Get Rich Education (general)

Owning raw land, timberland, and farmland is often the domain of the wealthy. This is partly because it is difficult to obtain loans for this property.

Today, we discuss an income-producing timberland that also tends to increase in value.

For under $7,000 you can own quarter-acre parcels of producing teak trees in Panama and Nicaragua.

You can invest yourself. All at once, this provides diversification with a hard asset in a foreign nation and a different product type.

Over a twenty-five year period, each $7K quarter-acre teak parcel is projected to return $94K. You get title to the property.

Learn more at:

With ownership of two quarter-acre parcels, you can qualify for a second residency in Panama for under $22K with legal fees, etc.

A SFR does not grow into a duplex. But teak trees grow in volume while its unit price typically appreciates. Teak price growth is historically 5.5% annually.

I’ve met the company CEO and Chairman in-person. This provider has offered this opportunity for 24+ years.

They’ve recently added a sawmill, increasing profits.

What are the risks of teak tree investing? Disease, pests, fire, geopolitics and more. They are proven mitigation plans.

In-person teak tours for prospective investors are offered.

Trees grow through recessions, COVID, market cycles, and Fed rate decisions.

Learn more about teak tree investing at:


Welcome to Get Rich Education (00:00:01)

Keith Weinhold introduces the podcast and emphasizes the importance of real estate and financial information.

The US economy and land ownership (00:01:44)

Keith discusses the strength of the US economy and the importance of diverse and resilient real estate portfolios.

America's top 100 landowners (00:02:29)

Keith talks about the largest landowners in America and the reasons why land ownership is often associated with the wealthy.

Investing like a billionaire (00:05:32)

Keith introduces the topic of investing in producing land and the benefits of owning producing land.

Introduction to ECI Development (00:06:21)

Keith introduces Michael Cobb and discusses the company's projects in Latin America.

Marriott resort project in Belize (00:07:08)

Mike talks about the construction of a Marriott resort in Ambergris Key, Belize, and the challenges of financing such projects.

Development and tourism in Belize (00:08:37)

Michael Cobb discusses the development and popularity of Ambergris Key, Belize, and the involvement of major hotel brands.

Teak tree parcels investment (00:11:30)

Michael Cobb explains the investment opportunity in quarter-acre teak tree parcels and the generational wealth stewardship associated with it.

Reasons for teak investing (00:14:05)

Michael Cobb discusses the reasons why people are interested in teak investing, including hard asset diversification and international residency opportunities.

Cash flow cycles and teak investment (00:16:42)

Michael Cobb explains the 25-year cash flow cycle associated with teak investments and the generational income potential.

Optimal growing conditions for teak (00:19:26)

Michael Cobb discusses the optimal growing conditions for teak and the physical growth of the trees.

[End of segment]

Teak Plantation Locations and Growth (00:19:42)

Discussion on the optimal locations for teak growth and the historical track record of teak price growth.

Teak Price Growth and Business Plan (00:20:44)

The historical 55% annual increase in the value of teak and the business plan's conservative approach to teak price growth.

Physical Properties and Residency Opportunities (00:21:33)

The value of teak and the opportunities for achieving residency in Panama by owning teak.

Residency and Citizenship (00:24:33)

Differentiating between residency and citizenship in Panama and the process and benefits of obtaining permanent residency.

Sawmill and Value-Added Component (00:27:56)

The integration of a sawmill into the investment proposition and the value-added potential of processing teak into lumber.

Sawmill Investment Opportunity (00:30:07)

Details of the investment opportunity in the sawmill, including the expected return and investment structure.

Risks and Mitigation (00:32:41)

Discussion on the risks associated with teak plantation investment abroad and the mitigation strategies in place.

Property Management and Tours (00:35:25)

Outsourcing property management and the availability of tours to visit the teak plantations in Panama.

Long-Term Investment Perspective (00:37:43)

The long-term growth potential of teak investments and the comparison to the investment strategies of wealthy families and institutions.

Earth's Highest Real Estate (00:38:11)

Discussion about Earth's highest point, the equatorial bulge, and the location of teak plantations in Panama and Nicaragua.

Investing in Teak Parcels (00:38:11)

Information about purchasing teak parcels, the absence of loans, and the potential for building wealth through teak investments.

Consultation Disclaimer (00:39:34)

Disclaimer about seeking professional advice and the potential for profit or loss in investment strategies.

Resources mentioned:

Show Page:

Learn more about teak investing:

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Complete episode transcript:


Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to gray. I'm your host, Keith Reinhold. An affordable way to simultaneously invest like a billionaire. Get diversified in multiple ways with real estate. Help the earth. And if you prefer, even achieve residency in a second nation today and get rich education. When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls. And you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies. Disclaimers are. At no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life? See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text gray to 66866. And when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course completely free. It's called the Don't Quit Your Daydream letter and it wires your mind for wealth.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:16) - Make sure you read it. Text gray to 66866. Text gray 266866.


Corey Coates (00:01:28) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:44) - What category? From Sorrento, Italy to Sacramento, California, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Reinhold, and you're listening to get Rich education the Voice of Real Estate since 2014. As we're two months into the year now and the US economy has continued to stay strong. Let me ask, how's your portfolio doing and how resilient is your real estate? How diverse is it? How would you grade yourself on those criteria?


Donald Trump (00:02:17) - I would give myself, I would look, I hate to do it, but I will do it. I would give myself an A-plus. Is that enough? Can I go higher than that?


Keith Weinhold (00:02:29) - Well, well, whether your, I guess, straight A's or not. Consider this land They recently published a report about America's top 100 Las donors. Now, Lynn could be vacant and nonresidential, yet have active ranching or agriculture or forestry taking place.


Keith Weinhold (00:02:52) - That way the land produces something while it might increase in value at the same time. But the reason that often land is the domain of the wealthy is that it's harder to get loans for land, and therefore one must often pay all cash. Well, by the time they were done. Today, you'll learn about producing land that's actually available at such a low price point that alone typically is not required for you to buy it. In 2024, America's largest land owner is Red Emerson, and that's what the report found. Read and his family owned 2.4 million acres in California, Oregon and Washington through their Timber products company and the number since they became America's largest landowners in 2021, when they acquired 175,000 acres in Oregon from another timber company. Well, with that acquisition, the Emerson surpassed Liberty Media chairman John Malone's 2.2 million acres. And then in third place is CNN founder Ted Turner. Yeah, he's America's third largest landowner, with 2 million acres in the southeast on the Great Plains and across the West. And it was a few years ago now.


Keith Weinhold (00:04:05) - It was 2020 when news broke that Microsoft co-founder Bill gates was America's largest farm land owner, with more than 260,000 acres. So the wealthy are attracted to real assets that can produce yield in something like land, which they aren't making more of. That's the backdrop for today. Surely we'll talk about income producing land, although most years it won't pay out and it's available to any investor, big or small. But before we do, let me share that. About ten days ago, I climbed up the highest point on Earth here while we're talking about non-residential real estate. Well, where was it? Where was I? Yes, I was on Earth's highest piece of real estate. Kind of a trivia question here, and I used to think that that must mean Mount Everest, but it's not. So there's a clue for you there. Where is Earth's highest point is you ponder that. I'll give you the answer later. Let's talk about investing like a billionaire with the opportunity to own producing land did it to you? We've discussed this topic before, but it's been quite some time and there have been some important updates, including a sawmill for the production timber.


Keith Weinhold (00:05:32) - After success in the computer industry, today's guest formed ECI development in 1996. I suppose going on nearly 30 years now. He served on advisory boards for the Na as a resort community developer. They have projects in Belize, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Honduras and Panama, and neighborhoods include homes, condominiums, golf courses and over five miles of beachfront. So they got some really beautiful properties. He and I first met in person in 2016. He and his family lived in Central America from 2002 to 2016. It's always fantastic to have back on grea, and I guess I must button up here because it is the chairman and CEO, Michael Cobb. It's good to be with you. Thanks for having me.


Michael Cobb (00:06:21) - Back on the show. It's fun to have these conversations. I didn't realize we met in 2016. That's a little while ago.


Keith Weinhold (00:06:27) - Yeah, it has been eight years. Yes, we met in the region then down there and Mike's about the most relatable and down to earth guy that you can find and literally down to earth is.


Keith Weinhold (00:06:41) - Besides the resort development, you've made it easy and inexpensive for investors worldwide to buy producing teak tree parcels. But before we discuss that, you've got a project that's drawn a lot of interest on Ambergris Key, Belize, which many of our listeners already know, that's Belize's largest island and its top tourist destination. I have visited and owned property there, and it's coming online next year. It's pretty exciting. Tell us about it.


Michael Cobb (00:07:08) - It is exciting. It's been in the works for goodness, eight years. I think we signed our contract with Marriott maybe 7 or 8 years ago. We started construction just about a year ago last January. So almost exactly a year. Yeah, it's a marriott resort, 202 room oceanfront resort. It's fantastic. It will be done in August of 2025. Soft opening heart opening October 25th. So yeah, about 1618 months from now have this project finally finished. You know, the big challenging thing in this part of the world is financing. But it's really hard to get financing or affordable financing.


Michael Cobb (00:07:42) - Let me say it that way. Yeah. And so we took our time and we would not start a project until it was fully funded. I think a lot of challenges are people start these projects are kind of betting on the. Com. Right. Oh well we'll figure it out later. And we don't operate that way. We've been around for yeah 28 years. And so we're very very conservative. And until we had all the money to build the hotel, the resort, we did not start. And so we kicked it off last January. It was just down there last week. Steel is arriving. The superstructure is already going up. Yeah, man. It's just so nice to see it really coming to fruition. But you know, it's prudence and patience to take our time, make sure we have all the funding and then launch so that what we start finishes. And that's really been our mantra for almost three decades now.


Keith Weinhold (00:08:27) - Make it up, make it real, make it happen. In the largest town there on Ambergris Key, Belize, just a few decades ago, it was still this sleepy fishing village.


Keith Weinhold (00:08:37) - And with the setting that that island has and all the great snorkeling and everything else, it's really become popular and is boutique hotels grew into larger hotels. Yeah, it was probably, what, ten years ago perhaps, that you saw some of these big brands start to take more of an interest, like Hilton and Marriott, in branding the buildings what is.


Michael Cobb (00:09:00) - And, you know, I give a presentation called Why Belize, Why Right Now? And you nailed it there when you talked about the timelines. Right. And how a country or a region, it's not even a country in this case. Ambergris key. It's very specific. Right. How ambergris Key Belize has moved through this timeline, this path of progress. And at some point it goes from being a niche market or a no name market to a niche market, to a boutique market. And then all of a sudden, you're right, at some point the brand start to pay attention and then you move into popular acceptance and really mainstream tourism. And so, right.


Michael Cobb (00:09:31) - The cruise ships started going to Belize about 15 years ago, which put Belize as a country into the mind of a more mainstream traveler. And then you're right, about eight, ten years ago, the brand started to pay attention. And we do. We have a Hilton, we have a curio by Hilton, we have an autograph by Marriott, our company, ECI. We picked up the best Western franchise, and so we operate a Best Western on the island for that middle class market. And then Marriott, obviously, for the very high end traveler who wants an oceanfront 4 or 5 star kind of property. So yeah, but the brands are paying attention. And by the way, we're just seeing the beginning of that happening. This popularity curve Belize has entered what I would call the fast growth period. And over the next five, maybe eight years, we're going to see incredible growth in the tourism industry. Airlift is up. JetBlue just started flying down. So we're starting to WestJet. So we've got Canadian Air.


Michael Cobb (00:10:22) - We've got a discount carrier southwest. So when those things start to happen what you see is a market dynamism that's you know really it's exciting and it's going to change. Very, very rapidly. The pace of change is going to grow rapidly as well. So great time to look at Belize. If folks are interested in sort of that positioning in the path of progress in the marketplace.


Keith Weinhold (00:10:43) - Each time I visit Ambergris Key, Belize, the level of development increase is palpable. And, you know, this is an opportunity for a US or Canadian buyer or a buyer from outside that nation to come in. And it's just a very easy step with the English language and the common law in Belize, where you can invest yourself in this Marriott project that Mike discussed. Now, Mike, a while ago, to change topics, you recognize that the world has been really deforested and losing its valuable teak hardwood forests so continuously since 1999, you've offered a program so that individual investors at a really affordable price. We'll get to that price later.


Keith Weinhold (00:11:30) - They can own quarter acre parcels with the property deeded in their name, and reap the benefits and returns from the growth of the teakwood on top of the land. And now this is pretty novel, because for hundreds of years, only the hedge funds and super wealthy had access to an investment like this. So get us up to date with what you're doing on the teak hardwoods, because I know that so many of our listeners and viewers have already gotten involved.


Michael Cobb (00:11:56) - They haven't really. Thank you for being one of the people who put the word out there. Right? Because most people don't even know you can own teak or let's just back it up and you say, own timber, right? You start there. You're right. Only the super rich land barons, hedge funds. Those are the people that have always owned timber for centuries. Right. And so I think in most people's minds it's like, oh, I can't even get there. How would I even do that? Right. Well, then you take it overseas and you take it into something very, very specific, like teak timber.


Michael Cobb (00:12:25) - That's just not on anyone's radar. So. So you have done a great job. Thank you for getting the word out to just let folks know that this is something that they can do. So quarter acre teak parcels. We are now on our third plantation in Panama. We have one in Nicaragua as well. And so we're in our third plantation in Panama. Just because of the incredible number of folks, well over a thousand folks now who have decided they want to invest in own teak. You said something really interesting, Keith. You said you get to own the land, you get title to land and you get the harvest of the trees. That's absolutely correct. But it gets better because when the trees are harvested, they get replanted. And then the next generation of people your children, your grandchildren, whoever that might be, get the next harvest. But because you still own the land and the trees are replanted, a third harvest, you know, and a fourth harvest. So what you've really created with teak ownership is generational wealth stewardship.


Michael Cobb (00:13:24) - And that is something that's just so far beyond the comprehension of so many people that it can be so easy and so affordable to do.


Keith Weinhold (00:13:32) - I'm an investor myself in producing land like this in Latin America, so I know what some of my reasons are for being interested in this. And yes, it's more than the fact that I'm just a geography guy. It's the fact that I know I'm diversifying in multiple ways at the same time, a different product type in residential real estate. And I'm getting international diversification in a different nation, for starters. So are those some of the reasons that you see for why so many people are interested in teak investing like this? What are their reasons?


Michael Cobb (00:14:05) - Yeah, I think you've nailed a big part of it, which is the hard asset. A lot of folks, your listeners, readers in the news that are right, I mean, hard assets are important. I hope more people recognize that. Right. And more and more people are, thank goodness. So hard. Asset real estate being this particular hard asset.


Michael Cobb (00:14:22) - Right. And then the international diversification, one of the challenges we have is us, especially in Canadians to some degree, is that we kind of locked into the US system like we can own, say, Toyota stock, right? Japanese company, we can own Nestlé, a Swiss company, but generally we're doing it on the New York Stock Exchange. And so even if we own an international stock, it's still the US basket are still the Canadian basket that we hold it in. Right. And so when you physically own a titled property outside your home country, you have now truly diversified internationally. And there's a lot of prudence in that. And even just tiny little percentages of your portfolio, 5% of your portfolio, 10% of your portfolio outside your home country and hard assets is prudent because you want some other baskets for those nest eggs. Antiqued because it's such a low price point of entry with a huge yield, by the way, that it has become very, very popular for folks who want that international diversification in a hard asset.


Michael Cobb (00:15:23) - But to have the true international diversification because it's a physical asset outside your home country. And then I. Just say this and we can pick up on the theme or not. The other reason that people are looking at teak in Panama and Nicaragua, by the way, both countries, is because of the availability or the qualification for a visa for a second residency. And a lot of times people look at that as a plan B, if we kind of think maybe the US is going off the rails or Canada or wherever your home country is at, or it could go off the rails. Doesn't have to be now. It could be going off the rails in the future. You sort of that Boy Scout mentality of, you know what, I want a plan B, and if we have a second residency outside our home country, we now have an option. If we don't like the way things are going or where they get to, we can actually pick up and we can move and we have the right legal right, because we have a residency to live in another country.


Michael Cobb (00:16:17) - That's another reason that a lot of people have picked up the teak because it qualifies you for that residency. But I think the bigger reason is the international hard asset diversification. I think that's the leading reason people do it.


Keith Weinhold (00:16:31) - I want to ask you more about the residency shortly, but tell us more about the investment. We're thinking about maybe capital growth as the trees grow. And then what about the income?


Michael Cobb (00:16:42) - Sure. And so I think let me back it up. A lot of people think in cash flow cycles, right? If we have a job, we get paid every two weeks. You know, you have a lot of folks that have invested in properties. We get a monthly rent check, right? Or if we have stocks, maybe we get a quarterly or annual dividend. Right. So those are the what I would call the common time frames that we think about in cash flow. But what the Uber wealthy, what the hedge funds, what the family offices, what the endowment for places like Harvard, Yale, these big institution or big institutional thinkers have known for centuries is that there are actually other cash flow cycles that are largely ignored by the what I would say, the average investor.


Michael Cobb (00:17:21) - And those cash flow cycles are much longer. Teak, for example, is a 25 year cash flow cycle, right? You plant the trees and in 25 years you harvest them. You plant them again, not them. You plant new ones, right? In 25 years you harvest those and then so on and so on. So what you're creating is this 25 year cash flow machine. Now the kinds of returns are truly outsized. I mean you're talking about double digit ers. Now a lot of people say, well Mike, that's great. But what happens if I need the money in year 15? You can't have it because there is no money in year 15. Your trees are still growing, right? So it's this weird investment timeline. It's almost flatlined until the very end. And then it jumps way up and then it drops back down to a flatline again. And so it'd be silly to put tons of money into teak unless you had thousand times tons of money, right? But for some small piece of your investment portfolio where you have enough cash flow coming in from your maybe your job, your rent, your dividends, whatever, that a small piece that moves into this 25 year cash flow cycle with the thought process that this is how I steward wealth into the future, to children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, because the 25 year cycle is almost generational, right? In fact, in the US, it probably is generational because we're having children in the ages of, you know, 25 to 30.


Michael Cobb (00:18:44) - So it kind of starts to line up with generational income as opposed to, you know, sort of that whatever biweekly, monthly, yearly income. So it's just a different cash flow cycle.


Keith Weinhold (00:18:56) - That's right. And I brought up before that, when you think about the growth of one of your investments, you now get to think about it in two ways. If you own a duplex, it might have growth in its price. However, it doesn't grow into a fourplex and have growth in its price. However, with teak, you might have an increase in the value of the wood, perhaps on a board foot unit basis, and at the same time it is growing in height and volume.


