food that doesn't spoil? Did you know that? Yes. Yeah. It's also stable, so it doesn't need mixing either. Stable like Midwestern real estate. And that's the reason that's had that best ratio of high rents to a low purchase price, which is really that key metric that you care about as a real estate investor. Now, for example, let's take a look at this specific property in Exact Street address from Marketplace. I mean, this is a great example. This is 224 Baltimore Street in Middletown, Ohio. Middletown is between Cincinnati and Dayton. Okay. This duplex here has a monthly rent income of $1,400 total from both sides. The price is $139,900. And this duplex is substantially rehabbed. And the $1,400 rent that's broken down by $800 comes from the two bed one bath side and $600 from the one bed, one bath side.


Speaker 1 (00:11:26) - The duplex is 1680 eight square feet. It's in a classy neighborhood and the rental status is that both sides are already leased. Okay, So when you have an existing property like this, sometimes you have that as the advantage. It's leased and on a duplex when you have both sides leased, you know what questions I would want to know before I buy a duplex like this? What is the rent payment history of those tenants on each side of the duplex and where are they employed? I mean, one might have been paying the rent. But if they're employed at the malls, pop up, stand for 4th of July fireworks or something, Well, I would want to know that. Or if their employment is more stable than something like that. So this 140 duplex is something you could buy with a 25% down payment. So even with closing costs, you're in there for under 50 K. So yes, they're in America's seventh most populous state of Ohio and might take on a property like this. Is that this duplex that's for you? If you're more interested in cash flow than you are appreciation.


Speaker 1 (00:12:33) - I mean, my gosh does pricing like this almost make you feel like inflation missed Ohio? That's how it feels in hey, that's what attracts renters as well. And you can find their property in more like them, including an increasing proportion of new build property nationwide from Florida to Indiana to Texas to Coming up in this interview with Ken, where I was a guest on his show, you're going to hear me say some things that you might have heard me say before, but I sort of say them in a different way when someone else sees interviewing me and I talk about including why there is a 100% certainty of a housing crash in a few other surprising things. And then at the end I discuss some new things that I have not discussed previously, including what I personally champion and invest in myself outside of real estate. We don't run with the herd on the mainland, but you know, here in Jerry, we are not an island to ourselves either because the dust from the herd affects us. Our investing philosophy is on a profitable, I suppose, peninsula, if you will.


Speaker 1 (00:13:48) - That's why I definitely say things that you don't expect to hear in this interview. And you know what? If someone only says what you expected to hear, that would probably be a disappointment and a waste of your time and you wouldn't learn anything. A critical real estate conversation between Ken McElroy and I, straight ahead. I'm Keith Reinhold. You're listening to Get Rich Education. With real estate capital Jacksonville. Real estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor since 2013. Genevieve is ready to help your money make money and to make it easy for everyday investors. Get started at GWB Real estate. Agree That's GWB Real estate. Agree. Jerry listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 42056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plex.


Speaker 1 (00:15:08) - So start your prequalification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge personally, though even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group. This is Richard Duncan, publisher and Macro Watch. Listen to get rich education with cheap wine and don't quit your day drinks. Hey, everybody. I'm here with Keith Reinhold. Welcome back. Hey, it's so good to be here. It's interesting. I was last here in January of 2021. And remember, Ken, that's when we talked about how you can profit from inflation. Inflation was only 1.5% back then. So for all the viewers and listeners, had they watched that, they really were profited from that surge of inflation, we should go back and check that one out again, you know, because I remember that discussion was fabulous. And now now that's kind of the hot topic, the hot topic for sure. So Keith has a great company. It's called Get Rich Education. Before we go down that road, let's talk about how you started, because most people, you know, they struggle with just getting started.


Speaker 1 (00:16:22) - And I know you started with a fourplex. Yes. And you know, this is something very actionable for you, the listener, the viewer there. You can start off like I did. I didn't have a lot of money when I started out. I think that's a common investor's story. So how could I do more with less? And, you know, I was in Anchorage, Alaska, at the time when I was about to buy my first fourplex building, and I didn't have the inclination to know how to remodel places or be a landlord or anything like that. And, you know, Ken, it's a quote we've all heard, but it bears repeating the circle of friends I had fallen in with Harkins, the Jim Rohn quote, You are the average of the five people that you spend the most time with. Take your five closest friends income level. Take their educational attainment level, take the way they dress your five closest friends. If you want to change yourself, change your five. In two of my five in Anchorage, what I call pretty aspirational guys and two of my friends, they had made their first ever property a fourplex building with just a 3.5% down payment.


Speaker 1 (00:17:25) - So I learned how to do this from them. And you can still do this today. All you have to do is live in one of the units at least 12 months and just have a minimum credit score of 580. You can do that with a single family home, duplex, triplex or fourplex. That's how you can start with a bang and a small down payment. Yeah, we call that house hacking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talk a lot about this and I don't think people really realize, you know, and if you move into one side of a duplex and you buy a duplex with with this low money down and the lower credit score, you're basically you might not have a lot of cash flow if you live on the other side. But what you are is you're eliminating that huge expense that might have been for rent or something else, right? That's right, 100%. You know, everybody has their wacky landlord story. So I bought my first property living in one unit of the fourplex, renting out the other three.


Speaker 1 (00:18:16) - And like a duplex, like you said, where you might live. Did you tell me you were the owner? I because that's always thing. Yeah. You know, after a while after I got the new tenants in there, actually after I had moved offsite to another place, I didn't really want to admit I'm the owner. They ask all kinds of crazy things, but, you know, everything didn't go perfectly. For example, you know, shortly after I moved in, it was time for a tenant to pay the rent. It was the first that was due. They said they pay it the fifth. I was like, Oh, yeah, sure. Okay, whatever. Well, of course they didn't. I had to replace them. And you know how I qualified my next tenant in that vacant unit? What the qualifications were. Three females applied. They were attractive. So I let him move into the unit next to me based primarily on the fact that they were attractive. Well, that didn't work out very well.


Speaker 1 (00:19:00) - They had parties and they did not invite their landlord to the party. So everyone's got their wacky landlord story that's mine, but that's how you can start big. It is a good way to do it. And I think I don't think a lot of people realize that they can do that. So a lot of people I know are struggling with these affordability issues. So, you know, we've seen since our last podcast, you and I did, we've seen massive inflation, massive rent growth, obviously massive interest rate growth, which has driven people's mortgages up and doubling people, the mortgage payments up, plus we have all the inflationary components that I just mentioned. This is the best time to look at that house hack model because, you know, why wouldn't you grow.


Speaker 3 (00:19:38) - With inflation if you can do it with a with a two unit or four unit? Right now, there are some restrictions for for units and underwriters there something where if you go over that, it's a different kind of loan.


Speaker 1 (00:19:50) - That's right.


Speaker 1 (00:19:51) - Four units is the most you can do with that FHA loan in 3.5% down. So it's single family home, duplex, triplex or fourplex. And if you have VA Veterans Administration benefits, you can use that same plan with zero down. Believe it or not. It's a great way to start with the bank. Yeah.


Speaker 3 (00:20:07) - So you guys really need to look into this. If you could replace your living expenses large of the largest one, which is obviously typically rent and utilities and all that, then why wouldn't you?


Speaker 1 (00:20:20) - Yeah. And you know, here's the thing. Here's the takeaway. And I didn't understand this until I had owned that first fourplex for a couple of years. I think we've all learned we've all been influenced by the mantra that you don't want to invest with your money. You can build wealth profoundly by ethically employing other people's money. We're talking about doing it ethically. Providing people with housing that's clean, safe, affordable and functional. With that fourplex like I just described, I was using other people's money three ways at the same time.


Speaker 1 (00:20:50) - And you can do it too, because I use the bank's money for the loan and leverage. I use the tenant's money for the income that you were just talking about to offset all the building expenses and the mortgage payments. And then thirdly, I was using the government's money for very generous tax incentives, use other people's money three ways at the same time with the loan for income property, that's really going to accelerate your wealth building.


Speaker 3 (00:21:15) - That's right. That's right. And can you with that also do it with the down payment? That might be a fourth way.


Speaker 1 (00:21:21) - There are creative ways. For example, I know with FHA, sometimes you can get a gift. So that's a very astute question.


Speaker 3 (00:21:27) - Yeah. So that's another thing that a lot of people don't think about is, you know, I know with the FHA program, they're going to be looking at you. But there are there are ways to get gifts.


Speaker 1 (00:21:38) - That's right. And really use other people's money for the entire thing with keep using other people's money all that you can.


Speaker 3 (00:21:45) - The point is, guys, all can be OPM or other people's money. And that is the point. And so if you can't look into that, then it's now just an excuse. So let's talk about like you've done a very successful job of going out of state, out of the network and, and buying real estate. How have you done that? Because a lot of people are freaking out around, you know, how do I do I stay local? Do I go out of state? There's a lot of things to consider.


Speaker 1 (00:22:12) - I don't invest in my own local market. In fact, can I sell my last local meaning local to Anchorage, Alaska? I sold my last local apartment building last year. It's the first time in 20 years since I bought that first fourplex building. I don't own any local properties. I do all my investing out of state in investor advantage markets in the Midwest and South. And I know to some people it's scary to go out of state for the first time. You know, for some reason with stocks, people feel quite comfortable with, you know, buying stock for a company.


Speaker 1 (00:22:41) - They don't even know where that company's headquartered. But with real estate and something called turnkey real estate investing, that's one way to go across state lines. But really, here's my mindset in getting comfortable without estate investing, this is how I think of it. Can The property is only the fourth most important thing in real estate investing, and if you're thinking about investing, you often start by thinking about, okay, what would my next property be? It's important. But there are three things more important. Number one is you. What do you want real estate to do for you? This is what I like to share with people. Can Secondly is what market are you in? Thirdly, what's the team of professionals, especially your property manager, that you choose to surround yourself with? And then fourthly and only fourthly is the property. So let's go through that. It starts with you. What do you want real estate to do for you? Or are you looking for cash flow, which is common, or appreciation or tax advantages or a lifestyle benefit? Like maybe you want to live in it yourself.


Speaker 1 (00:23:37) - Once you've got that figured out what you want real estate to do for you, the market is the next most important thing. There is more risk with being in a little ho dunk market of 6000 people where half the employment is tied to the zinc mine than you think. So I like to be in larger metros have a diversification of economic sectors, something that you really excel in. Can So the market's at second thing because you need to have a place that's going to be filled with tenants. And when you buy your property, you need to have a reasonable expectation that 18 months down the road you're going to have another tenant that's going to be able to come in and fill that property. And then the third most important thing is the manager, your team. I mean, a bad property manager would drive a good property into the ground because you want this to be relatively passive. And fourthly and only fourthly is that property. And you know what happens. Can I see this happen? So often people get a 100% backwards.


Speaker 1 (00:24:30) - They go for three, two, one. First, they get all excited about a property and buy it because it has pretty blue shutters. Then they try to figure out if there's a good manager in the market because they don't like to get texts from tenants. And then secondly, they try to figure out the market that they bought in and it's too late. And then they go back to number one, which you're just so far out of line. And this is why a lot of people say that real estate doesn't work. So, again, the property is only the fourth most important thing. It starts with you market and team first. Yeah, I.


Speaker 3 (00:24:58) - Find that key. They do go for three, two, one all the time. Right? It drives me nuts because, you know, as you know and most professionals go one, two, three, four. And I think what happens is if when they get to one, they're they're figuring it out. You know, they need you to start there because it certainly clears up the vision, right?


Speaker 1 (00:25:18) - Yeah, 100%.


Speaker 1 (00:25:19) - And, you know, you intrinsically know this, but you just haven't thought it through before. Like, for example, you already know that the market is more important than the property. A giant mansion in a swamp outside Charleston, West Virginia, is not worth much, but yet a tiny 400 square foot efficiency apartment in the Tribeca neighborhood of Manhattan. Can be worth an awful lot. It's just reinforces the fact that the market's more important than the property and a lot of people get it wrong and always.


Speaker 3 (00:25:46) - Has been and always will be because you can you can screw up a purchase in a market that's going like this and you'll still look like a star.


Speaker 1 (00:25:55) - Yeah. And this will be true a decade and maybe even a century know. Yeah.


Speaker 3 (00:25:59) - So that's why the market is so important. So let's talk about the most controversial thing here, which is why there is 100% certainty, 100% of a housing crash. This is a I heard you talk about this and we talked a little bit about it for the podcast.


Speaker 3 (00:26:16) - I said, let's just wait, wait, wait, Let's talk about it on the podcast.


Speaker 1 (00:26:20) - There is a 100% certainty of a housing crash. And one might be wondering, first of all, how could you say that no one has complete clairvoyance to know the future? And the reason there is a 100% certainty of a housing crash in this era is because it already occurred. It happened in April of 2020, More than three years ago. It was a housing supply crash, not a price crash. In fact, the fact that we have had a supply crash really hedges against any sort of price crash. So using Freddie Mac data and I shared the chart with you before I came over to this video here so that you could see the backup. There are so many ways to go ahead and measure the available supply of homes, but about 1.5 million is what you'll see, Fred. The Federal Reserve economic data, about 1.5 million has historically been the amount of available homes going back to 2016. It began to fall after that with what happened in the health crisis.


Speaker 1 (00:27:19) - It plummeted in April of 2020 to 600,000 units and it still hasn't rebounded and it's continued to fall. So it's a 60% supply crash, 1.5 million down to less than 600,000 now. And that's what hedges against a price crash. That's why prices are continuing to stay buoyant at whatever demand level. The supply is really low, and that helps keep a bid on property. And really, I'd like to share with you the profundity of the fact that we've had a supply crash, not a price crash. I mean, think about this. We're the most powerful nation in the world, by so many measures, were the most powerful nation as far as political positioning and our military and our currency and our brand, the most powerful nation in the world. And we have trouble housing our own people. I mean, we're talking about food, shelter, safety, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, base level stuff here. So it's actually a bigger deal then a price crash. If you think about it, you may very well see more more homeless people in your in your hometown, for example.


Speaker 1 (00:28:25) - So the crash already occurred. A supply crash, not a price crash. Yeah. Yeah.


Speaker 3 (00:28:29) - It's important distinction, I think. I think people really need back up from this a little bit and understand where things are headed. You know, we have affordability problems. We definitely have homelessness issues creeping up. And so what really, really challenged everybody were these federal funds, increases in interest rates that went up. So all of a sudden, you know, we've also had the largest delta between rents and the the average mortgage price. So you got mortgages here. So rents and mortgages were kind of trending along at a pretty, you know, pretty equal amount. But now because of the whole prices that went up and the interest rates went up, there's a big, big gap between rents, even though rents have gone up. So that's also keeping people in their houses because they've got the 6%, let's say five, 6% interest rates, but they bought them at three. So they have this trapped equity, right? So so if you own a home that's 500 grand and you you have 3% on it, you're not going to move.


Speaker 1 (00:29:39) - Right? No, it's the mortgage interest rate lock in. Yeah, And that's a really astute point, Ken, because this plays in to the national dearth of supply on Iraq, 1.5 million available units down to 600,000. I talked to just lay people in everyday homeowners that have become landlords because they say, I don't want to sell my home. And it's 3.25% interest rate. So when I move out of it, I just want to hold on to that loan and rent it out. In the United States, you can't move your mortgage along with your property like that. So it's that interest rate lock in effect, that property, rather than coming up for sale, which would increase supply, doesn't it stays put. And almost two thirds of mortgage borrowers in the United States have a mortgage rate of 4% or.


Speaker 3 (00:30:24) - Less, a staggering number. It is. So I always tell people, Keith, you know, when I was growing up, cash was an asset, right? That was a liability. But now it's the opposite.


Speaker 3 (00:30:35) - Cash is now a liability because inflation. If you're if you have it in the bank is running faster and harder than what you're getting in interest. And now that debt at 3%, let's say, is an asset, you would actually be selling the property and you'll be getting rid of that asset. You can't borrow at 3% today because that is OPM or other people's money like we talked about.


Speaker 1 (00:31:00) - Right, Right. And if I borrow from a bank, say I'm a borrower and I want to take a loan from you. Well, of course, if I can do that at an interest rate, that's less than the rate of inflation. I want to do that because it's profitable. And how the mechanics of that work actually is when I repay Ken the bank in this case, every month that dollar debases on him faster than his interest can accrue on me. That's profitable for you if you can find that it's getting a little harder to find. But you can in some situations, still get interest rates lower than inflation.


Speaker 1 (00:31:33) - And inflation is such a fluffy number. We know that the CPI is manipulated with substitution and weighting and things, but if you can borrow at less than real inflation, that's exactly the transaction you're profiting from.


Speaker 3 (00:31:43) - What do you think real inflation is? Because I, I'm all over the Internet trying to figure this out, you know, and I go to all the shadow stats and all the things.


Speaker 1 (00:31:51) - Yeah, that's good that you're in shadow stats. There isn't really a good accurate way to measure inflation. I mean Ken and I a for next door neighbors were going to pay different rates of inflation. Say one of us is a vegetarian and the other eats beat then inflation in the price of steak affects one of us, but not the other. So if he commutes more than I do, gasoline prices affect him more than me. It's very difficult to pin down what the real rate of inflation is. There are hedonic reasons as well. Hedonic means pleasure seeking. So, for example, if home values go up 10% in a year, but now it's more common for homes to have quartz countertops in them a year later and they didn't have that in the homes of yesteryear.


Speaker 1 (00:32:33) - How do you adjust inflation for that? Because you're getting a better standard of living with quartz countertops. So this is why can and anyone has such a hard time pinning it down to what's the real inflation number. It's really nebulous.


Speaker 3 (00:32:45) - And I do know it's more.


Speaker 1 (00:32:48) - We do know it's more than what the CPI is reporting. How much more? No.


Speaker 3 (00:32:52) - One. I know it's true. It's all over the map. But I got to tell you, man, things are creeping up. You know, we were you know, my wife and I were you know, we just go to dinner and it's 100 bucks now. I mean, there's all these things that are there a lot more. But one thing is for sure, guys, if you can have an interest rate less than inflation, you're beating the market. That's the important thing to understand. And that's why, you know, go go the way back to Rich dad, poor dad with Kiyosaki. He was way ahead of his time when he said cash is trash.


Speaker 3 (00:33:27) - And, you know, savers are losers. And he doesn't mean that you are a loser. What he means is savers are losing money as compared with inflation. Back then, it was 2%. So now it's obviously more. Right?


Speaker 1 (00:33:41) - Yeah. And you know, really with inflation, I think the word is noticeable. No one talked about it when it was about 2% these past few years when it was right around the Fed target. It isn't until it became noticeable that it really became a thing. And you know, what do they say? What's Walmart greater say? They no longer say hello at the door. Instead, they just apologized for what's about to happen to you in there. It's noticeable.


Speaker 3 (00:34:05) - I noticed I was digging into the CPI or the Consumer Price Index recently for a video I was doing and I saw that housing was 44% of that number.


Speaker 1 (00:34:14) - Yeah. Between rent and owners equivalent rent, those two measures contribute to the CPI.


Speaker 3 (00:34:19) - So that's a lot. So think about that because I know, you know, what does that mean To me? That means that the Fed is not done increasing rates because, you know, I guess now they're reporting it at five.


Speaker 3 (00:34:33) - But if 44% of that 5% is housing in theory, then it looks to me like they're going to they're going to clip away at more of these federal funds rates. Right. What do you think?


Speaker 1 (00:34:46) - That's right. A lot of people think the Fed pivot will come later this year. The Fed pivot means when they stop hiking, which is increasing rates and begin to lower rates. I've got something really almost pretty trippy, really on interest rates to share with your audience here, Ken, because I think this is a real paradox that's going to blow some people away. What is it? So we know that mortgage interest rates have been up so much lately. And you know what happens with rising mortgage rates, right? When mortgage rates rise, home prices. You thought I was going to say fall, didn't you know? When mortgage rates rise, expect home prices to rise. And you might say what? That turns my whole world upside down. I mean, wouldn't one know that when mortgage rates rise.


Speaker 1 (00:35:38) - Well, that to. Creases affordability so one would afford less in prices would need to come down. And you know, the lens I like to look through a lot of times. Can we talk about applying economics to real estate? It's what I call history over hunches. I think it's really easy to have a hunch that when mortgage rates rise, well, obviously prices would have to come down due to impeded affordability. So maybe you're still wondering, well, what kind of upside down world would that happen? It's the world that you've been living in these past two years. What happened in 2021 and 2022? Home prices rose at a torrid pace, about 20% in 2021 and the following year last year, another 10% way beyond historic norms. And what happened with interest rates during that same time, they got doubled. I mean, they climbed a cliff. So that actually usually happens that when rates rise, prices rise. In fact, in the history over hunches, vane Winston Churchill is the one that said, the further you look into the past, the further you can see into the future.


Speaker 1 (00:36:44) - So let's open this up and look at the past, talk about why this happens, and then think about some lessons that you can learn from it. So in about the last 30 years, since 1994, mortgage rates have increased substantially nine times. That's defined as a mortgage rate increase of 1% or more. And during those nine times that mortgage rates rose, home prices rose seven of those nine times. This typically happens. And, you know, when I share this with real estate, people can a lot of them are blown away. They don't understand how they really don't even believe it. And I shared the data with you right before I came down here. You have the studio and maybe you can even put that chart up there to show people that I.


Speaker 3 (00:37:25) - Will do that.


Speaker 1 (00:37:25) - Jerry Yeah, but you know what? When I talk with doctors of economics, like the ones that I interview on my show, some of them aren't aware of it, but they all say, Oh yeah, I can believe it.


Speaker 1 (00:37:33) - I can understand how that would happen. All right. So what's going on here? Why does this happen? Why wouldn't mortgage rates rise? Would home prices rise? And, you know, there are for a couple of reasons. You know, can you and Donnell talk so eloquently about lag effects in the economy? Yeah, So that's one reason. But this can't completely be explained by lag effects because we have to think about what makes a person buy a home. Okay. We'll come back to that in a moment. But let's think about what happens when rates rise. Okay. Generally, the Fed is saying that the economy's hot, people are employed right now. There are some high profile tech layoffs for sure, but there are still more open job positions than there even are people to fill them. And this makes inflationary pressures heat up. So that's why they raise rates. When everyone has a job and you have an option if you get laid off to go to a second job and employers are competing for employees, what happens? You feel pretty secure in your job and what do you do when you feel secure in your job? You're likely to buy a home.


Speaker 1 (00:38:37) - So your situation, your income, your job security is an even more important factor than what mortgage rates are. So this is why, completely counter-intuitively and paradoxically, when mortgage rates rise, expect home prices to rise as well. And in fact, can. The only two times in the last nine that rates rose, that prices didn't rise as well. You know, they were they were 2007 and 2008 when there are really wacky aberrations going on in the market leading up to the global financial crisis. So, again, when rates rise, prices typically do two completely opposite of what most think.


Speaker 3 (00:39:12) - Yeah. And don't forget that part of the reason rates rise is because of the scarcity. So when you go from 1.4 million to 600,000, yeah, you have less just basic demand and supply. Less supply.


Speaker 1 (00:39:27) - That's right. And I think importantly, one needs to remember that there's less supply of both homes to buy and homes to rent. And even when one does want to buy and they continue to get shut out of the market with higher rates and higher prices than that obviously puts more people back in the renter pool, which is pretty good for guys like you.


Speaker 1 (00:39:45) - And I can know a lot of income priced right?


Speaker 3 (00:39:47) - That's why I did that video Renter Nation because it's not good by the way this you know housing is supposed to be balanced. So as somebody who owns a lot of rentals, we lose people. We lose people to single family home buying. That is the way it's supposed to be. Right? And then there are some people that when they're when they're done with the single family side, they want to come to rentals for convenience, for flexibility, for all kinds of things. So it's a natural stop. And so when one's out of whack or the other is out of whack, it's not necessarily good.


Speaker 1 (00:40:21) - No, it's not good. I mean, that impedes the upward mobility in really part of the American dream. Of course, you never want to lose a tenant from one of your apartments, but at least you can say, hey, congratulations, you moved up a rung or whatever. So this is the cost of any entry level. Housing is really high.


Speaker 1 (00:40:40) - In fact, when you parse the amount of available homes by the entry level type of, say, single family homes and duplexes, which tend to be the ones that make the best rentals, yeah, they're even more scarce.


Speaker 3 (00:40:51) - It's it's gotten worse. You know, I don't know that as a builder as you know, we built we can build entry level you know the.


Speaker 1 (00:41:00) - Most can't make it feasible.


Speaker 3 (00:41:01) - Cost the cost to build a house today is expensive.


Speaker 1 (00:41:05) - Yeah it really is. And you know, if you are looking to be a real estate investor in the 1 to 4 unit space, which is really an area where I specialize, if you can find a builder that builds entry level homes, I do know of a number of them in the Midwest and South, this could be a time for you to get a new build rental property more so than a renovated one. You know, that's really opposite of ten years ago. Ten years ago, we were still coming off the global financial crisis. Crazy.


Speaker 1 (00:41:32) - That was when the cost of property was even less than the replacement cost no one was going to build. Now you do have people building and, you know, can I know a number of these builders because mortgage rates are higher, that they're helping the investor, the individual investor down there. People like me, yeah, they're buying down the rates. So it's quite common for, oh, say on a $350,000 property for the builder to give you 2% of that 350 K purchase price. What is that, $7,000 at the closing table for you to buy down your mortgage rate? You also have turnkey newbuild companies that are giving 1 to 2 years of free property management. So new build typically costs more than renovated, which is why in the past a lot of investors like to buy a renovated property. But with the new builds and incentives like that and the fact that you're probably going to have lower insurance rates with new builds versus renovated, I think this really tilts toward you as the investors looking at property to your portfolio.


Speaker 1 (00:42:28) - It makes more sense now to look at new build than it has at any time in the recent past.


Speaker 3 (00:42:33) - Yeah, I know that like when we look at those big projects for for acquisition, you know, we're looking at what is it, what is the cost per unit for, let's say an acquisition in Phoenix versus building one? And in the last three years it was building all day long because the cost was 100,000 more per unit to buy crazy, crazy how existing product can get pushed up that high. And so all of a sudden that makes the building more affordable. Yeah, actually. And when you when you build the one next to the other, people are going to want the newer product all day long.


Speaker 1 (00:43:12) - Ken And maybe I can ask you a little something about being a builder. You know, I have learned from some builders that in a way some things are nice because they're not getting as much competition from resales on the market. We talked about why there aren't resales on the market. People want to hold on to their low mortgage rates so builders don't have the competition that way.


Speaker 1 (00:43:31) - But maybe you could let me know. Of course, it's going to vary by region and we've been talking very much nationally so far in the conversation here. But really, what's the lowest price point where it's still feasible as a builder to build where you have enough margin? Like what's the lowest price point on maybe a single family home? And then a larger. Yeah.


Speaker 3 (00:43:49) - So for me, it's mostly just apartments. So, you know, we'll go into a market. I'll give you a great example. We can buy in Austin, Texas, mid-nineties product, vaulted ceilings, nine foot ceilings, beautiful garages for $180,000 a door. Really nice. There's no way we can build that there for that price. Not even close. However, you take that exact project and you move it to Phoenix, it's 350 now. The rents are different, the expenses are different, the insurance is different, the property taxes are different. I understand the math. Is that the same? But, but on a per foot basis and a per unit basis, that's how different it is.


Speaker 3 (00:44:33) - So because of that, we're building in Arizona and buying in Texas. So now that can change. And also, you know that Austin could get really hot, those prices can go up and then we know that then it would change that dynamic. And so to your point, you always have to take a look at the difference between the deliverable. You know, do you buy The one thing I do like about buying is that it's immediate. You know, you could step into something immediate, make change immediate, whereas there's a bigger lag with the construction. So you do have some interest rate risk because you can't get a fixed rate loan on something that doesn't exist. It's land, it's air, and then it's built until it's in service, they call it. Then you can put fixed debt on it, but that's it. Up to that point, you're subject to a little bit of the whim of the fluctuations of the Fed and all the other things that that determine interest rates. So so you do have those things.


Speaker 3 (00:45:36) - We do love the new property. And so do our tenets. So when you build something new, people want to be there and they move out of that ten year or 15 year old product into something new. So there is that, plus you get a little bit more rent and, you know, all of those things. So there's positives and negatives for both.


Speaker 1 (00:45:55) - And so it's really, I'd say in the last ten years when you've seen the advent and proliferation of these build to rent companies, they're turnkey companies that build a finished product for you. That's the first thing that they do. And then the second thing they do is they place a tenant in it for you. And then thirdly, they hold it under management for you, the investor, if you so choose. Basically, it's those three things that define what a turnkey rental property is. So it's making more and more sense to do that with new build properties.


Speaker 3 (00:46:28) - Yeah, it certainly can and it's market by market. But you're right, you have to look at it each and every time.


Speaker 3 (00:46:34) - So before we wrap up, I'd like to talk about, you know, you always say invest in what's scarce, which I completely agree with. You know, And the other thing I like to say is invest the things that you can't print. So, you know, you could print dollars. You know, you can you can create a stock or ETF out of gold and all kinds of things, but you can't print gold, you can't print oil, you can't print trees. You can't print real estate. So let's talk about what's invest in what's scarce. So what do you mean by that?


Speaker 1 (00:47:05) - Oh, I love that. And we're so aligned on that. If I have any one investing theme, it comes down to one word scarcity. Yeah, I like to invest in what's scarce, not what's abundant and can be printed. You know, you don't even have to print anymore. It's just a few keystrokes and things like dollars and additional stock shares, abundant things, they can just be conjured into existence.


Speaker 1 (00:47:27) - So I avoid what's abundant like dollars in stocks and I focus on investing in what's scarce and is difficult to produce more of and take, yeah, real world resources to produce which is for me, it's real estate, gold and bitcoin that rounds out my scarcity theme. Why Real estate? It's a wealth builder really. Gold and bitcoin are not proven wealth builders. I think gold and bitcoin are maybe good places to move some capital once you've built it. Gold and bitcoin can be good stores of value gold really the classic store of value and bitcoin the real risk. But you know real world resources to produce. They're all scarce. Like we talked about the low supply of real estate. It has utility meaning usefulness. And yeah, when you buy a piece of real estate, a lot of people don't think about it this way, but break down all the commodities that you're buying when you buy a piece of real estate from drywall to gypsum, the copper wire to glass and all those sorts of things, it takes real world resources to produce that real estate.


Speaker 1 (00:48:27) - Real estate gives you advantages that gold and bitcoin don't like a reliable income stream and the ability to use leverage and terrific tax advantages. So that's why I'm a real estate guy. That scares gold, has a scarcity. What's really special about gold is it's one of the few things that's had enduring value for millennia, about 5000 years. You can say that about exceedingly few things. I guess you could make jokes about. It's intrinsic value. It's really not used that much industrially, but people have always flocked and gravitated toward that during times of uncertainty. And there's low supply inflation on gold that is very difficult to mine 2% more gold than it was the previous year. There were just challenges from exploration to mining and creating much more of this gold. And then thirdly, Bitcoin. You might not be that familiar with Bitcoin, but it takes real world resources, hardware, software and electricity to bring more Bitcoin into existence. There will never be more than 21 million bitcoins, so it has a fixed supply. You can't quite even say that about real estate and gold.


Speaker 1 (00:49:37) - A hard cap of fixed supply. More than 19 million bitcoin have already been mined. It's truly scarce and Bitcoin does have a role. It has some downfalls too, in case the government cracks down on it. I think that's the big risk with Bitcoin. But gold and dollars each have their downfall is difficult to transport gold across space due to its weight in its volume and security problems and then dollars. You can't transmit dollars across time due to inflation. Bitcoin is that one store of value. It's still volatile, it's still got some problems there, but it's the one store of value that you can transport across both space and time. You can't say that about dollars or gold. I'm a real estate guy. Real estate, you know, I think of it Ken is real estate is old and slow and analog and Bitcoin is young and fast and digital, so it is kind of a counterpoint. To the real estate with the Bitcoin. But yeah, if you need to build wealth and you don't have it yet, it's really difficult to invest in an asset class outside of real estate.


Speaker 1 (00:50:47) - Wealthy people's money either starts out in real estate or it ends up in real estate.


Speaker 3 (00:50:52) - Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I personally, I'm a big gold guy. I, I love being able to just throw a couple coins in my pocket and fly to wherever I want and pull them out and they're like, I got 4 or 5 grand.


Speaker 1 (00:51:04) - It's something tangible. You could actually look at it.


Speaker 3 (00:51:06) - It's nice. It's kind of nice to have that, you know, I don't particularly look at it as an investment, right? I look at it more as a hedge, an insurance policy, maybe a hedge against the dollar.


Speaker 1 (00:51:17) - Yeah, it's sort of like money insurance. I agree. And really a lot like an insurance policy. You hope you never have to use it, just like you hope you would never have to sell your goal. It's good money insurance. It's not a wealth builder. In my experience. It really just generally tracks inflation over time.


Speaker 3 (00:51:35) - Which is a good thing, by the way, especially now.


Speaker 3 (00:51:38) - I think what's interesting is have you had a chance to look at how much gold the central banks have been buying? I really have. So this is a really interesting point before we wrap up. So as you guys might know, central banks are in charge of printing money, basically. Well, other things, but one of those, that's one of them. So and they're kind of upset at the US dollar right now. Yeah. Because, you know, the world trades in US dollars and they're sitting on US dollars. And as we inflate and print US dollars, it looks like that a lot of them are buying gold, Right. And I would if, if they're they're trying to store their value in something that dollars so something other than dollars. I read an article the other day that said that we've been weaponizing the dollar against the rest of the world. Right.


Speaker 1 (00:52:28) - Right. So many foreign central banks, China, Russia and many more, they've really been loading up on gold these past few years.


Speaker 1 (00:52:36) - You see more and more international trade agreements, like you alluded to, cutting out the dollar and going through the yuan. You had the war in Ukraine, all these things increased geopolitical uncertainty. And that's why gold was on a tear and went over $2,000 recently.


Speaker 3 (00:52:49) - And then BRICs, BRICs is showing up. You know, that's the Brazil, Russia, India, China and South America. Right. And South Africa. Right. And I think there's a 30, 40 countries now. I've joined something like that.


Speaker 1 (00:53:04) - Yep. There's more and more. And they're not they're not pals of the United States.


Speaker 3 (00:53:07) - No, no. I don't know if you guys are watching this stuff, but it's something you have to watch. I mean, because your hard earned, your hard earned money is yours. And so you have to be a steward of it. You have to look at this stuff. It's not conspiracy theory stuff. You need to go out and Google this stuff and you'll see it's the dollar doomed. I don't know the answer, but I do know that you have to keep your eye on all this stuff.


Speaker 3 (00:53:30) - Right.


Speaker 1 (00:53:31) - Well, I'm glad you bring this up because one can speculate, one can make projections. But one of the few things that we do know and this is central to every investment that you make is that the dollar is going to continue to be debased. At what rate? We just don't know. But there are a few guarantees in life, but that's one thing that's virtually guaranteed. And really everything that we're talking about here hedges you against that. Again, dollars in stocks can easily be printed. Want to stay out of those sorts of checks?


Speaker 3 (00:53:59) - And if you could fix your rate while the government debases your dollar, you're winning.


Speaker 1 (00:54:05) - That's a winning formula for every million dollars in debt you have with just 5% inflation, you know the bank back 950 K after one year because wages and prices and everything, salaries are all higher. And with real estate, it's wow, your tenant pays all the interest for you while you're enjoying that debasement benefit. It's definitely counterintuitive. Get more debt. That's one of my favorite four letter words.


Speaker 3 (00:54:31) - Ha ha ha. Well, good. Keith, this has been awesome. So what's the best way people can reach you? I know I listen to your stuff, but I'm not sure everyone knows the.


Speaker 1 (00:54:40) - Get Rich Education podcast and get rich education YouTube channel. Real estate pays you five ways at the same time. Just regular buy and hold real estate. And it's actually okay that we didn't get into that because I made a free course with five videos, one on each of the five ways, just regular everyday buy and hold real estate pays and we're giving that away free right now at Get Rich education slash course. So it's a gift certificate and podcast and YouTube channel and again that free course real estate pays five ways which really reinforces why real estate is that generational wealth builder is a get rich education slash course. Awesome.