Michael Cobb (00:19:26) - Absolutely no. That's a cute way to say it. I never really thought about a duplex growing into a fourplex, right? That's good. Exactly. And so what you do, you're right. You have the physical growth of the trees. And we have located our plantations in the optimal growing conditions, fatigue. And they are very known.


Michael Cobb (00:19:42) - Right? I mean, the British started plantation growing teak 350 almost 400 years ago in Southeast Asia. And so the Brits have just meticulously kept statistical records of every plantation that they were involved with the altitude, soil type, rainfall, temperature, on and on and on. And so it's really well known exactly where teak will grow well, and both where we have our plantations, it does Nicaragua and Panama, and we'll stick on Panama today, but the locations are dead center bull's eye locations for the best optimal growing of teak. So you have this growth of a physical thing, right. But you mentioned the board foot price. And by the way, the track record on teak being grown in plantations is 350 years. So what a track record, right? But since 1970. Two. The average price of teak over 5152 years has been 5.5% a year. That's the growth in the price of teak, right? And so you know who knows the future, right? I mean, the future is the future, right.


Michael Cobb (00:20:44) - But if a 50 year track record on a 5.5% increase in the value of the teak itself is pretty powerful, right? That's the long track record of nice growth. And when we factor in our teak into our business plan, we take that 5.5 and we make it zero. We just say, what if there is no increase in the price of teak over 25 years? How much will the tree grow? And if that tree is cut down and is sold as lumber? When we'll talk about our Solomon in a minute. If that tree is sold as lumber, what's the value of that lumber today? And what will the tree be worth in that value 25 years from now? And so if things do continue to increase at 5.5% a year, that's just all gravy. And that just starts to take that rate of return and just ratcheted up even further.


Keith Weinhold (00:21:33) - Teak has a number of physical properties that make it valuable, from its beauty to its fire resistance and more. Mike has now touched on a few interesting things.


Keith Weinhold (00:21:44) - We'll come back and talk about that soon, including how you can achieve residency in Panama by owning teak, what the risks are, and more about their sawmill that he just mentioned, adding value to the operation there. And then we're going to talk about what the prices are. We're talking with ECI Development Chairman and CEO Michael Cobb more when we come back. I'm your host, Keith Wynn. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns, or better than a bank savings account, up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains and your W-2 jobs income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love.


Keith Weinhold (00:22:52) - For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, 686, six. Role under this specific expert with income property, you need Ridge Lending Group and MLS for 256 injury history from beginners to veterans. They provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four Plex's. Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge personally. They'll even customize a plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Ridge lending


Speaker 5 (00:23:49) - This is the Real World Network's Cathy Fekete, and you are listening to the always valuable get Rich education with Keith Reinhold.


Keith Weinhold (00:24:06) - You're listening to the SOS created more financial freedom for busy people just like you than nearly any show in the world. This is guitarist education. I'm your host, Keith Whitehill. We're talking with ECI development chairman and CEO Mike Cobb about teak hardwood investing in Panama and Nicaragua.


Keith Weinhold (00:24:22) - Like, tell us more about how one can achieve residency, for example, in Panama if they own teak there maybe just how residency varies from citizenship?


Michael Cobb (00:24:33) - Sure. Well, why don't we start with the second part, how residency differs from citizenship. And there's a good place to start. You know, citizenship is you become a citizen of the country. You have a passport, you can vote. You have every legal right of that country. Right. The decision would have residency to use a US term is like a green card, right? It's the legal permission to live in that country for some period of time. Many of them are permanent. In fact, Panama's is permanent. So once you have a Panama permanent residency, you could literally pick up, you could move there tomorrow, and you could live for the rest of your life in Panama. And so it gives you the legal right to live there. But you don't have a passport. You can't vote. I guess that's the main difference, right? You don't have a passport, you can't vote.


Michael Cobb (00:25:18) - But for most people, in fact, the overwhelming majority of people, a residency delivers exactly what somebody wants, which is the ability to live somewhere. Right? And we don't care if we vote or not. I mean, right, we'd still be citizens of our home country, US, Canada, or wherever we can vote back home or citizen. We have our passport from those countries, but the right to live somewhere else is powerful. And so the teak in Panama qualifies you in two ways for two quarter acre parcels, and then the legal fees and stuff like that. It's just under 22,000. A little less gives you permanent residency in Panama. Right? That's such an affordable way to be able to I call it the back pocket. Right. The insurance policy or the plan B in the sense that, like, I think a lot of folks are worried about the direction things are headed. And, you know, you have the teak parcels, which are going to produce a tremendous return. And then this byproduct that you qualify for and you have to go, you have to get down there a couple times.


Michael Cobb (00:26:16) - I mean, there's a little bit of administrative stuff, some legal fees, that's all included in that 22,000. Right. So that's all included. You have to go there a couple times. So there's a little bit of friction I would say. But when you get finished with that friction, you are a permanent resident of Panama and you only have to go there one day every two years. So you fly down every other year, whatever. Go, go talk to your trees, maybe sing to your trees a little bit, whatever you want to do and fly. All right. And you have a permanent residency. So it's a very easy, fast way to get that plan B now in the future, if you ever said, well, I really love Panama, I'd like to live here. Panama is beautiful. The city itself, it's got skyscrapers, apartments on the 50th floor of use or killer. You can be out on the beach or somewhere. You can be up in the mountains. So there are a lot of different climates and geographies in Panama where you might say to yourself, yeah, I think I want to come down here and live someday.


Michael Cobb (00:27:09) - Well, you already have your residency. You already have the legal right to do that.


Keith Weinhold (00:27:14) - Yeah, I mean, 100%. Now, Panama isn't predominantly English speaking like Belize is, but Panama just has a lot of inherent familiarity and feel to a lot of Americans. Since the canal is there and there is that strong American presence, and they've even dollarization their economy there, for example, in Panama. So it might be that nice plan B for you. And tell us more about the residency and the investment into the sawmill and how that works. So it sounds like there's now a value added component is you essentially vertically integrated and now have this sawmill with the teeth. Tell us more about that.


Michael Cobb (00:27:56) - So we've always factored in the sawmill into the investment proposition. Because if we were to just take the logs for example, 25 years, you cut down the trees, you stick the logs in the container and send them off to China or India, which is where most of the logs go. The return on investments.


Michael Cobb (00:28:13) - It's not great, it's okay, but it's not great. The way you actually get a phenomenal return on investment is you take those logs and you turn them into lumber, which has about a 3 to 4 x differential, or what we call first stage end product or simple end product, which would be something like flooring, which is basically lumber that's been finished one more level rooted and bulldozed so that you can put them together right on a wood floor. So those two modifications from the log all the way to the first degree of finished product, the returns start to really jack it up into that double digit IRR right over 25 years, which again is phenomenal. So we talked about price. But just to give an idea, a $7,000 quarter acre parcel at harvest turned into lumber and first level finished. Product turns into about $94,000, right? So 7000 turns into $90,000, which is a tremendous return. But the way you get that return is to deliver to the marketplace lumber and first grade finished product. And so Soma has always been part of our business plan.


Michael Cobb (00:29:19) - Well, we are now two years away from our harvest on our first plantation, the one I planted back in 1999. Right? I mean, it's incredible thinking that, you know, 20, gosh, 24 years ago planted a teak plantation. So we're two years from harvest. We have one more set of kind of odds and end thinning of just trees that didn't quite grow. Right. We're going to use those thinning over the next couple of years to practice in our sawmill. Because you know what? We are going to make mistakes. I mean, you don't ever get it right the first time. So we're going to make mistakes. We're going to learn from them. And by the time we actually do the real harvest of that first plantation, 100 acres of teak, two years from now, we will be up to speed with our sawmill will size up, we'll capacity up to do that. But yeah, so folks can actually we have a $2 million opening in the sawmill. And it's a real simple formula.


Michael Cobb (00:30:07) - It's two times your money and then a proportionate 10% interest in the sawmill. So for example, just rough numbers off the top of my head. You put in $100,000, you get twice your money back in about a 3 to 4 year period. As a sawmill really becomes operational. We take the first harvest, like the thinning, aren't going to produce much. In fact, we hope to just basically kind of break even over the next two years while we practice. Then we cut down 100 acres of teak. We start putting that through the sawmill, right? So you get two extra money, you invest 100 to get back to 100, and then your return would be about 13 or $14,000 a year. On going after that, because you get a 10% carried interest in the sawmill into the future as well. So that's the investment opportunity that produces a shorter cash flow, much tighter on the cash flow. But then a nice trailer for many years. But the investment is 100,000. So it's a more significant investment than, say, somebody wanting a little bite sized piece of a quarter acre parcel or two quarter acre type parcels paired with the residency that gets you that.


Michael Cobb (00:31:13) - So a couple different levels of investment depending on what your goals are, but also what your timelines are.


Keith Weinhold (00:31:19) - We described the sawmill investment numbers there. And then just to clarify, on the quarter acre parcels, they cost $7,000 each with an expected value or return of $94,000 after 25 years.


Michael Cobb (00:31:37) - That's correct. 6880. I'm using round numbers, but 6880 is the quarter acre teak and right at harvest when it processes through the sawmill. A little over that, but $94,000 is returned to the investor along the way. I'll mention this. There are maintenance fees. It's about $150 a year. We just take a credit card. We just tap it once a year. That takes care of property taxes, thinning, cleaning, anything that they have to do with the plantation. So $150 a year, your maintenance fee. But yeah, 6880 turns into 94,025 years. If teak continues to go up at 5.5% a year, the return would be better than that.


Keith Weinhold (00:32:16) - You probably have investors that come in oftentimes from North America, maybe some from Europe, and they see this as a really low cost of entry, $6,880 for one quarter acre parcel.


Keith Weinhold (00:32:29) - So are there any risks that one should consider? Therefore, if they're a first time investor abroad, maybe something they're not thinking about if they buy a rental single family home in their own hometown?


Michael Cobb (00:32:41) - Yeah. Very different. I mean, in some ways it's very different. In other ways it's pretty similar. Right. You're going to get title to the property. The process of getting title will be a little different. You're going to have to send in copies of your passport, a notarized utility bill. Just some things that you wouldn't have to do if you were buying a property in the States. But at the end of the day, you will get what's called Escritorio Publica public title. So it's a registered land deed. And so that part of it's all pretty similar risk factors. Absolutely. The business plan has them in there. But the big ones are any kind of disease. It's monoculture. So I mean a disease could come through and kill all the trees. Right. The good thing there is, again, teak has a 350 year track record of being managed and grown in plantations.


Michael Cobb (00:33:24) - So it has a long track record where they've kind of figured out, well, if this happens, then do this or if this pest comes along. This is how we, you know, we mitigate that, but nothing can mitigate all risk. That fire is an interesting one. Fire is a risk in the first three years of teak. So we call it baby teak. But once the tea trees are 3 to 4 years old, they're really above any kind of fire. Because you clean the plantation and the guys are in there with the machetes chopping to keep the, you know, the brushed and grass down in the dry season, which, by the way, you mention the qualities of teak, the hardness of teak is actually the most. Prized quality. And so the hardest of the teak that we get will actually be taken and sold as marine lumber, which is an unbelievable differential in price. But only 5 to 10% of your teak would qualify as marine lumber. So it's a small percentage, but the value of that is very, very high because it's set to hardwood.


Michael Cobb (00:34:20) - But the rest of the tree is also likewise very hard. The dry season is what cures the teak. And so in the dry season teak drops its leaves. And so it's very resistant to fire. If you do good maintenance on the plantation, we do so fires only a risk really in the first three years. And we actually warranty the trees of a fire comes through. In the first three years. We replant the plantation for any parts that are burned. So there's sort of a warranty that comes with the first three years. I mean, the other risks are political risk. What if Panama goes off the rails? The good thing about Panama, it's got the canal. And that is a major, vital strategic US interest. I just don't see the US letting Panama kind of go off the rails. But it could. But those I think are the three what I would call main risk factors. And we mitigate those to the best way possible.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:13) - You heard Mike mention about the thinning and cleaning. Yes, there is ongoing management, but that is already handled and taken care of in any of the prices that you already mentioned.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:24) - Is that right, Mike?


Michael Cobb (00:35:25) - Yeah, correct. And we outsource to a company called Geo Forest. All Geo Forest, all. They've been our plantation manager from since 1999. And and they're phenomenal. What they do, their world class. They've been doing it for longer than 25 years, maybe 30 years at this point. But we outsource what we have to outsource because we're not management plantation managers. So we can find folks that are.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:47) - The same property manager for a quarter century, a property manager that actually doesn't get fired. Hey, that's a novel concept. Two times two is what some investors back here in the U.S. are thinking with their residential real estate investments. If you want to learn more about this investment, I encourage you to check it out. You can do that through Gray Marketplace at Gray Mike, do you still offer tours.


Michael Cobb (00:36:16) - Oh my goodness yes. And I hope that you will take us up on the opportunity to come down and see the dairy and province. But yes, we do.


Michael Cobb (00:36:24) - And I don't know the dates off the top of my head, but for folks who are interested, uh, two things. One, we actually run a tour that's fun because it's a group of people and it's just, you know, you come down and you do it. But if somebody says, hey, I can't make those dates, but I want to come see the trees. Yeah, it's very reasonable. I think it's a couple hundred bucks. They pick you up at your hotel, they'll run you out to the plantation, bring you back. But it's a whole day. I mean, it's four hours outside of Panama City and four hours back, so it's a long day. And if it's a couple, it's still 200. It's basically for the vehicle out and back. Right? The driver and the vehicle. So you can come anytime or you can come with a group. And if you come with a group there is no charge. I mean, we get the van or the bus and we pay for it all.


Michael Cobb (00:37:03) - And yeah, we make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and we have fun.


Keith Weinhold (00:37:07) - All right. Well, I think people have probably covered for the tea more than the sandwiches, but that is a nice touch that you do for people because you do that whether someone is a great investor or not, whether they haven't invested at all yet, and they just want to go ahead and check it out. And you can learn more about those dates at GR Mike, it's always such a fun chat to discuss something so exotic. It's been great having you back on the show.


Michael Cobb (00:37:34) - Nice to be back with you. I look forward to seeing you in Panama one of these days.


Keith Weinhold (00:37:43) - Trees grow through recessions, they grow through market cycles, they grow through Covid, and trees just keep growing through every single fed rate decision. The wealthiest families on the planet, the top 1%. They have locked up vast portions of their wealth for timeframes even longer than the 25 year peak harvest cycle. In fact, Harvard has fully 10% of its endowment, specifically in timber.


Keith Weinhold (00:38:11) - To follow up on what I asked earlier, as we're discussing non-residential real estate today, Earth's highest point above sea level is Mount Everest. The highest from base to peak is Monica. But Earth's highest piece of land, uh, the highest point is measured from the center of the Earth is Chimborazo Volcano, Ecuador. That's because Earth is not a perfect sphere. But there's an equatorial bulge. That's what I was climbing ten days ago. Earth's highest real estate, Chimborazo, was also there for the closest real estate to the sun and moon. But back down here at a lower elevation where the teak plantations are in Panama and Nicaragua, there are no loans for teak. But at prices under seven K, many GRI listeners have found that they don't need a loan and they have bought ten or more parcels. But you can buy as few as 1 or 2 a quarter acre teak parcels and then later cash it out for yourself or build that wealth legacy for your family. Kind of like the top 1%. If it sounds interesting to you, learn more.


Keith Weinhold (00:39:22) - Get started at GR Until next week. I'm your host, Keith Wild. Don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 6 (00:39:34) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively. The.


Keith Weinhold (00:40:02) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich

Direct download: GREepisode490_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

You’ll get an exact mortgage rate prediction from the President of the lending company that’s provided investors with more financial freedom than anyone in the nation. 

Learn how to best access your equity, yet keep your low mortgage rate first loan untouched.

In this Get Rich Education podcast episode, host Keith Weinhold and guest Caeli Ridge, President of Ridge Lending Group, delve into the direction of mortgage rates. 

They highlight the importance of understanding today’s environment and discuss refinancing opportunities in the current market. 

Caeli outlines various loan products available to investors and predicts over 50% of appraisals now come in high, indicating strong future valuations. 

She also forecasts higher mortgage rates to persist, with a possible Fed Funds Rate reduction by June and a 6.125% rate for 30-year fixed mortgages, non-OO, with 25% down, by the end of 2024. 

The episode emphasizes education and strategic planning in real estate investment.

I get my own loans at Ridge. You can too at


The impact of inflation on real estate investing (00:00:00)

Discusses leveraging properties to increase wealth, the relationship between mortgage rates and real estate, and the impact of inflation on property values.

Understanding the importance of mortgage rates (00:03:52)

Explores the neutral relationship real estate investors have with mortgage rates, the impact of mortgage rates on home affordability, and the significance of current mortgage rates.

Historical perspective on home price affordability (00:06:18)

Provides insights into the historical trends in home affordability, comparing past and current median home prices and the impact of inflation on home values.

The power of leverage in borrowing (00:10:14)

Illustrates the impact of inflation on loan principal balances and monthly mortgage payments, emphasizing the benefits of optimizing borrowing.

Mortgage rate prediction and refinancing trends (00:16:57)

Discusses the future direction of mortgage rates, refinancing trends, and the importance of considering interest rates in the context of overall investment strategies.

Explanation of high points charged on investment property loans (00:23:12)

Provides an explanation for the high points charged on investment property loans, related to the servicing of mortgage-backed securities and the absence of prepayment penalties.

Accessing Equity with HELOC and HE Loan (00:24:21)

Discussion on accessing equity using keylock and HE loan, including LTV ratios and interest rate comparisons.

Trade-offs Between HELOC and HE Loan (00:25:27)

Comparison of trade-offs between keylock and HE loan, including flexibility and interest payment structures.

Considerations for Second Mortgages (00:26:36)

Exploration of the benefits of having a second mortgage as an option and the potential drawbacks related to minimum draw requirements.

Blended Mortgage Rates (00:27:56)

Explanation of how to calculate blended mortgage rates based on the balances and interest rates of first and second mortgages.

Appetite for Adjustable Rate Mortgages (00:28:44)

Assessment of the current environment for adjustable rate mortgages and comparison with fixed-rate mortgages.

Obstacles for New and Repeat Investors (00:29:45)

Common obstacles faced by new and repeat real estate investors, including understanding investment goals and managing debt-to-income ratios.

Forecast for Mortgage Rates (00:33:45)

Prediction for future mortgage rates based on inflation indicators and the potential impact of the Fed's decisions.

Loan Types Offered by Ridge Lending Group (00:35:54)

Overview of the various loan types offered by Ridge Lending Group, including Fannie and Freddie loans, non-QM loans, and commercial loans.

Resources and Tools for Investors (00:38:03)

Information about free resources and tools available on the Ridge Lending Group website, including simulators and educational content.

Conclusion and Recommendation (00:39:38)

Summary of the discussion with Caeli Ridge and a recommendation to explore the services offered by Ridge Lending Group for real estate financing needs.