Speaker 3 (00:55:21) - All right, buddy, always great to see you.


Speaker 1 (00:55:23) - Love catching up, kids. Yeah. I hope that you enjoyed that vibrant conversation and a lot of original thoughts between Ken and I there.


Speaker 1 (00:55:36) - Ken is one of the more giving guys in the real estate industry. I like to hang around with the givers and reciprocate myself. One thing that I cannot take credit for as original is my part of the discussion where I was speaking about how the property is only the fourth most important thing in real estate investing. I learned at least some version of that from the real estate guys Robert Helms and Russell Gray. Now, when it comes to the prospect of a housing price crash, I think that a lot of the gloom and doom was that were completely wrong about that. Since 2020, you know, a lot of them have just dissipated or have gone away. Economic uncertainty that could not make home prices fall in any meaningful way like we've experienced the last three plus years and then last year a doubling of interest rates. Well, that couldn't really touch home prices either. Looking into the future, the rest of this year and into next year, I've got a good eight or so reasons here that home prices won't crash, although there could always be a black swan event, I suppose, from a pandemic to a direct hit by a meteor into the center of the United States.


Speaker 1 (00:56:46) - You are listening to someone that successfully invested through two recessions here. Home prices won't crash anytime soon because there aren't currently enough homes to house Americans. There are billions of dollars sitting on the sidelines right now just waiting for people to jump into the market. Lending guidelines have been strict for a decade plus, and that means those that own homes now can afford to make the payments. Home equity is also near record levels, so those that do have trouble making their payments, they wouldn't have to make a highly distressed fire sale. The government will do everything that they can to stop foreclosures, and on average, it takes 900 days to complete one. The population keeps increasing, although slowly US housing is still some of the most affordable in the world. And what higher interest rates do is that they also slow homebuilding. They slow that rate of new supply. This is all why housing prices cannot crash any time soon. We've got a fantastic show coming up here next week for you. If you're newer to this show or you just haven't seen my free real estate pays five Ways video course yet.


Speaker 1 (00:58:00) - Like I was telling Ken's audience about there, this is fundamental to you building the kind of life that you've always wanted for yourself. The course is truly free. I don't try to upsell you from that to some paid course. Perhaps the best thing that you can do for your financial future is to watch and understand all of the ways that you are paid. You can do that now at Get Rich Education slash course Happy independence Day. I'm Keith Winfield. Don't quit it.


Speaker 4 (00:58:35) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 1 (00:59:03) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building get rich education. Com.



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Storing your money at a bank entails more risk than you think. Your deposit is a bank’s liability. Banks must take risks with your money because they don’t charge you fees.

Banks used to have a 10:1 reserve ratio. As of March 2020, all reserve requirements are now eliminated.

Rather than storing lots of money at the bank, borrow lots of money from the bank.

US households own $41T of owner-occupied property—$29T in equity, $12T in debt. The national LTV ratio is 30%, historically low. That’s 70% equity.

Of the five ways real estate pays: one profit source is the market, two are from the tenant’s job, and two come from the government.

Many Millennials plan to rent forever. 63% have nothing saved for a down payment.

The interest-rate lock in effect keeps constraining the available supply of homes.

This forces more homebuilders to build.

Last week, NBC Nightly News covered the rise of build-to-rent communities.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:


Welcome to GRE! I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. Do you have any idea what banks do with your money? How home equity is like a bank, hot Millennial rental trends, and the proliferation of Build To Rent real estate, today on Get Rich Education!



Welcome to GRE! From Glens Falls, NY to Klamath Falls, OR and across 188 nations worldwide, the voice of real estate investing since 2014. You’re listening to Get Rich Education. I’m your host, Keith Weinhold.


You did not wake up to be mediocre today. So we don’t focus on long-term budgeting here. 


Correlating financial betterment chiefly with reducing your expenses is just a race to the bottom. You and your peers would just be racing to the bottom.


We know that, instead, yes, arbitrage is created when you  borrow low and invest high. But the ultimate arbitrage - which is the gap or that spread, is when your quality of life vastly exceeds your cost of living. 


That’s that gap that you & I pry open ever wider together right here, every week. 


Savers lose wealth.

Stock investors maintain wealth.

REIs build wealth.


Savers lose wealth because inflation makes holding onto a dollar like a block of ice melting in your hand. 


Retail stock investors only MAINTAIN wealth because their 9 to 10% long-term return is worn down to less than nothing with inflation, emotion, taxes, fees, and volatility.


And real estate investors BUILD real, durable wealth.  


If you have a mentality of trading time for dollars, then you  have a certain way of looking at your life. 


If you realize that your investing mission in your life is to build things that pay you to own them, then you have a different way of looking at life. 


The resources that you need to build those things are what we cultivate here on this show. 


You know something though, by the time that I bought my first rental property, I didn’t have all of that figured out yet. 


It really wasn’t until I bought my second property. It was also a fourplex, just like the first one. This second one cost $530,000. And check out how I bought it. 


I bought it with a 10% down payment, interest-only loan, and interest rate of 7⅝%. 


Yep, I took accumulated equity from my first four-plex and used it as a down payment on the second four plex.


Now, that way, I essentially had zero money in the deal - which is an infinite return strategy - and both fourplexes cashflowed.


Now, the interest-only loan on my second fourplex there… that gives some people pause.


Why would I do that?


That kept my monthly payment amount down - since I could pay only interest - and didn’t have to pay principal. That turned a property with a small cash flow into a nice cash flow.


Yeah, some people don’t like interest-onlys because then the tenant isn’t paying down your principal for you. 


I typically take interest-only loans because for every dollar that doesn’t go into your illiquid principal as equity, instead, it becomes a dollar of liquid cash flow that goes into your pocket.


In fact, changes are that the reason that you have fat equity in home right now is from market appreciation, not principal paydown.


In fact, why don’t I approach the classic GRE principle of “your return from home equity is always zero” from a new and novel angle here today. 


Gosh, this could make you hundreds of thousands or millions over your investor career.


Imagine a bank. We’ll call it a red bank. This bank is offering you zero rate of return, it’s difficult for you to withdraw your money from it, and this red bank might not even let you withdraw your own money at all - it is at their discretion. 


How motivated are you to hold your money at that bank? Well, you aren’t at all. 


Well, I just described equity that’s locked inside properties… and that’s why… your properties make terrible banks.


Equity is the opposite of you being liquid.


Instead, the GRE Way is leverage and arbitrage, but it needs to be supported by cash flow. 


So, we are not quite on an island here with our strategy, because we’re still connected with the mainstream finance world - but we’re, say, a peninsula then. 


And, like a peninsula, maybe, real estate keeps you insulated - though not completely disconnected from that more volatile stock and bond shuffle that most people are on - which provides little to zero leverage or cash flow. 


Do you know what that stock and bond shuffle is - that seesaw?


Let’s remind ourselves… that when money flees the stock market, it usually ends up in bonds. As demand for bonds goes UP, interest rates go DOWN.

Then, as interest rates go down, investors go back to stocks in pursuit of yield, and everything reverses. It’s an ebb and flow of funds which often provides you with zero real return. That’s how that seesaw goes.

So rather than get a part-time job, which is selling your time for dollars, get a few rental properties instead. 


Whether you manage them yourself or you manage the manager - like I do, I manage managers… you’ve got the income stream of a part-time job with an asset that appreciates at the same time.


As time passes, the reason that you will feel satisfied is because you took strategic risk.


Now, to stick to the bank analogy theme here, a lot of people still don’t realize that when you take your money to the bank, you are a creditor of the bank, and the bank is now lending your money out.


So, just think about what you’re doing - well, you yourself probably aren’t doing so much of this - you’re probably a better than average investor since you’re listening here.


But think about those depositors that keep a lot of money at the bank.


Yes, we know you’re losing to inflation, but besides that, just think about what happens to your money this way.


What about a parking garage and your car? OK, when you park your car at a valet, the valet is supposed to turn around and park it in a garage.


The valet does not have the right to take your car and let an Uber driver go make money with it while you’re off having dinner.


And then maybe they’ll give you the same make & model back at the end of the night… and they stick YOU with the risk of having a problem with your car - or your money. 


That’s what banks are doing with your money when you park it there. It’s like a valet letting an Uber driver use it and take risks with it without your knowledge.


What isn’t FDIC-insured is… at… risk.


Well, what’s the alternative to banks lending out the money that you deposited with them? Well, the alternative to the existing system is that banks, instead, could make money off of fees that they charge you.


How is it that you avoid paying fees to your bank right now, like you are? I mean, afterall, banks have capital expenses, technology expenses, and employee expenses.


If banks charge fees to you rather than profiting from the spread that they get on lending your money out, we could have a safer system.


But most people like the allure of fee-free banking, partly because that’s what they’re used to.


Banks used to have to hold onto a dollar for every $10 they had in deposits. That’s also known as a 10:1 fractional reserve ratio. 


Well, the risks of parking your money at a bank went up in March of 2020. That’s when the Fed just COMPLETELY eliminated reserve ratios for banks. 


Now, for every $10 they have in deposits, banks can hold zero dollars in reserve. 


Instead of parking your money at a bank, you do the opposite. You borrow from the bank, pay them their 7% interest and invest it in “Real Estate Pays Five Ways” property that beats 7%. Right there’s… your arbitrage.


Now you’re using their money instead of them using your money - like the valet that you entrusted your car with that lent out your car to the Uber driver while you were at dinner. 


So outside of inflation, why is it risky to keep your money parked AT a bank - rather than borrowing from them. Because, as has often happened this year, banks implode.  


Why are they imploding?


Well, just a couple years ago, when banks lent on mortgages at 3%, they’re only collecting 3% for 30 years. 


What happens to the BANK when interest rates go up? No one wants to buy their 3% debt. The depositor (that’s you, the customer) wants their money back - because they can go invest it for 5% elsewhere. That’s a problem for the bank.


And if the government does come in to give a bailout of your bank - we know by now that they’re more likely to do it if it’s a large bank, like Chase, Wells Fargo, or B of A.


Well, more gov’t bailouts of banks… means more money printing… which means more inflation, making our eventual problems even worse.


So rather than keeping too much money at the bank, BEAT the bank.


Now, earlier, I mentioned how having a glut of equity in your properties is like keeping your money in a rather illiquid bank. 


That is a germane point - a pertinent discussion to have right now, because take a look at this. This is America’s equity position, right now.


This is for the latest quarter ended. The Federal Reserve Flow of Funds report tells us that 


U.S. households owned $41 trillion in owner-occupied real estate. Alright, $41T is the value of that US residential property.


Of that $41T, how much do you think is in debt, and how much is in equity? I’m just doing some rounding here.


$12 trillion in debt and the remaining $29 trillion is in equity.


Therefore, the national loan-to-value "LTV" right now is about 30%. That is historically quite low.


Another way to say it is that America’s primary residences have a 70% equity position today. 


Yes, 70% of the value of American homes is locked into that vehicle that’s famously unsafe, illiquid, and always has an ROI of zero. 


Homeowners today have an average of $302,000 of equity in their homes. 


Now, as inefficient as that might sound from an opportunity cost perspective from homeowners.


There is, at least, a little upside to your neighbors having a glut of equity even if you try to opportunistically hold a low equity position.


This equity provides a cushion to withstand potential price declines, but also prevents any future housing distress from turning into a foreclosure situation. 


Those equity cushions around American neighborhoods help prevent the down… drain in prices that we saw from 2007 to 2009.


I’ve got more for you coming shortly, including, has the Build-To-Rent concept that we’ve discussed on this show for years & years finally gone mainstream now that NBC news is discussing it?


You’ll hear that audio clip and get my commentary on it.


But first, I want to ask you, is this the "Golden Age" of quality NEWSLETTERS or what? 


News WEBSITES are increasingly riddled with: paywalls, logins, banner ads, and pop-ups about cookies, the hassle of 2FA. Instead, a quality newsletter is just automatically “there” in your inbox. 


Our valuable Don’t Quit Your Daydream newsletter is full of real estate investing industry trends and forecasts, broader economic forces that are going to affect you in the future & more. 


Get top investment property news in under 5 minutes. 

You can sign up and get the letter free now at


In there, you get updates about what provider has inventory now - even exact physical addresses of properties. 


In fact, I’ve featured two of my own rental properties in the newsletter as I broke down their financials. Again, sign up at


I STILL write every single word of that letter myself. I don’t think that a lot of founders do that.


Upon signup, you’ll receive some lay of the land e-mails, and thereafter, I only send it about weekly. Not daily.


Alternatively, you can easily sign up for the letter by text. If you aren’t yet one of many subscribers expanding your means with my letter, you can simply text “GRE” to 66866 for our DQYD Letter. It is free.


Again, you can sign up by simply texting “GRE” to 66866. More next. I’m Keith Weinhold. You’re listening to Get Rich Education.



Welcome back. You’re listening to Episode 455 of Get Rich Education. I’m your host, Keith Weinhold.


Five weeks ago on the show, you’ll remember that I reiterated why real estate does not pay 4 ways and does not pay 6 ways - it pays exactly five ways simultaneously.


Sometimes, amid uncertainty - and note that there’s ALWAYS - uncertainty.


It never abates. People wondered when the Fed would stop hiking rates at a meeting. Now they did. People wondered when inflation would get down to 4 - now it has. 


But those that worry excessively will still point to something else that’s uncertain.


But in good times, bad times, and uncertain investing times, you might want to get more offensive. Other times, more defensive.


Real estate is both. Of the 5 ways you’re paid, appreciation and cash flow serve your offensive side.


At the same time, your return on Amortization, Tax Benefits, and Inflation-Profiting all serve your defensive side.


Now, let’s go and look at the sources - the headwaters - the genesis. 


What are your 5 profit sources - for appreciation - it’s the market. It’s the vibrancy and diversity of the economic market that you bought in. That’s where your appreciation emanates from.


For the second way you’re paid, cash flow, it’s your tenant and your tenant’s job.


For the third way, your Return on Amortization - that ROA, that also comes from your tenant, since that pays your loan’s Principal & Interest.


The fourth way, tax benefits, that’s the gov’t.


And the fifth way, your inflation-profiting, that also comes from the gov’t. 


Yes, that’s the source, the headwaters for each of the five ways you're paid and knowing that can help you be mindful about what to pay attention to in your investment real estate portfolio long-term.


Yes, this is just with carefully-bought buy & hold real estate. Unlike most investments, if the value of your property goes down, you still get paid 4 ways. 


So to review the 5 Ways Real Estate Pays SOURCES - where your money actually originates, it’s:


Appreciation - from the market

Cash flow - from the tenant

ROA - tenant

Tax Benefits - gov’t

And Inflation-Profiting - also from the gov’t


Now, here at GRE, when we focus on your tenant and where your tenant comes from, you know, one word that comes up an awful lot is Millennials.


Why do we discuss Millennials so regularly? It’s not because we’re the first generation to embrace avocados or online dating over “in real life” dating or, it’s the first generation to be raised in a world of participation trophies. Ha! 


It’s because, not only are Millennials the largest generation in American history, but they are in their prime household formation years.


Though there’s a bit of dissension among demographers, many agree that Millennials were born between 1981 and 1996. That makes them Age 27 to 42 - they are prime household formation years. 


BTW, you probably know of the generation after that, Gen Z. They were born between 1997 and 2012, making Gen Z age 11 to 26.


But do you know about the generation after that? That is Generation Alpha. They were born between 2012 and today, making Generation Alpha age 0 to 11. 


Well, the Millennial homeownership rate lags that of previous generations of people that were the same age. So this is why you have such a deep pool of people that’s driving demand for your rentals.


Millennials have the misfortune of being stung by back-to-back global crises. 


When they were coming of age in 2008, many couldn’t get a job during the Global Financial Crisis. Then the pandemic disruption made getting their independence pretty bumpy.


In fact, fully 18% of Millennials say that they plan to rent forever. Forever! That’s up from 11% just five years ago. 


Not just a few, but the MAJORITY of Millennial Renters have zero down payment for house savings. 63% of them have absolutely nothing saved for a house. 


And in fact, another 14% have less than $5,000 saved - which is close to nothing. That is all according to a survey from Apartment List. 


More Millennials plan to rent forever. 


Now, I’ve done a fair bit of research on Generation Z  real estate trends - again they’re the age between 11 and 26. And there are a few more Gen Z homeowners than you might think already. 


But the short story on Gen Z, just isn’t that compelling. To distill everything I’ve researched, most Gen Zers want to own a home but few can afford it. Well, no kidding. That’s not a very novel takeaway, but that’s the REAL story there.


If Millennials are your current renters, then Gen Z are your current and future renters.


Now, I’ve talked to you a good bit about the “interest rate lock-in” effect. So many homeowners have ultra-low mortgage rates that they don’t want to sell their home, and when they don’t put it on the market, that further constrains supply.


Well, Redfin recently brought some new color to the interest-rate lock-in effect. They’ve shared some really interesting material with us.


92% of mortgage borrowers have an interest rate under 6%.


80% of them have an interest rate below 5%.


62% of these people have an interest rate below 4%.


And a quarter have a rate below 3%.


New listings of homes for sale and the total number of listings have both dropped to their lowest level on record for this time of year… and that is fueling homebuyer competition in some markets and preventing home prices from falling. 


In fact, Redfin tells us that the national ASKING price for homes is the same that it was one year ago.


Sale prices increased most in these 5 metro areas.

Cincinnati leading the way at (9.2%). We’ve got cash-flowing Cincinnati property at GRE Marketplace. Miami (8%) not really a cash flow market there. Third-best is Milwaukee (8%), rounded out by Fort Lauderdale, FL (6%) and Virginia Beach, VA (5%). 

They are the 5 metros with the highest appreciation.

Current months of national housing supply is still just 2.6 months - scarce inventory. 6 months is a balance market.


Homes that sold were on the market for a median of 28 days. That is the shortest span since September. There’s a bit of a seasonal factor there though.


Now, when we talk about the paltry supply of homes since existing homeowners don’t want to lose their low rate, it’s forced more homebuilders to build - in order to make some inventory available.


It’s made a good opportunity for you to buy these homes that are built for renters from Day 1, and rent it to a tenant yourself. 


Now, I know that your life is more interesting than watching the NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt and then dozing off to sleep at 9:30 PM (ha!), so in case you didn’t catch it, here it is on “Build-To-Rent” last week.


It really takes the perspective of the RENTER and why they want to pay your rent to stay in a Build-To-Rent home… longer than they do for an apartment. This is about 2 minutes long & I’ll be back to comment.


BTR on NBC News:


Yes, that’s the popularity of build-to-rent homes. Something that we’ve been discussing here at GRE, for, gosh, maybe 8 years now.


Like they said there, rents are on the rise. But they’re not rising nearly as fast as they were 1 and 2 years ago. Rent growth has slowed for both SFHs and apartments.


I think that the assurance for prospective income property owners like you is that in your Build-To-Rent properties, you can have a reasonable expectation of high occupancy and low vacancy as long as you buy your SFRs in a decent market.


And see, more often than not, a builder is only going to build new, rental single-family homes if there are plentiful jobs nearby to support that.


So you can kind of crowdsource the due diligence that the builder did on what’s demographically and economically feasible if you choose to add these property types.


Despite the build-to-rent properties added, today, America only has half as many homes available as 2019.


Compared to just a year ago, there are 5% fewer available properties today. 


But, we’ve got available Build-To-Rent and existing income property here at GRE Marketplace. Yes, just create one login, one time, and get access to all national providers at GRE


But say you want a little help, a little coaching. Say perhaps you haven’t bought property before, or you haven’t bought one in a while, or you haven’t bought property across state lines yet - since that’s where the best deals usually are - or you just want to lean on a coach to bounce ideas off of as you’re looking for your next investment property.


Well, in that case, you can rely on our free coaching service. That’s at


Our coaches don't blow the whistle at you for missing a play. You'll never find them as grumpy as, say, New England Patriots' Coach Bill Belichick. They’re not that kind of coach. It’s not the kind of coach that will ask you to start your morning with an ice bath.


And if you're new to real estate, there's no such thing as a stupid question with GRE Investment Coaches. No penalty flags are thrown.


To find that property that builds your residual income and pays you five ways, you can choose which coach you want to have help you.  


Coaching is a completely free service to you.


What they do is...

  • Learn your goals

  • Find you the best off-market deals nationwide

  • Find the property provider with incentives. (One provider recently offered 4.75% interest rates, another free PM for one year.)

  • Help write your offer if you would like that

  • Submit earnest money

  • Navigate the inspection

  • Interpret your appraisal

  • Check your management agreement

  • And just ensure a smooth closing day for you

Your Investment Coach can do more than this. If you prefer, they can do less than this.


GRE Marketplace is where the coaches source the properties. It is more like an organic farmers' market than a big box store. Property offerings change frequently.


Because there are limited slots available to talk with them through phone or Zoom, it helps if you've got your down payment and are ready to go.


Sheesh. If it were any easier, they'd even make your down payment for you.


Did I mention that it's completely free? To get started, choose your coach and book a time. Start at


Until next week, I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. DQYD!

Direct download: GREepisode455_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

The wealth of families often dissipates to zero within a generation or two. 

Learn about the Vanderbilt family’s downfall and how you can avoid these mistakes.

Have an estate plan. I explain the difference between a will and a trust.

I introduce you to my friend Michael Manthei. 

A regular GRE listener, Michael and his wife bought 55 units within 4 years and acquired $85,000 of annual real estate income.

He thinks about generational wealth as: income, taxes and inflation, giving, faith, service, preserving stories, character, physical health, and that your family is a treasure.

Learn the difference between inheritance and generational wealth.

Today, Michael runs the Elevate Investing Group. His upcoming event, Generational Wealth 2023, is August 18th-19th, 2023 in Lancaster, PA. Register here.

I’ve never heard of an event like this. Multiple generations of one family will tell you how they did it.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Michael’s transformational event:

Generational Wealth 2023

Build a trust or will fast:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

Best Financial Education:

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text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

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Complete episode transcript:


Keith Weinhold (00:00:00) - Welcome to G R E. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. How do you build generational wealth? How do you keep it and how do you pass it on so that it stays within your family for generations? Part of this is today's conversation with A G R E listener that's doing something that I've never heard of anyone else doing today on Get Rich Education.


Speaker 0 (00:00:22) - Taxes are your biggest expense. The best way to reduce your burden is real estate. Increase your income with amazing returns and reduce your taxable income with real estate write-offs. As an employee with a high salary, you are devastated by taxes. Lighten your tax burden. With real estate incentives. You can offset your income from a W2 job and from capital gains Freedom. Family Investments is the experience partner you've been looking for. The Real Estate Insider Fund is that vehicle, this fund investing real estate projects that make an impact. And you can join with as little as $50,000. Insiders get preferred returns of 10 to 12%. This means you get paid first. Insiders enjoy Castle on a quarterly basis and the tax benefits are life changing. Join the Freedom Family and become a real estate insider. Start on your path to financial freedom through passive income. Text family to 66866. This is not a solicitation and is for accredited investors only. Please text family to 66866 for complete details.


Speaker 3 (00:01:31) - You are listening to the show that is created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.


Speaker 0 (00:01:54) - Welcome to GRE from Weehawkin, New Jersey to Weed, California and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Wein Holden. This is Get Rich Education. Shortly we will hear from a GRE listener that's an engaged real estate investor and is having an unusually large impact on other people with generational wealth. Soil has profound effects on the type of agriculture that's possible and therefore soil has had profound effects on the kinds of societies that have been historically possible going back 12,000 years since the advent of agriculture. So productive and irritable soil is what made real estate valuable. A pattern of farms that are passed down through this same family for generations. Well, that's something that's possible in fertile regions, but not in regions where the soil is exhausted in a few years and has to be abandoned. And a new site found while the first site recovers its fertility.


Speaker 0 (00:02:55) - Whole societies had to move when the land in any given location cannot permanently sustain them. Therefore, cities couldn't even be built or contemplated. So then when you have bad soil, you can't have anything that lasts. And if you can't plant your family's principles, call them seeds in fertile soil, which is my metaphor for having moral and cultural standards, well then you can't build generational wealth either. You won't have anything that lasts very far beyond your one finite life. And as society advanced, we have more historic examples about families that built and have still capped their fortune today after several generations like the Rockefellers or families that have built and squandered their fortune like the Vanderbilts. And how that started is that really the Vanderbilts have been heralded as American royalty. The icons of the Gilded Age and that rich history all started with Cornelius Vanderbilt, Cornelius.


Speaker 0 (00:04:09) - He's the one that started to amass the family fortune from railroads in shipping businesses in the late 18 hundreds. He became the wealthiest person in America in the 1860s and then he went to pass that title down to his son William Henry Vanderbilt. And then he became the wealthiest American during the 1870s and 1880s. But it began to fall apart with William. Yep, just one generation later. The second generation, one generation after the wealth builder Cornelius and then Gloria Vanderbilt was born. Her father had a gambling problem and squandered most of his fortune. There was also overspending on frequent international travel. So Gloria, the granddaughter of the one that started the Fortune Cornelius, she herself would go on to have four sons each from different marriages. One of her four sons is prominent in American society today, and it might surprise you when I reveal his identity shortly by the time of glory, Vanderbilt's passing, okay, her estate had dwindled from $200 million down to just one and a half million dollars.


Speaker 0 (00:05:25) - So from wealthy to almost middle class right there, her New York apartment was bestowed to one of her sons. Two of her other sons remained estranged and only one of her four sons inherited the majority of the estate. And that person is none other than the, I guess, somewhat esteemed broadcast journalist and author Anderson Cooper. So you can see in the Vanderbilt family how that fertile soil broke down culturally and became in fertile to build something that lasts. You need that fertile soil. There's more than just a cultural component to creating generational wealth. I mean, first of all, of course you need to build the wealth in the first place by listening to this show. You're either on your way there or you're already there. And that means they focus on things that most people don't do. It's places, frankly, a lot of people just don't even look or consider like getting lots of smart debt for leverage or being inflation aware, being tax savvy and owning assets that pay you while you hold onto them.


Speaker 0 (00:06:33) - There's also a legal component here. I am not a tax or legal advisor or professional. So just super briefly in one minute and in plain English you need to have an estate plan. Step one is have a will. That is like a letter that you write before you pass away. Really that's all a will is if you have possessions that you want to go to a certain place, even if you're only 20 years old or if you're 80 years old and you have say a car and a little money or pets, then have a will. You can write a rock solid will really cheaply start at a place like trust and Then after a will understand a revocable trust, that's a special account where you put your assets like money in real estate while you are still alive. And the key to the word revocable is that you can cancel or change it any time you want to.


Speaker 0 (00:07:34) - When you pass away, things go to your beneficiaries, your heirs, without the annoying probate process in court. Okay, that's a revocable trust. And why have a will versus a trust? Well, there are a few reasons, but if you have less than a million dollar net worth though, then that first step, the will, that's probably going to suffice for what you need. But if it's a million plus, then it's more likely the trust. So really there are two main trust types. I touched on the re revocable trust. Now the irrevocable trust, that's something you cannot change once you set it up. It is rigid, not flexible. Well then why would you set up an irrevocable trust if you can't change it? Well, it can protect you from taxes, lawsuits, and creditors in certain situations. So that is the quick one minute on basic estate planning wills and trusts, yes, there is far more to know like beneficiary designations and durable power of attorney.


Speaker 0 (00:08:37) - But look, here's the thing and the motivation for you devoting sometime to estate planning like that. If you die, you can be assured that your family won't squabble over dividing up your assets if you get that in place and you sure don't want that because they're already gonna be broken up about you passing away. You'll want your generational wealth to pass on in a planned way and also wills and trusts. That's the way that your family locates your assets in the first place. Today you'll see how our guests and his wife hit financial freedom when they had $85,000 worth of real estate income and note that that was seven years ago. So therefore on an inflation adjusted basis, that might be say 110 K or 120 K in today's dollars depending on what you think the rural rate of inflation is. And then you'll see how that got him thinking about generational wealth and what he's doing to help others with it.


Speaker 0 (00:09:40) - Like I said, he's doing something with it I've just never heard of before. But first, I hope that you've been enjoying our valuable, don't quit your Daydream letter where lately I sent you that great map that shows where the top job growth states are. That chart comparing your rent increases to your increase in operating expenses, that story about how Phoenix is going to have construction limits due to their declining water supply. And all those stories about how wacky California real estate has become, including State Farm recently halting new insurance policies in the state of California. If you aren't reading our letter, which has a dash of humor, I send it about weekly, then you are missing out. I'd love to have you read it. It is totally free. It's full of real estate investing industry trends and forecasts and broader economic forces that are gonna affect you in the future and more.


Speaker 0 (00:10:38) - And also whenever we have job openings here at G R E as we keep growing, they are announced in the letter as well. And now you can easily sign up for the letter by text. And if you aren't one of the many subscribers growing your means with my letter, you can simply text GRE to 66 8 66 for or don't quit your Daydream letter. Again, it's free and I rate every single word, all the letter myself. I don't think that many founders do that. This letter is written from me to you and you get top investment property news in just a five minute read. You'll get some valuable introductory emails and then after that it's only sent about once a week, not daily. And again, you can sign up by simply texting G r e 2 6 6 8 6 6 for the letter that's GRE 2 6 6 8 66 generational wealth straight ahead. You're listening to Get Rich Education with J W B Real Estate Capital. Jacksonville Real Estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor since 2013. JW B is ready to help your money make money, and to make it easy for everyday investors, get slash g rre. That's JWB real R E


Speaker 0 (00:12:14) - GRE listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 40 2056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plexes. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Chaley Ridge personally. They'll even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio.


Speaker 4 (00:12:49) - This is Hal Elrod, author of the Miracle Morning and listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold and don't quit your daydream.


Speaker 0 (00:13:05) - Hey, I would really like you to meet someone today. He and I met last year through our mutual friend Dave Zook and of all things last year we crawled through a cave in the middle of the woods in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania together and I mean Crawled. He is a real leader, he's a professional investor and founder of the Elevate Investing Group. Welcome to G R e Michael Manthei!


Speaker 5 - Michael Manthei (00:13:29) - Keith, thank you for having me been a longtime fan of you and the show and the worldwide impact you've had. So honored to be here


Speaker 0 (00:13:36) - In your bio, you haven't yet added that you're an amateur caver or spelunker as it is


Speaker 5 (00:13:42) - One attempt at S Splunking. I'm not sure if I can put it in the bio yet, but uh, maybe after a second round .


Speaker 0 (00:13:48) - Well Michael, you have done though what most everyone wants, which is actually not spelunking. You have achieved financial freedom in your early thirties and you're much older than that now. You've now got more than a decade of experience in syndications property management and you have over $200 million worth in real estate acquisition. So talk to us about how you obtained financial freedom after less than four years of investing.


Speaker 5 (00:14:17) - I feel like it could be, uh, you know, almost an infomercial with how it's gone. You know, I read Rich Dad Poor Dad and that completely changed my world growing up. I wasn't around wealthy people to know how they thought or what they did with their money or how they got there. So to get a glimpse through the book, rich Dad Poor Dadd changed my life and I set a similar goal as Robert had in the book of buying two properties a year. So after 10 years I figured I'd have 20 properties if everything went well, but could never have expected that. Yeah, like you said, within four years we bought 55 units, had enough passive income to retire. It went a lot faster than I thought, but incredibly grateful. We started with a single family house. I was completely broke when I got married.


Speaker 5 (00:15:08) - I was actually a missionary for seven years coming off the mission field, not a dollar to my name. Married my wife who had saved a lot of money for me at the time was $25,000 is what she came into our marriage with. And so I was broke. She had 25,000 and that's how we bought our first rental, which was interesting to work through that process with her, you know, using her life savings to buy the first rental when we were still rent a house. You know, she thought she'd save this for her first house and I said, Hey, how about instead of us buying a house for ourselves, let's buy a house for someone else and start this journey to financial freedom. From there we bought another single family house, then we bought a 10 unit property and with that 10 unit property I bought it cash with a hard money loan.


Speaker 5 (00:15:56) - When I went to the bank to go to permanent financing, it appraised for 150,000 more than we bought it for. And so we got all the money back plus a line of credit of $75,000 that then opened us to keep buying. But Keith, the real advantage of that deal was it unlocked my mind to say I don't have to be limited by my own capital. I had no money in that deal and I thought we were gonna be limited by our own capital the whole way, you know, save up 20% down payment. This deal happened in such a way that it kind of unlocked this infinite return concept. And so from there it was kind of off to the raises. Once the creativity was set free from that point, including that 10 unit, we bought 50 units in less than two years and achieved our goal of financial freedom.


Speaker 0 (00:16:46) - That is really fast. And I note that at that point with the 55 units, you had a million dollar net worth and those assets generated $85,000 in annual cash flow. But dropping back thinking philosophically the book that introduced me to the concept that I didn't wanna believe for a moment or at least it was one of the Robert Kiosaki books and that is being wealthy is a choice. I actually didn't believe that. And you are being very intentional with the out-of-the-box choices that you're making and you and your wife Kristen, much like me, when I started, I didn't have much of my own money either. I started with that three and a half percent down payment on a fourplex. So then really the impetus often for using other people's money is because you have to because you don't have much of your own money.


Speaker 5 (00:17:33) - Yeah. And that's part of, you know, creating the grit. It can be a a blessing to those of us that wanna learn and grow to not have a lot handed to us because the confidence that it brings to be able to figure stuff out and get creative. And what I love is, and what I hope my story helps provide to your audience is when you see somebody else that's done it or hear stories of real people that have done it, it just unlocks the capability inside to say, Hey, that guy doesn't look that special. I think I could walk down some of the same road. So totally agree that it's, it's a philosophical shift and for me the big one was buy cash flowing assets. That kind of became my mantra that all my work, all my effort, all my energy went into acquiring cash flow producing assets and that simple concept just opened a whole new world,


Speaker 0 (00:18:26) - Real assets produce real income. So you began with, it sounds like a rental single family home and then shortly thereafter this 10 unit apartment building that sounded like that was the real pivot point for you. It allowed you to get creative that just gave you that much more room, that much more leverage. Had that been a duplex and it appraised overvalue or probably wouldn't have appraised 150 K overvalue like a 10 plex did. So tell us more about the options that gave you in growing this fast.


Speaker 5 (00:18:55) - The reason I was looking for a larger building is cuz my wife had gotten pregnant. She was working part-time during that portion of her life and I just had it in my heart. You know, she had wanted to stay at home with our kids once we started having kids. So she's pregnant, I'm thinking let's go find an asset that would replace her part-time income. So I was looking for smaller things honestly. I was like, well maybe if I buy a couple duplexes or a couple triplexes and then this 10 unit came on the market, but I'd had some issues with this seller on a previous purchase that we were trying to work towards and they just seemed a little bit squirrely. So I said, you know what, I want to give the most airtight offer that I can. So I talked to a hard money lender, said, Hey, I'm gonna offer all cash, no contingencies.


Speaker 5 (00:19:43) - So it was a big risk. I mean we're buying 10 units, we only had two at the time, so it felt like this huge stretch didn't have, you know, the money to do it ourselves. So got the hard money loan. But then when we took it to the bank and they gave us the appraisals, like oh my goodness. So not only did they pay off the hard money loan and give us a $75,000 line of credit, they also gave us like maybe 10, $15,000 that we, you know, put in our bank account. But then we could use that 75,000 to go put down payments on other properties and go buy other properties cash and then refinance out of 'em. So it really just, it changed everything. It unlocked everything for us.


Speaker 0 (00:20:19) - If you were going all cash, why did you need the hard money loan?


Speaker 5 (00:20:23) - The hard money loan. Once I secured that, I could offer all cash to I see the seller. So I gave 'em a cash contract because I had the cash lined up with the hard money lender.