Resources mentioned:

Show Page:

Ridge Lending Group:

Call 855-74-RIDGE

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. 

You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

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Complete episode transcript:


Keith Weinhold (00:00:00) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. A new take on how to profit from inflation. The best strategies for accessing equity from your property while leaving your low rate loan in place. A surprising trend with real estate appraisals. Then the president of one of the most prominent national mortgage companies joins me to give a firm mortgage rate prediction today on get rich education. If you like the Get Rich Education podcast, you're going to love our Don't Quit Your Daydream newsletter. No, a eye here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free sign up egg get rich It's real content that makes a real difference in your life. Spice with a dash of humor rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting GRE to 66866. Text GRE to 66866.


Speaker 2 (00:01:11) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world.


Speaker 2 (00:01:18) - This is Get Rich Education.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:27) - Welcome to Gary from Oak Park Heights, Minneapolis, to Crown Heights, Brooklyn in New York City and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and this is Get Rich education. When you have that epiphany, that leverage creates wealth, it can be enough to make you want to be the town iconoclast. Walk around, beat your chest, and boldly proclaim that financially free beats debt free. You might remember that I helped drive that point home a few weeks ago when I talked about the old fourplex owner, Patrick, who owned his fourplex next to mine years ago. He wanted to pay his down and I wanted to leverage mine up. I told you then that rushing to pay off one property by making extra payments on the principal is like drilling a deep hole into one property. And the deeper you drill, the more likely that hole is to cave in. Your return goes down and now you've got more of your prosperity tied up in just one property, just one neighborhood and just one market.


Keith Weinhold (00:02:34) - The most sure fire way to wealth, and exactly what wealthy people do, is optimize and almost maximize the number of properties that you own. And as long as you buy right as they inevitably inflate, just keep borrowing against them. And that way you never have to pay capital gains tax either. And that goes beyond just real estate. That's assets of many types. You'll want to own more assets. The way to do that is with more loans. And paradoxically, that is why the richest people have the most debt. As you watch your debt column grow, watch your column grow even faster. And as we're talking about mortgages and the direction of interest rates today, us as real estate investors, you and I, we have a somewhat neutral relationship with mortgage rates. Yeah, it's often a neutral relationship. Now, prospective homebuyers, they often want mortgage rates to be low. Sellers often want rates to be low two so that they'll have more home bidders, legacy landlords, ones that own a bunch of property and they're not buying anymore.


Keith Weinhold (00:03:52) - They often want mortgage rates to be high because it hurts first time homebuyer affordability, and then it keeps the rents high and it keeps the occupancy high. And then you and I see we both own real estate. We also look to opportunistically put more in our portfolio. Well then we want rates to be high in a sense and low in a sense too. So you might have relative neutrality, feeling aloof about it all because you're thinking about it from both sides. But in any case, we can always predict the future. But the one thing that you know for sure is what you have now. A lot of people don't optimize their potential for what they have now. Instead, they speculate about the future. Now, one thing a lot of people have now is so many Americans are still loving their 3% and 4% mortgage rates they locked in 2 or 3 years ago, and they're refusing to give it up. However, over the past two years, when the number of real estate listings were at historic lows, a lot of life changing events have occurred in the past two years 7 million newborn babies with a need for a larger sized home and a desire to get out of the starter home.


Keith Weinhold (00:05:11) - Also in the last two years, 3 million marriages, including some of those marriages, are among older couples who now need to sell a home that can help solve the market. And then, of course, most home sellers. They also become home buyers. Next, they need another place to live. So home sellers, they often don't add a net one to the supply. We had a million and a half divorces, 7 million Americans turning 65 years old that might want to trade down during the retirement years and also during the last two years. Consider that there were 4 million deaths and 50 million job changes, some of those inconsequential, while others with fundamentally changed commuting patterns. So the point here is that life moves on. For some, though still a minority, but a growing minority, it is time to give up the three and 4% mortgage rate. Still not enough of them, but for better or worse, that is what it's going to take to move this market and put some available supply out there.


Keith Weinhold (00:06:18) - Now, today we have apparently finally just come off this period where home price of. Affordability had hit 40 year lows for 40 years for decades. Again, with low affordability, you dislike that if you're a home buyer or seller, you might feel neutral about low affordability as a landlord or a real estate investor because it makes your new purchases less affordable. But it keeps your renters as renters when you buy that income property. From an affordability standpoint, the very best time to buy was 2013. Yep, 2013 is when prices hadn't fully recovered from the GFC and mortgage rates had fallen dramatically. Now, to open up that range in years, from an affordability standpoint, it was just a sensational time to buy a home or property from 2009 to 2021, just historically extraordinary, that sensational affordability level during that decade or so, 2009 to 2021, that added to the exceptional rise in home values over end since that time. But yeah, a few months ago, affordability reached its worst level in 40 years and it has since improved.


Keith Weinhold (00:07:43) - I mean, 40 year lows in affordability reach then in 1984 and what happened in 1984, that is when Ronald Reagan defeated Walter Mondale for his second presidential term. Steve Jobs launched the Macintosh personal computer. John Schnatter opened the first Papa John's store in Indiana. LeBron James was born in 1984, and on television running were The Cosby Show and The Dukes of Hazzard. Hey, if you were alive then and you watch those shows, um, I know you wouldn't confess to watching Charles in Charge back then, and you'll never get back those socially redeeming hours that you spent watching Punky Brewster, and you would not admit to doing that either. What is this show, the Jeffersons still on TV in 1984? Look into that. Yeah. You know, that was kind of a real estate ish show. The deluxe apartment in the sky. Yes. It was on then. Yeah. Sherman Hemsley, Isabel Sanford Q that up.


Speaker UU (00:08:55) - Where we're moving on now? All up to this island, to a deluxe apartment in the sky.


Keith Weinhold (00:09:06) - Yeah, they even had the episode where the landlord came over and threatened not to renew their lease. I'll tell you. Has there ever been a television show in history where the landlord was depicted as a good guy? I mean, a landlord in television, they're always cast is a money hungry bad guy that won't fix anything, or is just trying to unscrupulously kick out the tenant, a slack jawed slumlord, every single time. I never really understood that show's theme music, either Beans or Burden on the grill or something. Let's get back to mortgage loans. Understand this. It might be in a way that, okay, you've never thought about it before. It's the power of leverage in borrowing. Now, you probably won't hold any 30 year fixed rate loan all 30 years in reality, but they'll make this effect clear. Let's just act like you have done this on a property. Now the median home price is near 400 K today. But what was it not 40 years ago, but in this case 30 years ago? All right.


Keith Weinhold (00:10:14) - So 1994, per the Fred numbers, which are sourced from the census and HUD, it was 130 K. Yes, a 130 K median priced home in 1994. So then if you put a 20% down payment on that property, you'd have a loan principal balance of 104 K. Now imagine it was an interest only loan somehow, and you still just owed a 104 K balance on that home today, whose median price is up to 400 K. Well, that 104 K. That just seems like a little math that you could almost swat away. I mean, this is how inflation makes the numbers of yesteryear feel tiny. But now if you're 104 K loan were an amortizing loan and the principal were being paid down to hopefully all principal pay down made by the tenant. During all those years, mortgage rates were 9% back then. So if you were making the final payment today on what's now still a median priced home, today your mortgage payment would just be 837 bucks a month. It feels like nothing. Inflation benefited you both ways on the total principal balance and the monthly payment.


Keith Weinhold (00:11:35) - Just feeling lighter and lighter and lighter in inflation adjusted terms now. And if your mortgage rate were 6% on that property, your payment would only be 623 bucks. You might have refinanced to something like that. I mean, 623 bucks. That is lower than the average new car payment today of 726. But if you had not gotten that loan back in 1994 and instead would have paid all cash for the 130 K property, were you 130 K all cash that was put into the property back then? Well, that would have had the purchasing power of today's approximately 400 K reflected in the price of today's median priced home. But to take it back ten years further to 1984, the George Jefferson year, the median home price was 80 K and your loan would be 60 4k. I mean, these numbers feel like little toys or almost lunch money or something. So this is the power of optimizing your borrowing and perhaps but not quite maximizing your borrowing power because that does risk over leverage. That is the inflation profiting benefit that you're feeling right there.


Keith Weinhold (00:12:59) - Coming up in just a few minutes, the president of one of the most prominent national mortgage companies for investor loans will be here with me. We're going to talk about mortgage rates some more, the overall temperature of the mortgage market. And I expect that she'll give a firm mortgage rate prediction for where we're going to be at year end, because she's done that with us before. They see so many investor loans in there at their lending companies. They've really got a great pulse on the market. We have set up the makeshift gray studio again for yet another week. Here is this week I'm in Nevada, where I will be the best man at my brother's wedding. I have been on the road a lot lately. That's what a geography guy like me does. Gotta get out and see the world. Life is meant to be lived, not postpone. Before we discuss both general and some intermediate Murray's concepts shortly. If you happen to be new to real estate investing. And you just like to listen to that one episode that tells you, step by step, how to get started and how to build your credit score and make an offer on a property, and best navigate the inspection process and the property appraisal inside the management agreement and more.


Keith Weinhold (00:14:15) - You can find that on get Rich Education podcast episode 368. It's simply called How to Buy Your First Rental Property. More next. I'm Keith Reinhold, you're listening to get Rich education. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains and your W-2 jobs income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation.


Keith Weinhold (00:15:24) - If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, 686, six. Role under the specific expert with income property, you need Ridge Lending Group and MLS for 256. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four plex's. Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge. Personally, though, even customized plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Ridge lending


Speaker 3 (00:16:12) - Hi, this is Tom Hopkins, and I can't tell you how smart you are to be with get rich education and make these ideas you.


Keith Weinhold (00:16:32) - What is the future direction of mortgage rates? How do you qualify for more mortgage loans at the best terms with the lowest interest rates, and Americans have at near record equity levels in their properties? So what's the best way to access that equity yet? Keep your low rate mortgage in place. We're answering all of that today with a company president that's created more financial freedom through real estate than any other lender in the entire nation.


Keith Weinhold (00:16:57) - That is, the top tier and eponymous ridge lending group is time for a big welcome back to Charlie Ridge. Keith, you flatter me. Thank you very much.


Caeli Ridge (00:17:07) - I'm very happy to be here, sir. Good to see you.


Keith Weinhold (00:17:09) - Well, you help us here because debt and loan are our favored four letter words around here at gray. Can you help us efficiently optimize them both, Charlie? Interest rates have just been on so many people's minds. Shortly after, they had their all time low in January of 2021, and they since rose and then have settled down. Charlie, I've been trying to think through myself why people seem to put this over emphasis on the interest rate now. It's surely important. It is your cost of money. But the way I've thought that people overemphasize the rate is because maybe people love to discuss the direction of interest rates, even more so than real estate prices in rents is because prices and rents nearly always go up in interest rates can go up and down. So therefore it's maybe more interesting for people to talk about.


Keith Weinhold (00:17:57) - I also think about how rates sort of tap into that human fear of loss by paying interest, trumping the triumph of gain through cash flow or appreciation. And then maybe as well, it's because higher mortgage rates, they mean higher rates of all types which permeate into all of one's life's debt. So these are my thoughts about why people maybe put an over emphasis on mortgage interest rates. What are your thoughts?


Caeli Ridge (00:18:23) - I'm sure there's probably something to that. And you're right, Keith. Interest rates are always the hot topic. Everybody wants to talk about interest rates. I think that overall though, it is a lack of education and there's a psychology to it. You and I have talked about interest rates at nauseam over the years, and I do understand, but I think you and I agree, because we live in this space and we're constantly looking at the math. They are probably third or fourth on the list of priorities. When you're deciding on if this investment is valid. For fitting into my goal box, I think it's more about getting information out there and informing the masses about interest rates, and doing that math to make sure that they're not just pigeonholing themselves into keeping a 3% interest rate, or not expanding their portfolio because they're afraid of giving up what they have and not really realizing the power of the equity, the tax deduction, the rent increases.


Caeli Ridge (00:19:15) - All of those variables are often ignored when people start talking about interest rates, until you start to have that reasonable, rational conversation that helps them identify what the math is. Because the math won't lie, right? The math will not lie.


Keith Weinhold (00:19:29) - Yeah, that's right. Things more important than interest rate with an investment property might be the price you're paying for that property, or the level of rent that's there, or even maybe knowing you already have a good property manager that you trust in that market where that property is. But of course, rates matter somewhat. Now we're going to get a future looking prediction from you later. But your last mortgage rate prediction, Charlie, you may not remember the details of it. It was made here on the show in November of 2022. That's when rates were 7%. Back at that time, you said that rates should keep climbing but at a slower pace, and that happened. And you predicted the peak by spring of 2023 of 7.625%. What happened is in October of 2023, they hit 7.8% per Freddie Mac.


Keith Weinhold (00:20:17) - So you almost completely nailed it because most everyone believes that that was the peak for this cycle. And if so, you're within a few months in just 2/10 of 1% of identifying the peak.


Caeli Ridge (00:20:32) - Thank you Keith. I appreciate that acknowledgement. I get it right a lot. My crystal ball has been broken several times over, especially the last couple of years, so I'll want to acknowledge that too. I pay attention to the fed and as a good friend of mine is always saying, don't fight the fed if you are listening to what they're saying, actually listening to the words that are coming out of their mouths, it's not too terribly hard to kind of predict where we're going to be in certain milestones of any given year. So I do have a good prediction for this year. We'll share later. As you said, rates are not completely irrelevant. I just want to impress upon your listeners that they really should be looking at the investment holistically, and not just laser focused on that interest rate. There's more to it.


Keith Weinhold (00:21:15) - That was excellent. You have more audacity than me when it comes to predicting interest rates. It's a business I typically stay out of, so I'm going to outsource that to you later. I'll predict things like real estate prices, but I think rates are notoriously difficult. And what's happened with rates now that they have come off their peak substantially from back in October of 2023. What's happened with the refinance business, is that something that's picked up again there?


Caeli Ridge (00:21:39) - Yeah, we're starting to see a bit more. I would say that last year refi numbers were down right for obvious reasons. But we are seeing some more business in the refinance department. I think depending on the individual and largely the strategy of the investment, the long term versus the mid-term versus the short term, we're seeing a little bit more on the refi side for the short term rentals than we are in the long term. But overall, yes, I would agree that they're starting to pick up. I may mention to Keith it might be useful for the listeners.


Caeli Ridge (00:22:06) - So while I agree, we've seen that interest rates started on their descent, which was great news, everybody was excited to see that. We're still finding that the points that are being secured or paid on, especially investment property loans, are still on the high end of the spectrum. And for those that aren't aware of the why behind that, how might be important. Just to mention that when we talk about mortgage backed securities, the overall servicing of these mortgage backed securities that are bought and sold and traded on on the secondary markets, they're pretty smart in forecasting when rates are high, what happens to those mortgages? When they come back down, they start to refinance, right? They start to pay off. And the servicing rights of these loans take 2 to 3 years before they're even profitable. So the servicers and the secondary markets know that they have to charge those extra points to hedge their losses, because when the loans that they're paying for and servicing today are going to pay off in six months or 12 months, they're going to be at a loss.


Caeli Ridge (00:23:01) - If it takes them 24 to 36 months to be profitable. That's why investors are seeing especially investors are seeing extra points being charged on the loans that they're securing today.


Keith Weinhold (00:23:12) - Oh, that's a great explanation. And really, this is because there's no prepayment penalty associated with residential mortgage loans in the United States typically. So therefore, the person that's on the back end of these loans, the investor there needs to be sure that they're compensated somehow when one goes ahead and maybe refinances out of their loan at a presumably lower interest rate, maybe in as little as 12 months or so.


Caeli Ridge (00:23:39) - Yes, sir. Exactly right. Yeah. And prepayment penalties on conventional. There are no prepayment penalties on conventional. Just to clarify on a non QM product which of course we have to, you know, debt service coverage ratio products etc. on non-owner occupied those typically will have prepayment penalties. But the Fannie Freddie stuff, the GSE stuff no prepay ever.


Keith Weinhold (00:23:57) - Now the rates have come down presumably off their peak in this cycle. You know, I think a lot of people wonder about all right now, what's a prudent way for me to harvest my equity since we have near-record equity levels in property and yet keep my low rate mortgage in place? I think a lot of people don't even understand that you can do that and take a second mortgage to access some of that dead equity.


Keith Weinhold (00:24:20) - What are your thoughts?


Caeli Ridge (00:24:21) - I love a keylock in general. We do now have one of our newer product lines is a second lien lock. We have two options there. Both of them cap at 70% LTV. That's combined loan to value. So all you need to do to figure out what you're going to have access to is take the value that you think the property would appraise for times 70% from that number, subtract the first lien balance, and that will give you what your line on a key lock. Secondly, and position you lock would be. And I love it.


Keith Weinhold (00:24:49) - All right. So therefore if one has 50% equity in a property they could access 20% more up to that 70% CLTV. That combined loan to value ratio between your first mortgage and your second mortgage, which might take the form of a keylock a home equity line of credit.


Caeli Ridge (00:25:07) - Perfectly said. We also have second lien he loans worth mention. He loan is really exactly the same thing as your first lien mortgage. It's a fixed rate.


Caeli Ridge (00:25:15) - Second it's just in second lean position 30 year fixed. Those go to 85% CLTV. So you get quite a bit more leverage. But the rates are going to be on the 1,213% range.


Keith Weinhold (00:25:27) - That's interesting. Tell us about some more of the trade offs between the key lock, where we typically have a fixed rate period in a floating period afterwards, and the he loan some more of those trade offs as we devise our strategy.


Caeli Ridge (00:25:41) - Yeah. The key lock is variable right. The interest rate can change. As you said. The reason I prefer the He lock, if the numbers made sense, is that you're only paying interest on monies that you're using at that point in time. So if you had $100,000 key lock and you're only using 20,000 of it for whatever investment purposes or whatever, then you're paying interest just on the 20 that he loan is exactly as you would expect. You're getting all of that money at once, and you will be paying interest on all of it, whether or not you're using it.


Caeli Ridge (00:26:10) - There's less flexibility on a key loan. While it does provide extra leverage, I do generally prefer that he lock.


Keith Weinhold (00:26:18) - Now, sometimes a question that I've asked myself in the past, Charlie, when I was new as an investor, is sort of why wouldn't I take a second mortgage? He lock or he loan? Because I don't necessarily have to draw against it, but it might be good for me to have it as an option just to be sure that it's there.


Caeli Ridge (00:26:36) - Absolutely. Especially the key lock, because like I said, I will not pay interest on anything you're not using. And to have it when the time comes, right. If you want to be prepared, which I think is huge. We both agree there. The one thing I would mention about that though, is oftentimes on the helocs there will be a minimum draw at closing. You can put it right back after closing, but chances are there's going to be a 50,000 or 100,000 minimum draw, depending on what the line limit is.


Caeli Ridge (00:27:01) - Maybe 75% of the entire limit is what the minimum draw would be. But again, you can put it right back after closing. So maybe you pay 30 days of interest on that before you're able to to stick it back in the lock. Otherwise, it's one of my favorite strategies for investors and having access to those funds when the time comes.


Keith Weinhold (00:27:20) - That's an interesting piece there. So you as an investor is you're devising your strategy as you're looking at the equity position in your own home as well as your rental properties. Maybe you're looking at a low rate of, say, you have a 4% mortgage loan, but you've had a bloated equity position, and you go ahead and you take out a second mortgage in any of the forms of Charlie is talking about. And that second mortgage has, say, a 10% interest rate. Well, you don't simply take the 4% on your first loan and your 10% on the second and average it and say, well, now I'm paying 7%. Of course, you have to wait those averages.


Keith Weinhold (00:27:56) - It's pretty likely that you have a higher mortgage balance on your first loan than your second loan. So depending on their balances, therefore, if your first mortgage has a 4% interest rate and your second mortgage has a 10% interest rate, you're blended rate might be something like five and a half.


Caeli Ridge (00:28:10) - Exactly right. And there's all kinds of tools and calculators online. If somebody wanted to check that out you can find them very easily. Just the weighted average of mortgage rates. And you can plug in your numbers. It'll tell you exactly if you're using this amount or this amount or whatever it is, what your weighted average would be.


Keith Weinhold (00:28:27) - Yeah, definitely important for you as an investor checking your arbitrage and your cash flow. Certainly, Charlie, I wonder now that we are in an environment finally where rates have actually fallen, how is the appetite for arms adjustable rate mortgages looked in there?


Caeli Ridge (00:28:44) - We're still on what's called an inverted yield from the 0809 housing and lending kind of debacle, we found ourselves in a place where adjustable rate mortgage or arm's actually priced in interest rate higher than a 30 year fixed, creating that inverted yield.


Caeli Ridge (00:28:58) - We have yet to see the correction of that. So we're still kind of in that place where depending on the characteristics of the transaction, the arm might be a higher interest rate. Maybe it's about the same as the 30 year fixed. If there is a scenario where the arm is lower, it might be an eighth or a quarter of a percentage point. So it's unlikely that we would recommend an arm over a fixed. There'd be have to be some very specific circumstances. If it's only a quarter point improvement to rate for a five year arm versus a 30 year fixed.


Keith Weinhold (00:29:26) - Charlie, you deal with so many investors in there, both newer investors and veteran real estate investors. So when we talk first about the new investors, are there any just sort of common obstacles to overcome that you see in there for people that are looking to get their first investment property?


Caeli Ridge (00:29:45) - I think they're why a lot of times we'll have investors come to us and really not even understand more than they just don't want their money in the stock market anymore, and they want to find another venue or another vehicle in which to create their investment freedom, their financial freedom through.


Caeli Ridge (00:29:59) - So I would say for brand new investors, really start to ask that question, what is your why? What is it that you want to get out of this? Do you want total replacement income of your ordinary income today? Do you love what you do for work and you just want supplemental income? How much does that income need to be? Does it need to be what you're making today? Can it be a little bit less? Does it need to be more based on what you expect your lifestyle to be? So lots of different questions to be asking yourself. So I would say that commonly just really understanding at least a baseline. And then we can start connecting some dots together and planting seeds that I talk about a baseline of, of what it is that you're hoping to accomplish through real estate.


Keith Weinhold (00:30:37) - So that's what you often see with the beginning investor. How about that repeat investor. Their obstacles to overcome that are common in there on expanding one's portfolio. Maybe that's a debt to income ratio threshold that one reaches and you need to strategize with them there.


Caeli Ridge (00:30:54) - Yeah, the debt to income ratio problem ultimately when you get there is probably a good problem to have, right when you're having to have conversations that way. I think that the obstacles to overcome is making sure that you have a good support team, and I think that would start with your lender, someone that has a multitude of loan products that aren't just one size fits all. I would say that we check that box very well, but strategizing. One of my favorite conversations with my clients is having those strategy one on one calls about their debt to income ratio and figuring out from a scheduling perspective, how can we maximize their deductions, because that's one of the beautiful things about real estate investing, right? Is that schedule E so maximizing over there without it taking you over certain thresholds to continue to qualify, there can be a weighted scale there as well. And those are the conversations that we have with our clients usually earlier in the year. But we're always looking at our client's draft tax returns. That's important.


Caeli Ridge (00:31:47) - Before you ring that bell, get us copies of your draft tax returns so that we can run the math, and we'll even show them how the pluses and minuses work. It's pretty interesting to most people. And then come up with a solution that says, okay, if you want to do this for 2024, here are our recommendations X, Y, or Z. And then they can make the informed decision that fits what their goals are for the year.


Keith Weinhold (00:32:08) - Yeah, these are the scenarios that a mortgage loan company that specializes in income property loans can help you with your future planning. How can you set yourself up considering your personal situation, your tax deductions, how much income do you want to show, and all those sorts of things to give you more runway to add income properties to your portfolio. And you do see so many scenarios in there and so many investors. Sometimes when you're here, I like to ask you to get a temperature of the appraisal market. What percent of appraisals are you seeing coming high on and what percent are coming in low? Approximately.


Caeli Ridge (00:32:43) - We're probably over 50% on the high, but not by any large margin. I'll see 10,015 thousand regularly over what we had expected in the actual value. Pretty commonly, just right on the money, right on the mark. I think it's real market specific, to be sure. I don't see that the short values come in all that much. If it is, generally it's probably because the investor is brand new, didn't unfortunately talk to us in advance. They were doing the BR method and they didn't get the right comps or have the right advice about what that RV might end up being. So they got trapped in a situation where they learned the hard way.


Keith Weinhold (00:33:21) - Interesting. I don't know that I remember that from the past, where more than 50% of appraisals have come in high. That pretends well for future valuations, at least here in the near term. All right, Charlie, well, we talked about your record with mortgage rate predictions here and how good that track record was. Why don't you let us know where you think mortgage rates are going to be by the end of 2024.


Caeli Ridge (00:33:45) - I do think that the rates are going to be higher for longer. Don't fight the fed, remember? Listen to what they have to say. I would preface this by saying that all of the indicators for inflation, except for one of them, have been hot to the side. That does not help us with interest rates. The employment jobs report, you've got the CPI, all these different metrics have come in hot where they're higher than what we would want to see them for that inflationary measure, where the feds have been extremely clear that they want to hit that 2% mark, where that number came from, I don't know. That's another conversation. There's only been one metric that actually worked to the rate environment to get it lowered, which is the PCE, the personal consumption expenditure. For those that aren't familiar with that acronym, I think they're going to be higher for longer. There's been a lot of headlines out there saying that I'm getting to a rate. I promise. I'm just going to to preface this first, that March might be the first reduction in the fed funds rate, which, by the way, remember, is not the same as a long term 30 year fixed mortgage rate.


Caeli Ridge (00:34:42) - There are links to them, but they are different. I don't think that's going to happen. I think that if we're going to see rates come down, the first fed funds rate reduction, probably sometime in June, is where I may put my predictions. And then by the end of the year, the interest rate, I'm going to put at 6.125 for 30 year fixed mortgages and non-owner occupied purchase with 25% down. That's my prediction.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:09) - You are on the record though, and it's so interesting, at least with what the fed does with rates generally. It's like an entire world where good news is bad news, right? If you've got great job growth and great GDP, well, that's bad news because they're probably going to keep rates high since those things tend to keep inflation high. It's like, what if you want the lowest mortgage rate, everyone in the world would be unemployed except you. You know, it's just so funny. I'm glad you said that. Yeah.


Caeli Ridge (00:35:36) - The worse the economy is, the better the rates are.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:38) - Yeah. That's right. You offer so many products in there, mostly to investors, but you have other ones that it's not just for buy and hold type of investors. It's for those that are doing better strategies like you mentioned in other strategies. Well, you tell us about all the loan types that you offer in there.


Caeli Ridge (00:35:54) - Yeah, we do have quite a few. Thank you for asking. So we start with the Fannie Freddie's. We call these the golden tickets. Everybody. Highest leverage, lowest interest rate. A lot of times the newer investors will start by exhausting those. There are ten per qualified individual. If you're a married couple, you can have up to 20, as you and I have talked about in the past, Keith. Beyond that, we've got something called Non-cumulative. QM stands for Qualified Mortgage. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are the definition of what a qualified mortgage is. So everything outside of that box of underwriting is now non QM. And non QM in and of itself is extremely diverse, not just for investors, for anybody, but within that subset of product you've got debt service coverage ratio where there is no personal income documentation.


Caeli Ridge (00:36:33) - It's all about the properties rents divided by the payment. We have bank statement loans in there. We've got asset depletion. So if you've got $1 million in an exchange, a stock exchange account, there's a formula that we can use to utilize that as income. Beyond that, we have short term bridge loans for those that are fixed and flipping or fixed and holding where you need cash for the purchase and the renovation or rehab. So we have second lien helocs. Those are newer to our product line. So I'm pretty excited about those. We touched on that. We have commercial loans for commercial property, commercial loans for residential if it were applicable. And then of course the all in one, which is a first lien Helocs still my favorite, but we've spent lots of time talking about that. So that's probably a good overview or at least abbreviated checklist of products we have.


Keith Weinhold (00:37:16) - And I've got investor loans in there myself or new purchases I've done investor loans in there myself or Refinancings. I mean, you're who I go to for my own loans and you're in nearly all 50 states, right? And these are the states where the property is not where the investor resides.


Caeli Ridge (00:37:34) - Yes, sir. Exactly right. We are in 48 states. We are not in New York or North Dakota. Otherwise we're going to be funding everywhere that they're looking to purchase, refi, sell, etc..


Keith Weinhold (00:37:45) - We'll let our audience know where they can learn more, because I know you offer a lot of good free tools, like something we didn't get a chance to talk about a first lien helocs all in one loan. Like for example, you have a simulator there when an investor can just go ahead and run through that. So we're one find all of those resources.


Caeli Ridge (00:38:03) - So check out our website. There's a lot of good information on there. Lots of video content free education. The simulator link will be on there. If you wanted to check out the comparison between what you have now, your 3% interest rate, or your 2.5% interest rate compared to this all in one. I'll tell you guys that I've run that scenario all the time, and people are very surprised when they see that this adjustable rate first line is beating the pants off of a 2.25% rate.


Caeli Ridge (00:38:26) - So check that out. Our community is in the website we meet every other Tuesday. It's called live with Charlie. That's Ridge Lending group. Com. Email us info at Ridge Lending Group. Com and then you can call us of course toll free at (855) 747-4343. The easy way to remember is 85574 Ridge.


Keith Weinhold (00:38:45) - Charlie Ridge. Informative as always. And brazen. With the mortgage rate predictions. You can learn more about how they can help you at Ridge Lending It's been great having you back on the show Charlie.


Caeli Ridge (00:38:58) - Thank you Keith.


Keith Weinhold (00:39:06) - Oh, yeah, there's such experienced pros in there. And as you can see, they offer nearly every loan type. In fact, there were so many that I almost asked her, do you even loan lunch money to elementary school kids? Uh, because, uh, because they've seemingly got a loan type for most every real estate investment scenario that there is primary residence loans as well. Helpful people over there at Ridge. In fact, I even visited their headquarters office and I was hosted by Charlie there one day.


Keith Weinhold (00:39:38) - See what they can do for you in there. They are real strategists in helping you grow your real estate portfolio, going beyond just what a typical retail mortgage company does. It helps people with primary residences. You can join their free community events too, and they've really expanded their educational offerings to a giant degree the past couple of years. Financially free beats debt free, and she helps bring it to life and make it real. So big thanks to Charlie Ridge at Ridge Lending Group. Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Wangled. Don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 5 (00:40:17) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.


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Learn the pros and cons of bitcoin, the world’s largest cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin can be moved well across space and time. You can’t move dollars over time due to inflation; you can’t  move gold over space due to weight and security concerns.

Real estate, bitcoin, and gold are all scarce and take real-world resources to produce.

Bitcoin is a global digital currency that’s decentralized.

Nick Giambruno joins us to discuss why bitcoin has value today. 

Since there can only be 21 million bitcoin, it cannot be debased like dollars are.

By April, bitcoin will experience a halving. Rather than 900 new bitcoins brought into issuance daily, there will be 450. 

The SEC’s recent Spot EFT approval will give more investors bitcoin access.

The higher the stock-to-flow ratio, the harder the asset. 

What about governments shutting down bitcoin, regulating it, or taxing it to death? We discuss.

Bitcoin price volatility is a problem in currency adoption.

Lots of energy is used in bitcoin mining. But much of it is stranded energy.

Bitcoin cannot produce income.

Keith Weinhold stresses his preferred way to hold bitcoin.


Bitcoin's value proposition (00:00:01)

Keith Weinhold introduces the topic of Bitcoin's value and why it is relevant to a real estate show.

Jamie Dimon's criticism of Bitcoin (00:05:27)

JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon expresses his disdain for Bitcoin and blockchain technology in a heated conversation.

Bitcoin's resistance to debasement (00:07:19)

Keith Weinhold discusses the resistance of Bitcoin to debasement and the skepticism of governments and financial institutions towards it.

The origin and value of Bitcoin (00:08:18)

Nick Giambruno, an international investor, explains the history and value proposition of Bitcoin, emphasizing its decentralization and resistance to debasement.

Bitcoin's hardness and production rate (00:14:21)

Nick Giambruno delves into the concept of Bitcoin's hardness and its production requirements, comparing it to other assets like gold and real estate.

Bitcoin's upcoming halving event (00:16:28)

Nick Giambruno discusses the significance of Bitcoin's upcoming halving event, which will impact its stock-to-flow ratio and reinforce its value proposition.

Bitcoin's scarcity (00:19:42)

Bitcoin's limited supply and its unique scarcity attribute, compared to other commodities like gold.

Upcoming halving event and Bitcoin ETF approval (00:20:53)

Discussion on the significance of the upcoming halving event and the approval of a new spot for Bitcoin ETF, indicating the growing acceptance of Bitcoin.

Bitcoin as a currency and value proposition (00:22:42)

The value of Bitcoin as a currency for transferring value and its resistance to debasement, emphasizing the importance of self-custody of Bitcoin.

Global adoption of Bitcoin (00:24:30)

Comparison of Bitcoin adoption in different nations, highlighting the potential benefits for early adopters and the impact of Bitcoin on the world's financial landscape.

Bitcoin's market potential and investment consideration (00:27:27)

The potential market share of Bitcoin in the global economy and the consideration of Bitcoin as an investment asset.

Government's ability to regulate Bitcoin (00:34:11)

Discussion on the government's potential regulation and taxation of Bitcoin, emphasizing the power of economic incentives and Bitcoin's resilience to government intervention.

Bitcoin's uniqueness and credibility (00:36:12)

Differentiating Bitcoin from other cryptocurrencies, highlighting its credibility and resistance to change, making it the real innovation in the crypto space.

Bitcoin as a Store of Value (00:37:55)

Discussion on Bitcoin's role as a store of value and its comparison to gold.

Bitcoin as an Emerging Form of Money (00:38:25)

Explanation of Bitcoin as an emerging form of money and its distinction from established money like gold.

Bitcoin's Transaction Network and the Lightning Network (00:39:37)

Explanation of Bitcoin's transaction network, scalability, and the use of the Lightning Network for smaller transactions.

Earning Income from Bitcoin (00:41:40)

Discussion on earning income from Bitcoin through related companies, dividends, and caution regarding Bitcoin lending services.

Bitcoin Exchanges and Custody (00:44:20)

The importance of custodying your own Bitcoin and the risks associated with centralized Bitcoin exchanges.

Connecting with the Guest (00:45:13)

Information on how to connect with the guest and access a helpful Bitcoin guide.

Bitcoin's Energy Use and Price Volatility (00:46:01)

Insights into Bitcoin's energy use, price volatility, and the use of stranded energy sources by miners.

Real Estate vs. Bitcoin (00:47:04)

Comparison of real estate as a wealth builder with the merits and risks of owning gold and Bitcoin.

Disclaimer and Conclusion (00:47:54)

Disclaimer about the content and a conclusion to the episode.

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More on Nick Giambruno:

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Complete episode transcript:


Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Why does Bitcoin have any value? And why is a real estate show dedicating one episode to this topic now? The benefits and criticisms of the world's largest cryptocurrency Bitcoin today on Get Rich Education. If you like the Get Rich Education podcast, you're going to love art. Don't quit your day. Dream newsletter. No, I here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free. Sign up egg get rich education com slash letter. It's real content that makes a real difference in your life, spiced with a dash of humor rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting gray to 66866. Text gray to 66866.


Corey Coates (00:01:06) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:22) - Work degree from Quito, Ecuador, where I am today, to the Mosquito Coast, Nicaragua, and across 188 nations worldwide.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:29) - You're listening. One of the United States longest running and most less than two shows on real estate investing. I'm your host, Keith Reinhold. Yes, we're a real estate show, but with 488 episodes, it's time to focus at least one of them. Finally, on Bitcoin. We'll bring it back to US real estate next week. Now, this is for a few reasons. Today, Bitcoin is largely misunderstood. It's become so big that it's hard to ignore. And there are two recent Bitcoin events two happenings with global impact that makes now the right time to cover this. Now look, I think that it's human nature that when you learn about something new for the first time and you don't understand how it works like Bitcoin, it's sort of innate to you start criticizing it or sort of discounted in your mind, chiefly because you don't understand it. Though Bitcoin's pseudonymous creator, Satoshi Nakamoto wrote the Bitcoin paper in 2008 and the first Bitcoin was issued in 2009. And, you know, when I first heard about it sometime after that, I probably discounted it in my mind as well.


Keith Weinhold (00:02:45) - And I think most people that don't understand Bitcoin, you know, they first think something like, oh come on, what is this. Just magic internet money. How does that work? How could that have any value. And I think is one matures when encountering the unknown. They inquire rather than criticize it. Look now and I'm getting really personal here, aren't I? I don't do drugs and I never have. But I don't criticize those that do drugs because it's a world that I just don't understand at all. Last year I was having dinner with a couple. They asked me what book I'm currently reading, and I told them that it's a 350 page book about Bitcoin, and the response was laughter, sort of dismissing it. And they said, well, how could anyone write that many pages about Bitcoin just completely discounting the whole thing? Well, for me, a turning point on Bitcoin is when I found highly intelligent people that understood it well and they were excited about it and they endorsed it. Now real estate has more intrinsic value than the dollar or gold or Bitcoin.