Speaker 0 (00:20:34) - So it was about that deal making using your intuition when one seems squirrely. So that really leveraged things for you there in order to grow that faster as you're going through this process, as you're building this portfolio. Okay, now you've got 55 units, which does give you enough cash flow, $85,000 a year for most people to declare financial freedom. The interesting thing is you had the million dollar net worth at that time. Most people with a million dollar net worth are really only about middle class because they don't have residual cash flow. So net worth matters, but it's not as important as your passive income. You had the 80 5K of residual income accompanying that million dollar net worth and that's what makes the difference.


Speaker 5 (00:21:23) - Yeah, it goes back to the cash flow producing assets. All my effort was focused on acquiring those assets that would pay me the rest of my life. Never flipped anything, have a lot of friends that do flipping and I didn't want to get addicted to that big payout. You know, I take one single family house and maybe I make 20, 30, 40, 50,000 on it. I felt like I was gonna get addicted to that. Whereas for us, the first house that we bought, Keith, like $200 a month of cash flow, it's like this feels like it's doing next to nothing. But I said, you know what, I have a long-term goal here. The only way to get there is one property at a time, one step at a time. You eat the elephant one bite at a time. And so I said, let me continue making steps towards my goal and it snowballed faster than I expected. But again, cash flow producing assets,


Speaker 0 (00:22:12) - Find that first property with say, $200 in monthly cash flow. That doesn't change really anything in your financial life, but it changes your mindset. It's a pretty incredible moment. Like ta-da when that $200 shows up month in and month out with little or none of your own effort at all. That's really where it starts. You talk about retiring shortly after this time and you had a major philosophical shift then when you retired at just age 33. So tell us about that.


Speaker 5 (00:22:42) - I thought retirement was the goal. You know, I read in four hour work week and other, you know, books like that and it's like inactivity is the goal and I'm ashamed to say that I bought into that and you know, I can't wait till I do nothing. So once we got there, literally within a week I was bored. I'd worked like crazy to get to that point. I was working, you know, 50, 60 hours a week at my normal job plus buying and self-managing, you know, up to 50 units on the side. So it was a lot of work and I needed some time to rest. But after a week of rest, all my energy came back and I said, this feels wrong. I just had this sense. I have not been created to go through the rest of my life from 33 on in my easy chair.


Speaker 5 (00:23:27) - I wasn't expecting that at all. It, it hit me by surprise. And so I realized that that goal of financial freedom was a great motivator, but very empty once we got there. We recalibrated, my wife and I, you know, a lot of time in prayer talking with each other. It was a new experience to think we can do anything we want now. You know, our decision on what we do next is doesn't need to be dependent on how to pay our bills. Simple lifestyle, 85,000 a year covers us, but as we considered it, realized absolutely love what I'm doing, but this would be so much more fulfilling if we did it in relationship, became a part of other people's story, helped them on their journey, invest together, build a community and get to know people, build long-term relationships. So that was the major shift and uh, it's been seven years since then, so I appreciate that. Uh, you said I'm not much older than 33, uh,  40, which I guess isn't too far out, but we've had a lot more fulfillment in the last seven years as we've been a part of other people's journey.


Speaker 0 (00:24:30) - So that was really the turning 0.7 years ago at age 33 where you're like, we did what we have to do now we get to do what we want to do. Yeah, you're a man that serves. So basically to that point you had been serving society with good housing and now you can pivot to serving investors.


Speaker 5 (00:24:48) - Yeah, and really to me, service is life. The Bible talks about if you want to receive, give and you'll receive. So I've never focused on how do I receive, how do I get more. For me it's simple. I try to simplify things. What is the one input that I can focus on that then will knock down the rest of the Dominos? So it's give. And so I've looked at how can I serve, how can I give? And that's been my focus and that has opened up tremendous, uh, doors of opportunity. So seven years ago a mutual friend with Dave Zuck and he's doing these syndications and I was like, Dave, I wanna learn this, I wanna do this. So he introduced me to the guys that taught him and we started doing larger deals and, and Keith, I started on the smaller end. The first two deals that I put together as syndications were both 11 unit apartment buildings.


Speaker 5 (00:25:41) - And I'd already bought 10 units and 11 units and 12 unit buildings myself at that point. And I didn't need other people's capital to buy those, that point of our journey. But the goal had shifted from before that it was, how can I maximize my profit on these real estate deals, you know, maximize my cash flow, maximize my profit, and it switched to how can I give people a great experience with me? And so to me you can't give without it coming back. So in one sense I gave away more equity than I would've needed to, to have some investors and partners come along the journey with me. But I knew that if I gave them a good experience and learned this business, that that would snowball into a scale that we would never have been able to touch outside of that, which is exactly what's happened.


Speaker 0 (00:26:32) - It's interesting that you mentioned 11 unit apartment buildings because I have owned some of those myself. Oftentimes that's a zone I've operated in kind of these mid-sized apartment buildings. Things that are, are a million and a half dollars in value or below because oftentimes the big boys don't play there. But now you learn how to be a go-giver, that's become part of who you are and that's how you could go bigger with larger apartment buildings in making those opportunities available to investors.


Speaker 5 (00:27:00) - Yeah, it's really hard to take on investors at a smaller level. So when the, the focus shifted to how can I be a part of people's journeys and make long-term relationships with people, the answer is to scale up. And so, you know, we've scaled from there to now we own over 2000 apartments, uh, with our investor group and me serving them as a general partner.


Speaker 0 (00:27:21) - Congratulations. One of the first things that struck me about you when I met you is really your holistic vision of what wealth is. Finances are obviously part of that, but only one piece of the pie and you often champion generational wealth. Tell us about how you think of total wealth and generational wealth.


Speaker 5 (00:27:42) - I have three kids now. Uh, they are the greatest gifts in my wife and i's life. And when you have kids and you have people that you pour into, you start thinking about how can you improve their lives and how can you build something that outlives you? So this generational wealth concept has been, I would almost say consuming me. I mean it's just how I filter everything that I do. Where you set your strategy, tells you what your tactics are gonna be. So if you're making short-term decisions, you can do things that work short-term. They don't necessarily need to work long-term. But I said, what's the most successful patterns that I see in the world of wealth, in the world of impact? And it's these family dynasties that grow, preserve and pass on wealth from generation to generation. And so for me, there's a few things that go into that.


Speaker 5 (00:28:40) - It's obviously the financial wealth that's a big piece of it. You need, if you're gonna talk about generational wealth, you're talking about a substantial amount of money that gets passed from one generation to the next in in such a way that it can be carried on by that next generation. But we've all seen examples where just giving the money is not a total solution. And so really focusing on the relationships around you and the people and your family. I'm a fan of making your wife the greatest treasure your spouse, you know, for our ladies out there, your significant other, make them the greatest treasure that you have on earth. I look at my wife as my greatest treasure. I look at our kids as our greatest treasure. My kids right now are eight, six, and two and we train them from day one to think of themselves as kings and queens.


Speaker 5 (00:29:32) - I started with two daughters and then my third born is, is a little boy. So he's our little king. But there's this princess culture. All the little girls are princesses. Yeah. And when we grow up we sometimes hear what we heard as a kid in first person. Sometimes people still have those tapes that play and what's a princess? I mean entitled. Yeah, you're royalty but you don't have any responsibility ever since day one. I was like, you're not princesses, you are queens, you're powerful, but you have responsibility. You have resources but you have an obligation to use that to serve the people around you. God made you beautiful. So let's be accepting of every single person that we see, whether they are beautiful or not on the outside the resources that we have. I feel like we are to be a steward of it's never given to us, to prop us up and make others serve us.


Speaker 5 (00:30:25) - For me, my resources is a responsibility to serve others with what I've been given. So pouring into the kids spiritual wealth, which we talked earlier about the Jewish people and how they're the highest net worth per capita people group. Yeah, you look at the rich spiritual history that they passed down for thousands of years from generation to generation to generation. And so in our family, you know the stories of faith, the stories of courage, the stories of high character, I have those in my family that I'm passing down and we're creating new stories that we're passing down. And then the final one for me here on the generational wealth kind of holistic topic is one that you and I um, have some commonality with. And just physical health. If you're not taking care of your body, that is a major hindrance to long-term wealth. You know, your income generating capacity grows as you get older.


Speaker 5 (00:31:21) - We have this retirement mindset in a lot of our country, which I bought into, you know, in my thirties. I don't think it's as helpful as we may think it is if we want to continue to serve others. Our capacity to serve continues to go up throughout our lifetime as long as we're maintain faculty. And so to continue serving, generating wealth throughout our life, lasting as long as we can, putting things in place for the next generation. I wanna be around for a long time. I know you do too. And uh, it starts with taking care of ourselves.


Speaker 0 (00:31:54) - If I do invest well I'm sure gonna wanna be healthy enough to enjoy all of that. So it's really a symbiotic relationship. And you host an event. This year's theme is generational wealth. We're gonna learn about that in just a moment. But why don't you tell us just as a teaser, how does one prevent their generational wealth from getting frittered away? We know that often happens and the generational wealth doesn't really become generational wealth cuz often it doesn't last beyond one or two generations. The Rockefellers are a good example of what to do and keep wealth generational for example. But how do we prevent our wealth from being frittered away? Cuz there's a difference obviously between an inheritance and generational wealth


Speaker 5 (00:32:37) - Just practically for a moment for people that, um, are listening. Number one, you need to learn how money works and you need to get your wealth into assets and protect it from inflation and taxes. You know, those are the two biggest thiefs. So that's number one is, is you need to safeguard your money. Then once you have the wealth built and protected, it's really about passing on the character. That's really what it all comes down to because if you hand an ill-prepared heir a bunch of money, that is typically the worst thing that you can do for 'em. So it's passing on the character and instilling that and developing that in your heirs. There's different strategies for this, you know, you can recording the stories, some of the origin stories of grit, of resolve, of sticking with something until it is successful. Those stories inspire the next generations.


Speaker 5 (00:33:32) - Maybe they don't have the need for the same level of grit, but they can understand the diligence that is required to create and steward the wealth. So recording the stories people do family conferences where you know, if you're a wealth creator for your family, fly everybody in and have some meetings, you know, do it in a fun place, have some fun connected to it. You can have sessions where you're teaching the next generation about how to steward that wealth. You're giving not only the wealth but you're giving the mindsets and the tools of how to create and steward that. So again, goes back to character and the internal wealth that is needed to steward the external wealth, the the physical wealth, the capital and assets and everything.


Speaker 0 (00:34:23) - Oh yeah, that's some really helpful actionable stuff there. If you want to have what most people don't have, you need to be willing to do what most people won't do. Like perhaps these extended family get togethers and yes, that is important stewarding generational wealth. You can watch a a 30 minute video and learn something about taxes or inflation, but character can't so easily be taught. And this is part of what you are talking about at your upcoming event, generational Wealth 2023 in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Tell us about it.


Speaker 5 (00:34:56) - This is our third year of doing, uh, this event. It really strikes a chord with our folks because typically the people that come to our events, they've bought the concept that wealth is not merely an external pursuit and if you don't have the internal wealth to go alongside of it, it ends up being pretty empty. So generational wealth, it's getting people together that have created and stewarded that and then sharing some of the real life stories. Dave Zuck is gonna be a speaker. He's uh, second generation in their family business now. Dave has a bunch of other, you know, businesses with their, his syndication and incredible money manager that he is. But this year his father actually has agreed to talk with us about how he started the family company. So I'm gonna interview him then I'm gonna bring up the four boys, Dave and his three brothers and what it's like taking the business from one level to another, successfully managing that in the second generation and growing it and how they're now passing it along to their children and preparing them to step into leadership.


Speaker 5 (00:36:00) - So I have a couple large businesses that are multi-generation that are gonna share like this also have Mitzi Perdue, I don't know if you've ever gotten a chance to know her. She was the daughter of the man that started uh, the Sheraton Hotels. So grew up in that family dynasty and then married Frank Perdue who created Purdue Chicken and today has, you know, 20,000 some employees. So she's seen from a couple different angles, family dynamics and family wealth that goes generation to generation and she's just a wonderful lady. Such a heart for other people and so full of life. I think she's in her eighties, she's a teenager, she's just so full of life. So she's coming, have a lot of amazing speakers and attendees that fly in from around the country. Last year we had about 350 people excited to see who shows up this year.


Speaker 0 (00:36:49) - See, this is why I wanted to talk about this event because I have attended so many in-person real estate events and masterminds and general investing events. And rarely, if ever do I see multiple generations come up on the stage at the same time to talk about how to do this the right way. Generationally, very few people in events just really think this long term. So I have to congratulate you in advance for putting this together. It's August 18th and 19th and again it is in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Do you have any last thoughts Michael?


Speaker 5 (00:37:22) - So if people want to go to invest, that would be a spot to check us out.


Speaker 0 (00:37:28) - I'm highly confident the future generations of your family will know you for more than crawling through a rural Lancaster County Pennsylvania cave.


Speaker 5 (00:37:36) - Yeah, hopefully my legacy includes more than our cave, uh, adventure, even though that was a blast. Last thoughts Keith. I just wanna encourage people to step out into what they feel in their heart to pursue. You know, it takes faith, it takes risk, but it's absolutely achievable. And so I hope my story has provided some encouragement to folks and if any of your people want to come to our event, we would welcome 'em with open arms. So thank you for today, Keith.


Speaker 0 (00:38:02) - It's a unique event in my experience. It's been great having you on the show.


Speaker 0 (00:38:12) - Yeah, as I've gotten to know Michael, he is a real go-giver now. He and his wife began with a single family rental home while they were still renters. Yeah, they owned that rental property before they even had a primary residence. I know a lot of successful people that have done just that. And then it sounded like for him, his third property, a 10 plex, that was the real pivot point. Of course, my pivot point was that very first purchase a fourplex. So for each one of us, the pivot point really came when we felt like we had massive access to other people's money. And you might feel like you have massive access to other people's money with just a 75 or 80% loan on a single family rental or duplex. If that's where you're starting, you don't need Rockefeller or Vanderbilt fortunes to get this going there at Invest Elevate.


Speaker 0 (00:39:04) - The interesting thing about their generational wealth event two months from now is how, from talking to Michael, he's actually not super motivated to have speakers there that are the most well-known names and Polish speakers, even if he has the chance to get them. Now you are gonna find some of those there, but he's interested in real stories, real people, and making a real impact with speakers that don't have some big marketing or sales agenda. And some conference attendees just want to meet the biggest names and get an Instagram selfie with them. And there's nothing wrong with that. You might even do some of that here, but he values real connection in meaning. And yeah, I've never heard of anyone else getting multiple generations of the same families on stage as he interviews them, including people that aren't used to speaking to an in-person audience of a few hundred people. Besides the generational component, you're also going to learn a lot about investing and meet a bunch of genuine, authentic people. That's the environment that he's creating. Gratitude to. Michael Manti Today it is Generational Wealth 2023 in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, August 18th and 19th. Check out invest Until next week, I'm your host Keith. We hold. Don't quit your day. Adrian


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Speaker 6 (00:40:27) - On this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial, or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education L L C exclusively.


Speaker 0 (00:40:55) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for Wealth building. Get rich

Direct download: GREepisode454_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

The world’s most powerful nation can’t even house its own people. Keith Weinhold discusses housing shortage problems and solutions.

Meet our new Investment Coach, Aundrea. Coaching is free for you. It helps you purchase investment properties. Connect with both of our coaches now at:

We discuss: international RE investing, accumulated dead equity, portfolio loans, declining LTVs, rising insurance premiums, and regional markets.

Aundrea can help you with properties nationwide. We discuss Southeast Georgia and the Intermountain West.

Southeast Georgia has strong cash flow. We discuss mid-term rentals (MTRs) in the area. Many are single-families under $200K.

MTRs are furnished and the owner pays the utilities.

In LTRs, a 1% rent-to-price ratio is possible.

The Intermountain West features new-build duplexes to fourplexes in fast-growth Utah. 

These are better for long-term appreciation and inflation-profiting. Often, you get built-in equity. Fourplexes prices are $970K.

Aundrea’s coaching makes it easy for you. She’ll learn your goals. If you prefer, she’ll help you: run the property numbers, write your offer, negotiate inspection and appraisal, manage your property, and help you through closing.   

Get started at:

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

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Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

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Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

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Direct download: GREepisode453_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

Keith Weinhold and Ken McElroy discuss the impact of rising mortgage rates on the commercial real estate market. 

They talk about the foreclosure of a Houston real estate investment firm, and the need for syndicators to anticipate changes in interest rates and have capital reserves in place. 

The speakers predict that high-rise commercial office buildings will be the first domino to fall in the commercial real estate market. 

They also discuss the potential fallout from the expiration of commercial debt and the upcoming Limitless Expo event in Scottsdale, Arizona.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Attend the Limitless event, June 15th-17th:

$22M Office Building to Convert to Multifamily:

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

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Complete transcript:


Keith Weinhold (00:00:02) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host Keith Weinhold last year's spiking of the Fed funds rate caused banks to fail this year and last year's. Doubling of mortgage rates is causing commercial real estate to fail this year. Why is it happening? How bad is it with commercial real estate and how bad will it get? That's the topic of today's conversation with Ken McElroy on Get Rich Education.


Speaker 1 (00:00:27) - Taxes are your biggest expense. The best way to reduce your burden is real estate. Increase your income with amazing returns and reduce your taxable income with real estate write-offs. As an employee with a high salary, you are devastated by taxes. Lighten your tax burden. With real estate incentives. You can offset your income from a W2 job and from capital gains Freedom. Family Investments is the experience partner you've been looking for. The Real Estate Insider Fund is that vehicle, this fund investing real estate projects that make an impact. And you can join with as little as $50,000. Insiders get preferred returns of 10 to 12%. This means you get paid first. Insiders enjoy cash on a quarterly basis and the tax benefits are life changing. Join the Freedom Family and become a real estate insider. Start on your path to financial freedom through passive income. Text family to 6 6 8 66. This is not a solicitation and is for accredited investors only. Please text family to 6 6 8 66 for complete details.


Speaker 2 (00:01:36) - You are listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:59) - Welcome to GRE from Montreal, Quebec to Monterey, California across North America and spanning 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Wein. Hold in your listening to Get Rich Education. Real estate investing is our major here. Minors are in both wealth mindset and the economics of real estate. That's what the matriculated graduates with here at G R E. You can think of an interest rate as how much it costs you to use money and to help you understand the preeminence of the cost of money. Let's you and I step back together for a second. If you go buy apples at the supermarket and Apple cost increase affects you. If you go buy a gallon of paint at Home Depot, a paint cost increase affects you. And if you go buy an acre of raw land, a land cost increase affects you. But rising interest rates mean that there was an increase in your money cost and you use money to buy those very apples paint or raw land.


Speaker 1 (00:03:04) - And now you begin to realize how interest rates touch and percolate into every single thing that you buy as a consumer or as an investor. And we know that interest rates are not currently high. Historically, yeah, you heard that right now that's not much consolation to those that are in trouble. But the Fed funds rate is about 5% and all year here the mortgage rate on an only occupied home has stayed between a range of six and 7%. Actually, mortgage rates are a little low. Their 50 year average is about seven and a half percent. Well, so then what's the problem? Well, the problem is not what are indeed historically normal rates. It's that rates rose so fast last year. You look at a graph and they climbed a wall. In fact, it's unprecedented, at least in you and i's lifetime to have them rise that fast. Just last year alone, mortgage rates spiked from 3% up to 7%. Economists estimate a 56% chance that they indeed are going to raise the Fed funds rate again. Yep. There is another meeting. Just next week, let's learn about commercial real estate deals blowing up with Ken McElroy.


Speaker 1 (00:04:28) - I'd like to welcome back longtime real estate investor influencer and multi-time bestselling real estate author and G R E podcast guest regular. Really? Hey, it's the return of Ken McElroy. How's it going Ken?


Speaker 3 (00:04:40) - Great Keith, how are you? It's good chief. Terrific. Great to see you in Arizona too recently.


Speaker 1 (00:04:45) - Yeah, that's right. We were just together in Arizona a few weeks ago, both there and everywhere across the United States, we know that residential loans are for the one to four unit space where those properties typically have long-term fixed interest rate debt, 15 to 30 years. The five plus unit department space is tied to commercial lending even though it's residential property and they often have variable rate debt for a shorter term. And commercial loans are where the trouble is in this world of higher mortgage rates. And a few months ago it made a lot of news in our world, Ken, that a Houston real estate investment firm that was at one time one of the city's largest landlords with $500 million worth of multifamily. They got foreclosed on and launched 3,200 apartments at the time. And one major reason were these floating interest rates that rose so much and rents couldn't keep up proportionately and more deals are going belly up like that. So Ken, tell us about what you are seeing out there now in regard to rising mortgage rates affecting the commercial lending market.


Speaker 3 (00:05:45) - Well, it's true. Obviously we all know that the Fed raise rates 10 times, so they were obviously fighting inflation. So if you bid around this business enough to know, know, you should have known that the Fed usually increases rates when inflation goes high. And so it is one of the tools that they use to kind of tampering 'em down inflation because that, no, the Fed is more concerned about inflation than interest rates because you obviously inflation affects everyone. So yeah, if you're in the real estate space, you might feel like you're being picked on. But the truth is, it's not surprising to anybody who's been around that they use this interest rate increases as a mechanism to lower inflation or the masses. So some of those mistakes that were made, I think it was Arbor, you have to go back to the experience of the syndicator. They elected not to buy interest rate caps and have other kinds of protections around those assets. And unfortunately, you know, some of those investors that invested in those assets, those were things that maybe weren't very clear to them. Uh, we're not exactly sure of all the details, but what's gonna happen next Keith, is we're going to start to see there's gonna be a big division of the experience versus the inexperience, I would guess


Speaker 1 (00:07:08) - A divergency, yes, of course that Fed has that dual mandate of full employment and stable prices since they're still doing pretty well on the employment. They want to get stable prices and the way to get a handle on that is to continue to raise rates. And when the Fed raise rates essentially from zero to five in just about a year, things are going to break. And we're talking about right now what is breaking first in the real estate space. And you mentioned a syndicator, when one buys an apartment building, oftentimes they get what's called a value add project, this renovation stage. And during that time they often have this variable interest rate debt. So often we are talking about apartment syndicators here, sponsors that put the deal together and what the syndicator essentially does is buy the apartment, renovate it, raise the rent, and then they cash it out to investors by either selling it or refinancing it at a higher value. And right here, these are the people that we're talking about that are in trouble due to their rates being jacked up.


Speaker 3 (00:08:07) - That's exactly right. I think you always have to anticipate a change in interest rates, whether they're up or they're down. And I think a lot of times people just always believe that they would stay as is. And I think that was obviously a flaw in their thinking and a flaw in their strategy. The other one of course is capital reserves. You know, cash, you have to have all these things in place. It looked to me from the article, the articles and the, and the different pictures and and things I've seen that they may have run into the problems on the management side as well. And you know, so there's a number of issues that I could see potentially that affected them. And I actually am hearing others kind of stories around this Keith as well. The first domino really to fall I think is gonna be some of these highrise commercial office buildings.


Speaker 3 (00:09:01) - That would be my guess because in a very different scenario where a lot of the folks that own those and maybe were in those, a lot of those tenants are deciding that they don't want their people to come back. Maybe they're doing a work from home model or the people that work for them decide that they don't wanna be back or whatever scenarios there are. There's definitely a lot of vacancies. I was looking today, you know, we're looking at pretty high uh, vacancies in la we're looking at very high vacancies in San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, New York. When I'm talking about high, I'm talking about unprecedented. We're talking about 30, 40% in many cases and in some cases even more so we know that if you have a vacancy that high, you're definitely not paying the debt. And so there's all kinds of these big landlords that are actually defaulting on their loans of those commercial office buildings.


Speaker 1 (00:10:01) - Now we're talking about vacancy in the office space there and we think really in our residential world, of course people think of you as a multi-family guy, but you also are in, you know, self stores in some other spaces. But we just think about the crux of the problem and how that's centered on residential. Maybe you can just talk to us, Ken, about exactly the details of the problem or maybe you have an example from a case study and just what that, that structure looks like for those in trouble.


Speaker 3 (00:10:29) - Why would I be concerned about it? Is, is probably a really good question. And the reason is is because don't forget, we all go to banks for stuff. So if it's an auto loan, a residential loan, a commercial loan or a business loan, it's still a financial institution and it's all connected even though we might only be going for one piece of that. And so as the commercial paper starts to default and starts to make its way into these large regional, smaller community banks, then what's going to happen is the underwriting criteria is going, they're gonna pull back because they don't care. They just know that they're taking water in the boat and they're in trouble. So, so that's why I look at it, you know, obviously, but you have to look at the real estate, the landscape completely, and you realize that, you know, while you might be just doing one piece of that, there are lot and these banks are connected out in the community in many, many, many ways, right?


Speaker 1 (00:11:30) - Yeah, that's it right there. Maybe people, some don't think about just a complete seizure and a reluctance to want to extend loans at all if they have enough on their books that are in trouble,


Speaker 3 (00:11:40) - Right? So that's why I'm looking at it from the multi-family standpoint as well, because we're already seeing underwriting criteria or in other words, banks are saying we're gonna give you less 50% loan to value, 55% loan to value. So why would that be? The reason is is that you know, they're looking at their, just like you would be and and all your personal assets that you have, stocks, bonds, gold real estate, whatever it is, business, each one is performing differently. A bank looks at it exactly the same way. So if something's happening over here that's negative, it's affecting over here and it's shining a light on the whole thing. And so we're already seeing a tougher underwriting. And what that means is that means that you're gonna have to come up with more money for down payments. And of course the banks are gonna be very cautious about any kind of lending if it's on a single family, if it's on a multi-family, if it's on a residential or retail or industrial or office buildings or self storage or whatever it might be. It we're all connected. And so that's what I think is gonna be hitting us is we're gonna be in a debt and a credit crisis here in the next 18 months.


Speaker 1 (00:12:54) - So there could be downward pressure on loan to value ratios, your bank wanting you to put more skin in the game so that they are less exposed and you are more exposed there. So we're talking about maybe new purchases oftentimes in that discussion. What about those that have a loan? Maybe the interest rate has gone higher, they want to refinance it. You know, a lot of times we talk about cash out refinances is something that we want to do when equity accumulates, but could this be an environment for cash in refinances with a lot of these commercial loans?


Speaker 3 (00:13:29) - Yeah, so we've done a couple cash in personally. Yeah. So what does that mean entirely? So what happens is, well let's say you had a load at three and now of course they're over five. Well our rate caps hit us at five, but we still don't forget, we went from three to five. So that little bit of piece was expensive for us even though we had a cap though, recap is simply just an insurance policy on the original purchase, that's all. So we're like okay, that cost us about 20 grand a month on this one property as an example,


Speaker 1 (00:13:59) - The rate cap below


Speaker 3 (00:14:00) - The rate cap below the rate cap purchase was less, but the three to 5% that increase in the mortgage payment was about 20,000 a month. Okay, so call it 250,000 for the year for one asset. So you're like, uh oh. I went from having great cash flow to having a lot less cash flow because my rate went out now it hit the cap. Well I was protected but it still went up 2%. So we started to take a look at what would it cost for us to fix this rate and it was uh, about a million bucks for a cash in. So we did it, we said let's do a million dollar cash in, fix the rate because I'm also afraid of future rate increases. So that $1 million that we put in to fix the rate at 5.2%, we know it's a four year payback or 250,000 times four is a four year payback.


Speaker 3 (00:14:52) - So it's a four year loan. But really what we're doing is we're hedging the entire time and of course we have that cashflow coming out each and every month. And the beauty of that E as you know, is what you do is you hedge the upside. You can always re refinance on the doubt. And all I was trying to do was protect that thing from when the recap expired, what's usually caps for two or three years, let's say. I didn't wanna be in a position where it was, you know, six or seven or something. So that's why we did it. We were just protecting against the future. And these are the kinds of things that you can do if you've been in the room before, you know what I mean? You, if you have the experience and and you see these kinds of things happening, you could take action to help yourself and help your investors. And that is clear that the arbor had not set up their loans that way. They had not set up their cash that way and they perhaps weren't looking at some of those things critically like that.


Speaker 1 (00:15:49) - Anna and I were each active real estate investors through the global financial crisis. So we know a crisis well, we see what each crisis is a little different when we talk about hedging ourselves against the crisis. Can you talk about rate caps, which is basically this insurance that one can buy to put a cap on how high their rates can go. If you go ahead and buy a property to 3% interest rate and you have a 2% rate cap, that means your cap cannot exceed 5%. So therefore if rates go up to 7%, you're kind of in the money.


Speaker 3 (00:16:19) - That's exactly right. And so it's clear to me that they didn't buy those cap, by the way, they're not the only one. There are others. And so if you shine the light on the multifamily industry, there's a fair amount of people that didn't do that either, not just them. And also there's other people that don't have the cash perhaps like the million dollars that we used to do a cash in. And so they're going out to their investors to try to preserve the asset. The crazy thing about it, as you know is we're still very under supply and on a housing stamp. Yeah, the fundamentals of the apartments are actually good though we're still seeing a a little bit moderate red growth and we're hitting theis and the occupancies are good. The apartment industry is not in any kind of crisis. The one thing that's changed is the cost of debt has got up a lot.


Speaker 1 (00:17:14) - Why don't we talk about that some more and just how bad is it going to get Ken, maybe through the perspective of just how much commercial debt is about to expire.


Speaker 3 (00:17:24) - If you google this, you'll see that there's about 1.4 trillion expiring by the end of 2024. So that's a lot . And so what has to happen is, Keith, let's say you all bought something. Well actually there's already examples. If you Google, there's an office tower that was appraised and valued at 250,000,002 years ago and it just traded at 70 as an example. Wow. So there's a big, big haircut there, right? So first of all, all the equity on that original deal gone wipe down and then the that 70, all that does is cover part of probably the debt. So some bank somewhere took it in the shorts, you know, on that deal. And so that is a good segue to say what happens is anything that was purchased, let's say in uh, call it one to three years ago, is subject to massive valuation change.


Speaker 3 (00:18:23) - And if they have a situation where they're trying to do a cash out refi and they're not going to be able to, if they have a situation where they're going to sell, they're not going to be able to because the value of that asset is probably 20 to 30% less than it was just two years ago. So what's going to happen is if they can wait, they might be able to wait it out. If rates go down like everybody's hoping it will, or cap rates go back down like everybody's hoping it will, then you're going to be fine. The issue is going to be the maturities and when they hit,


Speaker 1 (00:19:01) - There's a 20 to 30% loss in value as we know at a 75% loan to value loan. Yes, that is a complete wipe out of the equity. Ken, when we think this through, of course apartments have debt that someone is holding onto and apartments also have equity that someone else is holding onto and equity could be held by. It's not just investors in a syndication, it's also a pension fund or a family office. And if these go under, we have to think about those ramifications of course, but we think about equity that's held by LPs limited partners, which are those individuals that invest in a syndication. What do you think that LPs should do? What kind of situation are they in? I mean are syndicators communicating with their LPs and letting them know things like, hey, there just isn't gonna be a distribution this quarter and I don't know about next quarter either or, how's that communication been?


Speaker 3 (00:19:52) - So it's hard to know. Obviously if you read the article about Arbor, there was not much and a lot of the investors were surprised. It's interesting though, cuz if you really dial into it, there's no way that they were making distributions for a long time as the things were defaulting. So there must have not been distributions on those assets for some time. That would be obviously a red flag. So I think that some syndicators are probably communicating very, very well. But in this particular case, that wasn't happening because of what some of the people were saying in the article that had invested with them.


Speaker 1 (00:20:31) - And when you're talking about Arbor, you're talking about that group in Houston that I brought yeah, up earlier. That's really become sort of like the poster child for what's coming can often that might make one think like the LP that invests in someone else's syndication that might make a savvy investor wonder, well gosh, I wonder if there's going to be a contagion effect. Even if a syndicator shows me a deal and that one particular deal looks really good, does that syndicator have other deals behind him that are blowing up and could affect this good deal that looks good in front of me right now. So what are your thoughts about any sort of contagion effect that way? Are you seeing any of that out there?


Speaker 3 (00:21:08) - It's certainly possible. I know that a lot of it's gonna be based around the debt itself. So if somebody got a deal like we did like two years ago or one year ago that put fixed rate debt on it, not a problem. So you have to take a look at the maturity of the debt. There's a lot of people that have bought properties that where they assumed alone in the commercial space you can assume something, people are still doing deals, you know, so if you could step into somebody else's loan at three, three and a half percent, let's say you're not gonna have a default issue, you're not gonna have a debt issue where the debt's gonna go up while you bought something, it's fixed. And that was kind of the whole point. As you know, I've been telling people to get in fixed straight debt for two years. If you go back and look at my videos, I probably said it a hundred times, getting fixed straight debt, getting fixed straight debt, getting fixed straight debt because you have to know what your debt payment is month to month to month for a long period of time. You don't want a fluctuating variable number. And so the people who didn't do that, the people that in my opinion were inexperienced and didn't by caps, this is the result of that.


Speaker 1 (00:22:23) - We've been talking a lot about problems here. Of course the flip side of any problem is an opportunity. You are an excellent opportunist. You just talked about situations where apartment values could be down 20 or 30%. So are you seeing opportunity, especially with respect to apartment buildings and what's going on coming ahead?


Speaker 3 (00:22:43) - We looked at four deals on Tuesday, we've been in opera on one of 'em. So to your point, if somebody's sitting on some assets and they need cash for ones that aren't doing well, for example, they might sell a couple of the good assets. And what's a good asset? A good asset would be something that's highly occupied and is stable and has fixed rate debt and it's something that you can easily underwrite, easily buy, and you know it's gonna be like clipping a coupon moving forward. That would be what I would call a good asset purchase. And those are definitely hitting the market. So I mean, you think about your own portfolio, you know, at any given time you're looking at the winners and you're looking at the losers, sometimes you have to sell a winner to pay for some of the losers. So we're starting to see some good assets hit the market.


Speaker 3 (00:23:32) - That might be great. They help somebody that's um, in a situation that might need cash for something else. So that is exactly what does happen. That is what's happening. So we're gonna be all over those issues and try to snap up some of these really, really nice assets. Another really good opportunity is going to be on brand new class A apartments that are just now being completed. So you know, as you know on a new construction deal, you do not get fixed straight debt because there's no asset. It doesn't exist. So you have a land, you have to build it until it's considered in service, which means you have all the occupancy certificates and it's blessed and the city says, okay, it's all ready to move it. That's in service. And until that point you can't put fixed rate debt on anything. So there's going to be this many opportunities on assets that are under construction that are in trouble because of these high interest rates. People that come in with all cash, for example, are going to be able to buy some of those properties. What I would guess at under replacement costs, it's going be a very exciting time moving forward for buying perhaps real trophy assets or assets up that people have already done a lot of work on or under what they're worth.


Speaker 1 (00:24:51) - That could be a good niche to exploit. You're listening to get Resu education. We're talking with Ken McElroy about trouble in the commercial lending market and how that affects real estate. Warren, we come back. I'm your host Keith WeHo with J W B Real Estate Capital. Jacksonville Real Estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor. Since 2013, JWB is ready to help your money, make money, and to make it easy for everyday investors, get slash gre. That's jwb real GRE listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS four 2056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plexes. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Chaley Ridge personally. They'll even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. This is peak prosperity's. Chris Martinson, listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Wein old and don't quit your daydream.


Speaker 1 (00:26:33) - Welcome back to Get Education. We're talking with Ken McElroy, longtime influencer and very successful author, A great influencer in the real estate space. And can you hit mentioned some other sectors outside of the residential and the apartment space earlier, and we look at potential problems or opportunities outside of residential and we think about what's happening to office space. You touched on that earlier, that's probably about the worst real estate sector I can imagine in their high vacancy rates, hotels and retail and warehouses, which actually think about one sector as doing pretty good since the pandemic and online shopping really lifted the warehouse sector. But do you really have any other thoughts about those sectors, how commercial loans affect them or any good opportunities in those outside of residential?