Keith Weinhold (00:04:02) - Because real estate is essential to your survival. You can make arguments that the dollar, gold and Bitcoin all have questionable backing. But today enough people agree that the dollar, gold and Bitcoin all have value. People are agreeing all three gold, the dollar and Bitcoin have varying levels then of anthropogenic faith. Today you and I, we live in a digital world that's comprised of 195 world nations. Well then, shouldn't money be made of something that's digital and doesn't know any national borders? Think of Bitcoin's value proposition this way you cannot move dollars across time. That's due to inflation. You can't move gold across space that's due to weight and security. But consider this Bitcoin can be officially moved across both space and time. Its supply is absolutely fixed. At 21 million, there can never be more than 21 million bitcoin either. It's traded on the blockchain, which is basically a digital ledger, but not every intelligent or influential finance person believes in Bitcoin. Of course, not every one of them. For example, it gets a little heated here from last month.


Keith Weinhold (00:05:27) - This is one of the most powerful men in the world. JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon. He's getting annoyed about CNBC asking him about Bitcoin just entirely too often. What do you make of the other firms the BlackRock's of the world.


CNBC (00:05:42) - That that obviously and Larry Fink change his view of this obviously. And maybe he changed his view because you think he genuinely believes in Bitcoin or or believed it because he thinks that there's a marketplace for it and he wants to be part of that market. But what do you think of the there's about a dozen big financial companies, fidelity included.


Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:05:59) - Number one I don't care. So just please stop talking about this. And and I don't know what he would say about blockchain versus currencies to do something versus Bitcoin that does nothing. And maybe that's not different than me. But you know, this is what makes a market. People have opinions. This is the last time I'm ever in state. In my opinion.


CNBC (00:06:18) - Gold really didn't do anything either.


Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:06:21) - Yet because it's limited in supply.


Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:06:23) - So it's and it's been used. Uh, so you think so, huh? I do think there's a good chance that when bitcoin when we get to that 20 million bitcoins 42 know that Satoshi is going to come on there laugh hysterically. Go quiet. All Bitcoin is going to be erased I think. How the hell do you know it's going to stop at 21? I've never met one person who told me they know for a fact they take that as it's not.


CNBC (00:06:44) - It hasn't happened because by the last one will be mined in 2150. And it gets harder and harder every time there's another halving. But but, Jamie, I do like looking back over.


Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:06:55) - Just do what you want. I'll do what I want. Ask for gold.


CNBC (00:06:57) - You can. The six characteristics that make gold valuable for 4000 years. They're all present in Bitcoin. That's all I'm saying. I love you and I don't want to. And I also don't I don't also don't want to be a you may enjoy Joe.


Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:07:08) - You may be right.


Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:07:09) - Yeah. Like I don't own gold either. So okay. That's what.


CNBC (00:07:11) - I mean.


CNBC (00:07:12) - Couple of quick final question.


Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:07:12) - I like to own things that pay me incomes, but it doesn't cost money to carry anyway. And it costs money to carry Bitcoin to. By the way.


Keith Weinhold (00:07:19) - Uh, that was Jamie Diamond. Now governments and banksters like Jamie Diamond, they often dislike bitcoin because it cuts out the use of their chief product, the dollar. So governments are especially hesitant to want to promote bitcoin, a lot of them in the world. Anyway, I've got a conversation with a bitcoin expert coming up. We're going to talk about its value proposition and then the criticisms. Yes, I'm in Quito today. I was last year in Ecuador two years ago, this Colorado sized nation of 18 million people. I plan to attempt climbing to the summit of a 20,000 foot mountain later in the week. As for today, let's continue with why should Bitcoin have any value? Today's guest is the founder of the Financial Underground, and he is the editor in chief of that publication.


Keith Weinhold (00:08:18) - He's a renowned international investor, and he specializes in identifying big picture geopolitical and economic trends ahead of the crowd. And you've seen him featured seemingly in everything from Forbes to the Ron Paul Liberty Report. He was a speaker at the well-known New Orleans Investment Conference as well. Hey, it's great to welcome on to gray, Nick. Jim Bruno.


Nick Giambruno (00:08:41) - Hey, Keith, great to be with you.


Keith Weinhold (00:08:43) - I think a lot of our listeners are real estate investors are going to be wondering now, why are you talking about Bitcoin on a real estate show? Actually, I think there are a few more commonalities here than what a lot of people think. What a real estate in Bitcoin have in common. They're both scarce, neither can be easily deluded, and they both take real world resources to produce more of. You could apply those same three attributes to gold. So real estate gold and bitcoin they have this scarcity. And really I think that's a wise investing theme. Go ahead and invest in what's scarce. Limit what's abundant and take zero cost to produce like dollars.


Keith Weinhold (00:09:21) - So really that's the commonality between real estate in Bitcoin. But on a real estate show, I think we have a lot of listeners that just don't have an overall common understanding. Nick, of just what is bitcoin and why does it have any value in the first place?


Nick Giambruno (00:09:37) - Well, that is a some very good observations and a very profound question. What is Bitcoin. Well, Bitcoin is a relatively new asset. However it has been decades in the making. People don't understand that Bitcoin didn't just fall out of the sky, or is some kind of accident in some mad sciences garage. This is something that has been in the the works basically since the late 70s, and it came out of the Cypherpunk movement. Now, you may have heard of these people. You may have not. The Cypherpunks are basically I find them as the good guys. They are involved in creating technologies that empower the individual and disempower the state. They are behind some of the most prominent freedom oriented technologies that you and I may take for granted, including encryption.


Nick Giambruno (00:10:27) - And that's another story in and of itself. Let me just briefly get into that, because that's what puts the crypto cryptography in cryptocurrency. Cryptography is a very important field. It's basically the method of encoding information so that only the recipient can see it. And it's very important to understand that while we take for granted the average person has access to unbreakable cryptography today, that was not always the case. Cryptography has been around since the time of the ancient Greeks, and maybe even before, but it's always been a government monopoly until very recently in terms of historical standards, when cryptography was made available to the average person. That is a very profound thing, because now the average person can secure their information and secure their online life in a way that nobody can break. The US government can't break it. Chinese government can't break it, nobody can break it. And that is very important. And that laid the foundation for Bitcoin. So what is bitcoin. It's just a summit. But it is a superior alternative to central banking.


Nick Giambruno (00:11:27) - And that is a very revolutionary thing. It basically does the job of what a central bank does but much much, much better and removes all of the corruption, all of the nastiness that goes along with central banking. So what we have here is a genuine, workable alternative to central banking, and we can get into the details of that. But if you want to look at it, what it is, that's what it is. And at the same time, it's a form of money that is not just resistant to debasement, it's totally resistant to debasement. You're talking about gold and real estate. Well, gold. What made gold money over thousands of years? Yes, it is scarce. However, I always like to use this example. There's a concept that's related to scarcity, but it's not that it was scarce. And the reason is, is think about platinum and palladium. There's actually scarcer than gold, like there are fewer ounces of platinum and palladium in the world than there are gold ounces. So why don't people use platinum and palladium as money? It's a very, very important point.


Nick Giambruno (00:12:26) - The reason is, is because the platinum and palladium supply is not resistant to debasement. So it's scarcer, but it's not resistant to debasement. What does that mean? It means the annual supply growth of platinum and palladium are basically equal to the stockpiles. So depending on what this year or next year's annual production of platinum or palladium are going to be, it can wildly swing the market. That is not true of gold. Gold is only about 1.5% growth per year. And that's very, very consistent. What does that mean? That is a very important concept. So the gold supply only grows at about 1.5% per year.


Keith Weinhold (00:13:02) - And this is basically an inflation rate.


Nick Giambruno (00:13:04) - Yes it is its inflation rate. But it's very small and nobody can really change that. Think about it. There's a. It's not as if people don't want to increase the gold supply. They would love to. The way that the gold is distributed in the world, and the cost it takes to mining it puts a really hard limit on what you can produce each year.


Nick Giambruno (00:13:22) - So that's what makes it a good store of value. And if something is not a good store of value, it's not going to be a good money. These are some very, very fundamental concepts I'm talking about because they also apply to Bitcoin.


Keith Weinhold (00:13:35) - Then when someone asked me what Bitcoin is to give it a really short definition, I call Bitcoin a global digital currency that's decentralized. And you brought up the decentralization. That's really important. That's where I can make a peer to peer payment without having to go through an intermediary where I can send my Bitcoin directly over to Nick. There was no bank involved in that transaction, for example, the decentralization of Bitcoin. But we talk more about why Bitcoin has value. I believe you began touching on it there, Nick. Bitcoin has this hardness, which is a strange term to people because Bitcoin is digital. So can you tell us more about Bitcoin's value that comes through its hardness.


Nick Giambruno (00:14:21) - Let me just touch on a quick point you made also. So simply put, the value proposition of Bitcoin is that it allows anybody, anywhere in the world to send and receive value without depending on any third party.


Nick Giambruno (00:14:32) - At the same time. It's a form of money that is 100% resistant to debasement. That's its value proposition. That's a very profound thing. So going to the hardness. Yes, hardness is a concept that a lot of people get confused. Look, I love gold, I own gold, I recommend gold chain from the gold community. And I know the gold community. So I think a lot of people in the gold community get confused around this hardness now. They think it's hard, like physically hard, like abrasive metal. That's not what art means. Hard. And in terms of a hard asset, what it means is hard to produce. That's what it means. Yeah, that's what a hard asset is. It's hard to produce. And what is the opposite of that? Something that's easy to produce. Nobody would want to store their value, store their savings, store their economic energy into something that somebody else can make with no effort, almost like, you know, oh, let's put our life savings in arcade tokens or frequent flyer miles.


Nick Giambruno (00:15:26) - It's ridiculous when you think of it in that way. But that is, in my humble opinion, the most important attribute of money is that it's hard to produce all the other attributes of money. Quite frankly, are meaningless if the money is not hard to produce. Because if it's not hard to produce, none of the other stuff matters. And that's the most crucial attribute of money.


Keith Weinhold (00:15:45) - Yes, reinforcing why we have that investing theme of invest in something that's scarce and difficult to produce and takes real world resources to produce, much like real estate does. Much like gold with all the mining and assaying and much like Bitcoin, because to produce new Bitcoin, it takes electricity, it takes hardware and it takes software, some real world resources in order to produce Bitcoin. We talk about the production rate or the inflation rate in just a couple months. Here we're coming up on something really interesting, which is really one reason why I have you on the show talking about Bitcoin now. And that is the having event, the halving being that rate of new Bitcoin issuance is cut in half every four years.


Keith Weinhold (00:16:28) - So tell us more about that and bring the stock to flow ratio into the conversation here. We're at a cusp.


Nick Giambruno (00:16:34) - Of a very important moment in monetary history. Because you can quantify the hardness of an asset. It is quantifiable. It is basically the inverse of the supply growth. And there's another way of saying that, as you mentioned, the stock to flow ratio basically. In short, you got the stockpiles. That's what's available. And then you have the flow which is like the new supply. So the higher the stock to flow, the harder the asset is and the more resistant to debasement it is. And same thing when you take the the supply growth, you want a smaller supply growth. It's just the inverse of the stock to flow. So gold has always been mankind's artist money for thousands of years and gold's stock to blow ratios about I think it's around 60 which means it takes about 60 years of current production to equal current supplies. If you look at silver, it's much less than gold.


Nick Giambruno (00:17:25) - And every other commodity is closer to one, which means that every year the new production basically equals the existing stockpiles. And that's not a very good attribute for something that you want to have as a store of value. Now, what is going to happen in this having that's coming up in around April of this year? You can quantify the stock that flow. I just told you how to quantify it. So right now Bitcoin and gold have about equal stock to flow ratios in about equal hardness. However a key feature of the Bitcoin protocol is that every four years the new Bitcoin supply issuance gets cut in half until around the year 2140, when it is just goes to zero. So Bitcoin is not only going to exceed gold's hardness in a few months, it's going to double it. Now that is a very interesting moment in monetary history because mankind has not had a harder money than gold I don't think. Ever. So this is all going to be very important and it's coming very soon in April. Late April I think is when it's going to happen.


Nick Giambruno (00:18:28) - So a very important moment in monetary history.


Keith Weinhold (00:18:31) - There is real profundity there with the stock to flow ratio of Bitcoin exceeding that of gold with the upcoming having. And if you, the listener still hung up on the stock to flow ratio, we're talking about the ratio of the existing stock, how much of this stuff already exists, whether it's real estate or gold or Bitcoin divided by the rate of new issuance. So the higher the stock to flow ratio, and as it has the greater hardness it has. And currently 900 new bitcoins per day are being produced. And the having means just what it sounds like in April that will drop to 450 new bitcoins being mined into existence each day. So really you can think of Bitcoin as being disinflationary. It will continue to inflate until the year 2140. Like Nick described. That's when new bitcoin will cease to be mined. And until that point, the new amount the flow continues to get halved. Every four years, there will only ever be 21 million Bitcoin that exist, and 19.6 million of those have already been mined.


Keith Weinhold (00:19:36) - So you can get an idea of the hardness and how this helps supply the value of Bitcoin.


Nick Giambruno (00:19:42) - Well, absolutely. And it's he talks about that. I think it's something like 93% of the time, supply has already been mined, and the remaining 7% are going to come online over the next 120 years or so. You might want to get some before other people figure this out. There is definitely not enough Bitcoin for every millionaire to have one bitcoin, it's far less. I think there's something maybe 50 million millionaires in the world, probably more. They can't all have a bitcoin. It's a very tight supply and we have a situation here too that is related. Because Bitcoin is the only asset, the only commodity were higher prices cannot induce more supply. If gold went to 10,000, you can be sure there are going to be more gold miners getting into the business, more economic deposits being found and and exploited and more supply eventually coming on to the market. Great point. And the same is true for every commodity.


Nick Giambruno (00:20:38) - Gold is just the most resistant to that process. However, Bitcoin, no matter how high the price goes, it cannot induce the production of more Bitcoin. That's a very unique scarcity attribute that I don't think people really appreciate very much. It's certainly there.


Keith Weinhold (00:20:53) - So this upcoming halving event is one reason why I'm having Nick on the show now to do our first ever Bitcoin episode in almost 500 episodes. And the other reason is the nation see of the SEC approving a new spot to Bitcoin ETF. And all that basically means is it helps give everyday investors really easy access to Bitcoin without having to set up a crypto wallet and bam, hey, your mom can become a crypto bro now.


Nick Giambruno (00:21:22) - It is certainly a milestone in acceptance. I think it signifies that Bitcoin is no longer a fringe. It's here to stay. It took over ten years for the SEC to approve one of these things. I think the Winklevoss twins applied over ten years ago for the first Bitcoin ETF, so they reluctantly did it. I don't think they want it to do it.


Nick Giambruno (00:21:43) - I think they lost a couple of key court cases that kind of forced their hand, but they did approve it. I frankly don't recommend the ETFs. It's not really Bitcoin because what you have is a Bitcoin IOU, several Bitcoin IOUs. So let's say you buy the Blackrock Bitcoin ETF. Will you have an IOU from your broker for the Blackrock ETF share. And the broker has an IOU from Blackrock. And then Blackrock has an IOU from Coinbase which actually holds the Bitcoin. So I always tell people look it's a spectrum. If you want to take that trade off and you're taking a trade off for convenience over a security and sovereignty, if you want to take that trade off, that's go right ahead. But be have your eyes wide open and be conscious of the trade off that you're making. I always prefer to, uh, tell people Bitcoin is unique. This is a bearer asset. People forget about bearer assets. Bearer assets are a very good thing. They give the people who hold them ownership over them.


Nick Giambruno (00:22:42) - I think people who are interested in sovereignty. One thing too that's very important is that even if the Bitcoin price stays flat forever, it doesn't go up at all. It still offers people tremendous value as what we were talking about before, even if it stays flat and doesn't go up ever again, it's still offers anybody, anywhere in the world the ability to send and receive value from anybody else, anywhere in the world, and to hold money that's resistant to debasement, that's hugely valuable, even if the price doesn't go up. So and you can only get those benefits if you hold Bitcoin properly in your own bitcoin wallet, where you control the keys and only you control the keys, because that's who has ownership to this. Bitcoin is by who controls those private keys. You can just kind of think of that like the password dear Bitcoin. So that's what you want to do. If you can learn how to drive a car you can learn how to self-custody Bitcoin.


Keith Weinhold (00:23:33) - I love what you did there, Nick, because what you helped us do is you helped us transition from talking about Bitcoin as an investment asset to using bitcoin as a currency, if you wish to use it to transfer value.


Keith Weinhold (00:23:47) - Really, Nick, I think a lot of people in the United States, one reason that they're not that interested in Bitcoin is because our currency, our United States dollar, it sure has problems. It sure recently went through a big wave of inflation, but our currency just is not as bad as some of these worthless pieces of paper have been in the Argentine currency or in Turkey or in Iran or Haiti. So maybe Americans don't have enough of a reason to want to go ahead and get a currency that holds its value. So what are your thoughts with what people in other nations are doing, including El Salvador, with immediate legal tender versus the United States, where we have this dollar that's being debased but just not quite at the rate of most other world nations.


Nick Giambruno (00:24:30) - That's a good point. I see this in my travels around the world. It may seem like an advantage for the Americans, but I think it's a disadvantage because they're going to be catch on to this last because they're going to have, oh, we've got the dollar.


Nick Giambruno (00:24:43) - The dollar's great. So why do I need to look at other alternatives. And and they're going to be the last people. So you're going to have I think what you could see over this the next few years, and certainly over the longer term, is that countries like El Salvador, the countries that are experiencing the highest rates of inflation now and are thus more motivated to look at a superior form of money like Bitcoin or gold, but a lot of them are going to Bitcoin. These are going to be the countries that might fare better over the long term, because they're going to be relatively early adopters in this superior monetary technology. Nobody takes a horse and buggy from New York to California anymore. No, you don't need to because you have airplanes, you have cars, superior technologies for transportation. And likewise, we now have a superior technology for money, which is to say storing and exchanging value. That's all money is. People think it's all confusing. You need a PhD and there's all these charts and confusing jargon.


Nick Giambruno (00:25:38) - Money is not confusing. It's actually intuitive and anybody in the world can understand it. It's just something that stores and exchanges value. It's really quite simple. So now we have a superior technology for storing and exchanging value. And I think people who adopt it first are going to reap the most benefits. There are a lot of Americans who have adopted it, but they have been spoiled by the fact that the dollar has been the world's reserve currency. Now, I think that's going away. That's a whole other story. I think that's the two big reasons why, you know, you shouldn't just depend on the dollar one. We can talk. This is a whole new discussion about the dollar as the world reserve currency. I think it's going away. But now despite that we also have a superior alternative with Bitcoin. So yeah, I think the people who are going to adopt this technology sooner are going to reap the most benefits.


Keith Weinhold (00:26:24) - Well, Nick, in your opinion, is Bitcoin's takeover inevitable and how does that look?