Speaker 3 (00:27:24) - As everyone knows, you know, when you buy a home, they look at your FCO score, right? They look at your credit and they look at you or me as the person paying that home as they should. When you move to the commercial side, they look to the asset. So they're very, very different. One's an individual. Another one is the actual asset. So as these asset values go down, as interest rates go up, I think that anything that's going to need any kind of a loan and the next year or two is going to have a problem from an asset value standpoint. Because what we were all used to in the last 10 years were these value add. So you'd buy something and then you would improve it and it would be worth more money at the credit and debt markets were stable, you know, so you could go, uh, you had a very calculated model where you can go put new debt on there and scoop that out and do a cash out refi that's gone right now because the values are down and of course the cash out refi option is off the table.


Speaker 3 (00:28:30) - So th those are the real problems that people face moving forward. So that could be all kinds of things. It could be retail, it could be industrial, it could be multi-family cuz everything is impacted even though we've had high cracy and red growth in some of those areas. If you're a seller that has a 3% loan and you're trying to sell it to somebody like us who's a buyer, we're probably at six or seven. We're looking at cash flow very differently than they are when our debt costs are almost double. So we're not gonna be able to pay that price. And so that's what the debt, rising debt costs have done. If the income, any expenses are the same, but the debt costs are double, then we as buyers can't afford to pay that. So therefore the prices that we're we can afford to pay are gonna be a lot less. And so that's actually what's happening


Speaker 1 (00:29:26) - And what we think of as perhaps ground zero for problems in the real estate market. I think office first comes to mind, you've talked about office vacancy rates in many American cities being really high earlier, it was a particularly noteworthy stat that was released not long ago that in New York City they have 26 Empire State buildings worth of empty office space. So we talk about all this open office space with more of the work from anywhere crowd and this dearth of residential housing. You know, can you experience, do you learn about very many office buildings being viable for tear down and conversion into residential? Or is that not feasible very


Speaker 3 (00:30:07) - Often? Yeah, so that's the million dollar question. What are we gonna do with these big, big office buildings? And think about this, Keith, let's say it's a 50 story building, which is a very common building all over the place and it's got 20 or 30% occupancy. My guess is, you know, what do you do? Like you have to wait until it's a hundred percent vacant, obviously before you can even do something. So what's going to happen is the banks are actually gonna be taking these back, the banks are gonna be managing these and they're gonna have to figure that out. And the only way to take down an office building is if it's a hundred percent vacant. And even then it might not be worth it because let's don't forget, you step into the shoes on day one of the property taxes of the utilities of the insurance, regardless if it's full or not in order to maintain it.


Speaker 3 (00:30:59) - So there's an operating cost that exists whether there are people in it or not. And so you have to be careful that you're not catching a falling knife. You know, like, I mean if somebody said to me, I'll give you this vacant office building or a dollar, I probably wouldn't take it because unless I had some kind of a solution for the, uh, on the income side. So I'm not saying I wouldn't, but you have to have a solution on the income side to cover your operating expenses. Otherwise you're just gonna be writing checks just like the person before you


Speaker 1 (00:31:34) - That is so well explained on the difficulty of making a conversion feasible from office to residential. Well, if you're like me, you read a lot of Ken McElroy's books like the ABCs of Property Management, the ABCs of Real Estate Investing. Can I read the Return to Orchard Canyon on a beach in India a little over three years ago? Actually, I love that more recent book from you and you have a great live in-person event coming up really soon where the audience can come to see you at a bunch of other speakers. It's a fantastic event. It's a second year, you're doing it, it comes up really soon here in Scottsdale. Tell us about it.


Speaker 3 (00:32:15) - Thank you. It's, I cannot be more excited, especially what's happening right now. It's called Limitless and uh, it's at limitless So it's just limitless But kicking off the very first day is Joseph Wang, who wrote a book called Central Banking 1 0 1 and he is good. He used to work in New York for the Fed and is going to talk specifically about what's the Fed going to do in the second half of the year in 2024 based on all the things that he did on the open markets desk for the Fed. So that's gonna be very exciting. We've got Chris Martinson as well talking right after him, got kiosaki. We have a whole bunch of people around entrepreneurship and um, kind of side hustle stuff just to try to figure out what the heck is happening and what could we be doing to protect ourself moving forward.


Speaker 3 (00:33:11) - So this is really, this year in particular is a not to miss year because these are things that all of us are trying to figure out. I don't have a crystal ball just like anyone does, and I'm studying like crazy to try to figure out what's happening next. We've got 45 speakers all coming to try to help us understand what we can do next. Chris boss, who's, uh, wrote the book, never Split the Difference. If you guys haven't read that book, you need to read that book. He's the hostage negotiator in the world and he works for the FBI and Harvard. And, and his talk is going to be how to negotiate during troubled times because these are going to be real things, Keith, real things that are happening. You know, when there's a debt maturity or a loan coming up or you have problems with your limited partners or, or whatever it might be, this is the room you wanna be and that's the talk you want to hear. Chris is gonna be there, I'm gonna do a podcast with him. He is gonna do a book signing, so it's really fun. It's gonna be Thursday, uh, the 15th, the 16th or the 17th of June. And uh, it's right in Scottdale, Arizona.


Speaker 1 (00:34:21) - Janice Prager will be there as well. And yeah, it seems like you just keep adding speakers. Okay, I wanna talk to you. Last month it was 40 speakers, now it's 45. So you, you have a buffet that you can sample there as an audience?


Speaker 3 (00:34:34) - We do. I can't wait to meet Dennis Prager. I, I've been to his compasses in la I, I'm a big fan of, you know, his messaging and, and what he, he has a billion downloads last year, A billion with a B. That's incredible. So he's getting to be there. I just think it's like the who's who, right? It's tweet thought


Speaker 1 (00:34:52) - 100%. You can get Can I and our audience have benefited from your knowledge for years? Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.


Speaker 3 (00:35:02) - Yeah, my pleasure. Always great to be on


Speaker 1 (00:35:10) - Most of those speakers at the Limitless event. Were guests here on G R E, so you'll probably find a lot of residents there, including Chris Voss who was the FBI's lead hostage negotiator. He was on the show with us here twice you'll remember. And yeah, you'll remember that pretty fondly  because it was entertaining the first time Chris was here back in episode 331, how the World's Best negotiator and I, Chris Voss did a mock face off in negotiating the purchase of a fourplex building. But getting back to imploding apartment syndications, they aren't just blowing up deals and blowing up investors, but also blowing up banks when the borrower cannot repay the loan. And banks have to take back apartment buildings and office buildings unlike, which is actually pretty unusual in a way that they need to take back apartment buildings. I mean, everyone understands how the work from anywhere movement created, the office space decline, but there is quite a demand for all residential types, single family homes and condos and trailers and apartments.


Speaker 1 (00:36:17) - But it's those resetting rates that blow up apartments despite the demand for people to wanna live there. So what this does, it makes banks more conservative with lower rent values being delivered, lower rent to value ratios also coming on the way. I would expect more of that ratcheting down. And for more people wanting to refi from a variable rate to a fixed rate, you know those syndicators they have got to put cash in in order to meet that lower loan to value ceiling will well capitalize syndicators. They can do that and others can't. Syndicators might very well be asking for capital calls from their investors then for their investors to help fund that cash in refi to keep those deals alive. The timeline for when you should expect a lot of this activity are from the peak 2021 and early 2022 deals that had short-term debt on them.


Speaker 1 (00:37:17) - They are going to face resetting rates late this year and into 2024. You probably noticed that just beyond the halfway point in the chat with Ken. I pivoted from talking about problems to discussing opportunity and the opportunity being that others might sell a good apartment deal because they need the cash to get out of that deal so that they can go take those funds and perform a cash in refi and shore up one of their other deals and get that other deal into fixed rate debt. Most modern offices, you know, they simply cannot be adapted over to residential uses due to their wide and deep floor plates that restrict natural lighting to only the perimeters. And because of the overhauls required to run mechanical and electrical and plumbing to individual residential units in the rare office building where conversions are possible, that sort of thing is wildly encouraged by everyone, developers and brokers and all kinds of governmental bodies.


Speaker 1 (00:38:19) - In fact, there was recently a sale of a 150,000 square foot office building in Orange, California oranges between Anaheim and Santa Ana. It's sold for 22 and a half million dollars and it's planning to be converted from office to residential. But yeah, multi-family conversions like that, they just aren't common. And the full story about that from LoopNet is in the show notes for you today. We've been discussing the difference between one to four unit properties and five plus unit multi-family apartments today. The difference in lending is really what makes all the difference. So those larger apartments bought with variable rate debt, say one to three years ago, they are problematic where the one to four unit space instead stays shielded with long-term fixed interest rate debt. Next week here on the show, you're gonna meet our new investment coach at GRE Marketplace. You have heard this person on the show before. I'll introduce you next week. Yes, we're adding a second one to keep up with demand for you. Until then, I'm your host Keith Wein. Hold, don't quit, it's your daydream.


Speaker 4 (00:39:31) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial, or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests on their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 1 (00:39:59) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich


Direct download: GREepisode452_.mp3
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Did you expect to hear this about Black people? We have a discussion about equality in housing.

First, if you close your eyes and wake up in 10 years, where do you want to find yourself? I explore.

For some reason, investors want to time the real estate market, yet they dollar cost average into stocks. 

1% down payment mortgages are here.

Learn about the latest AI development. The maker of ChatGPT is developing “Worldcoin”. It would verify if you’re human by scanning your eyeballs. 

Finally, there’s a long history of racial discrimination in both society and housing.

The Fair Housing Act—part of the Civil Rights Act of 1968—helped break down discrimination.

The Fair Housing Act protects people from discrimination on the basis of race, religion, national origin, sex, handicap, and family status when they are renting or buying a home, getting a mortgage, or seeking housing financial assistance.

Learn the difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. The latter is difficult to administer.

Providing equal opportunity in housing is not just the law. It’s the right thing to do. I explain why it actually benefits you.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

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Complete transcript:


Welcome to GRE! I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. 


If you close your eyes and wake up in 10 years… where do you REALLY want to be? 1% down payment mortgages are here, profound AI impacts in your life…


Then, some contentious and even volatile discussion about racial discrimination and Black people… in housing. You’ll get my opinion on equality of opportunity. Today, on Get Rich Education.



Welcome to GRE! From Allentown, PA to Glen Allen, VA and across 188 nations worldwide, I’m Keith Weinhold and this is Episode 451 of Get Rich Education… where we don’t live below our means. We grow our means. 


If you’re being told that you’re crazy or that things aren’t going to work out… you know… hearing that right there can actually be a prerequisite to you being successful. 


Are people raising their eyebrows at what you’re doing? 


Yeah that could actually be some positive feedback on your direction, as long as your head tells you that it’s right and your gut backs it up. 


Don’t trade away your authenticity for approval.


Look, if you close your eyes and wake up in 10 years, what do you want to see when you open your eyes? Awards for work? 


I doubt it. Or is it kids, family and relationship-oriented? 


Or is it, invisible footprints that you’ve left behind all over earth because you traveled or explored that much? 


You DID raft the Grand Canyon, visit the Taj Mahal, see the Eiffel Tower, or dive the Great Barrier Reef?


Yeah, it’s probably those types of things.


Well then, why are you putting 90% of your effort into career-oriented stuff… if that doesn’t help you achieve that goal 10 years from now? 


That’s a better set of questions for you to ask yourself.


That’s why we talk about generating residual income when you’re actually young enough to enjoy it here.


Rich people play the money game to win - that’s what we do here. While most people play the money game not to lose.


Real estate is not always easy. It’s not OVERNIGHT wealth, you’ll have your problems. But it can be amazing when you have a strategy and stick to it.


If you want me to make your financial life better in 30 days, maybe I can in some cases but that’s really not what we’re doing here, probably not even in a few months.


But in a few years… yes, definitely.


And I think it helps to remember something simple. The only place that you get money is from other people.


All your life, the only way that dollars have come into your hands or into your bank account is because it came.. from other people.


For many, that’s just one person - one employer that the money comes from.


With each rental property that you add, that is one more person that is paying you…


… that’s of tangible benefit to you in a world where the only place that you get money is from other people. 


Now, as we dip into the mechanics about how to achieve that…


What would be different if you HADN’T taken action in RE?


Now, I don’t know what it is, but for some reason, people are trained to TIME THE MARKET in RE. 


Yet people might put 10% of their salary - up to $22,500 is allowed this year - $30K if you’re over 50. They put that in their 401(k) - dollar-cost averaging - which is NOT timing the market.


I don’t know why that is. Why some people are predisposed to time the market in RE but yet they DCA in stocks - which is the opposite of timing the market.


Maybe it’s the cost of the property?


Treat RE the same way - DCA there too. Keep adding 1 or 2 a year or whatever you can.


When you consider 401(k)’s low returns and low liquidity, you might not even be putting money into it anymore.


You’ve got the wherewithal to know that very dollar you lock in a 401(k) is a dollar that can’t use OPM.


And it gets even worse. 


Because with a 401(k), you are HOPING TO DIE before the money runs out. What kind of a retirement plan or life plan is that?


Doesn’t sound like diving the Great Barrier Reef to me. Ha!


Rocket Mortgage introduced a new 1% down home loan program. This is a new product for them. But some people to think it’s the first. 


It’s not the first. It comes on the heels of rival United Wholesale Mortgage rolling out a similar program.


But this particular program is expected to reach a lot of people.


And here’s the thing. It also eliminates the monthly mortgage insurance fee. It deletes monthly PMI.


Now, even if we’re just talking about primary residences here, this affects you in the rental property market. I’ll tell you why in a moment. 


But with this 1% down payment program, a buyer using this program who’s purchasing a single-family home, well, their income can be no more than 80% of their area’s median income…


… they are only required to make a down payment of 1% of the purchase price. 


Then the lender covers the remaining 2% needed to reach the required 3% threshold for conventional loans.


So it’s not only going to reduce upfront costs, but that monthly mortgage insurance fee for the borrower is gone, which is typically a few hundred dollars a month…

That what they had to pay traditionally, if the buyer puts less than 20% down on their purchase. That’s going to help affordability.

So with 3% down being reduced to 1% down, then a homebuyer of a $250,000 home would only need a $2,500 down payment instead of $7,500.

Now, strict underwriting guidelines are still in place - you need income and credit and assets.

There aren’t really as many mortgage borrowers that put 20% down on a home as you might think. In fact, the average new purchase down payment amount in America is only between 6 and 7%.

But this 1% option, which it’s estimated that 90 million Americans will qualify for - over the long-term, that is just going to increase the available pool of buyers, of course, because more people that were on the edge of affordability can now qualify.

Now, in a normal market, a few of your tenants that were on the brink of qualification might be able to run off - and buy.

But you’ve still got those erstwhile strict underwriting guidelines and there’s still just such a lack of supply of this entry-level housing - like I updated you on last week.

You can’t move into what doesn’t exist. So this could create some tenant attrition, but it should be pretty limited for those reasons.


But, yeah, with this larger pool of buyers that now qualify, that puts more upward pressure on property prices. 


When you make any good or any commodity MORE affordable in the short-term like this, with more buyers & more bidders, it makes that much LESS affordable long-term because that competition pushes prices up.


It’s just like decades ago, as soon as financial assistance came to the college enrollment world with Stafford loans and Pell grants and all that stuff, what did it do?


More people could afford to PAY MORE with more & better loan types and that made college costs skyrocket.


The same effect is happening here when you lower down payment requirements to just 1%. 


Though, that factor alone shouldn’t make home prices skyrocket. They shouldn’t shoot up. But it’s just another tailwind on upward price momentum.


Typically when a tech CEO goes in front of a Senate committee, it gets embarrassing. Like, they end up explaining how to use email. 

OK, Senate committees are not known for being tech savvy. 

Not so a couple weeks ago, when Sam Altman, CEO of ChatGPT-maker OpenAI, testified on Capitol Hill on the future of AI and how the field should be regulated.

Now Sam Altman has a lot more going on than just ChatGPT. It’s possible that he’s the future wealthiest man in the world.

Now, this is where it gets scary.

He’s about to secure a $100 million funding round for an eye scan-accessible global cryptocurrency project, Worldcoin. That’s what the Financial Times told us.

Worldcoin is not totally unrelated to his signature project. The company’s goal is to verify whether users are human by scanning their irises to disburse universal basic income… to workers displaced by AI.

Now, I’ve explained before how technology actually creates jobs, not destroys them. 

But the hearing continued with a discussion of the dangers of an unpredictable, evolving technology that can generate and spread misleading information without us even realizing it’s fake- like those famous fake images of the Pope in a puffer jacket or Trump running from police.

Well, for his cryptocurrency, Worldcoin, Sam Altman has already released a World App crypto wallet that can be downloaded to your mobile phone. And he’s got big plans for Worldcoin as the first-ever cryptocurrency to be held by every person on the planet.


It runs on the Ethereum blockchain. You don’t need to know what that means. In practical terms, Worldcoin will look (and trade) a lot like the cryptocurrencies that you’re already familiar with. So in that regard, Worldcoin isn’t breaking any new ground.


What makes Worldcoin stand out is the fact that it has aspirations to be both a cryptocurrency and a global identification system. With a tag line of "the global economy belongs to everyone," Sam Altman plans to distribute Worldcoin tokens to every single human on planet Earth.


And this is where things get really creepy. To pick up your free Worldcoin crypto token and sign up for a Worldcoin ID, you will need to give Sam Altman a scan of your eyeballs. 


Yes, you heard that right -- Worldcoin has created a proprietary iris-scanning tool known as the Orb. Once you've had your eyeballs scanned with the Orb, you're good to go. 


Altman says this step is necessary to verify that you are a real human and is not meant to be an invasion of your privacy. He won't even ask you for your name.


Yeah… I don’t know if people are going to go for that, especially Americans. Americans are more suspicious and have more resistance to authority than most places. 


We’ll see what develops with WorldCoin but expect to hear more about Sam Altman.


If you want more real estate education, your source is


For actually physical property addresses conducive to financial freedom, create one login one time like thousands of others have. You can get started there at


More straight ahead, including a discussion and some contention about racism. I’m Keith Weinhold. You’re listening to Get Rich Education.  



Welcome back to GRE. I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. As we’re about to get to racism, now, first… 


It's no secret that I prefer investing directly in single-family rental homes and apartment buildings.


But when I look for real estate investments that are even more passive than turnkey...


... I just thought you might like to know that I personally invest my own money through a company called Freedom Family Investments.


Right from the beginning, they’ve always provided me with exactly their stated return, paid on time.


You might wonder, what makes their funds any better than, say, a Wall Street REIT or a 401(k)? Well, for starters… 

  • It's being paid passive cash flow today, not when I'm age 65+.

  • And Tax benefits that offset W-2 job income and capital gains. This part itself can be life-changing.

It might be hard to rake in as much money as Taylor Swift's Eras Tour when you're young enough to enjoy it. But this can get you closer.


The fund invests in real estate projects that make an impact. So consider becoming an insider along with me.


We get preferred returns of 10% to 12%. That means we get paid first. Cash flow is paid quarterly.


You can join us with as little as $50K. It is for accredited investors only.


Freedom Family Investments they ARE THE experienced partner on the most PASSIVE portion of my real estate holdings.


If this sounds interesting, text FAMILY to 66866 and ask about the Real Estate Insider Fund.


Again, text FAMILY to 66866


Let’s discuss racism and discrimination in America.


It’s a topic that I think some people don’t want to discuss. But I will today, because, here we are, Episode 451 and it’s the first time.


This was recently published on our Get Rich Education YouTube Channel, so expect some sound effects as we’re about to play this for you here.


The first voice that you hear is 60 Minutes interviewer Mike Wallace with Morgan Freeman, then Denzel Washington, and finally, Dr. Jordan Peterson. 


This is about 10 minutes in length, and then I’ll come back to wrap it up for you.




We’ll end it there. If you’d like to see more, check that out on our Get Rich Education YouTube Channel.


I’ll tell ya. Practicing equanimity, it was kinda difficult for me to discuss a sensitive topic. I’m not sure if you can tell in the video, but my forehead is sweating by the end of it.


The least that you need to know is that 1968's Civil Rights Act includes the Fair Housing Act.


This is a piece of landmark legislation is something that any citizen should know the basics about, and even moreso for a real estate investor.


The Fair Housing Act protects people from discrimination on the basis of race, religion, national origin, sex, handicap, and family status...


...when they are renting or buying a home, getting a mortgage, or seeking housing financial assistance. 


So it’s not just when you’re renting to someone, it’s when you’re lending to someone.


You shouldn't steer your advertising in an exclusionary way. Even terms like "cozy bachelor pad" or "ideal for young couples" should be avoided.


And equal opportunity is simply better for you as a landlord.


Say that you excluded a rental applicant group that comprised 30% of the population.


Then your available renter pool would shrink by that amount, reducing your income potential, reducing your occupancy rate, and reducing your tenant quality. So keep that in mind.


Next week here on the show we are talking about some big problems and really… the toxicity in the apartment market, the commercial real estate market… and how 2022’s sudden spike in interest rates is causing syndications to fail. 


Apartment building owners are getting foreclosed on. More of that is coming as their VARIABLE interest rate debt resets to WAY higher levels.


How bad is it going to get? What are you supposed to do as an investor if you’re IN a syndication? What’s it look like if you’re a real estate syndicator yourself?


Who is safe and who is going to go… under?


All that and more will be answered next week when Ken McElroy returns to the show here with us. 


I really appreciate you being here this week. 


But as always, you weren’t here for me, you were here for you. I’m Keith Weinhold. DQYD!


Direct download: GREepisode451b_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

Get a 4.75% mortgage rate or 100% financing on new-build Florida income property. Start here.

If I gave you $10M, learn why that probably wouldn’t even help you.

We revisit how “Real Estate Pays 5 Ways”, a concept that I coined right here on the show in May 2015.

Some think real estate pays three, four, or six ways. I revisit why there are exactly five.

Real estate has many paradoxical relationships. I explore.

Americans are living in homes longer than ever, now a duration of 10 years, 8 months.

The active supply of available housing dropped again.

Get an update on the gambling industry. A major sports gambling platform has offered to advertise with us.

Take my free real estate video course right here

Zillow expects US home values to rise 4.8% from April 2023 to April 2024. 

Months of available housing supply is currently 2.7 per Redfin.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Active Supply of Available Homes:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

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Complete transcript:


Welcome to GRE! I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. If you were gifted $10M right now, why that very well wouldn’t help you at all.


Learn a fresh take on how Real Estate Pays 5 Ways at the same time. A housing market update with perennially sagging inventory supply amounts and more outlooks for stronger home price appreciation than many expected. Today, on Get Rich Education.


Welcome to GRE! 


From Montevideo, Uruguay to Montecito, CA and across 188 nations worldwide, you’re listening to one of the longest-running and most listened-to shows on real estate… the voice of real estate investing since 2014. I’m your host and my name is Keith Weinhold.


How would you like it if I gave you $1M?


You know what? That’s not enough to make my point. Make it $10M. I adjusted for inflation - ha! How much would you like it if I gave you $10M? How would that feel?


But what if it comes with this one condition.


What if I told you that I’ll give you the $10M, but you are not waking up tomorrow? 


Not waking up tomorrow? No way!


Now you know that waking up tomorrow is worth more than $10M.


This is how you know that your time and your life are worth infinitely more than any dollar amount.


Hmmm… if your time is so valuable. Then why did you check Instagram 15 times yesterday to see who viewed your Stories? Ha!


Why are you spending time with your AI girlfriend? Ha!


Get Rich Education is ultimately about living a rich LIFE - whatever that means to you.


And we do approach that from the financial perspective here. Money does matter… because leverage, cash flow, and inflation-profiting enable you to BUY time.


We’re really one of the few investing platforms… this show is one of the few places with the audacity to tell you that - sure, a little delayed gratification is good… but the risk of too much delayed gratification is DENIED gratification.


Denied gratification is a terrible investing risk that most people either don’t give enough weight to - or don’t factor in at all.


And getting a $10M windfall is not as great as it sounds either. 


History shows that the $25M Lottery winner quickly loses their money. Why does that happen? 

Because it seemed like it was effortless to get the windfall, and because they don't know how to handle an amount like that. 

It’s really similar to a capital gains-centric investor that gets a windfall. 

See, cash flow investors like you & I - we can be more measured because your income stream is metered out over time. That’s why you are less likely to be irrational with your gains.



Now, I touched on some of those ways that you’re paid in real estate investing. 


Real Estate Pays you 5 Ways™ simultaneously. That’s a concept that I coined right here on the GRE podcast. We since went on to have it trademarked.


Do you know when I first introduced that concept right here on the show - the month & year? 


And I’ve since gone on to do a lot with “Real Estate Pays 5 Ways” to help other audiences understand real estate’s five distinct profit sources.


Well, I had someone on Team GRE here do some digging into some of our legacy shows - our past episodes… because I wanted to know when I first said it… and it was apparently in May of 2015, so 8 years ago that I introduced it.


Since then, many other thought leaders have gone on to cite the phrase. Someone other than me even wrote a book on it. And that doesn’t bother me at all. I’d rather that other people and readers get good ideas. That’s more important than getting the credit.


Of course, c’mon, you can recite these 5 now like they’re the Pledge Of Allegiance or something. 


This is as automatic as the Lord’s Prayer is for Christians. The five are:

  • Appreciation

  • Cash Flow

  • Your return on Amortization and

  • Tax Benefits and finally

  • Inflation-Profiting

But now, let’s dissect this frog here a little. Why five ways? Why not another number, like real estate pays four ways or six ways?


It is five. There are no more or less. Each of the five are a distinct benefit.


A common flawed case that Real Estate Pays 4 Ways is that most real estate teachers omit the Inflation-Profiting benefit on the long-term fixed interest rate debt.


Any GRE devotee knows that with 5% inflation on $1M in debt, you only owe the bank $950K of inflation-adjusted debt after year one, $900K after year two, etc. (And in the meantime, the tenant pays all of your mortgage interest.)


Some that make the 4 Ways case question the Tax Benefit. Could the tax benefit really be considered a profit source, or is it just a deal sweetener?


It's a profit source.


Outside the real estate world, to obtain a tax write-off, you must have a real expense backed up with receipts, like building a new computer equipment or buying a new farm tractor.


Instead, the magic of real estate tax depreciation says that you can just write off 3.6% of the improved property value each year just for doing... nothing all year. No improvements necessary.


It's a phantom write-off, yet legitimate to the IRS.


Then the 1031 Exchange means you can endlessly defer all of your federal capital gains tax for your... entire life.


Yes, it's one of the few places in life where procrastination actually pays.


I've even heard some say that they're a fan of GRE's Real Estate Pays 5 Ways™, but they've discovered a sixth.


This often involves an event that's either unlikely or falls into one of the existing 5 Ways.


For example, "My appraisal value exceeded the contract price. I’m buying it for $320K, but the appraisal is $340K. I got $20K in instant equity. See, I was paid a 6th way."




I mean, good for you, $20K of instant equity is a nice sweetener - that’s a $20K credit in your net worth column that you received the moment you opened up that appraisal e-mail from your lender and saw it. Nice!


But an appraised value that exceeds the purchase price is not COMMON enough to be expected… and the 5 Ways are.


Also, you can make the case that "instant equity" is covered in the first way you're paid, Appreciation.


The reason that we invest in real estate is because there's virtually no other vehicle in the world where you can expect to be paid five ways at the same time.


That’s a foundational principle - it’s a core concept here at GRE. 


It’s why we do what we do. It answers the compelling “why” for real estate better than any answer there is…


…and that’s why anything less than a 20 to 25% combined return when you add up all five ways is actually disappointing - and that’s done with low risk - which is paradoxical almost anywhere else in the entire investing world. 


If you haven’t yet, take my free “Real Estate Pays 5 Ways” course in order to really understand each of your five distinct profit sources, where they come from, and how that all fits together. 


It’s at The free “Real Estate Pays 5 Ways” short course is free at 


Let’s talk about real estate trends.


You know, real estate investing has a lot of relationships that you just wouldn’t expect. 


Part of that is because it intersects with the economy. Economies are complex and you get these relationships that are counterintuitive. 


For example, in a recession, mortgage rates and all interest rates tend to fall, not rise. 


Another exhibit is how debt BUILDS wealth with prudent leverage.


Another one that I’ve explained extensively here and the show and elsewhere is that higher mortgage rates correlate with higher home prices - not lower ones. That throws nearly everyone off.


Some physical real estate trends have been counterintuitive.


About 30 years ago in America - the 1990s - a new trend was fueled that everyone wanted to have a big kitchen.


New homes were often built with a big, fancy kitchen in the center of the home. Open floor concept - no galley kitchens anymore. That began back then.


And this was really the advent of - at the time - what we considered luxury amenities like granite and quartz kitchen countertops. 


Anymore, that’s become standard. Even our build-to-rent providers at GRE Marketplace often have new granite countertops in rentals. 


But the paradox here is the assumption that a big emphasis on kitchens would mean that more people would start cooking at home. 


Oh, no. Just the opposite, in the last 30 years, despite the big kitchens, more people eat out at restaurants and fewer people eat at home. Another real estate paradox.


Another counterintuition was the pandemic. Society locked down, people lost their jobs and you think that there are going to be mass foreclosures because with no job, no one can afford their mortgage payment.


People thought the pandemic will cripple the housing market. Oh, it was just the opposite. That created a housing boom. Everyone wanted their space. Another paradox.


Remember here on the show, shortly after Biden was elected, I told you that this administration - for better or for worse - will not let people lose their homes. 


Then we had high inflation on the heels of the pandemic. That was bad for consumers and good for real estate.


But high inflation is supposed to mean that bitcoin and gold would surge. Well, another paradox, that brought crypto winter, and gold did nothing in high inflation, until more recently here.


Rather than high delinquency rates we’ve got low delinquency rates. In fact, the mortgage delinquency rate has been steadily falling for almost 3 years now. That’s because of strong borrowers and tough lending standards.


Now, another real estate investing trend, though there’s nothing paradoxical here, is mortgage rate resets. 


Here in the US, on 1-4 unit rental properties, you’re in great shape, whether you locked in your interest rate at 3% or 7% - the thing is that you have a steady payment… and on an inflation-adjusted basis, your same monthly payment amount goes DOWN over time - it’s a tailwind to your personal finances.


Inflation cannot touch your steady, locked-in P & I payment.


But many Canadians are up for renewal with their 5-year fixed rate, 25-year amorts. 


Yeah, just across the border in Canada, they don’t have these 30-year fixed rate amortizing loans. 


Their rate resets every five years.


One Canadian homeowner that I talked to, he doesn’t live in that posh of a home in Ontario, it’s just a little above the median housing price. 


His family’s loan terms are about to reset on the primary residence and it’s expected to increase their monthly payment by $1,280 / mo.


How would you feel if that happened to you overnight? It’s a nuisance at best. It might even crimp your quality of life - or worse.


That can’t really happen to you in the US. 


Having a 30-year FRM is like you having rent control as a tenant. 


In coastal areas, some tenants that have a rent control deal - New York, California, Oregon - they want to live in their home for decades under rent control because there’s a ceiling on their rent. Move out of their unit - lose the deal and they’d have to reset somewhere else.


It’s the same with you as an American homeowner or REI in the 1-to-4 unit space. Your P&I price cannot rise. 


And, I’ve talked about the interest rate lock-in effect before, constraining the housing supply. 


Get this. Just last week, First American Title Company informed us that the average resident duration in a home hit a record high. 


Amongst this lower intrinsic mobility rate, interest rate lock-in effect, and other societal trends, the average resident duration in a primary home in now 10 years, 8 months. 


Lower mobility. Studies show that people are holding onto their cars longer than ever, and people aren’t parting with their real estate either.


So, then, with fewer properties coming to market, let's update the available supply of homes. 


This is pulling from the same set of stats that I’ve been citing for years, in order to be consistent. Check this out. This is the FRED Housing Inventory - the Active Listing Count of Available US homes.


Remember, historically, it's 1-and-a-half to 2 million units available. In 2016 it was still 1-and-a-half million.


Then in April of 2020 it dipped below 1 million and fell sharply from there - which I’ve famously called this era’s housing crash. 


It was a housing SUPPLY crash - which hedges against a price crash.


It fell to as low as 435,000 a year later in mid-2021. Gosh, under a half million.


It’s rebounded as builders know that they need to build more homes. Six months ago it got up to 750,000 available homes - which is still less than half of what 

America needs.


And now, today, did the supply get up toward at least 1 million yet? No. 


It has dropped back the other way to just 563,000. This astounding dearth of housing supply - it’s a condition that we could very well be in for over a decade.


This scarce supply is a long-term American condition. Yes, it’s good for your real estate values - both present and future. But it is a problem too. It’s a contributor to homelessness!


The Covid home improvement boom is officially over. So says Home Depot. They posted a revenue drop in the first quarter and warned that annual sales would decline in 2023 for the first time in 14 years. 


Home Depot said that shoppers are now holding off on the big-ticket purchases they made during the pandemic and are choosing to break up larger projects—like remodeling a bathroom—into smaller, bite-sized pieces.


There’s a fascinating new study from a bipartisan think tank shows that everyone wants to LIVE ALONE.


That’s what Business Insider just reported on. Now, of course, the term “everyone” is an exaggeration.


But Statista and Our World In Data tells us that - get this - this is the number of SINGLE-PERSON households in the US - people living alone.


Back in 1960, that figure was just a paltry 13%.


By 1970, 17% of households were people were living alone.


Every ten years, that percent crept up to 23, 25, then 26%. By 2010 it hit 27% and by 2022 it hit 29%.


Now, you can’t think that’s good for society - to have all these single-person households. Almost 3 in 10 living alone. C’mon. Find a good spouse.


But in any case, that’s good for you as a REI, when, say, 10 people live amongst 5 homes rather than 3 homes - absorbing all that housing supply and keeping it scarce.  


Even if the US population stayed the same, there’s more home demand - with that trend.


Of course, the US population is growing, though really slowly, probably just a few tenths of 1% this year.


But because of all the Millennials and the embedded “Work From Anywhere” trend, housing demand is pretty strong.


The recent rental housing demand and rent boom came almost entirely due to a surge in household formation -- young adults leaving the nest and roommates decoupling to get their own space... especially in urban areas.


People working from home want more space (without a roommate) AND are willing to pay more for it -- and able -- to pay more for it.


So if you're bullish on work-from-home remaining the norm for at least a chunk of the population (and I am), you should be bullish on the rental demand outlook. 


And this has really revitalized America’s SUBURBS - that’s the area where you find that space.


The WFH-fueled rise of the suburbs is a wake-up call to cities, where, in the case of NYC, 26 Empire State Buildings’ worth of office space now sits empty. 

The typical office worker is spending $2,000–$4,600 less annually in city centers. Because even if they GO to the city to work, they might only do that 2 days a week now - not 5.

I’ve got more for you straight ahead, including a new forecast on how much home prices are expected to rise this year.


Again, check out my free video course if you haven’t “Real Estate Pays 5 Ways”. Get it at


I’m Keith Weinhold. You’re listening to Get Rich Education.


Yeah, big thanks to this week’s show sponsors. I’m only bringing you those places that will bring real value to your life.


Now, here at GRE, I recently read an offer that one of these major sports gambling platforms sent us. They want to advertise on the show here. 


Do you want to hear sports gambling ads on GRE? I’ve got an opinion about that, that I’ll share with you shortly.

Gambling is not the same as investing. 


If you’re wondering why you’re hearing more about gambling, especially sports gambling than you had just a few years ago, well…


Now, just last week, it was FIVE years ago that the Supreme Court lifted a federal ban on sports gambling in the US. 


That spawned a multibillion-dollar industry that’s transformed how Americans watch, talk about, and experience sports.


Americans bet $95B on sports in legal jurisdictions with consumer protections last year. That’s more money than the amount spent on ride sharing, coffee, or streaming… and you can bet that the off-the-books gambling number, if added in, would make that WAY higher.

Two sports betting companies, DraftKings and FanDuel, control 71% of the US market, per gambling analytics firm Eilers & Krejcik. Gosh, that’s almost a duopoly right there.

But despite that, these companies have struggled to turn a profit. FanDuel recorded its first quarterly profit just last year, and DraftKings has YET to report a profitable quarter. Well, I’ll just tell ya, it’s one of those two big companies that inquired about advertising on GRE.

Of the 50 states, the number is 33 that allow it. That’s 2/3rd of the nation that has legal sports betting (Washington, DC, has it too). Another four states have legalized sports wagering, but don’t have any sportsbooks operating yet.

Interestingly, the three most-populous US states—California, Texas, and Florida—have not legalized sports gambling. And they account for 26% of all teams in the major North American pro leagues.

The number of women joining sportsbook apps jumped 45% last year, marking the third straight year that new women users exceeded men. Hmmm. I guess that’s the growth market there.

My inclination to have gambling advertising and associating with these companies is NOT to do it… not to accept that advertising income.

I don’t see how that’s serving you. This feels like a conflict in my gut and in my heart.

Gambling is sort of the opposite of investing for a stable rental income stream. 

I mean, either way, I guess you’re putting your money at stake. But that’s about the closest common ground I can find. 

At least at this time… and probably all-time, it’s a “no” for gambling content here.

That’s not any sort of moral judgment on the activity at all. I mean, gosh, as a teenager, I was really into sports gambling, but it was the informal kind. My friend & I each lay a $10 bill next to the TV - Phillies vs. Mets. Winner gets the $20 bucks.

So, my inclination is a pretty easy “no”.

Hook up with our sponsors - they support GRE. That’s Ridge Lending Group, offering income property loans nationwide.

JWB Real Estate Capital - if you want performing income property, JWB really has Jacksonville, FL sewn up & locked down. They do one thing and do it well.

Then, Freedom Family Investments. Get started with them for real estate funds that are ultra-low hassle. Text “FAMILY” to 66866. 

Where will the next ten years take you & I on the show here? I would love to be along for the ride with you. I hope that you’ll be here with me.


Let me just take a moment to remind you that I’m grateful to have such a large, loyal audience to… well, listen to the words that I say every week. Thank you for your support.


This show has almost reached the 5 million download mark. I’ve been shown that it’s between 4.8 and 4.9 million downloads now. I’m genuinely honored and a little humbled about that even. 


Let’s listen in to this 3+ minute CNBC clip. This is Lawrence Yun, Chief Economist at the NAR - the National Association of Realtors talking about the housing market just last week. 


Now, a little context here - historically, the NAR has tended to give these dominantly sunny side-up, glowing, everything is always good & getting better kind of remarks on the housing market.


But I’ve been listening to the NAR’s Lawrence Yun for quite a while and think he’s been rather balanced. 


Here, he discusses how real estate sales volume is down - which has a lot to do with low supply, that mortgage rates are steady, and that prices are slowly rising in most parts of the nation.


[OK, Vedran. Here’s where we play the insert.]


0:09-3:42 First words to keep are: “Lawrence Yun…” Last words to keep are: “... half of the country.”


Now, Lawrence Yun did go on to say that he thinks that the Fed should lower interest rates by a half point, and more. 


Let us know if you’d like us to invite Lawrence Yun onto the show. As always, you can leave your suggestions, questions, or any comments about the Get Rich Education podcast or any of our other platforms at our Contact center at:


When it comes to national HPA, just last week, we learned that Zillow revised its home price outlook upward.


Between April 2023 and April 2024, Zillow expects home US home values to rise 4.8%.


You’ve got more signs that more & more American markets are being considered a seller’s market rather than a buyer’s market, which tilts toward price appreciation, though I still think pretty moderate price appreciation this year. 


CNN recently published an article where they even posited the question: “Are Bidding Wars Back?” Yes, they are in a few markets.  


Another measure of housing supply is the MONTHS of available supply. I think you know that 6 to 7 months of inventory is considered a balanced supply & demand market.


If it gets up to 10 months of supply, you tend to see little or no HPA. 


Well, indicative of the low housing supply, we hit a winter high of 4-and-a-half months of supply. 


And today, it’s down to just 2.7 months per Redfin. 2.7 months. That’s just another sign that demand is outpacing supply.


Then, among those entry-level homes, like the NAR’s Lawrence Yun eluded to, they’re even harder to find… and they’re the ones that make the best rentals. 


How hard are these to find? I mean, in some markets this can be even more rare than finding a true friend? Ha!


Is it as rare as the Hope Diamond? Or perhaps a Honus Wagner baseball card? Ha!


Well, the good news is that we actually have the inventory that you want at GRE Marketplace.


Besides that, we actually have something that you really like and that is - mortgage rate relief to help you with your cash flow. 


Purchase rates have been hovering around 6 1/2% lately. That’s the OO rate, so for rentals, it could be 7%+.


Well, how about rolling back the hands of time? Through our great relationships here and our free investment coaching, you have access to 4.75% interest rates on investment property - and many of these are new-builds in path-of-progress Florida.


Yes, our free coaching will get you the 4.75% mortgage interest rate, they’ll even help write the sales contract for you if you’re new to this, walk you through the property inspection, the property condition, the appraisal. 


Yes, a 4.75% interest rate… today, from these homebuilder buydowns. I don’t know how much longer that can last. 


To be clear, you’re not buying an income property FROM us. You’re buying it with our help and our connections. It is all free to you. This is educational support for you.


In fact, our coaching support like this through our sole investment coach, Naresh is becoming so popular, that I can announce that we soon plan to add a second investment coach. Yes! A new one.


And interestingly, you have heard of this soon-to-be second investment coach because they’ve been a guest on the show here a number of times. Yeah, we’ll make that introduction on a future show. You’ll find THAT interesting.


But, our Investment Coach, Naresh, does have some slots open to talk with you and help you out. A lot of the best deals currently with these 4.75% rates are with new-build Florida duplexes and fourplexes. 


You can use them for rental SFHs too. Last I checked, the deals were a little better on the duplexes and fourplexes.


You probably thought that Sub-6 and sub-5 mortgage rates are about as unlikely to make a sudden comeback as AOL or Myspace, but we’ve got them here now. 


Now, that 4.75% is just one of two options that we have with some Build-To-Rent builders that are fairly motivated. So to review the first one fully… you can get a


  • 4.75% interest rate with a 25% down payment

  • 1 year of free property management and

  • $1,000 off closing costs per deal

That’s one. Or, option 2 is:

  • Zero down payment - yes, 100% financing

  • 2 years free property management

  • $1,000 off closing costs per deal

  • Negotiable price, open to offers

They are the two options. 

It’s rarely more attractive than this. If you hear this in a few weeks, or perhaps months, I doubt that these options will be there any longer.


So I’ll close with something actionable that can really help you now. 


If you want to do it yourself, that’s fine, like thousands of others have, get a selection of income property - despite this national dearth of supply at


Or, like I said, right now, it’s really helpful to connect with an experienced GRE Investment Coach - it’s free - our coach’s name is Naresh - for those 4.75% interest rates or zero down program - whatever’s best for you… you can do all that at once at


Until next week, I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. DQYD!


Direct download: GREepisode450_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

Are you living the life that you were created to live? I explore. 

People have harbored unfounded real estate fears for years. Here they were:

2012: Shadow inventory

2013: Boomers downsizing

2014: Rates spike

2015: PMI recession

2016: Vacant units

2017: Home prices above pre-GFC peak

2018: 5% mortgage rates

2019: Recession?

2020: Pandemic

2021: Forbearance crisis

2022: Rising rates

2023: Recession

US houses prices are heading up this spring. The latest FHFA’s Monthly Housing Report shows 4% national home price appreciation.

We explore apartment reputation scores. This is a great proxy for what’s happened in housing the past three years.

As an investor, you have a low “loss to purchase” with your tenants. It’s difficult for them to buy their first home.

I discuss 12 Ways that you can raise the rent and increase the value of your property.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:


Credit to


Welcome to GRE! I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. We get clear together - Are you truly living the life that you were created to live?


A housing market update with some perspective that can totally shift your real estate thought paradigm. 


Then, 12 Actionable Ways that you can raise the rent and add value to your property. Today, on Get Rich Education.


Welcome to GRE! From Johannesburg, South Africa to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and across 188 nations worldwide, I’m Keith Weinhold and this is Get Rich Education.


Last night, people were losing sleep over money. At the same time, last night, you made money… as you slept.


Are you living the life that you were created to live?


Your big ideas, your grandiose hopes and ambitions that you promised yourself that you would follow through on someday… have they turned into fears?


Even ones that you had as a child - like to be an astronaut or a firefighter. Today, it might simply be that you would have quit your soul-sucking job by now.


Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs - how many are you fulfilling? All five? There are five levels. The base level are your…

What are you doing to be the most that you can be? 


With financial freedom, you can control your time and have a chance at living the life that you were created to live.


How do most people think of financial betterment? In a faulty way, like…


  • If you get your hair cut at home and brew your own coffee at home, you figure you could save 6 bucks a day.


  • Hey, Men’s Fast-Pitch Softball at the Moose Lodge is still free. Oh geez. So that’s why it’s your entertainment?


  • You could save a whopping $80 on flight tickets by adding an extra layover on your trip itinerary.


  • Or… it’s buy-one-get-one free week on Hillshire Farm brand bacon at the supermarket.


Alright, how do you know that all those things right there don’t move the meter in your life? It’s because, ask:


How many times would you have to do that activity - like add an unnecessary flight layover - in order to acquire wealth? 


None. It doesn’t apply. You could practically do that an INFINITE number of times and you wouldn’t acquire wealth to create the time to live the life you want.


But how many times would you need to add a flight layover in order to make you MISERABLE? There IS a number. There is a certain number.


Doing those trivial things only helps ensure that you stay at a soul-sucking job.


Because rather than taking your time - a zero-sum game - rather than HAVING your time engaged in expansionary activities, you were focused on contracting. 


You were focused on where there’s a low upside rather than activities that have an upside with no ceiling.


Another way to ask if the activity is expansionary and moving you toward financial freedom is: Did you overcome FEAR in fulfilling that task?


Yes, it’s an inconvenient truth that facing & overcoming fear is what makes you grow.


Did you overcome fear when you brewed coffee at home or got some stupid discount on grocery store bacon?


What are the activities you do that move you toward financial freedom - not debt-freedom - but financial freedom & overcome fear & grow.


That’s an activity like:


Making your first home a fourplex with an FHA loan… or repositioning your dead equity, like Caeli Ridge & I discussed here two weeks ago… or buying an income property across state lines… or learning how to become a savvy private lender… or finding out how to become an accredited investor.


Are you living the life that you were created to live?


Now you’ve got some examples, some milestones, and some checkpoints so that you’ll know if you’re either on the right trajectory - or hopefully - if you’ve been listening here long enough… you’re living that life… now.


Why would you live one more day of your life “below your means” than what’s absolutely necessary. That should only be a short-term life mode.


Don’t live below your means, grow your means.


Live the life that you were created to live.


But the major media channels stir up so much fear - and even niche ones - that it can often paralyze, even some clear thinkers.


Despite the fact that today’s real estate appreciation rates are quite normalized and modestly growing, some people still have unfounded fear over real estate.


And non-doers are always trying to time the market… and timing the market doesn’t work. 


Here’s what fearful permabears are concerned about. It’s always something in real estate. 


In 2012, it was “Shadow inventory”. Remember that? Never came to pass, just like most of this stuff.


In 2013, the fear was Boomers are downsizing


In 2014: Rates spike


In 2015, it was a PMI recession


In 2016, it was vacant units. Ha! A terrible miss.


In 2017, it was, look, nominal home prices are above the pre-GFC peak. Yeah, so what? They should be.


In 2018, it was 5% mortgage rates. That was the fear.


In 2019, I actually don’t remember what the fear was that year. That was a fairly uniform year but people stirred up fear about something in order to get clicks. Call it a recession.


In 2020, it was the pandemic


In 2021, it was fear of a forbearance crisis.


In 2022, the fear was rising mortgage rates will cause a housing price crash and there’s a collapse in sales volume.


In 2023, what’s the fear? Are we back to recession fears again? 


Gosh, people have been steadily forecasting that for 12-18 months now, it still isn’t here, and it still isn’t on the horizon either, as job growth numbers keep beating expectations. 


If you’re waiting to invest in the most proven investment of all-time - real estate, or even something else like gold or bitcoin or stocks - if you’re waiting until the uncertainty dissipates, then you’ll never be investing again for the rest of your life.


About the only certain thing in the investing world is persistent inflation and the fact that people are going to need a good place to live.


I invest in the certainties, not get paralyzed with uncertainty.


This way, we don’t get too caught up in the latest investing fad, often like stock investors do. 


In 2017, it was anything around “blockchain.”

In 2021, it was the “metaverse.”

In 2023, “AI” is the term that’s instigated a Pavlovian response from investors salivating over the potential hundreds of billions in value that could be unlocked by the new technology… until that gets oversold.

There IS some opportunity in some of those things, but as soon as people lose money in them, they revert back to principles.

In a lot of ways, we stick to principles here, even if some of them are countercultural principles - like FF beats DF.

Keep your debt & get more of it. More debt means you own more RE.


US house prices have stabilized and are heading up. They've gone from modest declines or steady prices… to modest growth in most regions.


That's the summary from my latest "light reading" duty—FHFA's Monthly Housing Report. It’s released every month.


Some highlights from the latest one, all stats through February, and with nominal pricing…

  • Every division east of the Mississippi is up 5% to 8% annually

  • The Pacific division, which was hurt most, saw a 3% decline

  • National home prices are up 4%

  • And this index covers 400+ American cities

Spring numbers will be factored in soon. Since it's property-buying season, appreciation rates will likely rise.


Like I've stated before and am becoming really somewhat known for talking about in the industry. In fact, just last week, I was in Arizona and shared this on Ken McElroy’s show - the housing crash is a 100% certainty. That's because it already happened. 


It was a housing supply crash three years ago, which prevented a price crash.


So then, let’s look at some of the best appreciating markets in the US here, just the quick, Top 10. 


And notice how widespread the national HPA is. It really just excludes the western third or western quarter of US states.


The market with the 10th most appreciation - and this is all YOY, through Q1 per the NAR:


Santa Fe, NM up 12%

9th is Hickory-Morganton, NC up 12%

8th is Appleton, WI up 12-and-a-half per cent

7th? Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis, WI. Up 14%.

I’m doing some rounding here.

6th is Oklahoma City, up 15%

Elmira, NY - hey I grew up near there - is up 15%. That’s 5th.


4th is Burlington, NC up 15% YOY

3rd is Warner-Robins, GA, up 16% 

2nd is Oshkosh-Neenah, WI at 17%

#1 in the nation is… the Kingsport-Bristol area, which spans Virginia & Tennessee. Up 19%


I’m going to discuss apartments in a minute. But they are the 10 US areas with the largest single-family home price increase annually.


In the Information Age, a bad reputation will follow you around like your cat, internet tracking cookies, and a song that you can't get out of your head.


Apartment reputation scores are a broad measure of renter satisfaction.


It's amazing to see how closely they track the macro trends that impact tenants and property managers (PMs).


What I’m referencing here is J Turner Research's Online Reputation Assessment scores from today, and going back to March 2020.


This is a very telling pattern here.


Spring - Summer 2020: COVID descends. Lockdowns are here. Reputation scores plummet. PMs struggle to rapidly adjust to a new era where renters live and work inside their units 24/7. Everyone started using Zoom. Maintenance techs could rarely even go inside units for repairs.


Entropy ran rampant. Parents didn't know what to do with their children. Fear reigned. Common spaces closed. Neither tenants nor PMs were happy.


Then, in the…


Fall 2020 - Summer 2021: This was the boom period for apartments. PMs have solved for the new era, adopting new technologies and new strategies. They also re-open amenity spaces and in-unit maintenance. 


Hey, foosball in the clubhouse is back. Apartment demand surges, and reputation scores go back up.


Late 2021: Apartment occupancy rates hit record highs. PMs again wrestle with on-site staffing shortages. Could ultra-low vacancy and still-robust leasing traffic put so much strain on property managers that reputation scores start to drop again?


Nope! Because in…


Early 2022: Reputation scores climb back up to new highs again. PMs once again adjust to the rapidly evolving climate, many leaning on early-to-mid phase adoption of centralization tech and management practices.


Mid - Late 2022: Apartment reputation scores inch back again. That’s when consumers saw peak inflation—including renewal rent increases. 


At the same time, demand (for all housing types, not just apartments) slowed down and you didn’t see the high rent growth that you had. This puts more strain on PMs.


Inflation hit everyone, with big price hikes in property insurance, taxes, maintenance, turnover, labor, and utilities.


Early 2023: Apartment reputation scores are on the rise again, hitting new highs. Consumer inflation is cooling, while vacancy rates and leasing traffic return to more normal levels.


Some semblance of normalcy has finally returned.


At the same time, new tech adopted in the pandemic era proves to have long-term benefits to both tenants and managers.


In recent years, PMs have focused on resident satisfaction, so it's no coincidence that reputation scores keep improving.


Now today, as an investor, changes are that you have a low LOSS TO PURCHASE.


What’s a “loss to purchase”. Your tenants are leaving to go buy something very often. 


You, as an investor in either single-family rentals or condos or apartments - you can retain residents right now because it’s so hard for them to go off and buy their own starter home.


Why’s that? Well, it’s not just the higher mortgage rates. It’s that fact coupled with the fact that credit availability is still tough. 


As you know, you need to have a lot of good documentation & income & assets to get a loan. That keeps your rent-paying tenant in place.


In 2005, we were in the opposite condition. Back then, tenants fled my units. I had a hard time retaining tenants in 2005. Why? 


Because it was so easy to get a loan, you could just lie about everything on a mortgage application and no one even checked the accuracy. Bloated appraisal values even came flying in.


That’s why my rental property tenants kept leaving. It seems like it was always to buy a first-time condo back in 2005.


Today, you can retain tenants. That’s your upside of today’s harder housing affordability and stringent lending requirements. 


So, in this normalizing housing era where tenants have to live in your rental unit longer - because they have no alternative - you can find the properties most conducive to this strategy where thousands of other have created a quick account - at our marketplace:


It’s not like a big box store. It’s more like an organic farmer’s market. That’s where the good stuff is. So, check back often for new inventory at


You’re listening to Episode 449 of the GRE Podcast… and of those 449, I think that two of them were quite good!




Coming up shortly, 12 ways for you to raise rent and add value to your property.


If you get value from the show, please tell a friend about the show. I’d really appreciate it. Share it on your social media.


More straight ahead. I’m Keith Weinhold. You’re listening to Get Rich Education.


Direct download: GREepisode449_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

The average millionaire has 7 income streams. We discuss 2 income streams today—ATMs and Car Washes.

They’re low touch, more passive than turnkey real estate investing.

With ATMs, is cash use on the decline? Not among the demographic they serve. We discuss the future of cash use.

Some ATM users pay a $3 surcharge to access a $20 bill. That’s why it's profitable.

You can buy a unit of five ATMs. They’ve provided a 26.1% cash-on-cash return and high tax advantages. It’s returned $2,262 per month.

Learn more about ATMs at:

Car wash profits are enhanced with a subscription model. Few on-site employees are needed. 

You can invest alongside a tech-forward car wash franchise, Tommy’s Express Car Wash.

The WSJ stated that no business other than car washes can create this much profit on a one acre lot.

As society changes, EV, gas-powered, and diesel cars must all go through the car wash.

ATMs and car washes demonstrate high operating margins and many tax advantages. You must be an accredited investor.

Learn more about car washes at:

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Learn more about ATMs:

Learn more about Car Wash investing:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at:

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:



Speaker 0 (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE! I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. It's been said that the average millionaire has seven different income streams. We're going to discuss two distinct income streams that you can add to your life today that lie on the periphery of real estate investing. They are low touch for you because they require little or no management. Today on Episode 448 of Get Rich Education.


Speaker 2 (00:00:29) - You are listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.


Speaker 0 (00:00:52) - Welcome to G R E from Altoona, PA to Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold. This is Get Rich Education. Well, you can't have just one income stream because that's entirely too close to zero. We're talking about two distinct income streams today. People really like the operator and his track record. In fact, he's a longtime friend of mine. We'll talk with him shortly next week. Here on the show, I'm gonna talk about the ways that you can raise the rent and add value to your property. But for today, besides the upside that gets many interested in these two income streams, most investments usually have pros and cons. So I'm gonna ask about the downside. In both, we're talking about the ability to add a couple thousand dollars to your residual income each month with the first of two income streams.


Speaker 0 (00:01:51) - ATMs, yes, automated teller machines. Remarkably, the operator has never missed the monthly distribution or the pro forma return target. What about the future use patterns of cash? Yes. Green dollar bills. We will discuss that. It seems as though ATMs just don't care when there's disruption and chaos in the marketplace. They just sit there, do their business and provide you with consistent monthly cash flow. We'll discuss exactly how much inflation, not a big deal to ATMs recession, they can deal with that. Pandemic ATMs breezed right through it. Is the use of cash in decline? Well, not with the demographic that ATMs serve. How about the political party in power? That just doesn't matter in fact, and perhaps is a little sad. The demographic that ATMs serve is one of the fastest growing in the United States to this group, cash is still the currency of choice. Some of them are unbanked or underbanked. First, we'll talk about ATMs then after that, another diverse income stream for you.


Speaker 0 (00:03:07) - What's it like to invest in ATMs and car washes and what's the direction of their future use patterns, for example, wouldn't cash use with ATMs B declining perhaps? Well, today's guest expert recently spoke about ATM and carwash investing at the Best Ever conference as alternative asset classes that can perform well over the next decade. And when he was finished speaking, there was a line formed at the back door waiting for him so that people could learn more. So settle in. Let's learn about what's happening. I'd like to welcome back onto the show, g r e, regular and super syndicator, Dave Zuck.


Speaker 3 (00:03:43) - Keith, thanks for having me back on your show. It's good to be back and I'm looking forward to having this discussion. I love it.


Speaker 0 (00:03:50) - Well, Dave, you know you've been here to discuss ATMs and car washes before, so we wanna get updates today, including what investor returns are like starting with ATMs. Really, that is a predominant thought about ATM investing today. It's that the use of this new technology like Apple Pay or coming cbd, CS, or even cryptocurrencies, are gonna cause cash use to decline. And I know that when you were here previously, we talked about year over year cash use and how that looks. So is that a question that you often get about just the use of cash that an at m spits out?


Speaker 3 (00:04:24) - Yeah, so one of the challenges to the ATM space in investor's minds in accredited investor's minds is, well, I don't use cash anymore. I'm guessing you don't use much cash anymore. I don't hardly ever use cash, right? And so that must mean that other people aren't using cash. That is the same as an investor thinking, well, I don't live in a C-class apartment building, so I guess nobody invests in C-class apartment buildings, right? So one of the things yes, is cash use in decline. The answer is yes to our peer group. But when you consider the fact that our demographic, who we serve, what I'm saying, saying our peer group, I'm talking about you and I, Keith and probably everybody who's listening to this show, we use last cash and we did three years, five years, 10 years, 20 years ago. Sure. Okay. But that demographic of people that we serve is one of the largest, one of the fastest growing groups in this country.


Speaker 3 (00:05:22) - It's when you really look at the facts. Look back in the early nineties, the Wall Street Journal, there's already a Wall Street Journal that talk about the death of cash. By the end of the nineties, cash wasn't gonna be around anymore. When I started, when I got in the ATM space 12 years ago, the kind of the talk on the street was, yeah, but you got Apple Pay and the Google Wallet and you got all these, this stuff coming on, cash is gonna be dead in two to three years from now. And the fact is, there's more than doubled the amount of currency and circulation today than there was 12 years ago. There's more currency in circulation today than any time in human history. And the peer group who we serve, the demographic who we serve, uses cash and almost transacts entirely in cash. And that's not going away. We've seen that increase. We've done a lot of market research, we see what's going on, but then we also see what's going on inside our own funds and how people are behaving. It's still a vibrant market.


Speaker 0 (00:06:14) - Yes. And you and I have discussed before how some businesses and jurisdictions have tried to ban cash use, but those bans were repealed and it was brought back that you're able to use cash. And you brought up such a brilliant analogy. You as an investor out there, you might be interested in investing in a C-class apartment building, even though if you would do that, you'd probably be less likely to live in one. So yes, a lot of times you're with your circle of friends, you're in your peer group and you tend to think like they do and everyone lives just like you do. But when we talk about different demographic groups from people that you usually hang out with, one reason I've learned through dealing with you over the years, Dave, is that ATMs are so lucrative for ATM investors because this is going to seem incomprehensible to you, the educated listener, but many ATM users pay two to $3 just to get access to a $20 bill. Imagine paying $3 to get access to a $20 bill. And you're thinking, well, who would do that? No one that I hang out with would do that. That's 15% of 15% surcharge to go ahead and access your own money. But yeah, I mean that's one reason why these people are financially disadvantaged, but that's why it's lucrative.


Speaker 3 (00:07:29) - Yeah. And for those people it's a way of life. And when you look at how a person's wage or ACH today, somebody works at a factory, their paycheck gets ACH right into their account. They transact in a lot of cash. You know, it saves them for two or $3. It saves them from getting in a car. Some of 'em don't even have a car or getting in into public transit and going down the road to a, the neighborhood bank where they bank at and then stand in line at a in front of a teller on a Friday night and to try and get, you know, 20, $5,000 in cash. You know that two or $3 to go down to the corner of convenience store. That's pretty inexpensive. But you're right. I mean, there's people who will pay two or $3 to get a $10 bill or $20 bill. It's just crazy.


Speaker 0 (00:08:18) - Now Dave just gave an excellent example because some people might think, are you taking advantage of these people? You're actually helping serve these people and give them an option? And one thing that I know that you really prioritize doing, Dave, with these a t m investments you've been helping people with for years where they can come invest alongside of you, is that for your physical at m locations, you choose high foot traffic areas.


Speaker 3 (00:08:44) - You've heard the saying, what's the three most important things about real estate and its location, location, location. Even more so in this investment because at its core this is a real estate investment. You're monetizing a two foot by two foot piece of real estate and you may be taken at two foot by two foot piece of real estate to its highest and best use. So you're monetizing that piece of real estate. But no, you're adding real value in a community and and serving a community, but it's a real estate play.


Speaker 0 (00:09:15) - Now if you are the listener and the viewer out there, if you think cash is going to disappear completely in say seven years, well then you probably wouldn't be interested in investing in something like this. But the more you read and the more you learn, the more you're gonna be informed on that. So talk to us a little bit more about the future of payments. Dave,


Speaker 3 (00:09:35) - You mentioned a seven year contract and that's what this is. It's a seven year deal. But when you consider the tax impact plus the first 12 months of cash flow and that first 12 months, you're getting about 60 to 70% of your principle back in that first 12 months from the time your cash flow starts, you're getting that first year's tax deduction, 80% right on the front end. You're getting about 60 to 70% of your principal back in that first 12 months. And then you've got an extra six years of cash flow behind that. So although it's a seven year deal, it's not like you have your money at risk for seven years. You get your money at risk count, the tax impact, you got your money at address for less than three years. It becomes a, not only is it a a really good cashflow and income stream play and you can start really beefing up your monthly cash flow, but it's also a tax plan. It's one of the ways that I keep myself tax efficient. You know, it's, you use that big chunk of depreciation in year one and you start getting yourself to the point where you're living the tax efficient life you start gaining on your wealth building journey. You can get momentum quick when you start applying some of those principles and using that depreciation offset, the tax liability and some other income.


Speaker 0 (00:10:52) - We're talking about how investors get 80% bonus depreciation right there at the beginning of a seven year hold time. And Dave, is there a specific number of ATMs that a specific investor owns?


Speaker 3 (00:11:08) - One unit is considered five or six ATMs and it matter, you know, it depends on what kind and sort of location. There's some ATMs that have dual monitors and there's two people using 'em at the same time. So it really depends on, on what ATM that is. But you're talking five or six ATMs for one unit. One unit is $104,000. We do sell half units now. So you can come in as low as $52,000, but that's how it works. You buy a unit of ATMs, you put 'em in our fund, we manage the fund for you, and you get a portion of that surcharge revenue. This is sort of a three-way split. You got the investor getting about a third of the income or 30% of the income. You get the store owner or the the location owner about roughly 30% of the income. And then you got the management company, which is where all the costs flow through. You get the management company getting about 40% of that income. So it's sort of a three-way split, but you're getting as close to the asset as you possibly can get without owning at yourself. And so you're just buying the units, you're paying us to manage them for you and making it totally passive.


Speaker 0 (00:12:18) - As Dave and I have talked about on a previous show, people use ATMs for more than just accessing cash. There are more use cases than just accessing cash. But Dave, when we get back to the numbers and we talk about why you have so many repeat investors that have invested in a lot of ATMs with you years ago and wanna come back and do this more. And that is because this is a cash flow centric investment besides being tax advantaged. However, you as an investor, you shouldn't expect much appreciation on your six or so ATMs that you hold for this seven year or so hold period. Those things are almost fully depreciated in value by the end of your hold period. But this is a tax efficient, cash flow centric investment. So Dave, tell us more about how that looks for the investor, because I know this is actually a highly predictable income stream for investors.


Speaker 3 (00:13:08) - It is highly predictable. We've never missed our monthly distribution payments. Yeah. And we've never missed our proforma and so highly predictable. And the depreciation, the way the depreciation works is it, it really you invest, you get that depreciation, you can use it to offset some other income and you got two choices. You can keep your income stream coming from your ATMs. You can keep that tax free for the first couple years or you can use that even more aggressively. You can use that depreciation, go off and and use it to offset the tax liability on some other income. At the end of the day, it's about living the tax efficient life down and getting out of those high tax brackets, getting out of that 37% tax bracket, moving yourself down into the twenties and the teen


Speaker 0 (00:13:58) - Reducing your marginal income tax bracket with offsets from this investment. People really celebrate your track record. Tell us about those cash on cash returns and just about that income stream that one has historically gotten.


Speaker 3 (00:14:14) - The cash on cash return is uh, right around 26. I think it's 26.1% cash on cash return. Yeah, the IRR is a bit lower. It's uh, right around a 20% i r r. And so you mentioned it earlier about how an at t m machine really actually does depreciate, like, and I'll give you sort of the analogy when you do, when you take depreciation against, let's say a multi-family apartment building and let's say 10 years down the road, you sell that multi-family apartment building for a gain, you not only pay tax on the gain, you also recapture all of that depreciation that you've used and, and now you get taxed on that as well. So it's very different in an at t m investment. In an at m investment, you don't recapture the depreciation, you get a tax break and that depreciation, you never recapture that. So you really need to almost count that into your total return because that affects your bottom line, that affects your tax impact and you never recapture it. And so you'll notice unlike brick and mortar where normally your cash and cash return is lower and your IRR is higher because you get that residue from sale here, it's flip flopped just totally different. And then you get a higher cash on cash return, a lower i r, but it's because of the loss of value of your equipment over that seven year period


Speaker 0 (00:15:36) - In real estate, when you relinquish a property and sell it, unless you do a 10 31 tax deferred exchange, yes you have to pay back the depreciation that you were writing off all of those years. You don't have that obstacle, you don't have that problem with ATMs. And yes, you typically hear about IRRs, which all call synonymously total rate of returns in your real estate as being higher than what your cash on cash return is. But here, this is inverted. This is a cash flow centric investment. And part of the reason why is because your machines, they do go down in value over time. Why your cash flow stays at a steady high rate, 26.1% in this case,


Speaker 3 (00:16:16) - It's been a fun asset class. And it's interesting, you know, you talk about how the depreciation works and you try to introduce somebody who's not real savvy on the tax side. You talk about how it works and how it will affect them, and then they see it on their tax return. It's like, oh my goodness, yeah that works. Like you said, I'm like, oh, well yeah, it becomes part of many of my investors' tax planning on an annual basis. It is part of my annual tax planning. And so it becomes one of those things where it's just easy to start kind of collecting 'em and, and making it sort of an annual thing where you just collect more at t ATM machines, keep yourself tax efficient and and really start building those massive income streams.


Speaker 0 (00:16:57) - Well, you can learn more and get ahold of the proforma and learn more about ATM performance and the projected future use patterns and how to get started as investor if this interests you at gre Dave, thanks for the great update on ATMs.


Speaker 3 (00:17:15) - All right, thanks Keith.


Speaker 0 (00:17:17) - You listening to get rich education. We've got more with Dave when we come back on car washes. Why they're so lucrative, especially when you add a subscription model. I'm your host Keith Wein. Hold with JWB real Estate Capital. Jacksonville Real Estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor. Since 2013, JWB is ready to help your money make money, and to make it easy for everyday investors, get slash g rre. That's JWB real rre GRE listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 40 2056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plexes. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Chaley Ridge personally though even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio.


Speaker 4 (00:18:44) - This is the Real Wealth Networks Kathy, Becky, and you are listening to the Always Valuable Get Rich Education with Keith Wine Hole.


Speaker 1 (00:19:04) - Welcome


Speaker 0 (00:19:04) - Back to Get Risk Education. Car washers are a remarkably lucrative real estate business. It's enhanced with a franchise model and selling subscriptions to car wash customers. That's how you get that recurring revenue. So a rainy week doesn't wash out your profits. In fact, in the Wall Street Journal it recently said, and I quote what they wrote here, there is no other operation on a one acre site that can do one to two and a half million dollars in sales and pocket half of that. So our guest expert, Dave, is back because he helps you get investment returns without having to actually operate the car wash yourself. So Dave, tell us more. I know for example, much like other real estate location of a car wash is vital


Speaker 3 (00:19:53) - Even more so with this type of car wash because the whole system is set up to get you a quality wash in two to three minutes. It's designed to get you off the road and back on the road in less than three minutes. So if you can put a really good product like this carwash, everybody that I've ever talked to, whether it's a franchisee, an owner, a a subscription customer or a one-time user, everybody gives Tommy's express carwash a giant thumbs up. It's about volume and you put that on a busy street corner or you know, there's all kinds of metrics that we like and you know, it's, you gotta be where people are already going. You're not creating a an environment where you're drawing people to somewhere you want to. It's all about creating habits. On a Monday morning, my wife gets in her car and she, about eight 15 in the morning, she goes down to Wegmans about a 15 minute drive.


Speaker 3 (00:20:50) - And I promise you if you would introduce her to Tommy's and she would get a car wash when she goes to Wegmans on that Monday morning, she would do that two or three times. She'd be a customer for life. Like she now created a habit kind of like a Starbucks creating a habit. So what we're doing is we're putting this asset in a really good location. Recreating an environment where you don't have to wait in line for 10, 15 minutes, five minutes, get your car wash. It's not one of those white glove people wiping your, it's automated. You get a really good quality wash in two to three minutes. You can get in and out quick.


Speaker 0 (00:21:26) - You help partner investor money with a model that's proving itself with the Tommy's Carwash Express franchise like you just mentioned. So technology really adds the efficiency of getting cars through the carwash quickly in order to make this more lucrative. And Tommy's is very tech forward. For example, I know that customers buy subscriptions and they typically use a phone app


Speaker 3 (00:21:52) - To the point of technology and efficiency. You know, you're talking, especially over the last three years now, what was one of the top concerns or one of the top challenges for employers was getting good quality people. I mean look no further when you go to busy restaurant and you know, I mean there there was some real challenges in finding good employees. One of the things, you know, and then this is due to some of the technology that you just mentioned. You know, we got, because of the systems and technology, we can run two to 300 cars per hour through the scar wash to get washed and maybe even better you can do that with two to three people on site. So very limited overhead in terms of wages employees, you can pay those employees much better because you don't have like 30 of 'em, you got three of 'em. And so really the whole business model, and it also comes back to what you shared earlier about the operating margins. You got 45 to 50% operating margins in this business. It's in terms of percentage, it's one of the most lucrative businesses that I know of and it's just fun business to be involved in.


Speaker 0 (00:23:00) - Yeah. Now when you talk about moving two to 300 cars per hour through a car wash, are you talking about, you know, physically we think of a car wash Now are we talking about one long tunnel with the rate like that? Or are we talking about multiple bays?