Nick Giambruno (00:26:30) - I don't think anything's inevitable.


Nick Giambruno (00:26:32) - I think it's a good that I mean, if I thought it was inevitable, I would sell everything and buy it. I have a more diversified portfolio, but I have a strong conviction in it, very strong conviction in it. But nothing is certain. Nothing's 100%. So I never tell people, you know, and I'm not giving anybody any investment advice. I'm not a registered investment advisor or anything like that. But in any case, even if I was, I wouldn't tell anybody to go all in on anything. And that's certainly not how I manage my risk. However, I do have a very high conviction in it, and I think as it stands now, it has an excellent chance at gaining huge market share in the market for money. And people don't think of money as a market, like a real estate market or a technology market, or the market for any industry. But money is a market. It's probably the biggest market. And I think Bitcoin is you need to put it into perspective, the market cap of all the gold in the entire world is about $13.7 trillion.


Nick Giambruno (00:27:27) - The market cap for all Bitcoin in the world, last I checked, is around $850 billion. So we're less than 10% of gold's market cap. It has. And that's not even including all the fiat currencies. All the fiat currencies have a much larger market cap than even gold. So Bitcoin is just a blip on people's radars. So I think it has a lot of upside from here.


Keith Weinhold (00:27:46) - One important question an investor can ask themselves once they learn more about Bitcoin is, can I really afford to have absolutely none? You're listening to get reciprocation. We're talking with Nick Bruno of the Financial Underground Warren. We come back when now we've talked about the upside of Bitcoin. Let's talk about a lot of the criticisms you're listening to get rejection I'm your host Keith Weiner. Role. Under this a specific expert with income property, you need Ridge Lending Group and MLS for 256. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four Plex's.


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Keith Weinhold (00:29:52) - This is Richard Duncan, publisher of Macro Watch. Listen to get Rich education with Keith Winchell. And don't quit your day dream. You're listening to SOS created more financial freedom for busy people just like you than nearly any show in the world. This is jet versus cash, and I'm your host, Keith Whitehall. We're talking with the Financial Underground's Nick Bruno. We're talking about Bitcoin in a dedicated episode for the first time ever here in the history of the show. And when we had a chance to talk to Nick Bruno, you can see why we wanted to do this. But, Nick, a lot of people in the United States are concerned that the US government might do something similar to what China did and just go ahead and shut down Bitcoin and shut down cryptocurrency because Bitcoin, it basically competes with the US government's product, the dollar. So what are your thoughts when people say, oh I don't know about that. The government can just shut Bitcoin down.


Nick Giambruno (00:30:53) - I'm glad you mentioned China because the communist governor of China is a very powerful governments.


Nick Giambruno (00:30:58) - It's one of the most powerful and maybe arguably the most powerful government in the world. And they've tried many times to ban Bitcoin. You know how it turned out. It was a total failure because Bitcoin is basically code in its mathematics. So it's not the easiest thing to ban even if they wanted to ban it. You're trying to ban mathematics because that's all Bitcoin is. And further many Bitcoin wallets and it all works on cryptography. As and as I said, cryptography is just advanced mathematics. Many Bitcoin wallets have a way to back up your funds a 12 word phrase. So if you can memorize well words, which represents your wallet, you can potentially store billions of dollars just in your head. Now this is how are you going to ban that? You can't ban that. It's completely impractical. I always tell people, you know, look at how governments have tried to ban cannabis. Everybody has been able to buy cannabis in any city they wanted to. And then also other countries have tried to ban US dollars.


Nick Giambruno (00:31:57) - Argentina tries to ban U.S. dollars, Venezuela tries to ban U.S. dollars. You know what it does? It creates nothing. But an underground market doesn't extinguish people's desire to have dollars. And I think that's what we have here. I think economic incentives are more powerful than governments. And aside from that, I don't think that's going to happen because what they approve all these ETFs, that they were just going to turn around and ban it? I don't think so. Further, you have lots of court cases. There is established federal court cases that have ruled that computer code, which Bitcoin is just computer code, is equivalent to free speech protected under the First amendment of the US Constitution. Oh yes, I understand the Constitution is not people can change it and it's malleable. But still, that complicates any government's desire to ban it. They're going to have to overturn those federal court cases. That's not going to be easy. And even if they do, how are you going to ban something that somebody can just memorize with 12 words written on a piece of paper or in their head, it's completely impractical.


Nick Giambruno (00:32:58) - And then, of course, you have the example of China, which has banned Bitcoin several times. You know what? Absolutely nothing happened. But Bitcoin business is moving out of China and Bitcoin adoption among regular Chinese people going up. They can hinder businesses and large like entities that have big presences. They can hinder that certainly. But Bitcoin is global. It'll just go where it's treated best. It's like water. It'll just move to wherever it's treated best. I always say this too. So even if like the northern hemisphere disappeared, let's say there's an all out nuclear war between Russia and the US that will basically wipe out the northern hemisphere. You know what? Bitcoin won't miss a beat in the southern hemisphere. It'll still keep going in the southern hemisphere because it is decentralized and un over tens of thousands of computers around the world. And if even one of those computers survives Bitcoin lives on. So I think this is a very, very hard I wouldn't want to be trying to ban this thing because it's not practical.


Keith Weinhold (00:33:56) - Other critics say, all right, if the government can't ban it, well, the government can just then allow it make it be legal, but they can regulate the heck out of it and they can tax it at really high rates. What are your thoughts there?


Nick Giambruno (00:34:11) - Well, the government can do whatever it wants, but I think, yes, it can do all of those things. But I think here's the main point is that Bitcoin is we talked about economic incentives. Economic incentives are more powerful than politicians. And I think that's a truism. So as more people become holders of bitcoin aware of bitcoin, I don't think restricting bitcoin or banning bitcoin or adding regulations to Bitcoin or adding taxation to it, I don't think that's going to help anybody win an election. Is that going to help anybody win an election? I don't think so. That would be extremely politically unpopular. Yeah, that could happen. It would be bad news for the people who live in that jersey. But you know what? It's not going to kill bitcoin.


Nick Giambruno (00:34:52) - It's going to just be a hindrance for the people who live under these Luddite politicians who would do such a thing. But I don't think they're going to do such a thing. They just approve the ETF. I think Bitcoin has reached escape velocity in terms of its political popularity. I don't think anybody is going to win an election by being tough on Bitcoin.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:11) - A number of congresspeople hold bitcoin, Cynthia Loomis being one of the more prominent ones. And then you and I talked about the SEC spot Bitcoin ETF approval earlier. Well, that's a bit of a de facto stamp of approval on bitcoin really in a sense. And I think another criticism Nick, in my opinion this is easy to dispel. But some people will say, well, there are tens of thousands of cryptocurrencies out there. This stuff's just junk. There's something like hump coin that a prominent rapper promotes. I mean, all this stuff is just a bunch of junk. When all these cryptocurrencies come out. And I tend to think that's very different than Bitcoin.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:50) - Just like if there's some new stock IPO with zero fundamentals that comes out, I mean that doesn't diminish blue chippers like Apple or Microsoft at all. So I think of Bitcoin as the first or one of the first cryptocurrencies with a finite supply. So these overnight fly by night new cryptos I don't think that's really a very good criticism of Bitcoin.


Nick Giambruno (00:36:12) - No, I think this is one of the most popular misconceptions is that there is this crypto asset class and that Bitcoin is just one of 20,000 cryptocurrencies. And I think this is transparently false. It's like saying, oh, you know an increase in the pyrite supply is going to, you know, dilute the gold or something right. So it's kind of ridiculous. And the reason behind this is very simple. Bitcoin is the only one that nobody controls. Nobody can change bitcoin. It's the only one that is like that from Ethereum which is number two on down. They can be changed. A group of people can get together and change it. And in fact, Ethereum's monetary policy has been changed more often than the Federal Reserve's monetary policy.


Nick Giambruno (00:36:54) - It's just instead of the FOMC getting together and deciding what we should do with the money supply, it's a group of Ethereum developers and insiders that get together and change it. And the same thing is true of every other cryptocurrency. So that's the very defining feature of Bitcoin is that nobody can change it. That's what makes it interesting. If somebody could change Bitcoin, it wouldn't be interesting. And we don't need to get into the weeds of that. But needless to say, Bitcoin is the only one where the supply has credibility. We all know the bitcoin supply is 21 million. Nobody can do anything to change that. What is the Bitcoin supply going to be in five years? I could tell you with precision what it will be in five years. I can tell you with precision what it'll be in ten years. And you tell me what the Ethereum supply is going to be in five years. Can you tell me what the supply is going to be in ten years? You tell me what any cryptocurrency aside from Bitcoin supply is going to be in five years.


Nick Giambruno (00:37:41) - No you can't because it depends on how the developers are going to change it. So it's quite ridiculous to lump these two things together. They're entirely separate. Crypto is a cesspool. Quite frankly. Bitcoin is the real innovation.


Keith Weinhold (00:37:55) - And immutable protocol as they call it. Nick, I think one criticism is to pull back. We all know that money is three things. It's a store of value. It's a medium of exchange and it's a unit of account. And a lot of people say, I don't think Bitcoin can be a legitimate currency because all people do is store it. So it might meet the store of value criterion of those three. But I don't know about its legitimacy as a currency. Does that matter? I mean, people kind of use gold as a store of value, but not a currency. What are your thoughts?


Nick Giambruno (00:38:25) - Yes, it does matter. And it's a good question. The answer is is Bitcoin is not an established money. Take gold for example. Gold has been around for thousands of years.


Nick Giambruno (00:38:34) - It is an established form of money. Bitcoin is an emerging form of money. It's a very big distinction. So I personally think the way this will go and you know people disagree. But I think just logically, if you look at it, yes, story of value comes first. Why. Because once people store their value in Bitcoin, the monetary network of people who will be willing to exchange that bitcoin for something else grows and you can't have one before the other in terms of like nobody's going to exchange bitcoin if they're not already storing bitcoin. So the more people that store bitcoin have it available to exchange it for other people, it's like a network effect, any kind of network effect. That's a monetary network effect. And that's time to build further Bitcoin related misunderstanding is you kind of view Bitcoin in a different lens than just paying for like a cup of coffee, because that's really not what it's made for. The Bitcoin network has a hard limit on the number of transactions that I can process every day in order to keep it decentralized, because if it processed everybody's coffee transaction, you would need huge data centers to run the Bitcoin software.


Nick Giambruno (00:39:37) - The matter is, is that the Bitcoin software needs to be decentralized. So right now, anybody who has an average laptop, an average Raspberry Pi can run Bitcoin. That is very important for its decentralization. And if you were putting everybody's retail transaction on the Bitcoin blockchain would be impossible. You need large data centers. Now does that mean Bitcoin can't scale to become a medium of exchange? Absolutely not. You have to just think of bitcoin. What is a Bitcoin transaction represents. It represents final international settlement and clearance. So it's more akin to an international wire transfer. You wouldn't pay for a cup of coffee with from a Swiss bank account to Starbucks in New York. That's basically what you're talking about. What you do is you build layers. There are different layers that are built on top of that bedrock, which is the Bitcoin network that is immutable, unchangeable, and then you build transaction networks on top of that. So what we have with Bitcoin, the most prominent one right now is called the Lightning Network, which is another network that's built on top of Bitcoin that is really more suitable for smaller day to day coffee transactions.


Nick Giambruno (00:40:43) - You can actually send about 1/32 of a penny over lightning. So you can do all sorts of micro-transactions. Very interesting. So that's akin to, you know, like a credit card or a credit card is kind of like a layer two network that's built on top of central banks, which do international clearing and settling, and credit cards are built on top of that. And you can think of the same kind of solutions that are going to be built on Bitcoin. You're going to have different layers for different applications. And in terms of these medium of exchange and transaction network in Bitcoin it's the Lightning Network. And it's very exciting to use.


Keith Weinhold (00:41:19) - Yeah the Lightning Network it's been around for a while. It's been getting more adoption to help promote payments through Bitcoin. Being a real estate investing show here, oftentimes our listeners are interested in buying a property that will produce income from a tenant that's in that property. Can Bitcoin produce income?


Nick Giambruno (00:41:40) - Bitcoin itself cannot produce income because it's just simply money. It's simply an asset in the same sense that gold doesn't produce income.


Nick Giambruno (00:41:47) - If you want to earn income from Bitcoin, invest in Bitcoin related companies and Bitcoin related businesses that pay dividends. There are some and there is going to be many more. There are Bitcoin mining companies. These are companies I specialize in covering. In my financial research. They're relatively new. They don't pay dividends yet, but there are several that are looking to establish dividends. You can also lend your bitcoin I mean that's not bitcoin giving you a yield. That's you earning a yield from lending your bitcoin. I would caution you because there's been a lot of these kinds of bitcoin lending services that have gone bankrupt. BlockFi Celsius I'd be. And so whenever I hear about Bitcoin yields I caution people to be not just vigilant, be double vigilant of how you would normally be because there's been so many scams in this area and bad companies that have gone bankrupt. Taking advantage of people looking to earn a yield on their bitcoin. It's really a nascent industry. And you know what? Look at Bitcoin's compounded annual growth rate over any period of time for years.


Nick Giambruno (00:42:50) - You don't need a yield. It's going up if the trends continue. And I always tell people if you're going to invest in Bitcoin, have at least a four year time horizon, because that's a long time horizon. But the reason is, is because that gives you through one halving cycle, these having cycles go every four years. It's almost impossible. There's maybe a couple of instances, a couple of days where the bitcoin price wasn't higher than it was four years ago. So I always tell people have a four year time horizon when you're dealing with Bitcoin. And when you look at the returns, that could be possible. And I think the pastor. Returns. Past performance doesn't guarantee anything in the future, but I think that being said, we can expect this cycle to be similar to the other cycles. When you see that kind of potential, it should really make you not interested in these yield products.


Keith Weinhold (00:43:39) - You mentioned a couple of bankrupt crypto exchanges there, BlockFi and Celsius. I got caught up in some of that.


Keith Weinhold (00:43:48) - Now I keep all of mine on a hard wallet because really what these exchanges do is they're centralize something that's supposed to be decentralized like Bitcoin, and it gives Bitcoin a really bad name. Nick, I had some people reach out to me when FTX imploded and people said, this proves that Bitcoin is a scam. And I had to gently explain to people, whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Just because Wells Fargo or Chase fails. We didn't say the dollar failed. It wasn't a failure in Bitcoin. It was a failure in these exchanges.


Nick Giambruno (00:44:20) - Oh, yes. This has been going on for a long time. And before FTX, there's Mt. Gox. There's a lot of these things. So I think the underlying lesson here in all of these examples is that don't trust third parties. And with Bitcoin you don't need to trust their authorities because if you can learn to custody your own Bitcoin, you are totally responsible, totally in control of your destiny. You don't have to worry about one of these bitcoin companies going bankrupt because you hold it and only you hold it.


Nick Giambruno (00:44:48) - And I think that's what makes it special.


Keith Weinhold (00:44:51) - This has been a great chat and I think a really good Bitcoin 101 for a person that still doesn't understand very much about it. And you help people understand Bitcoin, you do an awful lot of other things, including informing people about global trends and macroeconomics. So if someone wants to connect with you and learn more from you, what's the best way for them to do that?


Nick Giambruno (00:45:13) - The best place is Financial Underground Comm. I have a really helpful Bitcoin guide that shows people how to use it in the most sovereign and the most private ways possible, and I keep that guide up to date with the current best practices, because these things change very frequently. Like what is the best wallet, what is the best hardware wallet, and so forth. So I keep this guide alive with the best current practices. I think that would be a big help for people. Could definitely save them many, many hours of time by simply just identifying today's best practices. So I think that would be very helpful.


Nick Giambruno (00:45:45) - You can find all that at Financial


Keith Weinhold (00:45:49) - Nick Bruno has been super informative. Thanks so much for coming on to the show.


Nick Giambruno (00:45:54) - Thank you Keith, great to be with you.


Keith Weinhold (00:46:01) - Another Bitcoin criticism is its energy use. Oh, look at all the electricity that mining consumes. What a waste. But the more you learn, you find that Bitcoin miners, they often use stranded energy sources that might not get used otherwise. In fact, miners have an economic incentive to use stranded and low cost energy. Volatility in Bitcoin's price has been a real problem if you want to use it as a currency. The price for one Bitcoin peaked at almost $70,000 in late 2021, and just a year later it was under 16 K, and now the price has swelled up a lot again from that recent low. In any case, if you choose to own Bitcoin or any other crypto, please store it on a cold wallet for security. It's a small device. It's about three times the size of a thumb drive. It looks like a thumb drive, and there is a learning curve that you have to meet in order to use one.


Keith Weinhold (00:47:04) - I don't own much gold or bitcoin, just a little. They both have their merits and risks like we've discussed. I'm a real estate guy. Even most gold and bitcoin proponents that I've talked with seem to agree with me that real estate is the proven wealth builder. I'm not sure if we'll ever devote another episode to Bitcoin here. I hope that today's episode at least equipped you to ask better questions, in case you want to know more about it. Today's episode had a more international than usual feel. Bitcoin has no boundaries. I'm in Ecuador and our guest Nick joined us from Argentina today. I'll be back in the US next week when I have some really important real estate trends to tell you about. Until then, I'm Keith Reinhold. Don't quit your daydream.


Speaker 7 (00:47:54) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss.


Speaker 7 (00:48:09) - The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.


Keith Weinhold (00:48:22) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich

Direct download: GREepisode488_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

Immigrants keep pouring into the US’ southern border. 

How are we going to house them? We’re already millions of housing units undersupplied.

Some migrants get free housing. Yet there are homeless veterans.

Here’s what to expect from more immigration: more rental housing demand, more multigenerational dwellings, more homelessness, higher labor supply.

Get a simple explanation about title insurance.

Our in-house Investment Coach, Naresh, joins us with a real estate market update. 

Two popular investment markets are Memphis BRRRRs and Florida new-builds.

He provides free coaching at


The immigrant crisis worsens (00:00:01)

Discussion on the increasing number of immigrants and the housing shortage crisis in the United States.

Housing supply shortage (00:02:44)

Analysis of the shortage in housing supply, estimated to be around 4 million units, and the decline in available housing units.

Impact of immigration on housing demand (00:05:07)

Forecasted impacts of immigration on housing demand and the expected population growth due to immigration.

Challenges and solutions for housing immigrants (00:09:03)

Discussion on the challenges of housing immigrants and potential solutions, including easing construction restrictions and promoting the building of entry-level housing.

Title insurance explained (00:17:29)

Explanation of title insurance, its types, and its significance in real estate transactions.

Update on property manager's situation (00:15:08)

An update on the property manager's situation involving stolen rent payments and the tenant's agreement to compensate for the loss.