Speaker 3 (00:23:16) - Normally it's one long tunnel and the longer the tunnel, the more you can, you know, there's different speeds that you know the track will take you through. And there's different things inside the carwash you can activate depending on how busy, I mean it, it really is. They're real car wash nerves. I mean they're techies and it, they really did perfect this product to the point where let's say you have a 100 car wash hour where you're putting a hundred cars through in an hour and now now you get into the busy time where it's, you know, people are getting off of work where it, now you're ramping up to two to 300 cars per hour. The speed varies on the track and it's, you know, different features of inside the tunnel kind of kick in because of the volume. So there's a lot of automation, a lot of technology going on inside the wash


Speaker 0 (00:24:02) - As society changes, you know, whether it's a gasoline powered car or it's an EV or it's diesel, they all need to go through the car wash. We're talking about that rate at which cars get washed, which is actually pretty important because if I'm a car wash customer, you're talking about your wife's habits earlier with washing her car. If I think about getting my car washed, but I see a long line over there, why might not even go in and use that car wash. And then I'll start to think, oh well what good is my subscription? So keeping that wash tunnel moving also keeps the line short besides increasing your rate of income.


Speaker 3 (00:24:37) - Yeah, for sure. And there is, you know, talking about subscriptions, we're not all about subscriptions, but there's kind of a sweet spot and we figured out that sweet spot's somewhere into 55, somewhere between 50 and 60%. It's where you really want your subscription numbers to be. You don't want 100% subscription model. If you were at 90%, that means your subscription model, you're not priced right. Almost like charging $500 a month for your apartment building and you're always a hundred percent occupancy. It's not good.


Speaker 0 (00:25:09) - It's a problem. Not


Speaker 3 (00:25:10) - Joking. Yeah, that is a problem. Yeah. So that's sort of the things we're watching. We do want a nice mix of retail customers. We think kind of that sweet spots in that 50 to 60% subscription model range.


Speaker 0 (00:25:22) - Oh that's a great point. And that's really interesting when you think about business models and a lot like apartment buildings, car washes are based on their income stream amount, but you're gonna have a different set of expenses with a car wash than you will. And apartment building of course, like you're going to have expenses for example, for water and detergent. Dave spoke a bit about how they keep the labor costs down by having fewer people on site, largely through the use of technology. So we're talking about an innovative car wash type here that's proven itself. Tommy's expressed car wash, their footprint geographically just keeps expanding and expanding and expanding. And in fact Dave, I know when we talked about this last year at least, that that time only Panera Bread in Chick-fil-A, they were the only two franchises that had higher sales revenue per location. Wow.


Speaker 3 (00:26:11) - We're at number three and we're hoping to get to number two here in short order. But, uh, chick-fil-A, that's a hard one to beat , but uh, yeah, no, it's uh, one of the top performing franchises in the anti our country,


Speaker 0 (00:26:24) - Chick-fil-A. Those two crucial pickles on that chicken sandwich. You know, it's, it's really hard to, to compete with there. You need a really efficient car wash to outdo that as far as it is on the investment end and how that actually looks like for one that wants to come alongside you and participate. Before we talk about what the returns look like, talk a a bit about how that is looking for current investors that are already in this investment. Since we first discussed this last year,


Speaker 3 (00:26:52) - We launched this fund as a debt fund. We got into it fairly slowly. We were building a couple washes and we knew that it was gonna ramp up, but we had a lot of work to do on the front end. We were, we had lots that were under contract that we were working on permitting. So we started as a debt fund. We launched phase two as sort of a semi equity, I mean it was an equity fund but it, it sort of captain investor 1.75. You got all the depreciation. The depreciation was not, you didn't have to recapture the depreciation cuz you're dealing with a lot of equipment. In fact, car washes are very unique in that you can take bonus depreciation on the building as if it were equipment. Like you don't need cost sake studies, you don't need you just bonus depreciation the thing out like, you know, the entire building, like it was a piece of equipment right up front.


Speaker 3 (00:27:39) - First year, that's rare. Yeah. And then we sort of ran through that model and we have eight operational sites today. We have seven more coming outta the ground right now. We expect to be somewhere around 20, uh, fully operational by the end of the year. And here's the exciting part, here's the fun part. We're we're looking to build a hundred of these in five years. Wow. And so to really ramp up and take us, get us into phase three and phase two worked great. Investors got all the depreciation, they got all of the cash flow. I'm working free by the way. They got all of the cash flow until they get to their 1.75 and then they exit, then the GP partners start making money. But that model why it worked very good and it's gonna get us to about 30 ish car washes. We're ramping up.


Speaker 3 (00:28:33) - We wanna go under and we're retooling our model. Now that we've uh, got a little bit of experience under our belt, we see how our operations team is operating and see how these car washes are really taken off and really how our team has made these things perform. We want to go to a hundred and to get to a hundred, we're retooling the model. Our investors have spoken. They said, man, we really wanna be, you know, a little bit, kind of give some of that backside you talked about the Wall Street Journal article on Wall Street Journal came out and said that there's PE firms paying 18 to 20 x multiples on EBITDAs and it's just super aggressive. So our investors like to hear that, but they wanted a piece of the upsides. We listened to our investors, okay, we're rolling out an equity model.


Speaker 0 (00:29:19) - And just to back up to jump in. So Dave had been talking about the debt side about how previously this was a raise on the debt side and now in the future going forward, this is how you can get in on the equity side investment of car washes.


Speaker 3 (00:29:32) - It is an equity model and it's gonna allow the investors, it's gonna allow all of our investors to not only be a part of the backend, but there's gonna be a 10% preferred return. There's gonna be aggressive cash flow throughout the hold and the exit. Um, investors gonna be with us all the way through and be a part of that upside, be a part of the exit.


Speaker 0 (00:29:54) - Talk to us about any of the threats that might be out there, whether that's threats to just the overall model of car washes five, 10 or 20 years down the road, and then what the competition is like Tommy's expressed car wash versus other car washes. What are some of the threats


Speaker 3 (00:30:10) - We've seen, much like our investors have spoken and expressed their desires to be a part of the upside and we're getting ready to rule that out to 'em. The general public has given their opinion, uh, with their wallets. And so when you get to understand this model and, and how it works, and then you start paying attention to a lot of the other car washes out there and the look and appearance and how they work. And it takes longer and there's lines and you know, some of 'em are full service and you know, it's pretty inconsistent, but consumers have spoken and they want this product and Tommy's kind of the innovative leader in the car space. And so they're really all about just listening to the consumer and get them what they want. Consumers want a good quality wash for a fair price and they want to get it quickly and efficiently. And that's what we're delivering. So there's competition in the space. There's only one or two competitors of ours who we would say, okay, they are there so we're not building across the street. There's not really a need for us to be there if there's that competitor is there. But most of our competitors, if we were to put a Tommy's Express in a neighborhood, we would steal the show and we have what consumers want and they'll come to us.


Speaker 0 (00:31:30) - When I think about long-term use patterns, Dave, just anecdotally I think of my own lifespan, I only seem to notice more car washes in cities as time goes on per capita. Not fewer. In fact, growing up my dad used to wash his car by hand in or right next to the garage or old Subaru legacy station wagon. Sometimes I would help him out. Well, he doesn't wash it anymore. It's more efficient to go drive through a car wash. That almost seems to be a vestige of yester year where you would regularly wash your own car in your driveway.


Speaker 3 (00:32:02) - Well there's two things there. One is there's a lot more people live in an apartment buildings and, and less out in the country in suburbia. So the, even having the ability to wash your car in some places doesn't make sense. But there's another thing too. You know that by the time I started regularly using a car wash where I actually had to pay some organization to wash my car, I could have bought the car wash . Now, I mean you see it all the time. You got teenagers who's got a nice vehicle and they don't even think twice. They're going through and spending eight or 10 or 15 bucks to wash their car. And I was like, oh my goodness. Okay. But times are changing and it's becoming a standard thing to get your car wash, your car wash and forget the garden hose and the bucket and the soap,


Speaker 0 (00:32:43) - The carwash I use most regularly, the highest tier one now costs $18. That's where they use, you know, rain X on the windshield and everything else. But as far as when it comes to the investor perspective, this is one of those investments, Dave, where you recently spoke at the conference that people are lining up at the back of the room to want to learn more because they're so interested in this investment. I know oftentimes car washes have high cash flow and high tax efficiency for the investors. So tell us about how that's expected to look here On the equity side,


Speaker 3 (00:33:13) - You get a hundred percent bonus appreciation over five years. You get a big chunk of that in the first year because of the amount of development that we have in the fund, you're getting less than half of it the first year, around half of it, maybe just a little bit less than half of it the first year. So you get a big chunk of your depreciation in year one and then you get the rest of the depreciation and it's four years following that. It's a pretty aggressive on the depreciation side. But then on the cash flow side, 10% preferred returns. You've got multiples that are in the two and a half to three x in five to seven years, you're talking aggressive returns and you're talking aggressive, uh, bonus depreciation for tax impact,


Speaker 0 (00:33:57) - You need to be an accredited investor. And what's the minimum investment?


Speaker 3 (00:34:02) - So minimum investment is a hundred thousand dollars and you do need to be an accredited investor.


Speaker 0 (00:34:07) - Tell us about the expected hold time.


Speaker 3 (00:34:09) - We're modeling it five to seven years. So while a private equity firm and with Sam some pretty lucrative offers already, but we've seen, let me back up a second. So this industry is so fragmented that the biggest player in the room has accounts for about 5% of the global revenue. Wow. So that's how fragmented this space is. So there's real opportunity and institutions are desperately trying to get their foot in the door because they see that it's a recession resistant business. They see that it's a, it's got strong operating margin. The Wall Street Journal talked about that where, you know, just crazy operating margin. So they're desperately trying to get their foot in the door and get a foothold in the space and get a little traction in the space. They're not hardly any people who they can write a hundred million checks to. We're building a portfolio that somebody would be able to write a billion dollar check for in a couple years. And so when that happens, we feel like the more mature this space, the more mature this portfolio is, the more cream we can squeeze out for our investors. And so that's where we're going with it. We don't believe that we exit in two to three years, but it could happen. But we're modeling out for five to seven years


Speaker 0 (00:35:30) - In case it takes that long to Sure. Get returns on the conservative side, five to seven years. And yeah, I, I learned a little something there. Okay. The biggest player in the space only has about a 5% share. Very fractured, much like real estate itself is well day's, one of our G R E marketplace providers, you probably already know that. So if you wanna learn more, I'd encourage it and see what makes this business so lucrative. You could do that at gre Dave, it's really been stimulating to think about some of these alternative real estate investments. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.


Speaker 3 (00:36:07) - Thanks Rob me Keith. It was fun


Speaker 0 (00:36:15) - On the ATMs with 100 4K invested that has recently generated $2,262 per month, 2262. And they've never missed the monthly distribution or their proforma return target. And if you go invest quite a bit more than that amount, there is something new to announce. And that is the existence of financing with ATM investments that has the potential to amplify your return some more. So with ATMs, it's a strong cash on cash returns and the I R R along with the quick return of capital, that's what's making it so popular. They have been delivering them to this group for more than a decade now. Now the operator, Dave, he's really proud of what they're doing and that's why he wants to give the opportunity for you to get on the ground in person and see just what they're doing. In fact, in only 10 days, there's a car wash and self storage investor tour.


Speaker 0 (00:37:19) - Yes, it is a one day investor tour on May 18th in Columbia, South Carolina. And you are invited. You'll see a Tommy's Express carwash and Moore meet the team, ask questions about the business plan. There is no cost to attend. You can meet Dave there as well. You'll learn more about that and with hotel accommodations and everything else after you get the free investor report. At G R E Marketplace, we're talking about world class operators in the car wash space here. When you have multiple diverse income streams in your life, what you've done is you've made your income resilient. So to connect more and learn more and see proformas on adding an income stream to your life in the at m space, if that interests you, slash atm. For car washes, visit gre Until next week, I'm your host Keith Wein. Hold. Don't quit your daydream.


Speaker 5 (00:38:27) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial, or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education L L C exclusively.


Speaker 6 (00:38:55) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich

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Learn how to harvest equity without giving up your low, fixed-rate mortgage.

Today, I discuss: conventional loans for single-family rentals, DTI, refinancing, accessing equity, student loan debt, and down payment requirements for income properties with Ridge Lending Group President, Caeli Ridge.

Learn what’s better for a second mortgage—the pros and cons of a HELOC vs. Home Equity Loan.

You also get a mortgage market overview.

We discuss changes in cash-out refinance seasoning requirements. 

Caeli also describes where she believes mortgage rates are headed later this year.

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Speaker 0 (00:00:00) - Welcome to GRE! I'm your host Keith Weinhold. You can get a conventional loan for a single family rental with less than a 20% down payment. Learn why you might want to refinance today. Even though mortgage rates aren't as low as they were a couple years ago, how do you qualify for loans if you've already got student loan debt? All things mortgages and financing today on Get Rich Education,

Speaker 2 (00:00:29) - You are listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.


Speaker 0 (00:00:52) - Welcome to GRE from K Patis North Carolina to Hattiesburg, Mississippi and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold. This is Get Rich Education, the voice of real estate investing since 2014. Before we get into a great education on all things mortgages today, there is still a little bit of time left for you to join us on tomorrow night's G R E Live event. You can join us from the comfort of your own home. This is for new build single family rentals, opt to four plexes in Jacksonville, Ocala, and elsewhere in Florida. Purchase prices are still below 300 K on the single families. Yes, still in the two hundreds in some cases. I don't know how long that can last. Yeah, these are the property types that are quickly vanishing. Our investment coach Naresh Stars in that event tomorrow, he finds you the good deals with the national providers that are actually giving incentives despite the fact that the product that you're buying is in really short supplies.


Speaker 0 (00:01:59) - You're gonna get a good, solid, fundamental education on what makes a durable income property market and a arrest in the Florida provider are going to share with us just for webinar attendees. Those even better than two and two incentives. Yes, for you, the incentives on the webinar are even better than that 2% of your purchase price paid do you in closing costs cash and 2% of free property management. It is going to be even better than that. That's gonna be rolled out tomorrow night, May 2nd at 8:30 PM Eastern, 5:30 PM Pacific. It is free to attend. You can ask questions live, get your questions answered and get access to the actual properties should you so choose. That is the final reminder. So if that's of any interest to you, be sure to sign up I'm coming to you from the Mojave Desert today here in metro Las Vegas.


Speaker 0 (00:03:04) - It's Henderson Nevada. To be technical next week I'll bring you the show from Phoenix, Arizona. And you know what? It's kind of funny. Sometimes you hear people refer to this general area of the nation this southwest and they say they are going to the desert if they were doing what I'm doing. Well this unrepentant geography nerd will clarify that it is the deserts plural. Yes, Las Vegas is in the Mojave Desert in Phoenix is in the Sonora Desert. There are differences in vegetation type and others that distinguish the two. And the most obvious difference perhaps is the presence of the big iconic Saguaro cactus down in the Sonora that you don't find up here in the more northerly Mojave and perhaps the Joshua tree is the more distinct plant type here in the Mojave. Yes, we're talking about two gigantic pieces of real estate here. Much of it is baron. Two disparate deserts with their own distinctive flora and fauna. As you're about to learn about financing real estate today, let's remember that there is a cash out refinance and then generally if you're performing a refinance without pulling cash out, that is known as a rate and term refinance. Let's get into it.


Speaker 0 (00:04:30) - Well hey, well how do you qualify for more mortgage loans at the lowest interest rate available, Americans have near record equity levels in their homes. What's the best way to access that equity yet keep your low mortgage rate in place? And what about your student loan debt and how that factors into you getting a mortgage or getting a refinance? We're answering all that today with a GRE regular guest and though it's her first appearance back on the show this year, it's the return of the company president that's created more financial freedom through real estate than any other lender in the entire nation, Ridge Lending Group. It's time for a big welcome back to Caeli Ridge.


Speaker 3 (00:05:08) - Keith Wein. Hold. Thank you. You flatter me sir. I appreciate it. Love being here with you and for your listeners.


Speaker 0 (00:05:14) - Well yes, the president is back and everyone loves this type of president because it's not about being a Democrat or Republican. So hail to the chief, great to have you here. And Jaylee mortgage rates, they have settled down a good bit from their recent highs now they peaked back in the fall of last year. So with that and some of the other things in mind, why don't you talk to us about the big picture first, sort of your mortgage market overview.


Speaker 3 (00:05:40) - Interest rates is always top of mind for everybody. I think they're doing pretty well. I do believe I've been sharing with our listeners and and my clients on a day-to-day. I do believe that rates will continue to kind of increase here and there. There's gonna be some ups and downs. Of course the Fed has been very clear with us. Jerome Powell is gonna continue to raise the Fed fund rate just for anybody that doesn't know the two between a mortgage rate and a Fed fund rate while connected, not the same thing. So when they raise that does not automatically mean that we see the increase on the the 30 year mortgage bonds. I think that that's gonna continue to happen, but I think the pace in which it happens or continues to happen is gonna be a lot less aggressive. So I think that's gonna bode well overall.


Speaker 3 (00:06:21) - For interest rates. I know everybody is very, very interested in in are they going up, are they going down, when are they going up, when are they going down? I think that we'll continue to see a little bit of upward movement. I think it's gonna be sometime next year that we start to see interest rates come back down in any meaningful way. And remember gang rates go up much, much faster than they come back down unfortunately. So I think we've got a little bit of way to go. But I'm always the one saying, Keith, you and I have talked about this, um, many, many times you must be doing the math and that the rate as a function of the return of the investment isn't the most important thing. So I'll leave it there for rates. Otherwise, I think that the industry is doing really, really well.


Speaker 3 (00:06:58) - One big announcement that we had this year was that Fannie and Freddie both have extended the seasoning period of time to where a cash out refinance when leverage was used to acquire is applicable. So now you have to wait 12 months to pull, to pull cash out of a property using the A R V that after repair value if you use leverage to acquire the property. Quick distinction because this has been confused. If you paid cash for the property, your source and season funds, that still falls under what's called the delayed cash out refi and no seasoning is required. It's only when leverage was used to acquire the property and then they're trying to use an after repair value to pull cash out in hand. Is that 12 month seasoning rate and term is different. So that doesn't apply either.


Speaker 0 (00:07:45) - Okay. So if you make a purchase and then say it less than 12 months down the road, you want to do a refi but not pull cash out, is that still all right?


Speaker 3 (00:07:55) - That's absolutely fine. No seasoning is required and we can use the arv. It's only when you want cash in your hand that that 12 months is is applicable.


Speaker 0 (00:08:04) - Got it. Okay. That's really helpful to know. Just big picture before we winnow down, are there any other big substantial mortgage stories out there that some should know about? Um, it was only a couple weeks ago, there was a lot of misinformation going around on TikTok and elsewhere about 40 year loans from F H A without people understanding that's just for loan modifications and really other stories like that. Any other big picture things where you can help us see what's happening?


Speaker 3 (00:08:30) - It seems to be par for for the course? I have not. There's nothing that's come across my desk that I would say was newsworthy or noteworthy to share. I think we've got more to unpack here than any of that.


Speaker 0 (00:08:40) - Yeah and things sure are picking up here around G R e. People wanna buy more properties this year. It really slowed down toward the end of last year, right about when the mortgage rates were at their peak. So when we talk about getting loans, we think about leverage. Leverage is created with debt. Has anything changed with the down payment requirements for an income property? And we're largely here in today's discussion talking about one to four unit income properties. Properties that you don't live in yourself,


Speaker 3 (00:09:08) - Correct down payments have have remained the same. There isn't been anything that has changed there. Just to reiterate, for those that may not be aware on a single family residence, conventionally 85% loan to value is applicable. You can leverage all the way up to 85, you're putting 15% down. Keep in mind everybody that that will have pmi, private mortgage insurance attached to it, I would have you look at them side by side. The PMI factors actually pretty low and depending on the loan size it may only be 20, 30 bucks a month. So if you're able to leverage extra, it may make sense. You're gonna have to look at the numbers so that single family and then two to four unit on a purchase transaction different on a refinance transaction but purchase is 25% down or 75% leverage is required for those duplex, triplex, fourplexes.


Speaker 0 (00:09:54) - Okay, so as little as 15% down on a rental single family home. So you're getting up to six to one, seven to one leverage in that case. Sheila, do you find very many people doing that or would they rather pay the 20% down for a rental single family home and not have the pmi?


Speaker 3 (00:10:10) - I find that right now I think that it's less common than maybe it was because interest rates are up from where they were, uh, a year, year and a half ago. So more often than not we see the 20% down. But I still think it's worth looking at. I mean you're never gonna know unless you run the numbers right side by side.


Speaker 0 (00:10:25) - Okay, so we're thinking about how much cash we have to have put aside for a down payment in closing costs. And one thing that we need to do in order to qualify for that loan in the first place of course is some people get hung up on the dti, their debt to income ratio is too high to qualify for property and chaley. Over the past few months I've had a few listeners write in with questions and I thought, well I'll say that question until we have chale on again. And one of them really has to do with student loan debt. Student loan debt often contributes to one having too high of a debt to income ratio so that they didn't have to repay their loan. I know that Biden said that you wouldn't have to pay back student loan debt for a while, but can you talk to us specifically about student loan debt with D T I?


Speaker 3 (00:11:06) - There's gonna be a few pieces to share with everybody depending on whether we're talking about Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac and we won't know who we're gonna end up selling to after the loan funds. And they have slightly different guidelines between the two of them. Similar. But there are some differences as it relates to student loan debt regardless of whether you're in deferment or you've been told that you don't have to repay. If it shows up on an individual's credit report, the calculation will be as follows. They're going to take the outstanding balance times 1%, that's Fannie Mae's rule or the outstanding balance times half a percent. That's Freddie Mac rule and that will be the payment that we include in the debt to income ratio. Uh, I'll mention that the all-in one, which is a very popular loan right now. First Lean HeLOCK, maybe we'll talk about that here today. They will defer to Fannie rules so it'll be 1% of the outstanding debt pulling on the credit report even if it shows a zero payment listed. Now there is one caveat, if the individual has a letter, this happened maybe in the last six months and I'm trying to think about, there was a title, it's pretty rare. But if they're able to gain access to documentation that specifies that they are not going to have to repay that debt and we can take that documentation, then we can zero out that payment in the D T I.


Speaker 0 (00:12:22) - Alright, there's some strategies for how you can approach D T I with respect to any student loan debt that you have and what is the maximum D T I that a borrower can have?


Speaker 3 (00:12:34) - Conventionally and non qm, you're gonna get to 50% debt to income ratio for the all-in-one since we just touched on it, 43% is the absolute max.


Speaker 0 (00:12:43) - Okay. And on prior shows, Chile and I have discussed specifically with examples just how that D T I is calculated. If you're wondering, you can hear that in some past episodes Chile one one goes ahead and they continue to add income properties to their portfolio. Often I recommend that one does that with high leverage but not over leverage. How does one keep their D T I ratio down over time as they continue to add properties so that they can qualify for more properties in the future? Is there a good strategy for that?


Speaker 3 (00:13:14) - There is, and it's such a good question because as investors, right, our qualification primers are not static. They're going to change over time as we buy and sell and refinance. So it's very, very important, especially with the debt to income ratio that we're keeping an eye on it. And there's a few ways in which you can kind of strategize or optimize that D T I. The first is going to be the Schedule E, okay? The Schedule E is where all the rental properties are going to live once you've filed the annual tax return. The easiest way for the time that we have here today, Keith, is gonna be to tell the listeners, send us your draft returns. So on an ongoing basis we tell our active clients do not file federal tax returns until you send us the draft. We're going to run that draft through the pre-formulated calculation that comes straight from Fannie, Freddie and then we're gonna provide you with some feedback, one of which may be Mr.


Speaker 3 (00:14:03) - Jones, you forgot to include your insurance as a deduction and that's actually an add back that's gonna be to your disadvantage. Make sure that you put that in there. You didn't claim the full number of days of income for the property, you forgot to put depreciation on there. That's also an add back. There's a whole slew of things that we can look at and look for and give the individual that feedback so that they are filing at that optimal way while maintaining what the maximized tax credits are, right? There's a nice balance there. The more aggressive you are with the tax deductions, the more it can impact the D T I. So we wanna have eyes on that and work closely with the client and or their CPA is a very common part of what we do. So schedule E a little more complicated, that would be one of the the ways in which we wanna maximize debt to income ratio.


Speaker 3 (00:14:45) - Obviously not obtaining new debt, new consumer debt is is not gonna be to our advantage, right? We don't want more liability than we have income. Another thing is, is that when we talk about credit and a lot of clients that we talk to, they pay their credit cards off monthly, right? Maybe they charge up five grand, eight grand, 10 grand, they get a miles or whatever it is. It's very important to communicate with us to find out when in the month we wanna strategically pull the credit. Because what will happen is is that the day in which we take that snapshot, if there's a minimum payment due, a balance with a minimum payment, that minimum payment will be used in the individual's debt to income ratio regardless of whether they're gonna pay it off at the end of the month. That doesn't matter to us.


Speaker 3 (00:15:26) - There's a payment here, we gotta hit you for it. So strategizing on the day in which we wanna run credit might be another helpful way for D T I. And then finally, and there's probably a few other things, but I think high use would be, I don't like the shorter term amortizations. I think this is something else you and I have talked about many times, Keith, where people wanna pay off quicker, which is great if that's really what they wanna do, that's perfectly fine. I'm not sure that that would be my strategy, but whatever. Don't get yourself into a 15 year fixed mortgage because it's only gonna jack that payment. It's gonna really increase that payment. It's ultimately going to, for long-term optimization, hurt your D T I. You can do the same thing with a 30 year mortgage and not pay extra interest by accelerating the debt if that's what you chose. So those would be the the few things I'd comment on


Speaker 0 (00:16:10) - 100%. And for you the listener and viewer right now with what you just heard from chaley, you can begin to understand the value of working with a lender that works specific with income property investors rather than those lenders that are more geared toward primary residents, borrowers. Nothing wrong with them but they're in their lane during their thing. And you can understand why Chaley over there at Ridge is really a specialist to help you qualifying for as many income property loans as you possibly can and optimizing those loans as well. Chaley, when we talk about interest rates, oftentimes it's of interest to people to look at what are refinance interest rates like versus new purchase interest rates.


Speaker 3 (00:16:54) - I would say on average there's a variety of of variables that dictate what the rate is gonna be. Okay? I talk about this a lot. They're called LPAs loan level price adjustments. And a loan level price adjustment is a positive or negative number that attaches to the characteristic of the loan transaction. So purchase or refi, hash out refi rate and term refi credit score has its own L L P A loan to value, loan size occupancy. All of these come with a positive or negative number attached to them as it relates to purchase versus refinance. Generally speaking, let's take a rate and term refi where you're not getting cash out, you're just maybe taking an arm and making it affix. You're taking a higher rate and making it lower, whatever, maybe about a half a point difference. So if a purchase was at six and a half, the re rate and term refinance might be at 6 75 or 7%, cash out's gonna be a little bit different. I would add a quarter point to that and then if, if it's a two to four unit, add another quarter point on top of that. So those variables do make a difference.


Speaker 0 (00:17:53) - And maybe the listener might think, well why are you talking about refinancing at a time like this? If I wanted to refinance, I would've been more likely to do that about two years ago when mortgage rates read historic lows. But today Americans are sitting on near record equity, oftentimes it might be tied up in a low mortgage rate loan with that equity chaley. I talked to some people out there just lay people, people that aren't even investors and they have a big equity position with a really low mortgage interest rate loan and they seem to think that to refinance it, they would need to go ahead and refinance their entire mortgage and lose that maybe three or 4% loan, but they don't necessarily have to if they can do a second mortgage. So I guess really what I'm getting at and the question chaley is what is the best way to do a rate and term refi versus a cash out refi? And I know there are a lot of scenarios there.


Speaker 3 (00:18:44) - Yeah, lots of scenarios. So to your point, it is not necessary to give up a very low fixed rate mortgage if you want to harvest some of that equity. The ways in which, and I'm gonna have a plug after this for the all in one, but I'll get to that cuz I'm just such a big fan. But the ways in which you can do that both for your primary residents, a second home and an investment will be through a second lien mortgage, whether it be a heloc, home equity line of credit or a he loan, the HE loan is applicable for the rental properties. I do not believe, I hope somebody can give me alternative information, but I do not believe you're able to find second lean HELOCs for rentals today. I feel like those have really dried up if they're out there, the ones that I know of that used to do them are not doing them anymore.


Speaker 3 (00:19:27) - If they're out there and anyone's listening to this, somebody please let me know. Keylock for rental probably not an option. He loan for rental absolutely is an option. And this is guys a fixed rate mortgage in second lean position, just like your 30 year fixed first, this will be a 30 year fixed second interest rates are gonna be higher. And since we were talking about interest rates, I'm gonna say that they're probably anywhere from 10 to 13%, but they're smaller amounts. C L T V combined loan to value for a he loan on a rental would be 85% is what we have access to. So as quick math guys, if you have a value of a home of a hundred thousand and you owe on your first mortgage 50,000, the CLTV would be 85% of a hundred. So 85,000 minus the 50001st, which stays in place, you'd have access to about 35,000 in that example. And that would be access to rental properties that you just do not want to mess with that first lien mortgage different for owner-occupied. And I'll take your queue on when you want me to get into that.


Speaker 0 (00:20:26) - Yeah. Okay. So we are just talking about income property second mortgages there. Tell us about primary residences.


Speaker 3 (00:20:32) - So primary and secondary should be in the same bucket. You can leverage just 90% C L T B, same math as before but up to 90% And these are gonna be, you have HeLOCK and he loan. I'm gonna assume most people are gonna go for the HeLOCK, right? The open-ended revolving is definitely more attractive than a closed-ended fixed I believe in a second lien. And you know Prime is at eight I believe right now. Gosh, I should have checked before we go on, but I think Prime is sitting, it's an index. An indices like the Fed fund rate, that's an index two prime is at about eight. And then depending on the characteristics, those l LPAs that I mentioned, loan level price adjustments are gonna come up with a margin. Maybe it's 2% over prime or one or whatever it is depending on those things. So I would anticipate a HELOC and second lie position on a primary residence will be anywhere from eight to maybe 10%. More often than not is what you should expect. Interest only open-ended.


Speaker 0 (00:21:24) - And on the second mortgages, whether that takes the form of a HELOC or a HE loan, how long is the initial fixed rate period? Typically


Speaker 3 (00:21:32) - There are hybrids where you can fix in for a year or three years, et cetera. Those are available. I'm not sure that you wanna do that in a high rate environment. You probably wanna avoid any fixed rate right now if you had the option to get into it a couple of years ago, you're looking really good right now because you fixed in at at some ridiculously low rate for a period of two, three, maybe five years. I would tell people listening, fixing in on a HELOC right now is not gonna be your advantage when we believe that rates are gonna start coming down over the next year, et cetera. But for the HE loan, it's fixed for 30 years. Just like a 30 year fixed first lie mortgage, it's fixed, you have it four 30 years, it's amortized, it's closed ended. You're making your regular payments until you pay it off after the 30 year period of time.


Speaker 0 (00:22:13) - We're talking about how you can more efficiently borrow in this environment where people and investors have high equity positions and we have hopefully come off the mortgage rate highs from late last year. You're listening to Get Risk Education. Our guest is Ridge Lending Group President Chaley Ridge Morton, we come back. I'm your host Keith White Hole with JWB Real Estate Capital. Jacksonville Real Estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor. Since 2013, JWB is ready to help your money make money, and to make it easy for everyday investors, get started at jw b real rre. That's JWB real R E GRE listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 40 2056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plexes. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Chaley Ridge personally. They'll even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio.


Speaker 4 (00:23:45) - This is Rich Dad sales advisor, Blair Singer, listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Wine Hold and above all don't quit your daydream.


Speaker 1 (00:24:03) - Welcome


Speaker 0 (00:24:04) - Back to Get Rich Education. We're learning about how to be a savvy borrower with President of Ridge Lending Group, Chaley Ridge and Chaley. One product you have there that's really flexible and has helped out so many people and helped save borrowers tens of thousands of dollars in interest or more is what's called your all in one loan. Tell us about it.


Speaker 3 (00:24:25) - This is a first Lean HeLOCK everyone. I'm such a big fan, it's not for everybody, but for the right individual, I don't know that there is a loan product to rival it. It's got all the flexibility in the world and as Keith said, the mechanics of this and the concept of this arbitrage, it's called Velocity Banking, infinity Banking. If anybody's familiar with those terms, that's what this does. It allows you all the open flexibility to sort of become your own bank where you have this line of credit. It is a first lien line of credit. So let's take a a step back and talk about those low interest rates that everybody has secured over the last couple of years. We were very lucky to have to two and a half, 3% interest rates. And I'm constantly having this conversation and I'm really trying hard to dispel the psychology of you can never do better than that when it's just not the truth.


Speaker 3 (00:25:14) - And mathematically you will be able to figure this out. I'm gonna plug our website here. There is an interactive simulator that will take you to the all-in-one simulator where you can compare your existing fixed first lien mortgage to the All in one and and the input data is very, very simple. No vials of blood here guys, but if the input is accurate, the results page will tell you very clearly if the all-in one will save interest and Trump over the 30 year fixed at two and a half or whatever it is, or if you're fixed rate mortgage is more to your advantage, it will be very clear there'll be no mistaking it from that. I think further conversations will be necessary for those that see some real value in the All In One. I won't go too far down that rabbit hole, it's a little bit more complicated than we probably have time for here. But the first Lean All In one is such a fantastic tool. I really encourage your listeners to go ahead and and check out at the very least the simulator and see how it applies to you.


Speaker 0 (00:26:08) - The all-in one loan operates much like a first lien heloc. I don't think we have time to describe it all. Like you said, you do have the simulator there on your where one could see if their existing mortgage it compares favorably or unfavorably to the all-in one loan. But as we know with the first lien heloc, therefore one feature of the All in one loan is the option, not obligation, but option of making interest-only payments to keep your payment down.


Speaker 3 (00:26:34) - Yeah, this is where it gets a little bit tricky for some people when we start talking about payments FirstLine Open-ended HeLOCK, where it's called the All In one because you're replacing not only your mortgage with this revolving open-ended heloc, but also a checking and savings account and combining those two elements whereby simple depository income is being used at dollar for dollar driving down principle balance to save in daily interest accrual. I'm gonna give a quick example and then we can move on and, and I encourage everybody to do the simulator email us, let's talk through it. We'll take you by the hand. It's the learning curve's a little intense, it was even for me. But here's an example of velocity of money and kind of how the all-in-one works. So take a 30 year fixed mortgage and a 15 year fixed mortgage. Both of them started at $400,000 each.


Speaker 3 (00:27:22) - You lock the 30 year at 4% and the 15 year was locked at 7%. Without exception, everybody runs to the 30 year at 4%. I would've done the same if I didn't know the math when in fact the reality is is that you will pay $40,000 more on that 4% 30 year than you would on the 7% 15 year because the amount of time that you're paying on that mortgage is greatly reduced. And that's, I guess a, an easy concept. It's a, the first step of trying to define this for most people, they can kind of see it in those terms because they understand the amortized mortgage. It's the amount of time that you are paying interest. So if you're utilizing your depository checking savings and your mortgage and all of that money is going in there month after month before it's going back out the door for whatever your living expenses are. And then whatever's left over is, is stays in there. 24 7 access. Nothing changes about your current banking techniques or or strategies. It's all the same. But now you're in control. You've become your own bank. It's amazing. I can't say enough about it


Speaker 0 (00:28:24) - Talking about the all in one loan there. You sure can learn more from Ridge on that. Jaylee, is there really like anything else that I guess is noteworthy specifically in helping a borrower qualify for income property loans, maybe a common problem or a borrower hurdle that you see in there at Ridge?


Speaker 3 (00:28:43) - I would just boil it down to education. Just lack of information. It's not dear Google stuff. The guidelines and what's available. All of these things are changing on a consistent basis that real-time information's not available to them. So if I had to pick one thing, I would just say education. And I'm very proud to say that we really focus on that. If there's a value add about Ridge, I think there's quite a few. But the one that I think sticks out for most people is the education that we provide to our investors and shining a light and giving them a look under the hood and what they need to know, teaching 'em how to optimize their qualifications and all of the stuff that we've been talking about here today.