Mortgage rates and inflation (00:21:52)

Discussion on the current mortgage rates and their correlation with inflation, as well as predictions for future rate movements.

Mortgage Rates and Fed's Strategy (00:22:54)

Discussion on the impact of the Fed's decision to hold rates and its potential effect on mortgage rates.

Incentives and Real Estate Markets (00:25:08)

Explanation of incentives offered in Memphis and Florida real estate markets, including the BR method and new build properties.

Real Estate Investment Strategies (00:29:04)

Comparison of the Memphis BR method and Florida new build as investment strategies, emphasizing the benefits of each approach.

Property Investment Insights (00:32:16)

Discussion on the impact of property ownership and the potential for life-changing outcomes through real estate investment.

Economic Uncertainty and Real Estate (00:37:07)

Anticipation of potential economic volatility and its impact on real estate investment decisions, emphasizing the stability of real estate during uncertain times.

Resources mentioned:

Show Page:

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. 

You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

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Complete episode transcript:


Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Hold. The immigrant crisis worsens. Where are we going? To house all these people. A simple explainer on what title insurance is. Then where do you find the best real estate deals in this market today on get Rich education. If you like the get Rich education podcast, you're going to love our Don't Quit Your Daydream newsletter. No, I here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free! Sign up and get rich It's real content that makes a real difference in your life, spiced with a dash of humor. Rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting gray to 66866. Text gray to 66866.


Speaker 2 (00:01:06) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:22) - Welcome to jewelry heard in 188 world nations from Lima, Ohio to Lima, Peru. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Get rich education founder, Forbes Real Estate Council member and longtime real estate investor. Our mission here. Let's provide people with good housing, help abolish the term slumlord and get paid five ways at the same time. Immigrants keep pouring into our southern border. In fact, federal agents encountered roughly 2.5 million migrants there just last year alone. Now, though, not all will become permanent residents. Understand? 2.5 million. That's the population of the city proper of Chicago or Houston. All in just one year. How are we going to house all these migrants? This crisis has only worsened in that 2.5 million migrants in a year figure is, according to US Customs and Border Protection data. Now, understand first that America has about 140 million existing housing units. That's what we're dealing with today. By every estimate out there, we already have a housing shortage. The layperson on the street knows that and estimates about its magnitude.


Keith Weinhold (00:02:44) - I mean, they're all over the map, some as high is America is already 7 million housing units undersupplied in order to house our current population. And you have other estimates as low is that we're only 1.5 million housing units. Undersupplied. So let's interpolate and kind of be conservative, or just use a figure closer to a common consensus and say that we are 4 million housing units. Undersupplied. All right. But if that's our given, here's what that means. 4 million housing units undersupplied to merely reach a balanced housing supply, we'd need to build enough homes to meet population growth, plus 400,000 on top of that. And we'd have to do that every single year for an entire decade. Just astounding. And to be clear, that's not to be oversupplied with housing. That's just to reach an equilibrium between supply and demand. Now, the supply of available housing, and this is basically what I'm going to talk about next, is the number of homes for sale at any given time, right. That began gradually descending in 2016.


Keith Weinhold (00:04:02) - And back then it was one and a half to 2 million available units. And in the spring of 2020, like I've talked about before, the housing supply just crashed to well below 1 million, and it still hasn't gotten up from its mighty fall. In fact, it's only about 700,000 units available today. All right, that is the Fred active listing count and Fred's sources there. Statistics from All right, so that's what we're dealing with. That's a dire situation. All right, well, how do housing starts? Look, are we building up out of the ground enough to maybe start getting a handle on this sometime in the next decade? I mean, is there anything that could be more encouraging than more housing starts? Well, really, there's nothing encouraging there at all. In fact, new housing construction starts have hit a ten month low. My gosh. So that's the supply side. All right. What about the housing demand side? Well America's population grew by 1.6 to 1.8 million people between 2022 and 2023.


Keith Weinhold (00:05:07) - And that number is forecast to climb during the next few years, worsening the housing shortage crisis. And with US births falling and deaths rising, it's immigration, immigration is what is going to fuel the majority of population growth for the next decade. Immigrant related growth that is going to impact local housing markets across the country. And it's expected to hit especially hard in the northeast, Florida, California, Nevada and Texas. And what's happening is outraging some people. Some cities are housing migrants in public places, even arenas, including ones that Texas Governor Greg Abbott has bused to the northeast. And, of course, New York City Mayor Eric Adams has been outspoken about how to handle the migrant crisis. Understand that there are homeless veterans out there in America, yet the state of Maine is giving migrants up to two years of free rent for new apartments. In that right there has made a lot of people. And there are a lot of other cases out there like that of migrants getting free housing. Now, just consider this John Burroughs research and consulting.


Keith Weinhold (00:06:31) - They provide a lot of good information to the real estate market, and they have for a long time credit to them. And by the way, if you'd like us to invite John Burns onto the show here or if you have any other comments or questions or concerns, feel free to write into us through get Rich education. Com slash contact. So you can send either an email or leave a voice message. Well, according to their industry respected data, some of which is compiled through the US Census Bureau back in 2021, that's when we reached an inflection point where the US population grew more through immigration than it did through natural increase in natural change. That is simply the births minus deaths, and that is continued each year since there is more US population growth through immigration than there is through natural increase. In fact, bring it up to last year, our population grew by 1.1 million through immigration and just 500,000 through natural increase, more than double more than double the increase through immigration as natural change. And John Burns makes the forecast through the year 2033.


Keith Weinhold (00:07:47) - So the next nine years, the growth through immigration will outstrip that some more and become double to triple that of natural growth overall. Every single year through 2033, we'll add 1.7 to 2 million Americans. And they all need to be housed somewhere. So the bottom line here is that immigration fueled growth already outstrips natural growth. And that should continue and only be weighted more heavily toward immigrants every single year for the next decade, probably beyond the next decade. We just don't have projections that far yet. Well, how are you going to house all these people when we're already badly undersupplied and understand I'm not making any judgments on saying who or who should not be able to enter our nation. That is for someone else to decide. And in fact, I'm the descendant of immigrants. They're my ancestors. And you may very well be too. And over the long term, immigrants can be an asset. I am simply here asking where and how are we going to house them for the next decade and what that means to you.


Keith Weinhold (00:09:03) - Tiny homes, 3D printed homes, shipping container homes none of them seem to be the answer. And of course, population forecasts. When you look out in the future like that, they're going to vary based on the percentage of successful asylum seekers in the 2024 presidential election winner, and more. So, the figures that I shared with you, they are only the average case. In any case, the crisis is poised to worsen because now you've seen that there is a terrible mismatch between population growth and housing starts. How are you going to solve this? The government needs to ease construction restrictions and promote the building of entry level housing. More up zoning should be allowed. Do you know what up zoning is? It means just what it sounds like increasing the housing density, often by building taller buildings. So up zoning is taller building heights. All right. Well let's look at really.


Speaker 3 (00:10:02) - Four.


Keith Weinhold (00:10:03) - Big impacts that this immigration wave is having on America's already scarce supply of housing. New immigrants typically rent property. They don't buy property.


Keith Weinhold (00:10:16) - So that's higher rental housing demand. Secondly, expect more multigenerational and family oriented dwellings. That's what's needed with additional bedrooms and affordable price points like entry level single family rentals. If you want to own rental property, that right there is the spot for durable demand. And thirdly, I'm sorry, another impact is expect to see more homeless people in your community like I've touched on before. In fact, homelessness is already up 12% year over year. That's partly due to inflation, and that is already the biggest jump. Since these point in time surveys have been used. The biggest ever jump in homelessness are ready. Those stats only go back to 2007. That's when they begin measuring it. And that's according to HUD and federal officials. And then the fourth and final impact of all this immigration is that builders and manufacturers will probably see a small uptick in labor availability these next. Few years. Okay, that part could help. America could help with this labor shortage crunch. But all the other major impacts put more demand and strain on what's already a paucity of American housing supply.


Keith Weinhold (00:11:36) - And the bottom line is that there are too many people competing for too little housing, driving up prices and driving up rents this decade. I've been talking about lots of people moving north across borders. Me, I've recently moved south across borders, though for only a few weeks here. I'm joining you from here in Medellin, Colombia today, where in between doing my real estate research here, I'll be trekking in the Colombian Andes this week and the Ecuadorian Andes next week, when I'll be based in Ecuador's national capital of Quito. And, you know, there's a real estate lesson in this itself. Really? Okay, me traveling to Colombia and Ecuador, people often label and mischaracterize areas that they haven't been to or say they hear of the drug trade in Colombia or of some of the more recent, I guess, civil unrest in Ecuador, where I'll be next week. And they think, sheesh, isn't it dangerous in those places? Oh come on, I mean, sheesh, Colombia is a nation of 52 million people and it's almost twice the size of Texas.


Keith Weinhold (00:12:44) - The question is where? Where in Colombia do you think is dangerous? Don't you expect there would be great variability there? Now you the great listener. You're smarter than the average American. So I think that you get it with last month's continued civil uprising in Ecuador, seeing that story in the news that actually reminded me to book a trip there, the opposite of staying away when they held up all the people at that TV station that was way out in Guayaquil, Ecuador. To tie in the real estate lesson here. Back to your home nation. If you do live in the US or wherever you live like I do, see our investment coach, Andrea. She moved from Georgia to the Detroit Metro a couple of years ago. I don't think you'd want to invest in real estate in Andrea's neighborhood, where she lives in Detroit, because it's too nice. The property prices are high and the numbers wouldn't work for you in an upper end neighborhood of metro Detroit. But people that haven't been to Detroit don't think about areas being too ritzy for investment.


Keith Weinhold (00:13:49) - Well, of course, some of the areas are. Some of my point is, stereotypes are hard to shake. I encourage you to get out and see the world now. I've got an interesting and really an unlikely update on my property manager that had the tenant rent payments stolen from his drop box, meaning I didn't get paid the rent. The property manager, he didn't make good on that and pay me the rent. He wanted me to take the loss from the rent payment that he failed to secure from the paper money order stolen from his overnight drop box. So the manager doesn't want to take the loss. I don't want to take the loss well, and I can hardly believe this, but apparently the tenant has agreed to make the property manager hold. The tenant would effectively pay rent twice for that month, and then the property manager will apparently finally pay me the missing rent after it flows through him. The manager. I don't know if the property manager had to convince the tenant that it's the tenant's responsibility to put the payment right into the manager's hands, or what? So the tenant, what they're going to do is pay an extra $200 a month until the $1,950 stolen rent is compensated, I guess what, eight months of stepped up rent.


Keith Weinhold (00:15:08) - And so I was just really surprised that the tenant would agree to do that. And, you know, in this saga that I've been describing to you for, I guess, the third week in a row now, you know, one Jerry listener, they asked me something like, doesn't your property manager know that you're rather influential in the real estate world? Like thinking maybe I'd get preferential treatment? Oh, to that I say, no, I don't want preferential treatment. I mean, few things are more annoying in society than people that position themselves like that. But I will tell you that I actually did meet this property manager in person before he started managing my properties, and he did wear a suit and tie in the conference room for meeting me, which I thought was interesting. Later today on the show, we've got a guest that's familiar to you. He was somewhat bearish on real estate when he was here with us back in November. That's when he talked about how activity was slow, and you might even want to sit on the sidelines of adding more property to your portfolio.


Keith Weinhold (00:16:10) - We'll see if that's changed today. Now over on YouTube, you might very much like watching me in our explained. Video series because in a video format, I can show you where the numbers come from at. Very simply, break down an investing term like net worth for one video or cash flow, or your return on amortization in another one. There's also a new video in our explained series about title insurance, and this is what you'll hear over there. The title to a house is the document that proves that the owner owns it. Without that proof, the house can't be bought or sold, and title insurance is written by title insurance companies. What a title insurance company does is research the history of the house to see if there are any complications, also known as clouds, in its ownership issues that cloud the title could be like an outstanding old mortgage that the prospective seller has on the property. A previous deed that wasn't signed or wasn't written correctly and unresolved legal debt or a levy by a creditor, like an old lien placed by a contractor who once did some work on the windows and was never paid for it.


Keith Weinhold (00:17:29) - They're all examples of clouds on a title, and make transferring the property ownership difficult or impossible. But if the title appears to be clean, no clouds, then the title insurer writes a policy promising to cover the expenses of correcting any title problems if they would happen to get discovered after the sale. Title companies may refuse to insure a clouded title to be transferred, so it's important to know about any potential issues as soon as possible. Now there are two types of title insurance. There is lender's title insurance and owner's title insurance. First, lenders title insurance. In most areas of the country, the mortgage lender requires that the property buyer purchase a lender title insurance policy to protect the lender's security interest in the real estate. Lender's title insurance is issued in the amount of the mortgage loan and the amount of coverage decreases and finally disappears as the mortgage loan is paid off. And then secondly, owner's title insurance. It protects the homebuyers interest and is normally issued in the amount of the purchase price of the property. Coverage means that the insurer will pay all valid claims on the title as insured, and in most real estate transactions, separate title policies are purchased for the lender and the buyer, and although it can vary by location, the buyer typically purchases the policy for the lender, whereas the seller often pays for the policy for the buyer.


Keith Weinhold (00:19:12) - And that's title insurance, if you like. Simple to the point education by video like that, and you'd want to get a really good look at me for some inexplicable reason. Uh, for more, check out the new explained series. It is now on our get Rich education YouTube channel or next. I'm Keith Reinhold, you're listening to get Rich education. Render this a specific expert with income property you need. Ridge lending Group Nmls 42056. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four Plex's. Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge personally. They'll even customize a plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Ridge lending You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%.


Keith Weinhold (00:20:35) - Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains and your W-2 jobs income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, six eight, six, six.


Speaker 4 (00:21:21) - Anybody? It's Robert Elms with a Real Estate Guys radio program. So glad you found Keith White old and get rich education. Don't quit your day dream.


Keith Weinhold (00:21:40) - Hey. Well, I'd like to welcome in someone that you might have met by now. That is one of our terrific investment coaches. Narration. The race. Hey, welcome back onto the show.


Naresh Vissa (00:21:49) - Keith. It's a pleasure to be back on race.


Keith Weinhold (00:21:52) - I know you've got mortgage rates on your mind. It's been such an interesting topic lately, since they peaked at about 8% back in October of 2023, and almost everyone this year anticipates that now that embedded inflation is lower, that rates of all types are going to fall, rates in inflation are typically correlated. And why don't you talk to us with your thoughts about where mortgage rates are currently and where they go from here?


Naresh Vissa (00:22:19) - Like you said, mortgage rates peaked around October. The fed did their last rate hike in July 2023, so that's why the lagging effect caused rates to rise a little. And then they've been slowly creeping down since October. And what does that mean? Or where do we go from here in this new year 2024? I've been pretty spot on with what the Fed's going to do. I think they made some mistakes. I think they should have done 2 or 3 more 25 basis point hikes in 2023 because we're seeing inflation creep back up.


Naresh Vissa (00:22:54) - And that's a huge problem for the fed because their target is 2%. But that's a completely different topic. We get Monday morning quarterback the fed all we want. The fed has essentially come out and said that their rate hiking campaign is over. They've hiked enough and it's a take it or leave it. They're just going to hold and hold and hold until inflation reaches that 2% target. So what does that mean for mortgage rates? If we know that the fed isn't going to raise rates anymore, that means we are. We've already seen it. Mortgage rates have slowly creeped down. And there is a legitimate chance that the inflation rate that the CPI hits 2% by this summer, there is a chance of that. Right now we're at 3.3 or 3.4%, but there is a good chance that by the end of this summer, let's say August, we hit that 2% target, which means the fed will immediately start cutting rates after that whenever the next meeting is, I think September 2024, they'll start cutting rates, which means that's going to have an effect on mortgage rates.


Naresh Vissa (00:24:00) - We can see mortgage rates plummet even more later this year going into 2025. Now, this is just a prediction. There's a chance that inflation could go up if there is a middle East crisis or World War three or whatever you want to call it, there's a chance that inflation spikes back up and the fed just they could hold rates where they are for two years. I don't have a crystal ball in front of me. There was a black swan event that happened in 2020. Obviously, there could be a black swan event that happens in 2024. We won't know. But what we do know is the fed is done hiking rates and they're going to hold as long as possible until we get to that 2% inflation target. What does that mean for real estate? If mortgage rates are going back down, you're getting a better deal today than you were in October 2023 or November 2023. So it's almost 100 basis points lower from the peak that we saw in October. So interest rates have gone down. They've somewhat normalized to a level that digestible for investors, still not quite digestible for the average homeowner.


Naresh Vissa (00:25:08) - And the best part about this, Keith, is that the providers who we work with are still offering amazing incentives, the same amazing incentives, if not better, with the lower interest rates. So previously we brought up a 5.75% interest rate incentive program, one year free property management, another program that was two two for two years of free property management, 2% closing cost credit, $4,000 property management credit, all sorts of incentives. And those incentives are still in play while interest rates have gone down. So instead of 5.75% incentive that these providers are offering, they're now offering 4.5% interest rate. So that's why I think if there were no incentives, hey, you know what? We should probably wait until the fed starts cutting again. But with these incentives, this is incredible because they're going to be gone again the moment the fed starts cutting aggressively. These incentives are all gone. So you may as well get in. Now when home values have somewhat corrected and some markets are seeing precipitous declines, home value declines, real estate declines.


Naresh Vissa (00:26:20) - So right now it's still an excellent time to invest. Given this economic landscape.


Keith Weinhold (00:26:26) - Gray listeners are pretty savvy. And you the listener, you realize that changes in the fed funds rate don't have a direct change, and they don't move in lockstep with the 30 year fixed rate mortgages. The fed has really loaded up with the fed funds rate near 5%. Now they basically have a whole lot of ammo in the cartridge where they can go ahead and lower rates if the economy begins to get into trouble. One reason mortgage rates are higher than other long term rates is that US mortgages can be prepaid without any penalty. The anomaly in what's been different and what's been happening here is that typically there's a spread of about 1.75% between the ten year note, which has been 4% or so recently. And the 30 year mortgage rate is about 1.75% higher, which. She would put it at 5.75, but instead mortgage rates have been almost 7%. So a greater than usual historic spread between the ten year teno, which is more what mortgage rates are based off of and what that rate actually is, and the reason that that spread has been so high as this perceived greater credit risk or anticipated economic changes like this recession that is always just perpetually around the corner.


Keith Weinhold (00:27:44) - So we don't really know where mortgage rates are going to go. We know that they're not high. They're actually below their long term average. But of course, they just feel high because the only thing that was unusual is the rate at which they've increased. With that in mind here as we talk about mortgage rates nowadays. Why don't you tell us more about the incentives that are being offered right now?