Speaker 0 (00:29:19) - Well that's a good point because when we talk about real estate investing, you're really, they're in one of the more dynamic and fast-changing parts of the industry as opposed to something like home construction where a lot of the methods haven't changed for 50 or more years, if you will. So yeah, it's really staying up and staying informed on that and engaging with a lot of the educational resources increasingly that Ridge has for you to help you stay on top of that as an income property bar yourself. And Shaley can tell us a bit more about that shortly. But why don't you tell us about all of the loan types, the mortgage products if you will, that you offer in there.


Speaker 3 (00:29:52) - That's another great value add about us. We have a very diverse menu, if you will, of loan products that don't just start and stop with the conventional. We're not a one size fits all. So we've got the Fannie Freddy's, we talk about that a lot. Our all in one, my favorite. We have a very diverse non QM product line and for those that aren't familiar with that term, QM stands for Qualified Mortgage. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are the, uh, epitome the definition of what a qualified mortgage is. There's a whole definition we don't need to go into today, but, so everything outside of that QM is now non qm. And within non qm, like I said, extremely diverse. There's things called the debt service coverage ratio product where we're not showing borrower income, we're just looking at the properties income offset by the new mortgage payment. There's bank statement products. If you can't show tax returns, we're gonna take deposits and average them asset depletion. If you've got large self-directed ira, we can come up with an income calculation for that. The list goes on. We've got commercial products for commercial properties, but also for residential properties. Cross collateralization. It's pretty diverse. We have a lot for everybody.


Speaker 0 (00:30:54) - When you excel in there, you've been such industry leaders at originating income property loans for investors were proportion of your businesses income property loans and what proportion is primary residence loans?


Speaker 3 (00:31:06) - A lot of people don't realize we can do both and we do both very well. But I would say that it's probably 70 30 not owner-occupied. To owner-occupied. A large part of what we do is the investor loans. But most of our investor clients come to us for their primary needs too because we already have their life on file and, and can get that done very competitively


Speaker 0 (00:31:24) - Too. , right? And you keep growing. You're in almost all 50 states now.


Speaker 3 (00:31:27) - I know. Can you believe it? We're in 47 states. We're not in North Dakota, New York, or Vermont, otherwise we're everywhere.


Speaker 0 (00:31:34) - Letter audience know how they can learn about your resources.


Speaker 3 (00:31:37) - There's a couple ways to find us our website, ridge lending They can email us, info ridge linen Our toll free is 8 5 5 74 Ridge 8 5 5 7 4 7 4 3 4 3. And while you're on our website gang, uh, check us out on our community. I have a live event every Tuesday, one 30 Pacific, uh, four 30 Eastern. Uh, lots of good information register and it's free. Lots of good information and, and education like we've been talking about here. Hope to see you.


Speaker 0 (00:32:05) - Oh, it's been a terrific and crucial mortgage market update. Chaley Ridge, thanks so much for coming back into the


Speaker 3 (00:32:11) - Show. Thank you. Appreciate it.


Speaker 0 (00:32:18) - Oh yeah, lots of good concise information there from Chaley. It's a type of content that can have you hitting the rewind button on your pod catcher at times. All right, so we learned that in a lot of scenarios there. Second, mortgages come with rather high interest rates that is prohibitive. But then on the other side, it's encouraging to learn, learn that on primary residences, for example, you can get up to 90% loaned value. That means you only need to keep 10% equity in your home. And as far as that all in one loan simulator, we'll put a link directly to that in the show notes for you. But like Chaley said, you might wanna reach out to and then they can help walk you through it. Thank you to Caeli for the generous contribution to your learning today. Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Don't quit your daydream.


Speaker 5 (00:33:15) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial, or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests on their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education L l C exclusively.


Speaker 6 (00:33:43) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for Wealth building. Get rich

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Grandpa told me to save money and buy a fixer-upper. What about paying off my mortgage ASAP?

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Changing attitudes towards debt and savings began with high inflation in the 1970s. 

I compare global home prices and their changes since 2010. 

Projects for $300K starter homes are going extinct in America.

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**Speaker 1** (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE! I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, learn why I rejected my grandpa's advice about debt and real estate. Global home prices have surged not just since 2020, but really for the last decade plus. How does America compare to the world there? Then the real estate market heats up in Florida. All today on Get Rich Education,

**Speaker 2** (00:00:28) - You are listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.


**Speaker 1** (00:00:51) - Hey, welcome to GRE from England's White Cliffs of Dover to Dover, Delaware, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Wein. Hold. This is Get Rich Education. The fact that you want to get lots of good real estate debt, even now that real estate interest rates are off their all time lows from a couple years ago and really most all interest rates. You know, I think to the lay person, it is one of those things that is easy to understand and yet hard to accept to get more debt. Since Americans have near record equity levels. Now, not enough people even ask where that equity came from. I mean, look, you probably don't have a big equity chunk in your home because you paid it down. You have fat equity in your home because it increased in value. Yeah, that's leverage, which was brought into existence by debt. Now lay people can understand that, but yet it's hard to accept that truth.


**Speaker 3** (00:01:59) - What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points. And may God have mercy on your soul.


**Speaker 1** (00:02:26) - <laugh>. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's from an old school movie, Billy Madison from 1995. But did you ever get a reaction or a look like that when you shared abundantly minded G R E principles with them? <laugh>, debt free doesn't make sense. The wealthiest people have the most debt. The wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world has the most debt. But some people will still clinging to old ways of thinking. They'll rationalize that debt is bad now because we'll say interest rates aren't as low as they used to be. All right, true. Well, also on the flip side, debt is better when inflation is high because it debases that debt. Inflation and interest rates tend to move in lockstep. So therefore, weather interest rates are high or low. That line of thinking cancels out. And of course, 10 is keep debasing your debt by paying down your principle for you no matter how inflation and interest rates are moving.


**Speaker 1** (00:03:27) - And this all plays into how I was taught to think about money myself growing up, including the influence of my own grandfather. And I would go on to reject my grandpa's advice as a kid. Grandpa told me to save money. You certainly heard that growing up when I was about 20, I was visiting my grandparents on college break. And I still remember when grandpa told me that when it's time for me to buy my first house, I should buy a fixer upper. And though he never told me this next thing, he probably would've encouraged me to pay off your mortgage fast. I bet he would've said that one. Well, he meant well. And though I didn't deliberately spur him, I have gone on to disregard all of my late grandpa's financial guidance. He was a great guy. Grandpa served in a war. He and grandma raised my mom and uncle in a small, simple farmhouse on a 13 acre farm in rural Berks County, Pennsylvania.


**Speaker 1** (00:04:31) - And besides raising livestock and growing crops, he was an electrician by trade. He was an even tempered guy with a wiry frame. And grandpa taught me how to fish for bass in their small farm pond, all with his usual thin smile. And he had a wooden trademark kind of toothpick, pursed between his lips a lot of times. But see, grandpa was born and raised in a pre 1971 world. His concept of money was shaped before Nixon deg the dollar from the gold standard. And as we know, inflation ran rampant after Nixon D pegged the dollar from gold. And then in the 1980s, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, they began to sharply manipulate the way that the consumer price index that had line inflation figure is calculated. They used waiting tricks and other tricks to make the soaring inflation figure appear smaller than reality. Well, I was born and raised in a post 1971 world, so rather than focus on saving money, I want to get out of dollars before they're debased by inflation.


**Speaker 1** (00:05:42) - I never bought a fixer upper home though I truly admire grandpa for it. I didn't have the D iy, an electrical skillset that he did that just didn't come naturally to me. And now admittedly, and at its worst, maybe you can say that I'm part of the reason that Americans are less resourceful, or rather, perhaps American life is better. Or maybe it's that with progress, we're all specialists. Now I'd rather pay more for a home that's already new or renovated This way I spend my time, that zero sum game resource of time. I can spend that on my best and highest use and not texturing drywall and not hanging cabinets and not laying tile. I borrow dollars, not save them on rentals, both tenants and inflation payback the debt. So inflation flips dollars upside down, and grandpa might not believe how iconoclastic I sound. Now, the heresy today, I borrow invest and own assets that create residual cash flow.


**Speaker 1** (00:06:53) - And I would even spend dollars in some cases before they're debased. And along the way, I provide contractors and service providers with work. I employ an ongoing property manager and I provide families with good housing. I doubt the grandpa knew about how debt compounds the power of financial leverage. There's something good to be said for hard work, you know? And my grandfather showed me that on the farm, maintaining the tractor, loading the coal bin, harvesting crops and feeding the chickens. I mean, dude was amazing. He was like the showy otani of skillset diversification. But the world changed over the long term. Today's abundance mindset beats grandpa's grind. I love him for wanting the best for me. Grandpa never wavered on that. Ultimately, really, he equipped me to learn what's best for me and what's best for others. And I know I'm preaching to the choir here because our Instagram stories poll about paid off properties.


**Speaker 1** (00:07:58) - It asked you this question, which one do you prefer to pay off your home A S A P, or to leverage up and don't pay it off? Okay? How do you think that result went? Well, the percent that said pay off your home ASAP P was only 16. And those that said leverage up and don't pay it off is 84%. Yeah, you get it. 84% would rather leverage up and keep borrowing against it rather than pay it off your own home is some of the best debt you can get low rates, fixed rates along payback period, and you can legally kind of reneg and go get a lower rate when they fall as well. And mortgage terms are not quite as good on your rental properties, but they are still advantageous when you go compare that. And you know, really another way to think about it is, if you've got a 500 K home, why would you tie up 500 K in your home?


**Speaker 1** (00:09:05) - You could perhaps have just 100 K tied up in that home or in that rental property. Now, I've talked to you before about how many advanced world economies, foreign nations, they have house prices that vastly exceed prices in the United States. Canada's home prices are almost fully doubled that of us home prices right now. Well, I've got some great stats here. They are sourced by the bank for international settlements on not the international house prices this time, but how those prices have changed since 2010. Okay? So what we're looking at here is 2010 all the way up through Q2 of last year. So 2010 all the way up to the middle of last year. And these are all inflation adjusted. So we're talking about a change in real prices. US property was up 63% in that time, basically about the last 12 years. But the United States is not one of the top 10 countries for home price growth over that period.


**Speaker 1** (00:10:10) - And here those countries are number one for growth is Iceland at 103%. Second is Estonia at 97%. Third for world home price growth is New Zealand at 97% as well. Chill at 95% Turkey, 91% Canada up 90%, the top 10 for home price growth are rounded out by Luxembourg, Hong Kong, Hungary, and Israel. They're all between 80 and 85% inflation adjusted price growth over those about 12 years. So they're all greater than the United States, which again was up just 63% over that long period. That makes American home value seem somewhat cheaper when you think of it through that perspective. America is the envy of the real estate world. It's not just our rule of law and high property ownership rights and strong diverse economy. It's that it's one of the few places in the world where you can lever up this much and still get cash flow and at these terrifically advantaged debt term terms.


**Speaker 1** (00:11:19) - And on the flip side, now we look at the worst nations for price appreciation over the last 12 years. It is a story of price contraction. Prices have dropped in these nations. Okay, so these are the worst five. And let's see if you can guess at what all five of these have in common. Those five worst are Spain, Romania, Italy, Greece and Russia. Russia being the worst at minus 33% inflation adjusted house prices. And yeah, do you know what all five of these nations have in common? All five are losing population and losing the real estate prices with them. All right, well what about the United States? How does our population growth look for the future? What we are just about surpassing the one third of a billion people mark. Now we'll have 336 million people by the end of this year. And over the next 30 years, we're expected to have a population increase from 336 million this year up to 373 million Zen 30 years from now.


**Speaker 1** (00:12:34) - And the proportion from immigration is expected to increase while the proportion from the birth rate wanes. And of course, this contributes to the growing renter society in America because people have a harder time affording the entry level home. And you know, really the entry level home threshold that is now largely considered to be right about $300,000. Yeah, that's about two thirds of the value of today's median priced home and housing market research firms Zda. They tracked home prices and home projects across the country and they found, as you might expect, that the share of new projects for homes under $3,000 is declining rapidly all across the country. From Texas to California to Colorado to Ohio, they are vanishing everywhere. 300 K homes aren't just being diminished in creation, they're just completely gone from a lot of markets. Now this share of projects under 300 K are just completely non-existent.


**Speaker 1** (00:13:46) - Yeah. Now coming in at 0% of the market for Riverside and San Bernardino, California. Now of course coastal California, new 300 K homes, they are long gone. But Riverside and San Bernardino, they're about 50 miles inland. They're less expensive markets. Those properties are gone there in Sacramento, they are gone in Denver, 300 k properties are gone. So the swath of non-existent new build 300 k single family homes is growing and increasingly just nowhere to be found. But we have found a place where these properties do still exist in. It's in an American in migration. Hotbed straight ahead, listen to our in-house chat about this and the overall warming temperature of the real estate market and a cool upcoming Jerry event to tell you about where I'd love to see you there. I'm Keith Reinhold. This is G R e with jwb Real Estate Capital. Jacksonville Real Estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor since 2013. J W B is ready to help your money make money, and to make it easy for everyday investors, get slash gre. That's jwb real


**Speaker 1** (00:15:23) - GRE listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 4 2 0 56. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plexes. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Chaley Ridge personally. They'll even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio.


**Speaker 4** (00:15:56) - This is Rich Dad advisor, Ken McElroy. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Wine Hold and don't quit your daydream.


**Speaker 1** (00:16:14) - Hey, well I'd like to welcome in GRE's in-house investment coach in Naresh. Now maybe you've never bought a property out of state before and for almost a year and a half, he has personally one-on-one been helping you with that and with your overall investment strategy. And then he gets you matched up with the right financing and direction in actual property addresses through G rre marketplace. And he does that for you free. Hey Naresh, welcome back outta the show.


**Speaker 6** (00:16:41) - Hey, thanks Keith. It's been a while, but looking forward to talking about this great real estate market.


**Speaker 1** (00:16:46) - You are often dealing directly with the providers and you also know what buyers are looking for too, our audience. So just talk to us about the overall state of the income property market today.


**Speaker 6** (00:16:56) - Yeah, well I want to go back a few months and talk about how the market was a few months ago and how it is today. Because I think you can really talk about how things are going, but when it's compared to something else. So if we go back a few months to let's say November, 2022, so this was pretty recent, we're talking about five months ago or so. Yes. The activity in the real estate buying process, just real estate in general building the activity was slim. There were very few people contacting me. There were, if you look at the publicly listed data, there was definitely a slowdown. If people were to look at their own properties and look at a chart of their property values, they'll see that there was uh, a plummeting of asset values. And that was November, 2022. And what's happened since then, because the Federal Reserve, as you've talked about, has slowly hiked up interest rates and interest rates have gone up, mortgage rates have gone up.


**Speaker 6** (00:17:59) - What happened is sellers, agents, wholesalers, brokers, builders, they didn't wanna see a crash. And what they did was they started honing up some of their own capital to incentivize buyers to make up for that higher interest rate. So now we fast forward from November where there was no activity. I mean literally we had zero activity at G R E, not even a single inquiry on a property. So we've gone from that to providers providing incentives like, Hey, the price is negotiable. This is just sticker price. Let's negotiate like we're at a car dealership to free property management for one year or even two years, or free home insurance for one year or two years or 2% closing cost credits or X amount of X thousand dollars off closing costs. The incentives go on and on and on. These were not available in 2022 because we saw a super hot real estate market with a ton of buyers all of a sudden turn into a dead real estate with no buyers.


**Speaker 6** (00:19:11) - So people who are concerned with the state of the real estate market right now, they might say, oh, you know, the interest rates are so high, these incentives cut down on that interest rate. So your lender may quote you for a 25% down payment. And that's the other thing, because of the market we're in, 25% is the best you're gonna get paying no points. If you pay 20% down, now you're gonna have to pay points to buy down that rate and, and those points don't go towards your equity, you're just buying down the rate. So anyway, with that being said, for 25% down with these incentives, we're now looking at the mid to high five. So five and a five to 5.9% interest rate, which is, I mean we're at 20 18, 20 19 levels at that point. So the state of the real estate market is still very strong.


**Speaker 6** (00:20:03) - It's healthy. There's a lot of activity now with buyers, with investors, home builders. We work with a ton of builders. They're essentially trying to sell off all the builds that they were permitted for three years ago, two years ago. So builders aren't building as much as they were like after the lockdowns were lifted in 2020 and they started building like crazy. And this has again, increased the demand of housing where they built a lot and now they're not building, they're just looking to sell what they currently have that hasn't been sold yet. So with an influx of people, we're seeing a baby boom. We have politicians talking about a bigger baby boom within the coming years and more immigration that only increases a demand for housing. So yes, right now is still an excellent, excellent time to buy. November of last year, not so much. But right now, yes,


**Speaker 1** (00:20:57) - It's a paradox with this nationwide dearth of housing supply and knowing that that problem is even more chronic in the entry level space that make the best rentals. Considering those factors, you would think that builders and providers wouldn't need to offer any incentive at all. But they have been recently. Some of them are continuing because of what's gone on in the mortgage market and with mortgage rates. So really that's nationally. And then talk to us about the geographies that we work in that tend to be in the Southeast and Midwest and in the inland northeast.


**Speaker 6** (00:21:35) - Yeah. Well first off, I, I wanna say that we work with a ton. Not all of our partners or providers are offering incentives, but I would say we just happen to work with a majority of them. So if you're listening and you're like, huh, he said a rent guarantee or a two years free property management or free closing costs, if these strike a fancy, then definitely reach out to me because I can share with you the best properties offering such and senates. And these are older properties, these are new construction. There are no more pre-construction that we're dealing with. Cuz like I said, pre-construction is, so two years ago, three years ago, those pre-construction properties are now available for sale and for closing within 30 days. So reach out to me, NAI, and A R E S h I get rich if these interests you.


**Speaker 6** (00:22:28) - Now, as far as who we work with, like who's offering such great deals, what markets we, Keith are still seeing, I would identify two particular markets in southeast South, if you wanna say the south eastern part of the United States. So number one, all of Florida, Florida is still the hottest market that we're dealing with. Our providers are all offering big incentives and we're seeing homes rented really quickly because as you've covered, Florida has become a hotspot along with Texas as a destination over the past three years. And that continues to be the trend. In fact, Ocala, Florida, which we have tons of properties available in Ocala, Florida, brand new constructions, even quads, many of our buyers are so hungry for quads because it's the closest thing to multi-family. And we finally have quads available in a market like Jacksonville, Florida, Ocala, Florida, San Antonio, Texas.


**Speaker 6** (00:23:29) - We have a quad available there. That's a really hot market as well. But I want to bring up Ocala, Florida because U-Haul, the famous trucking transportation company U-Haul has a very good pulse on where people are moving, where their rentals are being rented, right? And the number one destination they found for the year 2022 was Ocala, Florida. So that's an area, it's the world has equestrian headquarters, the largest retirement community in the world is a half an hour away from there. So you have a ton of people servicing these very wealthy elderly people to 55 and up community. So a lot of healthcare, a lot of service industry. You have a lot of it jobs, engineering jobs, because Gainesville, which is home to the University of Florida is only 40 minutes away. And Ocala is more affordable than living in that retirement community is called the Villages very pricey because it's like its own world over there.


**Speaker 6** (00:24:32) - I've been there a couple of times. And then Gainesville also is quite pricey with the university and with the tech community there. So Ocala has become the next biggest city that's not completely rural farmland that has any sense of modernity. And so yes, I'm identifying all of Florida, specifically Ocala, but then also Memphis, Tennessee for older rehabbed properties, both Memphis, Tennessee and Little Rock, Arkansas. We're seeing a lot of activity there because they are lower priced entry level homes. They're rehab properties, fully rehab, turnkey, gutted. So these are properties anywhere from a hundred to $150,000 in Memphis and about 120 to 170,000 in Little Rock. So we work with a provider there who has a lot of inventory and they are also offering some pretty incredible incentives that our other partners in Memphis are not offering. That includes two years closing cost credit. That includes free property management for two years. And it also includes a mortgage guarantee. So if they're not able to rent out your property, they will pay your mortgage for you until they find a tenant who will uh, tenant that property.


**Speaker 1** (00:25:51) - Ah, somewhat different than the rent guarantee that sometimes we hear about where they will pay the market rent for you if you don't have a tenant in the property, but it's paying your mortgage for you.


**Speaker 6** (00:26:00) - Exactly. So you just send them your mortgage bill and, and they will pay it. But I will say the reason why they offer this is because they're putting their money where their mouth is. They're so confident that they will, that both Little Rock and Memphis, just like Florida, have become very strong places for people to move to because they're affordable. And you want to be buying real estate in affordable places because A, it's affordable for you and B, it's gonna be affordable for your tenants, which means you're gonna have a greater tenant pool to fill that property.


**Speaker 1** (00:26:31) - Yeah, so Memphis and Little Rock, some of the most affordably priced cash flowing markets in the nation. And yes, these prices, 100 to 150 K for you Californians and New Jerseyans and New Yorkers. We're not talking about the down payment, we're talking about the total purchase price of a home in a safe neighborhood that can attract a respectable tenant in places like Memphis and Little Rock. And then when it comes to Texas and Florida, you mentioned U-Haul, they put out annual reports where they actually give some really good migration data to the real estate market, but with all the in migration to places like Florida and Texas and the rest, sometimes I wonder how does U-Haul handle, like all their trucks end up in Jacksonville after a few months or all their trucks end up in a place like Ocala or Central Florida where so many people are moving. It's just interesting to think about what they do with that problem. They need to get all their trucks back out of places like that after all of the in migration. And because Florida, it really is so predictable that the in migration will continue. It's been such a long trend it picked up during the health crisis and we have an upcoming webinar in Florida. Tell us about that.


**Speaker 6** (00:27:44) - Yeah, well this is with one of our hottest Florida providers. They've been hot because of a special, you've mentioned it on your podcast, you've mentioned it in your newsletter. I've mentioned it in my communications with students and clients. They had a two plus two program of two years free property management plus 2% closing costs. But we're doing a webinar with them next week. It's going to be next Tuesday evening. If you go to g r e, g r e, you can find out about the webinar and also register for it. They've gotten rid of that two plus two program because they are unveiling a brand new promotion, a brand new program that is even better than the two plus two. So if you missed out on the two plus two, we're right now in this two and a half week period where there's no promotion and you have to pay retail price.


**Speaker 6** (00:28:44) - But if you stick through it, join us on the webinar next week. They are, like I said, they'll be announcing a brand new promotion that is the two plus two was an incredible, incredible program. I think this is way better than even the two plus two. So this is certainly exciting. They're gonna be coming on the webinar talking about Ocala like we just talked about. They have built the quads in Ocala that we have available. They've built duplexes, single families, and not just in Ocala but all around Florida. And they are offering incentives and discounts to sell these properties. So highly recommend people. Check out G r e to register for that webinar next Tuesday evening.


**Speaker 1** (00:29:29) - All right. And for our group attendees on our webinar there, you're gonna have incentives for these new Build Florida properties, oftentimes single family homes up to four plexes and larger that are even better than the 2% closing cost cash at the table for you. And even better than that two years free property management. They are gonna roll that out to you at the webinar next week that you want to be sure to attend. We'd really like to see you there. That is our live event on Tuesday, May 2nd at 8:30 PM Eastern, 5:30 PM Pacific. And the rest is starring in that one. It is completely free for you to attend and the benefit of you attending it in person is it is live. And you'll have a chance to ask questions and maybe we have another attendee that asks a question that you didn't think about asking. That's a really good question. So you can kind of crowdsource all the questions and ask a question yourself there at the live Do you have any last thoughts, Lorre?


**Speaker 6** (00:30:33) - Well, I will say this, one of the best parts about the webinar for serious buyers who are looking for that next deal is our provider will be providing the best deals they have available. So they're coming with two to three of their best deals. So this isn't one of those things where it's like, oh, you know, NAIA is just gonna send me an email after and I'll see everything. Or I'll watch the webinar replay. Yes, there will be a webinar replay, but the chances of those two deals being sold out during the webinar are extremely high because of the incentives and the deals that the provider is providing. So I highly recommend try to make it live. You want to get in on these deals. Uh, if you miss the webinar, hey, not to worry, we're going to have the replay. Maybe, uh, they'll have some other properties that are comparable, available for sale too. But you wanna be there live, get your questions out of the way and move quickly. Because our last webinar that we did, Keith for Baltimore, it was probably our best webinar yet. And we moved properties, we moved properties very quickly live on air. So that's why I just wanna let our listeners know, hey, things are really picking up in the real estate market. Again, things are picking up at G R E, so you don't wanna be left behind.


**Speaker 1** (00:31:51) - These are attractive incentives for path of Progress Florida, usually new build properties for you next week. Again, at G R E This is exciting stuff. Thanks for sharing this with us and the rest.


**Speaker 6** (00:32:05) - Thank you, Keith. Always a pleasure.


**Speaker 1** (00:32:12) - Yeah, well, 25% down in buying your mortgage rate down into the fives creates some cash flow. But as you'll see a next week's live virtual event, it is going to get better than that purchase prices on these brand new single family homes. They're still below 300 k, still in the 200 s in some cases. Yes. These are the property types that are quickly vanishing. Naresh can find both the good deals for you with the national providers that are actually giving incentives like the ones that we talked about. And this is all despite the fact that the product that you're buying is in really short supply sets for income properties, single family rentals, up to four plexes in Jacksonville and Ocala and elsewhere in Florida. And now if you wanna get ahold of Naresh for the latest on GRE Marketplace Nationwide Properties and who has the best incentives, you can go to G rre and you can get free direction and coaching.


**Speaker 1** (00:33:17) - He would like to see you for next week's live event, though, besides just getting a solid fundamental education on what makes a durable income property market, Naresh and the Florida provider are gonna share with us just for webinar attendees, those even better than two and two in incentives for you. The incentives on the webinar. Yes sir. Even better than the 2% of your closing costs paid to you in cash and two years of free property management. Again, this is next Tuesday. It's May 2nd at 8:30 PM Eastern, 5:30 PM Pacific Naresh Stars. In this one. It is free to attend, get your questions answered, and get access to properties should you so choose. Be sure to sign up now while it's on your I'm your host, Keith Wein. Hold. Don't quit your daydream.


**Speaker 0** (00:34:15) - Nothing


**Speaker 7** (00:34:16) - On this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial, or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests on their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education L L C exclusively.


**Speaker 1** (00:34:44) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for Wealth building. Get rich

Direct download: GREepisode446_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

Keith Weinhold answers listener questions about real estate investing. 

He advises listeners on how many properties they need to own to become a millionaire, how to invest $40,000 to reach a $100,000 down payment for a rental property, and how to find the best future real estate markets. 

Keith emphasizes the importance of positive cash flow, avoiding over-leveraging, and owning properties in multiple job growth markets and states. 

He also discusses the potential for hyperinflation and the benefits of owning real assets to combat inflation. 

Keith encourages listeners to leave a rating and review for the podcast and consult with professionals for individualized advice.

**Taylor's question [00:01:07]**

How many properties must I own to become a millionaire? Keith explains that it depends on the profitability of the properties, how much they go up in value, and how much rent is charged.

 **Mitrel's question [00:05:04]**

Should I invest my $40,000 in the stock market to reach my $100,000 down payment goal for a rental property? Keith advises on risk tolerance and suggests alternative options such as I bonds.

**Kevin's question [00:09:08]**

What are the forward-looking indicators to find the best future real estate markets? Keith talks about the prospect of hyperinflation and provides insights on finding the best real estate markets.

**Forward Looking Indicators for Real Estate Markets [00:09:16]**

Keith answers Kevin's question about selecting MSAs with forward-looking indicators, including population growth, employment, and upcoming government infrastructure projects.

**Sponsor Ads [00:15:45]**

Keith thanks Ridge Lending Group, JWB Real Estate Capital, and Mid-South Home Buyers for sponsoring the show.

**House Hacking in Southern California [00:18:03]**

Keith advises Connor on whether to invest in an out-of-state rental or house hack in Southern California, considering high real estate prices, tax rates, and tenant protection laws.

**Real Estate Financing Options [00:19:03]**

Keith discusses financing options for single-family homes and fourplexes, including FHA and VA loans, and the advantages and disadvantages of house hacking in Southern California versus investing out-of-state.

**Hyperinflation and the US Economy [00:21:40]**

Keith addresses a listener's question about the possibility of hyperinflation in the US economy, defining hyperinflation and discussing the factors that contribute to it, including a nation's debt and foreign demand for its currency.

**Leverage in Real Estate Investing [00:25:00]**

Keith answers a listener's question about being over-leveraged in real estate investing, explaining the risks of taking on too much debt and emphasizing the importance of buying properties that are cash flow positive.

**Real Estate Investing Strategies [00:28:00]**

Keith explains how to avoid over-leveraging and how to project positive cash flow from day one.

**Benefits of High Leverage [00:29:09]**

Keith explains how high leverage can help you build wealth faster and why it's best to finance your properties.

**Encouragement to Leave a Podcast Review [00:30:07]**

Keith encourages listeners to leave a podcast review and explains how it helps the show reach more people.

**Disclaimer [00:31:32]**

A disclaimer is given that nothing on the show should be considered specific personal or professional advice.

Resources mentioned:

 Show Notes:


Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at:

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

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Welcome to GRE! I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. I answer your listener questions today. 


A 12-year-old listener asks, how many properties must I own to become a millionaire? 

Another asks, “Should my first property be a house hack or an out-of-state rental”? 


One question is about the imminent prospect of HYPERinflation.


Also, “What are FORWARD-looking indicators to find the best future RE markets?” Those questions and more questions all answered, today, on Get Rich Education!



Hey, welcome in to GRE. I’m your host and Founder, in fact, of this very show… and all Get Rich Education platforms, a 20-year REI and Active Member of the Forbes Real Estate Council. My name is Keith Weinhold. Ya probably know that by now.


This is Episode 445 of Get Rich Education.


When I do these listener question episodes, I generally begin with some of the more basic questions.


Today’s first question comes from Taylor in Wooster, Ohio. Taylor is age 12 and he simply asks:


How many properties must I own to become a millionaire?


Well, thanks for that, Taylor. I don’t often get questions from a 12-year-old. 


I love that you’re listening and the fact that you ARE greatly increases the chances of you building wealth when you’re an adult, yet young enough to enjoy it.


Like a lot of questions in real estate, the answer to how many properties you must own to become a millionaire “depends”.


It depends on how profitable your properties are - how much they go up in value and how much you’re getting from the rents that you charge the tenants, how long you do a good job of keeping them as tenants, as well as how capable you are of controlling your property’s expenses.


So, you could own as little as just ONE property and be a millionaire, Taylor.


Owning MORE properties is better than owning fewer properties. That way, if you have one that isn’t profitable, you’ll have profits from your others.  


And you can own more properties when you can use part of your OWN money & part the bank’s money… in owning the property.


Now, Taylor, if you have one million dollars, say, you had a million bucks in stacks stuffed in your closet, you need to understand that that is not enough. 


You’re 12 years old now. You might live another 80 years. Then you’d need that million to last you 80 years. 


Even a 50-year-old with a million dollar stack of dollars bills in their closet would not have enough money to live on for the rest of their life.


You might need closer to 10 million dollars. That’s called a decamillionaire. So think about setting your net worth target higher. Think, “How can I be a decamillionaire?”


But actually, you don’t just want to think about the height of your stack of dollar bills reaching any certain number of millions ONLY. It matters. But what matters more is how fast your stacks are GROWING.


That’s called cash flow. If your stacks are growing at a rate every year that exceeds all of your expenses, you are financially-free. That’s why it beats being debt-free.


Another thing, Taylor, I know that your hometown of Wooster, Ohio is between Columbus and Akron so - though I’m not familiar with Wooster - but I do know its the county seat of Wayne County - 


…you do tend to have markets nearby that can create CF really well - that’s that ability to GROW your cash stacks, hopefully to a height of 10 million someday. 


Thanks for your question, Taylor.


You know, it warms my heart to know that kids listen to the show. I remember shortly after launching the show in 2014 that a Dad & son from New Jersey wrote in and told us that they look forward to listening to the show together every week. 


I like to do that family-friendly show, from Day 1. A clean lyrics show since inception.


I like to keep it classy. I like to make that show that would make my late Grandma Weinhold proud - though I don’t think she ever knew how to listen to this show.


That’s part of my brand… and it warms my heart to see children in the audience. 



The next question comes from Mitrel. I don’t know where Mitrel is from, because some questions come in on our YouTube Channel, but he says…


I have a good job and $40,000 in savings, expect an upcoming BOOM in real estate and need $100,000 for a down payment. 


Does it make sense to gamble my $40K in the high risk stock market to get up to the $100K sooner and capitalize on the RE purchase?


If I lose the $40K, I’ll recover it in time with my job anyway over time.


If I win & get it to $100K, I’ll have my income property and be off to the races with leverage and Real Estate Pays 5 Ways.


If I simply tried to preserve the $40K in a savings account, I’d lose to inflation anyway.


That’s his question. Alright, Mitrel. You’ve got $40K, want to get to $100K for your down payment on some rental property. 


Now, we have properties at GRE Marketplace where $30 or $35K is enough to get started… but with your $100K down payment goal, I sense that you might have a specific purchase in mind.


Of course, it’s about getting a 20-25% down payment + 4% CCs  - as a percent of your purchase price - and you’ll want to hold some reserves.


Well, to get your cash stash from $40K up to $100K, it has to do with your risk tolerance.


It sounds like you’re open to risk with putting it in the stock market short-term to try to reach your goal faster.


So, yeah. You would probably want to do that OUTSIDE of a retirement account since they generally have early withdrawal penalties.


In a savings account, yes, you’re aware that with true inflation, that would just debase your savings’ purchasing power.


If you’re open to risk, I guess one could get in & out of crypto at just the right time - if you do that, I’d choose bitcoin.


But you know, whether you go with risky stocks or risky bitcoin, the problem with that is that you have to get your timing right twice.


Ideally, whether it’s a Russell 2000 Index Fund or Apple Stock or Ethereum, you want to buy close to a near-term low and then sell close to a near-term high.


That is more difficult to do than it sounds, and it’s just one reason that stock, ETF, and mutual fund investors don’t build wealth. 


One other thing I’ll mention as you’re trying to patch together your first RE down payment is I-bonds. They currently pay a guaranteed 7%. 


The way they work is that the interest rate they pay you is the CPI Inflation rate plus a fixed rate on top of that.


You can get I-bonds at


But there is a $10,000 annual limit that you can put into I-bonds. 


Another disadvantage is that I bonds can't be purchased and held in a traditional or Roth IRA, Mitrel. The I- bonds have to be held in a taxable account. 


But that might work for you in this case, Mitrel, since it’s a shorter-term hold, hopefully it’s shorter-term anyway, until you’ve built up your $100K cash to get your RE and get off to the races, hopefully getting paid 5 ways.


Another disadvantage of I bonds is there is an interest penalty if they’re redeemed for cash in the first five years. They knock off 3 months of your earned interest.


I hope that you found at last one insight on those options that helps you out, Mitrel. 



The next question comes from Kevin. He asked this one quite a while ago.


[Listener question played]


3) What are the forward-looking indicators to select MSAs? He typically looks at population growth and employment. 


That is a rather astute question, Kevin. Yes, you’re looking at some of the right measures for the tide that floats a RE market up. 


First, we want to think about landlord-friendly states. Yes, the MW & South has a preponderance of them. But there are some outliers. You’ll also find pretty favorable eviction processes for LLs in PA, TX and AZ.


When it comes to forward-looking RE indicators and their sources, first, let me give you two resources that most everyone knows about, then we’ll drill deeper. 

The NAR publishes forecasts for home sales, prices, and other market trends. Their reports give you future RE market insight at both the national and local level.

Zillow offers forecasts too on the housing market, including home values, rents, and other market indicators.

Now, one indicator and one place that a lot of people don’t know where to look, Kevin, is your ability to discover upcoming government infrastructure programs.

Think about learning where the next new highway intersection or highway interchange will be built. Or perhaps it’s a new seaport expansion project or a new bridge that is going to be built in 5 years.

There are a lot of places where you can find out that information ahead of time, and unlike stock investing, it’s completely legal - totally alright - to learn about this ahead of time. 

Get a heads up on where the next bridge is going to be built and how that can make nearby property values rise - that’s not considered illegal insider information.

You can check the websites of government agencies responsible for upcoming infrastructure development in your target state or region. 

That area’s, say, Department Of Transportation makes this public so that contractors can engage in the bidding process for major infrastructure projects. These are known as government PROCUREMENT websites.

For example, in Illinois, that’s under an website.

Those sources can be kinda wonky & dry, but putting in the work over there can help you see the future.

Now, major news outlets, and just regular, old school, legacy media television channels like good ol’ WPHL in Philadelphia or KMSP Minneapolis or anywhere, they often report on upcoming projects and government initiatives, like an airport expansion.

Now, if you happen to LIVE in an investor-advantaged area, Kevin, well and you do, Dayton, Ohio.

Joining an “in real life” industry association that focuses on infrastructure development can really give you direction & foresight and you’ll grow your network too.

That’ll give you access to upcoming projects - as will attending public meetings like town hall meetings.

And then finally, the US Census Bureau and other sources make all kinds of population projections. That helps you see the future. 


And hey, you might as well use the Census’ resources since your tax dollars are paying for it.


And those industry associations and public meetings often use & apply those population projections to upcoming major projects.


So, there’s more, but that’s a good bit there. I hope that helps you, Kevin. 


Today, I am bringing you the show from Anchorage, Alaska.


Next week, it’ll be from Las Vegas, Nevada.


And in two weeks, I’ll be bringing you the show from Phoenix, Arizona.


So, Anchorage, Las Vegas, and Phoenix. That is the largest city in the 49th, 36th, and 48th states admitted to the union respectively. 


Only a remorseless geography nerd like me would break it down that way, wouldn’t I?


Yes, we’ll be constructing makeshift, mobile GRE recording studios coming up.


If you’ve got a question that you’d like me to answer, go to That’s where you can either write a message, or leave a voice message listener question - like Kevin did.


I answer more of your listener questions next. I’m KW. You’re listening to Episode 445 of Get Rich Education.



Welcome back to Get Rich Education. I’m your host, Keith Weinhold, grateful to have you here.


Before we return to your listener questions… thanks to this week’s sponsors. They support us so, please, consider supporting them.


That is Ridge Lending Group. Consider YOUR next mortgage loan for income property there and see the difference that a lender that works specifically with investors like you… can make. 


They serve almost all 50 states. That’s President Caeli Ridge & all the good-looking people over there at


Then there’s JWB Real Estate Capital. Income property specialists that provide you with the actual investor-advantaged real estate that you can buy in bustling, fast-growing Jacksonville. 

That’s all-around good guy Gregg Cohen & the team at JWB. They always have good hair days over there. 


They really make it easy for you. Find your next cash flow property at


Finally, there’s Mid South Home Buyers, providing you some of the best rent ratios in the entire South in Memphis and Little Rock. 


They’ve got the service that you’ve been raving about for years now. 


That’s Terry Kerr, Liz Brody and all the fine peeps over there at MidSouth that shake your hand, look you in the eye, have a symmetrical smile, and even regularly recite your first name mid-sentence for ya. (Ha!)


Get started at


I have been inside the physical offices of all 3 of those sponsors that I just mentioned.


If your company is interested in advertising on GRE, let us know. We’d like to check you out first. Just like listener questions, you can also indicate that on the same page. Let us know at You’ll see the “Advertising Inquiry” area there.


Conner asked me a question. “Keith, absolutely love your videos. I live in expensive Southern California (Orange County). Would you recommend my first property be a primary that I house hack or invest in an out-of-state rental?” Thanks, Connor.


OK, Connor. Well, there’s a lot to consider.


Let’s look at the Socal househack.


As you’re surely already aware, real estate prices and tax rates are both very high in California. 


California also has a Tenant Protection Act enacted in 2019 that puts strict eviction laws into place. You might have rent control there too.


Now, as a SoCal househacker, that could, of course, take the form of buying one big SFH where you live in one of the rooms and rent out the other rooms.


The younger you are, the more likely it is that you’re tolerant of living with roommates. If you want to stay alone or with your spouse or whatever & want privacy, then you’ll househack a duplex, triplex, or fourplex.


Any one of those, SFH up to 4-plex, you can use an FHA loan on and pay just 3.5% down, or VA loan if you have VA benefits and pay 0% down. With either of those low down payment programs, you must live ON-SITE, usually for at least a year.


FHA recently approved 40-year mortgage loans and they will roll out next month. Yes!


In Orange County, CA, with really high prices, it might take a fixer-upper type home to make it affordable. If you aren’t handy, that’s a disadvantage on the house hack.


Socal is simply one of the most DISadvantaged places in the nation for long-term rental property, though there are still ways to make it work.


Then, if you go out of state, you can make it really passive. It won’t be a more active business like it would there for ya in Orange County.


Now, the downside of buying an out-of-state rental, like through GRE Marketplace, is that it’s going to take a 20 to 25% down payment.


But you can still find respectable properties in safe neighborhoods, in say, Memphis for as little as $100K to $120K. That means you might not have to come out of pocket for much more than you would a SoCal rental with it’s lower PERCENT down payment.


And, of course, the big advantages of the out-of-state rental are low purchase prices, high rents, advantageous LL-tenant law, your property is already renovated or brand new, and it is turnkey PMed if you so choose.


That’s exactly why a lot of people are choosing out-of-state properties at GREMarketplace. 


Those are some of the major trade-offs, Connor. Thanks for the question.


The next question comes from Jesse in Reno, Nevada.


“With high inflation for two years and cyclical trends entrenched, more nations making foreign trade deals outside of the dollar, and the Treasury printing dollars like mad, I cannot believe the price for a shopping cart full of groceries at Safeway any more. Are we headed for a hyperinflationary period within the next decade?”


Well, that’s an interesting question, Jesse. Inflation is an awful malady that disproportionately affects the lower classes more than the upper classes.


But do I believe that there’s any significant chance of hyperinflation in the next decade, Jesse? Let me answer that.


Now, first of all, a lot of people - not necessarily you, Jesse - but a lot of people throw around the term “hyperinflation” without really knowing what it means at all. 


A consensus of economists define HYPERinflation as an inflation rate of 50% or more every month. Yes, month. 


With compounding, that would be inflation of more than 600% per year, not the… closer to 6% CPI inflation that we’ve had lately.


We could very well have longer-term waves of RECURRING inflation.


In America, our debt-to-GDP ratio is high. It’s about 120% right now. Back in 1990, it was just 55%.


Now our debt-to-GDP ratio also hit 120% back in the 1940s, but that was as a result of us having to pay for WWII. And the productivity of the 1950s quickly brought the ratio down.


Here’s the problem. Today’s 120% is not due to war; it’s due to all these politicians’ various accumulated promises over time. 


That includes CONTINUOUS military spending.


And you know, historically, every fiat currency ends with the END of that currency. Every single one goes to die. The British pound is the world’s OLDEST currency in use today.


But to get hyperinflation, it generally takes two key factors:


First, a nation needs to have debts denominated in a currency that that nation can’t print. 


Now, for emerging markets, its often dollar-based debt that they have and those nations can’t print dollars. 


100 years ago, Weimar Germany had gold-based war reparations. That was their problem. 


You cannot print gold, so they printed MASSIVE amounts of their currency. In more modern times, Venezuela and Zimbabwe experienced hyperinflation.


The second key reason hyperinflation occurs is when there’s no foreign demand for your currency… so you hyperinflate it.


So, to create hyperinflation, it takes a tremendous amount of printing… plus no demand for that currency. 


The US still has foreign demand for our dollar and there’s a lot of debt denominated in the dollar globally. That represents demand for it.


Since the US can print its own currency, we’re not very likely to default on our total of $32T debt at all. 


We’re motivated to let inflation keep running, at whatever fluctuating rate, Jesse.


So to answer your question, Jesse, no. No hyperinflation in the US in the next decade.


And as far as the prolonged elevated inflation that we’re having, as a listener, I think you know how to beat that by now. Own real assets. 

If you own a house, have a 30-year mortgage. Don’t have it “paid off”. You need a mortgage to benefit most. Thanks for the question, Jesse.


Our last question comes from Zack in Claremore, Oklahoma. Zack asks:


Keith, is there such a thing as being “OVER leveraged?” Would you finance everything you can as long as you can create arbitrage?


Great question, Zack. The short answer is, “Yes, I would. I would finance everything up as much as I could without being overleveraged.”


Now, what “overleveraged” means IN GENERAL - out in the larger business world is that you’ve borrowed too much money in relation to your ability to pay it back.


In real estate, being overleveraged means that you take on so much debt that you can’t make your monthly payments on your principal, interest, and operating expenses.


As long as my properties are cash flow positive, even by a little margin, I have found no limit as to how much I would finance, Zack.


Let me use an example. Say that you buy a rental duplex with $4,000 of monthly rent income. Your mortgage and all of your long-term operating expenses are $5,000, leaving you with a NEGATIVE cash flow hole of $1,000 every month. 


A $1,000 per month hole is a $12,000 each year hole that you’ve dug. 


If you’re financially precarious elsewhere, that can be a difficult hole to fill in and you could descend into delinquency when you miss your first payment, then deeper into foreclosure when you’re several months behind, then the bank takes over your property. 


You lose your property, lose your credit score, and lose the ability to get new loans for years. You were overleveraged.


You’ve borrowed too much money in relation to your ability to pay it back since your rent income was $4,000 and expenses were $5,000.


Well, when you buy right, that’s not likely to happen. First of all, your mortgage loan underwriter is going to check that you have enough income and enough reserves to meet their qualification standards before you can get the mortgage in the first place. 


That’s a check against becoming overleveraged, yet things could still go wrong.


For one thing, with FHA loans, your debt-to-income ratio can be an eye-popping maximum of 57% and you can still qualify for the loan.


But you’re usually going to be buying your out-of-state rental property with a CONVENTIONAL loan.


Now, INSTEAD of becoming overleveraged, you would buy in the opposite scenario, projecting positive cash flow from day one.


On your duplex instead, if you had just $4,200 of rent income and $4,000 of expenses, you’ve got just $200 of cash flow, but that is a cushion.


And like I’ve described on previous episodes, historically your rent income rises faster than your expenses since your mortgage P & I payment stays fixed.


That’s why, over time, you often widen that delta from +$200 cash flow so that it just keeps widening to a greater & greater cushion.


So, to review, you’re unlikely to find yourself overleveraged if your income exceeds your expenses on day 1, when you have predominantly FIXED RATE LOANS…


… and then another measure of protection is when you own properties in multiple job growth markets - in multiple STATES even - you’re better protected against any changes in the law or regulations or changes in that region’s economy or even any detrimental disruption to your PM in each of your chosen investment areas.


I dislike overleverage. But I do like HIGH leverage. Because leverage makes compound interest feel really slow. 


It is best to FINANCE your properties, even though mortgage rates aren’t as low as they were two years ago. 


Look at it this way. With 20% down, you could buy five financed properties instead of one all-cash. Over time, five properties appreciating will build you more wealth than one appreciating.


If the properties don’t cash flow with 20% down, then get three with 33% down on each. That’ll accelerate your wealth-building & help you control the mortgage.


Then… if rates go down, you can still refinance. If rates don’t go down, you’ll be glad that you bought multiple properties instead of one.


Thanks for the question, Zack.


I hope you enjoyed listener questions today. I hadn’t done them for a while. If you did, please, go ahead and tell a friend about the show.


Also, if you’ve ever wanted to tell me what you think about the show… there’s a great way for you to do that & I will see it and read it myself. 


You know, I recently learned that in Apple Podcasts Germany, we only have 3 podcast reviews in that entire nation on that platform. 


And that prompted me to ask you - whatever nation you're in, to please, you don’t have to, but if you’d be so kind, leave a podcast review. 


When you do that, it not only helps our show reach more people, but, I do actually read your review of the show, so I get that feedback.


So if you like what I’m doing here, I’d be grateful if you went ahead, and whatever your podcast platform is…


…Google “how to leave an Apple podcasts review” or “how to leave a Spotify review” and go ahead an do that - leave a rating & review for the Get Rich Education podcast and I’d be grateful. 


I hope you found one or more listener questions today that really relate to you or your interests, or YOUR unlimited wealth-building potential. Thanks in advance for telling a friend about the show, and for your rating & review.


Until next week, I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. Don’t Quit Your Daydream.


Direct download: GREepisode445_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

In this podcast episode, Keith Weinhold discusses the benefits of investing in stable property markets, the risks and benefits of taking out a second mortgage on a property, and the potential impact of remote work on the real estate market. 

Weinhold also touches on the performance of stocks and other asset classes in the first quarter of the year, highlighting the drawbacks of savings accounts, CDs, and money market funds, and suggesting that investing in real estate can be a better option. 

Overall, Weinhold emphasizes the importance of investing in stable markets with high rent ratios and strong landlord tenant laws.

**Real Estate Prices [00:03:39]**

Discussion of the current and future direction of real estate prices, with a recap of the benefits of investing in real estate.

**Tapping Equity [00:04:50]**

Explanation of the problem with tapping equity and the risks of taking out a second mortgage on a property.

**Second Mortgage [00:05:43]**

Explanation of how to add a second mortgage onto a property and access cash without refinancing the entire loan, with details on the 80% combined loan value ratio.

**Risks of Second Mortgage [00:07:49]**

Discussion of the risks of taking out a second mortgage, including interest rate fluctuations and the potential pitfall of borrowing short to go long.

**Second Mortgage Benefits and Risks [00:09:51]**

Discussion of the benefits and risks of taking out a second mortgage on a property for investment purposes.

**Current Direction of Home Prices [00:12:09]**

Analysis of the current direction of home prices in the resale market, including a survey of resale agents and national existing home prices.

**Regional Real Estate Market Performance [00:18:00]**

Discussion of the stability of regional real estate markets, with a focus on the southeast and midwest, and the importance of stable prices, high rent ratios, and strong landlord tenant laws.

**WFH Trends and Regional Real Estate Markets [00:20:24]**

Analysis of the potential impact of work from home trends on regional real estate markets, including an increase in flexible job postings in major cities.

**Virtual Real Estate Investing [00:25:02]**

Discussion of the recent failures of metaverse projects and the risks of virtual real estate investing.

**Factors Affecting National Home Prices [00:26:15]**

Explanation of the headwinds and tailwinds affecting national home prices in 2021, including bank failures, job loss recession, labor and supply inflation, spring home buyer demand, and the supply crash.

**Mortgage Rates [00:30:20]**

Explanation of the difficulty in predicting mortgage rates and the lack of forecast for their direction.

**Various Asset Classes Performance [00:32:17]**

Discussion of the performance of different asset classes in Q1 of the year, including precious metals, savings accounts, and real estate.

**Benefits of Investing in Real Estate [00:35:14]**

Real estate investing as a way to beat inflation and transfer prosperity from dollars to property, with the added benefit of control and potential for five ways of profit.

**Reasons to Invest in Residential Real Estate [00:36:27]**

Advantages of investing in new or renovated residential real estate, including low maintenance expenses and potential for no capex expenses during ownership.

**Expectations for Real Estate Market [00:37:33]**

Expectations for the real estate market in the next five years, with a caution that the historically high price run-up may not be repeated.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

National existing median home price:

National median home price (existing & new):

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Memphis & Little Rock property that 

cash flows from Day One:

Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at:

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

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Welcome to GRE! I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. 


Would you rather be age 18 and poor or 80 and wealthy?


Learn about how a second mortgage could benefit you.


Historically, what REGIONS of the nation have the most stable and volatile real estate prices? 


Then, there are two ominous threats to FUTURE property prices. All that and more, today, on Episode 444 of Get Rich Education.


Welcome to GRE! From Orange County, Florida to Orange County, CA and across 188 nations worldwide, I’m Keith Weinhold, this is Get Rich Education.


Last week marked 50 years since the first-ever cellphone call was placed. The call from the 2.5-pound brick-sized cellphone was placed in NYC - Manhattan. 


That phone could NOT fit inside a standard pocket. 


Sheesh! Look, I won’t even use a case on my iPhone today because I’m concerned about the weight and friction and it would add!


I want it light and I want to be able to quickly slide it in & out of my pocket. Ha!


Well, I’ve got a more significant trade-off for you to consider. 


Would you rather be age 18 and poor or age 80 and wealthy? 


I think you and most everyone would rather be 18 years old and poor rather than 80 years old and wealthy.


I am pretty confident that you & I agree on that.


Well, if you’d rather be 18 and poor, then why would you go to a job to trade your time for dollars?


Because that’s exactly how you move away from 18 and poor straight toward 80 & wealthier but probably 80 & still less than wealthy.


Why would you make that trade?


Even if you love your job - if it’s not the activity you’d MOST want to be doing out of anything else in the wide spectrum of life, move away from 18 & poor?


Well, time is going to pass one way or the other, but you can win back your time & end up wealthy rather than “somewhat less than wealthy”...


…when you provide value for society by giving them housing, getting paid 5 ways at the same time, one of which includes a MOSTLY passive income stream, trading relatively little of your life time all the while. That’s why we do here.


That way, you’re not quite going to be 18 & wealthy, but wealthy when you’re young enough to enjoy it.


Over the last three years, property prices are up 30 to 40% in a lot of markets.


We’re going to look at the current & future direction of real estate prices in a moment. 


But let’s talk about what you can do with this… what you can do with that dead equity in your properties.


America has near record-high equity levels right now so this is really timely here.


But there’s a bit of a problem with tapping your equity today. Before I get into that, just a recap minute here…


Of course, as any longtime listener knows, since the rate of return from home equity is always zero, you have a chance to harvest your equity.


Having, even an extra $1,000 of equity in any property, including your own home, is like making an extra principal payment of $1,000.


Doing that is like you saying, “Hey, Mr. Banker. Here’s an extra $1,000 principal payment. Don’t pay me any interest on it. If I need it back, I’ll pay you fees, and I’ll try to prove to you that I qualify again.”


That’s the short story on why home equity is unsafe, Illiquid, and its ROI is Zero.


OK, but if you have a mortgage loan that’s set at just 3 or 4% interest, are you really going to refinance that whole loan just to pull some money out - just to convert some equity to cash?


Because if you did, your mortgage rate could go up to 6 or 7%. So accessing equity isn’t as great as it used to be.


Ah, but there’s a way around this.


One your, say, property at, say, Huckleberry Lane, you could keep your existing mortgage in-place at that low 3% or 4% rate, and potentially add a second mortgage onto Huckleberry Lane - and only that second mortgage is at the higher rate.

The first loan stays in place and so does its amortization schedule.


Now, if your Huckleberry Lane property is worth $500K, you can often have 80% of that, or $400K borrowed, that’s that 80% combined-loan-to-value ratio.


That means that the amount of cash that you can get your hands on is $400K minus your mortgage balance. 


That’s why a lot of property owners are able to access, often, $100K or more cash, without touching their low first mortgage at all.


Get $100K cash out - or whatever you have access to - it’s not providing you with any rate of return anyway.


Though you can often borrow out up to 80% of your primary residence’s property value, the deal isn’t as good as far as getting second mortgages on your rental property.


Second mortgages on a rental are, sometimes available, sometimes not. When they are, it’s recently been just up to 70% that you can borrow out.


Now, as good as this might sound, it doesn’t mean that you SHOULD do it. What are the risks with taking a second mortgage on your home or rental properties?


Well, some second mortgages take the form of a Home Equity Line of Credit - or HELOC. 


The interest rate on your HELOC can fluctuate, so there’s interest rate risk. Most HELOCs have a fixed rate period for the first 5 or more years though.


Before I talk more about the risk of a second mortgage, it’s just amazing - the number of people that I run into out there - most of them aren’t REIs - but homeowners that are elated that they got a low mortgage rate 2, 3 years ago (and they should be - congratulations)... but they want to tap their bloated home equity and don’t know about adding a second mortgage.


Now, a risk with a second mortgage is the potential pitfall of borrowing short to go long, meaning your HELOC rate resets in a little as five years - it could go down when it resets and it goes up, and at that time, you’re not liquid enough to deal with the second mortgages higher payments.

Now, I know, it’s exciting about getting into more income property, using dead equity from your own home or your own rentals - because it’s “Real Estate Pays 5 Ways” stuff.


You might tell yourself, that when you add up a 5 rates of return from investment property - appreciation, cash flow, amortization, tax benefits and inflation-profiting, that you can surely see a total rate of return on your new rentals of 20% or 30% or more. 


So if your second mortgage has an interest rate of 7 or 8%, you’d do that deal and pocket the spread.


Yes, it sure might work out that way, in fact, there’s even a probability that it could work out that way.


But the risk is that you’ve got to stay liquid enough to service the debt if your second mortgage rate rises or any other reason.


And you might be just fine. You might have enough cash flow or cash stored that you’re padded, you’re fine… and your underwriter might help you look at that during your second mortgage qualification.


You might ask Ridge Lending Group or your favorite lender about second mortgage options.


So, now you know. A second mortgage can keep up your velocity of money. There are benefits and there are risks.


Utilizing it successfully looks something like this.


You start off with 50% equity in one property, which is 2:1 leverage, you move some of that into a second property. 


Now you’ve got 25% equity in both.


You’ve done MORE than double your wealth-amplifying ability here. You’ve virtually 4Xed.


Because rather than having 2:1 leverage in one property, you’ve got 4:1 leverage in two properties.


That’s how wealth is BUILT.


Let’s talk about those ERSTWHILE home prices.


There are at least two ominous threats to future home prices. And now that it’s Spring and market activity picks up, what's the CURRENT direction of home prices? 


Real estate can move slower than glaciers, so March numbers are still scarce.


Home prices in the resale market - alright, that means existing homes, not new-build - those resale prices have stayed remarkably resilient, even when mortgage rates jumped up back in February.


John Burns REC compiles a chart for the latest survey of resale agents. The question that was asked is: “What direction have resale home prices moved in the last month?” 


The national survey respondents can pick that prices are either MOST INCREASING, MOSTLY DECREASING, or MOSTLY FLAT.


This February, for the first time since May of 2022, more said that home prices are "mostly increasing" rather than "mostly decreasing":


Note though, that most of the agents in the latest survey show that prices are merely steady at 51%. 26% said “increasing” and 23% decreasing.


Credit to JBREC. This is a national survey of ~2,600 resale agents. 


Now just from this chart and THESE stats, note something interesting. October 2022—appears to be housing’s low point. That was then, six months ago—marking housing's recent low point.


So, that’s a different angle on looking at home prices than usual - asking agents what they’re seeing.


National existing home prices, per the FRED stats, month-over-month are up just a little, from about $361K to $363K. Again, that’s through February.


Seasonally, that could go up more. That typically happens each year when spring transitions to summer.


There’s a good chance that national homes prices will be rising these next few months.


If you think that those prices sound a little low, be mindful, this entire discussion, so far, is about EXISTING homes aka resale homes, which tend to be priced lower than new construction homes. 


If you combine both existing & new, same source, $468,000 is the national median home price. That was the same quarter-over-quarter. Same source too.


It’s always important to cite the source when it comes to statistics.


You know, some say the 1990s are when America moved into the Information Age. But, at some point, in the 2010s, did we move into the DisInformation Age?


I don’t know. There’s a lot of both out there - a plethora, a profusion of both information and disinformation.


Some of these niche finance social media pages don’t cite their sources, and more often than not, I don’t follow them or I unfollow them if I find that they regularly don’t cite source.


The other type of story that I unfollow or just stay away from, are article headlines or images with the word “Rumor” in it.


I don’t want to follow Rumors. Now, I guess, in the best case, a rumor could turn out to be true and maybe could give you a heads up on something that actually turns out to come true later.


But, the world is full of real information. I don’t want to spend this one finite life I have on earth catching up on rumors. It’s more sports sites that use that word rather than finance sites.


Rumor is just an annoying word, I guess. It’s a synonym for “gossip”.


Hey, the real estate investing and personal finance world has its own quirks and odd spins on words.


One thing I haven’t been able to figure out is how a guru is bad and an obsession is good.


Some people disparage thought leaders and influencers as gurus.


Guru means an influential teacher or an expert. That sounds like someone worth listening to to me.


How are obsessions good. Some say, to succeed, you’ve go to be obsessed.


No, you don’t. That sounds unhealthy.


The definition of obsess is to preoccupy or fill the mind of someone continually, intrusively, and to a troubling extent.


Don’t fall into the trap of an obsession.


Well, to recap what you’ve learned today on Get Rich Education Episode 444 (ha!) rumors and obsessions are bad, and gurus are good.


Enough digression. Getting back to real estate investing.


Like I said at the beginning of the year, I don’t expect much national HPA or price declines this year.


But regionally, the markets that we focus on here - the ones in the Southeast and Midwest and a little in the Northeast, have all performed well.


Many - even most - in our target markets appreciated in 2018 & 2019 & 2020 & 2021 & 2022 & they’re continuing to do so now.


Many Florida markets are still seeing 10%+ appreciation. We’re talking about those stable markets, avoiding the volatile, largely coastal markets where prices are sinking, especially on the West Coast.


As I've long discussed, one reason that we invest where we do are for their stable prices, even during downturns.


Backed by historical data, American housing's long-term regional price volatility is broken down like this:

The most stable markets are in the Midwest and the Inland Northeast.

The medium volatility markets are in South

And the highly volatile markets, which we avoid  are in the West, and the Coastal Northeast - like NYC and Boston.

I’m going to guess that you’ve never heard regional home price VOLATILITY described before. 

Now, you might wonder, if the Inland Northeast tends to have more stable, long-term pricing than the South, why don’t we favor it more than the South.

Well, stable prices are important. But having high rent ratios and having strong LL-tenant laws and high in-migration make the Southeast a strong investment area.

Of course, when I describe regions this broad there tend to be some outliers and exceptions.

Now, it’s going to be interesting to see how America’s regional pricing level AND its level of stability changes over time.

That is set up to change at a faster pace, and you might know why that is - why these geographic regions could see, really more of an amalgamation of characteristics and that is due to… you MIGHT know what I’m going to say. WFH.

That actually is not an initialism or acronym for some kind of thinly veiled profanity. It is work-from-home. 

The rise in Work From Home Trends could really start to blur these lines over time. Now, it would be a trend that moves slowly. 

But consider, that, in January of 2023 six times more work was happening remotely than it was in January of 2019, that’s according to a company called WFH Research.

In fact, in major cities like New York and Chicago there are now more job postings for flexible arrangements than at any point during the last three years, according to the NBER & Bloomberg.

Now, that’s of less concern to you, the residential property investor. It might just be an interesting trend and create more demand for your product - HOMES!

But it could very well put downward pressure price pressure on higher-priced areas like Manhattan, Brooklyn, and San Jose… and more upward price pressure on those lower cost areas where you & I tend to buy property.

But with more Americans working from their homes, it is bad, bad, bad for downtown commercial landlords and some central business district companies who survived the 2020 lockdowns… but STILL haven’t fully bounced back three years later. Gosh! is where you can learn more about how to invest in real estate the right way, the profitable way - with articles that I write myself, and our videos and more. It is all free.

If you would like to contact us, with a question about the show, you can do so at

More straight head, including two ominous signs for the future of the housing market. I’m Keith Weinhold. You’re listening to Episode 444 of Get Rich Education.


Welcome back to Get Rich Education. I’m your host, Keith Weinhold.


We are keepin' it real here at GRE. Building real wealth in the real world with real estate.


See the, uh, emphasis on the world “real”. Back in December, on Episode 427, you’ll remember that we did a show devoted to Metaverse Real Estate Investing… and the consensus of the guest & I were that it is risky and in most cases, ill-advised to get involved.


Well, it was recently announced that both Disney and Microsoft have shuttered their metaverse projects. 


Popular virtual worlds have seen steep drops in interest, with the median sale price of real estate in Decentraland plummeting 90% YoY.

You know, with the real thing, even if your real estate lost value, which isn’t common, it can’t go down too far. You’ve still got the value of the land underneath it and the value of all the materials that your property is built with.

What about national home prices for the rest of this year? Of course, it’s always a little odd to discuss national home prices with the tens of thousands of US markets. 


It’s kind of like coming up with a national weather average.


Here are the MAIN factors governing national home price direction this year.


The headwinds to price growth - the threats are #1:

1 - We had banks fail early this spring. More regional bank fallout could contribute to tightening lending standards. Tightening lending standards would mean that fewer borrowers could qualify, and that could reduce demand. Reduced home demand is NOT good for prices. So that’s ominous housing threat number #1.

But even if that happens, regional banks are often making COMMERCIAL real loans.

The government-backed loans you’re getting for residential are more desirable - we’re talking VA, FHA, rural housing mortgage, and conforming loans that are sold to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - which are often those types that you’re getting for 1-4 unit income properties at GRE Marketplace.

All government-guaranteed stuff.

The second substantial threat to some good home price appreciation this year is that there is a small chance of a big "job loss" recession.

With it being over a year since the Fed started raising rates, there is a lag effect and we should some at least a few more job losses as we head toward a likely recession.

They are the two ominous threats.

The tailwinds to price growth - these are the strengths for rising home prices, there are 3.

The first one is that labor & supply inflation remains elevated, and well, that obviously keeps upward pressure on home prices.

The second positive, or strength for home prices is - like I touched on earlier - increasing spring homebuyer demand hasn’t been factored into the numbers yet - and that always boosts prices.

And then the third strength and underlying factor to boost home prices this year is really, what I’ve called “the crash” which has caught some people off guard.

Yes, this generation’s housing crash ALREADY happened. It is that SUPPLY CRASH of about 60% in available American homes to buy.

We have such a low housing supply, like we’ve discussed in-depth elsewhere on the show so I won’t elaborate on that, but that changes nearly everything and it is one reason that home prices are still so resilient today. Still more demand than supply.

National home prices have begun heading up a little, and there are a few more opportunities than there are threats that prices should keep rising, but I don’t expect any huge gain, like no 10% gain nationally this year. I don’t see how that can happen at all.

Now, you’ll notice that, mortgage rates, - I didn’t put them into either category - either the upcoming housing threats or strength and that’s simply because we don’t know where mortgage rates are headed.

They’re so hard to predict so that’s why I’m not forecasting where I think that mortgage rates will go.

You know how when you’re under contract to buy a property and you & your mortgage loan officer are having that strategy session on WHEN you want to lock in your rate.

At least one time in your life - and I sure have in mine - you’re tempted to ask your MLO where they think rates are going… well, like I said, they’re just really difficult to forecast. 

Your MLO often doesn’t know where they’re going to go.

Do you remember, last year, or I sure do because I follow this stuff closely, the number of people and professionals that said mortgage rates would be 8 to 10% by Spring of 2023?

Yeah, quite a few people said that emphatically. They’re about 6.3% today.

Before I get back to real estate, the quarter recently ended so let’s whip around the asset classes like we do sometimes at quarter-end.

Tech stocks got a boost in the first quarter, that helped the S&P be up 7%.


Stocks of the tech giants that are leading the charge in          AI-powered search, Microsoft and Alphabet, outpaced that.


Meanwhile, the second- and third-largest bank collapses in US history happening within 48 hours hurt bank stocks.


Bitcoin was up 72% in Q1. Do we say that crypto winter is over when bitcoin hits $30K?


Oil prices were flat, beginning & ending the quarter at around $80.


Gold was up 7%, partly due to the bank failures.


Silver rose 4% for the quarter.


You know what’s been a really bad investment for the last decade, despite all the good things that you hear about its promise - investing in physical silver.

You read that there’s now more silver above ground than below ground.


10 years ago, silver was worth $25 dollars an ounce and it’s still worth… $25 an ounce.


That’s even worse than it sounds to laypeople. If you’ve held any investment for 10 years like that and it’s worth merely the same amount of dollars, inflation just chomped about half of it away.


We might have had 40 or 50% or more real inflation in the last decade… and silver bars didn’t pay you an income stream during that time either. What a poor performer!


Though I think that SOME precious metals can still be a good STORE of value.


That was whipping around the other asset classes in Q1 of this year.


One place to park your money that is NOT a good store of value is… savings accounts and CDs and MMFs.


Their interest rate, though it might feel good getting paid up to 4% or 5% on those, it ensures that you’re losing prosperity every day… because CPI inflation is higher than that, and then the real rate of inflation is higher than that yet. True inflation might be double your savings account rate.


Instead, the smart money BEATS inflation and all the time, a little more of the smart money is GETTING OUT OF DOLLARS too with these rising concerns about foreign nations doing more of their business in yuan or another currency outside of the petro dollar.


The dollar is currently under a lot of stress, besides just the inflation. Dollars in savings accounts & the like… don’t just lose to inflation… they’re actually keeping your prosperity denominated in dollars, which a growing chorus feels precarious about right now.


Is the dollar about to lose its world reserve currency status? I don’t know. I think people having been calling for that since shortly after Richard Nixon took us off the gold standard in 1971. 


Instead, what about a fully renovated or brand new investment property, with a rent-paying tenant placed and its all under professional management for you.


That way it’s low hassle for you, yet because you own the asset directly, you have the CONTROL without the hassle, and you’re often paid those five ways.


This way, not only are you getting out of dollars with your down payment - another way to say it is that you’re converting your dollars into real estate…


Then on top of that, when you borrow the dollars for 75 or 80% of the purchase price… you’re getting out of dollars so much that you’ve essentially fund a way to go negative with your dollar position on that property.


When you buy through our network, since the property is new or renovated, you should often expect little or no ongoing repair or maintenance expense in the early years.


And here’s the thing that some investors overlook. You may not have an CapEx expense at all. Those big capital expenditures like a new roof or windows or a furnace.


That’s because when you buy new or rehabbed and you consider that your hold time often isn’t more than 7-10 years due to equity accumulation and leverage ratios, as you lever up into another property, you can leave the Capital Expenditures to the next buyer when you sell.


So, these are some reasons why buying residential real estate makes a ton of sense in this environment. 


Will these next five years be as lucrative as the last five years? No, I really wouldn’t expect that - that’s because of the historically high price runup these past few years.


But I still cannot think of a better place to be than that strategically-chosen real estate.


You can go ahead and get started looking at some properties in markets and connect with our free investment coaching there if you so choose. 


That’s all at


Hey, I really had a great time chatting real estate and everything else with you today.


Until next week, I’m your host, KW. DQYD!


Direct download: GREepisoded444_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

HGTV Star, Tarek El Moussa joins me today. Incredibly, he got into TV with no experience and no contacts. What a story!

Apartment and multifamily construction is staying heightened. Conversely, few new single-family homes are being built.

We’re now hiring at GRE.

Tarek hustles. His life took a turn when he attended a motivational Tom Ferry real estate seminar.

To flip a property, he began to identify distressed properties with expired listings. Today, he tells us why he actually targets pending listings for acquisitions.

When he got a show with HGTV, Tarek was only doing his first-ever flip. He also didn’t have the money to acquire distressed property for flips.

Tarek didn’t even know how to flip! But HGTV immediately wanted him to flip 13 houses in 10 months.

Tarek is best at finding and negotiating deals. He outsources other tasks.

He chose contractors that specialize in fix & flip renovations. 

Tarek discovers them by looking at rehabbed property listings, calling the sales agent, and asking for the contractor’s name.

Long-term, we discuss being an active flipper vs. passive real estate investor.

Today, Tarek and his wife star in HGTV’s “The Flipping El Moussas”. 

He also has a: real estate syndication, solar company, flipping summit, flipping course, and more. 

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

HGTV’s “The Flipping El Moussas”:

Homeschooled by Tarek:

TEM Capital:

The Flipping Summit:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Memphis & Little Rock property that 

cash flows from Day One:

Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at:

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

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Direct download: GREepisode443_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EDT

Get started with new-build Florida duplexes, triplexes, and quads right here

Conventional personal finance says that you should be able to put in your time, effort, and energy when you're young.

When you're older, you can live a great life knocking back drinks served in coconuts.

That's being severely threatened.

Throughout history, some humans have perpetrated malicious time theft on other humans. Murder and slavery are extreme versions.

You're likely the victim of more subtle versions.

If you're working at a job, then you're selling your time, effort, and energy into the marketplace.

The proxy (currency) that you're receiving in