Naresh Vissa (00:28:03) - The incentives are still being offered. The question is, Keith, I want to share two different strategies or two different markets. It's kind of a mix of strategy and market. The two most popular markets we are seeing right now are in Memphis, Tennessee, and in Florida. Still, Florida continues to be hot. Why is that? Why these two markets? Well, number one, Memphis still has a lot of rehab properties that you can purchase in the 100 to $150,000 range. Before the pandemic, it was common to see properties selling for 60 to $80,000. Those properties are a dime a dozen now, because of what we've already talked about the inflation, the home values, rising real estate going up.


Naresh Vissa (00:28:51) - Memphis still offers those options. Now we work with a provider in Memphis who specializes in the BR method, the B or R r. So it's for cause the BR.


Keith Weinhold (00:29:04) - It's not the February temperatures. BR yes.


Naresh Vissa (00:29:07) - Yeah. It's not the February temperatures. It stands for you buy rehab rent then you refinance and then you repeat it with the next property. So buy rehab rent refinance repeat. So this is a little different from your traditional real estate investing where you're just buying. It's already rehabbed. So you're buying renting it out. And then end of story here. It's a strategy that is meant to build equity. Almost immediately. You rehab it. And look we're not going to get into the details of this right now. I highly recommend that, folks, they can go to the GRE marketplace and set up a meeting with me if they want to talk some more about BR or if their experience and they know about BR, they may not know that we offer BR properties. But our investors have loved Memphis, BR.


Naresh Vissa (00:30:02) - They have loved it. They have bought more and more is one of our hottest asset classes or strategies right now. Memphis BR so highly recommend it. What are the incentives? There actually no incentives that our Memphis, BR provider is offering, because the incentive of the BR strategy is enough to get people to keep buying. They keep getting inventory, they don't run out. They find ways to make it work. Now in Florida, we work with a provider who we've featured on this show a couple of times before, and they're owned by the largest Japanese real estate developer called Sumitomo Forestry. They're one of the largest Japanese companies in the world. Warren Buffett owns a huge stake, Berkshire Hathaway in Sumitomo. So I highly recommend this Florida provider because they're able to offer properties that values that other providers can't compete with at prices that other providers can't compete with. They're offering the incentives that I told you, the 4.5% program, in some cases, you can buy down the rate all the way down to 4.25% if you want.


Naresh Vissa (00:31:10) - They have two years free property management or one year free property. It just depends on the package that you choose. They're offering closing cost credits. You can negotiate the list price. These are the two most popular partners we are currently working with, and I highly recommend if you are liking this real estate market, you're seeing lower interest rates. You're seeing that there's been a correction in home values and you want to get in right now. Contact your investment coach. If you don't have an investment coach, go to the marketplace. You can select me if you want, or you can select the other investment coach Andrea, it's up to you and we can share more information.


Keith Weinhold (00:31:52) - You're talking about two different strategies here, the Memphis BR and the Florida Newbuild. And I think of the Memphis burger is something that's lower cost. It's for an investor with a more aggressive disposition where it will take some of your involvement, even though it's still only going to be remote involvement. And then on the flip side, with the Florida new build, you're going to benefit from those low bought down rates that the builder will buy down for you.


Keith Weinhold (00:32:16) - The longer you plan to hold the property, the more the rate buy down is going to benefit you. And then also think of the Florida new build is kind of being a low noise investment.


Naresh Vissa (00:32:29) - You're absolutely correct, Keith. So I highly recommend those who are sitting on the fence. I've come on this podcast before and said, hey, Keith, you know, right now I'm not really sure where things are going. Like it's a little dead. Maybe investors should hold off.


Keith Weinhold (00:32:44) - Yeah, back in November, that was your guidance?


Naresh Vissa (00:32:46) - Yep. That was. And now I think because we've seen the lower interest rates, you can just get in at a much better deal. Everyone can be happy. I think our investors would be happy. And it's a great time to start investing in real estate again. Don't put it off. I remember when I first got into real estate, I was putting it off, putting it off, and I look back and I say, man, I should have gotten in four years earlier or five years earlier.


Keith Weinhold (00:33:13) - How many properties do you think it took for you to buy until it changed your life? For me, it was probably when I bought my second fourplex and I had eight units. But I think if you're buying single family homes, it takes probably fewer units than that to really start changing your life.


Naresh Vissa (00:33:30) - Yeah, one units aren't going to change your life. Two units aren't going to change your life. In my case, it's just a personal story. I bought one the first year, another one the second year, and then my third year I scaled from 2 to 7. That was the life changing experience right there. And the last two properties I bought were new construction. So number seven and number eight were new constructions. And that also changed my strategy too, because I said, hey, new construction is just so much better than these older rehab properties, just less headache. We've talked about this before on previous episodes, and so moving forward, I'm actually saving up right now to buy my next new construction property.


Naresh Vissa (00:34:13) - New construction. Me personally, I think that's a way to go, there's no doubt about it. And because I went from 2 to 7, that was the game changer for me, at least on the taxes on the passive cash flow. And look, I'm relatively young. I'm in my mid 30s. But when I think about retirement, which I don't think about much, but sometimes I do, and when I do think about it, I'm like these eight properties, if I hold on to them, that's a nice retirement that I have in retirement. That's a great passive cash flow. By then the mortgages will be paid off. Although we believe in refi til you die. Just to get a little more specific about some of these incentives, I'm looking at the Florida ones right in front of me. Option one, for example, is a 4.25% interest rate. That's where the buy down the 2.75% buyer paid point buy down. But it comes with two years of free property management. I think the best deal if you want zero buy down it's two years of free property management seller paid closing costs of 1.5%.


Naresh Vissa (00:35:19) - So that's a 1.5% closing cost credit and a 5.75% interest rate that you'll be locked into. I think that's a pretty darn good deal.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:30) - There are some attractive options there. Yeah. It's interesting you raised when you talk about how many properties does it take to change one's life. Yeah. You're right. When you buy your first property, your second property, it isn't life changing. You probably haven't own property long enough yet to benefit from leverage, and surely not cash flow just off 1 or 2 properties. But what happens is you accumulate more is sometimes you don't have to use and save up your own money to buy a new property. You might want to do that, but at the same time, the properties that you bought a few years ago have built up enough equity. So now that rather than your money buying new properties, it's like your properties, buy your new properties for you as you do these cash out refinances. And that's where you really get things rolling. So it can take a few properties and a few years.


Keith Weinhold (00:36:16) - But nowadays you're so right about the opportunity really being with New Build. Today I'm a guest on other shows and a lot of people are just an economics host. They think about real estate investing, they think about higher mortgage rates, and they're like, you know, where's the opportunity for an investor today? And that's usually what I tell him. It's with these builder rate buy downs on new build properties. Take advantage of that this year.


Naresh Vissa (00:36:38) - Absolutely. So like I said great marketplace. You can get more information set up meetings with Andrea or me or whoever you're assigned investment coaches. If you don't have an assigned investment coach, take your pick and let's get your real estate investment journey either started or on cruise control.


Keith Weinhold (00:36:57) - If you have any last thoughts, whether that's this year's direction of prices or rents or the economy as it relates to real estate or anything else at all.


Naresh Vissa (00:37:07) - Well, Keith, I think we're about to see and we don't get political on here, but for whatever reason, we tend to see crazy financial markets during election years, whether it's presidential elections or midterm elections.


Naresh Vissa (00:37:22) - We saw the stock market drop wildly in 2022 during a midterm election year. Of course, 2020 will never forget the craziness of lockdowns and masking and social distancing and what the financial markets did. I mean, all the at least the stock market. President Trump lost all the gains that he had in the stock market as president, were lost in over a two month period in February and March 2020 because of pandemic. And then they came surging back. So the point that I'm making here is economically, I shared my vision of just systematically, I think inflation is going to hit the 2% by the end of the summer. The experts initially thought it would hit the 2% by March. In the latest CPI reading showed that inflation actually went up. I think we're going to see some type of, I don't want to call it a black swan, but this year is not going to go according to plan. Maybe the inflation plummets because something deflationary happens. Or maybe the inflation rises again because something inflationary happens. That's just not on our radar.


Naresh Vissa (00:38:30) - So how does that affect real estate. Well that doesn't change what we said five minutes ago, which is right now, today. Given all this uncertainty, today is still a great time to jump in, because if there is a deflationary event, you can always refinance your rate in a year or two when rates are much lower. And remember, mortgage rates are tax deductible.


Keith Weinhold (00:38:54) - A presidential election year brings more uncertainty than usual. You can buffer yourself from that volatility with real estate and investment that's more stable than most anything else out there. I encourage you, the listener, to check out Naresh and the other coach, Andrea at Great Marketplace, and it can really help you out and help you put a plan together. Hey, it's been great having your thoughts. I think the listeners are going to find this helpful. Thanks for sharing your expertise. Thanks, Keith. Yeah, there's some valuable guidance from Naresh on where the real deals are in this market today. Memphis Bears and Florida, new builds. They're really just two of the dozens of options from Gray's nationwide provider network.


Keith Weinhold (00:39:44) - Learn more, see all the markets or connect with a coach all at Gray Enjoy the Super Bowl I'm Keith Weinhold. Don't quit your Daydream.


Speaker 6 (00:39:59) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 7 (00:40:27) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich

Direct download: GREepisode487_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

California is strengthening protections for tenants. I discuss. It’s already a disadvantageous state for real estate investors. 

My Property Manager had my tenant’s $1,550 rent payment stolen from his drop box last year. He expects me to take the loss. I won’t. Who is liable for the payment - the thief, bank, tenant, manager, or the investor (me)?

Tom Wheelwright, CEO of WealthAbility, joins me. We discuss the role of property tax in funding essential services. 

The conversation touches on the regressive nature of property tax, alternatives to it, and the importance of understanding tax strategies.

US taxes of all types keep ratcheting higher over time. But they’re still lower than most world nations. 

The episode also considers the impact of elections on tax policies, emphasizing the need for informed voting regarding taxation.

You need a tax professional that knows how to find you all the deductions for real estate investors here:


Landlord-Tenant Relationships (00:00:00)

Discussion on landlord-tenant relationships, stolen rent payment, and potential elimination of property tax.

New Renter Protections in California (00:02:30)

Overview of new laws in California regarding upfront deposit amounts, eviction protections, and banning of crime-free housing policies.

Options for Homeowners in California (00:03:50)

Details about new housing laws in California, including more options for accessory dwelling units and their impact on the housing crisis.

Stolen Rent Payment Dilemma (00:05:53)

Narrative about a stolen rent payment, liability concerns, and the property manager's proposed resolution.

Feasibility of Eliminating Property Tax (00:13:45)

Discussion on the possibility of abolishing property tax and its funding of schools, fire departments, and police services.

Property Tax Funding (00:18:37)

Insights into the funding of property tax and its allocation to schools, fire departments, and police services.

Property Tax and Its Impact (00:19:37)

Discussion on the challenges and implications of property tax as a wealth tax and its regressive nature.

National Property Tax Rates (00:20:40)

Exploration of the national average property tax rate and its impact on property value and inflation.

Proposition 13 in California (00:21:34)

Analysis of the impact and benefits of Proposition 13 in California, which limits property tax increases for homeowners staying in the same home.

Alternatives to Property Tax (00:23:27)

Exploration of alternative taxation methods, such as transaction tax and the potential elimination of property tax in favor of a transaction tax.

Primary Residence Capital Gains Tax Exemption (00:25:16)

Insights into the primary residence capital gains tax exemption and its impact on homeowners, including the need for inflation adjustments.

Future Taxation Trends (00:27:24)

Discussion on the potential for heavier taxation and comparisons with taxation policies in other countries.

Potential New Tax Types (00:29:16)

Exploration of the possibility of new tax types, including the concept of a poll tax and its implications.

Value Added Tax and Tax Reduction Strategies (00:31:17)

Insights into the potential implementation of a value-added tax in the United States and strategies for tax reduction through understanding the tax code.

Selecting the Right Tax Advisor (00:33:00)

Advice on choosing a qualified CPA and the importance of having a knowledgeable tax advisor for effective tax planning.

Election Year and Taxation Policies (00:34:54)

Analysis of the potential impact of the upcoming election on taxation policies and the importance of considering tax implications when voting.

Property Tax and School Funding (end)

Perspective on property tax funding for schools and the broader community impact, addressing objections to paying property tax.

Property Tax (00:37:07)

Discussion on the controversial nature of property tax and its impact on property ownership.

Tax Strategy and Deductions (00:38:13)

Importance of finding the right tax professional for real estate investors to maximize deductions and benefits.

Disclaimer (00:39:25)

Legal disclaimer regarding the information provided in the podcast and the need to consult appropriate professionals for personalized advice.

Resources mentioned:

Show Page:

Get matched with the right tax pro:

Tom’s book, “Tax-Free Wealth”:

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. 

You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

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Complete episode transcript:


Keith Weinhold (00:00:00) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. California and new renter protections. My own property manager had my tenants rent payments stolen from his drop box, and he wants me to take the loss. Then Tom Wheelwright joins me for a discussion about can we abolish the property tax today on get rich education? If you like the Get Rich Education podcast, you're going to love our Don't Quit Your Daydream newsletter. No, I here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free. Sign up and Get Rich Education. Com slash letter. It's real content that makes a real difference in your life, spiced with a dash of humor. Rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting GRE to 66866. Text GRE to 66866.


Speaker 2 (00:01:06) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world.


Speaker 2 (00:01:13) - This is get rich education.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:22) - Welcome to GRE! From Montpelier, France, to Montpelier, Vermont, and across 188 nations worldwide. And Keith Weinhold, in your listening to get rich education across the United States, it's fortunate for us that states with landlord friendly policies also tend to be those states where the numbers make sense to. And for landlord tenant relationships, it's the state and local policies that often trump the national ones. Now, of course, in residential real estate or any real estate for that matter. I mean, you can make money in all 50 states, of course, but there's a reason that we generally avoid certain places, and that includes California. One difficulty in California has long been the process of getting a prompt eviction. It can be hard to do that even if you have just cause, where it can take months and months, or even longer than a year to get an eviction. Let's listen in to this minute and a half clip on how tenants rights are being strengthened in California. Just a little more.


Speaker 3 (00:02:30) - Well, every month, renters in California spend a hefty portion of their paychecks on housing. And as we kick off, 2024, seven is on your side with the new laws. Renters should know to save some money and also protect themselves against eviction. Before you lock in an apartment, you usually need your first month plus a security deposit in advance. Well, now the amount you have to pay up front could potentially drop by thousands of dollars.


Speaker 4 (00:02:54) - Landlords can now charge just one month of security deposit up front, and previously they could charge two months if the unit was unfurnished or even up to three months of the unit was furnished.


Speaker 3 (00:03:05) - Renters are also getting new eviction protections. Soon, it will be harder for landlords to evict a tenant under the no fault, just cause policy. Currently, a tenant can be evicted if the landlord or landlord's family is going to move in, but starting April 1st, the landlord or their family will have to move in within 90 days and live there for at least a year.


Speaker 3 (00:03:24) - Local governments are also now banned from crime free housing policies. Cities and counties can't mandate penalties or evictions against people who have been charged, convicted or had police called on them. The ban also applies to the family members of tenants. Now, renters are not the only ones benefiting from the new housing laws. Homeowners will now have more options when it comes to so-called granny flats or accessory dwelling units.


Speaker 4 (00:03:50) - Now they can separate and either build or sell an Adu and accessory dwelling unit and sell that separately as a condo. Lawmakers think that that's something that's going to help the state's housing crisis.


Speaker 3 (00:04:02) - And with housing prices sky high, this could give many would be homebuyers the opportunity they need to afford a starter home.


Keith Weinhold (00:04:09) - Yeah. So there it is in California this year. Lower upfront deposit amounts for tenants and more protection from evictions. California landlords, they can now charge just one month of security deposit upfront. That's the most they can charge. Previously, they could charge two months if the unit was unfurnished and up to three months security deposit if the unit was furnished.


Keith Weinhold (00:04:36) - Now, on the flip side, you've got to give California credit for helping homeowners, existing homeowners. They will now have more options when it comes to so-called ADUs accessory dwelling units, which some people call granny flats, because now they can separate and either build or sell in Adu. They could sell that separately as a condo, and that might help California's affordable housing crisis and the housing shortage crisis that could give more California homebuyers the opportunity that they need to afford a starter home. So that is better for first time homebuyers in California. And whether you live there or not, this matters. California has the same population as all of Canada in between 11 and 12% of all US residents are indeed Californians. Let me tell you about a completely weird situation that I have with one of my property managers. Now, I own rental properties in different states around the US, and each of those local markets has their own manager, and you might have this situation as well. Or perhaps that's what you would soon like to do to have this situation of having properties in multiple markets.


Keith Weinhold (00:05:53) - Well, about 12 months ago now, I got a message from a property manager that manages a bunch of single family homes for me in this one particular area, and he let me know that I was not going to be seeing a rent payment for one of my tenants. And that's because the tenant paid the rent, but they paid it with a paper money order that was left in the manager's overnight drop box and the mail from that box. Was broken into by a thief and stolen. And then apparently the thief converted the money order at the bank by in this house. Unbelievable. By waiting out the name of the money order recipient, which I guess would have been the manager. And then the thief wrote in his own name on the Wite-out. Now there were three tenants that had their payments stolen from my property manager like this. So mine was one of the three from my tenant. And the thief also broke into two other real estate offices around the same time. So the thief broke into three offices total, apparently.


Keith Weinhold (00:07:01) - Now, the question that we're leading up to here is, I tell you more about this. Who is liable for this missing payment? And really, there are five parties here where you could give an answer. Is it the thief, the manager, the tenant, the bank or me? The investor who is liable for that stolen payment? Who should make good on it? Who will make good on it? Now, the amount that we're talking about is a stolen rent of $1,550. Okay. This is a rental single family home that I have. So I've been out this $1,550 for about a year now. And by the way, the tenant that had the rent payment stolen a full year ago, they still live there in their rent is now 1750, but it was 1550 them. Now I'm only making a thing of this a full year later and starting to ask my manager to make me whole now. And that's just because I've got a lot going on in life and $1,550. That's just not enough to make that big of a deal over.


Keith Weinhold (00:08:03) - But when life took a pause and I got to thinking about this some more, the principle of it is really bothersome. Wouldn't it bother you? I mean, if I let others like my manager get away with something like this, then I could get walked all over in other ways. Now, when I requested that the manager paid me because it was their drop box that it was stolen from, really, the only answer that they want to give me is that they can't pay because they don't have insurance to cover that type of loss. Well, I don't either. Now, should the bank be the liable party here for processing a payment where the pay to name was whited out, and then the criminal wrote over it with his name? And by the way, the criminal used his real name. And that's also part of how he got caught, which is unbelievable. And they also, though they do know who the criminal is because they have video surveillance of him at the bank depositing the money orders. I mean, how should he have been able to catch them? But the process of trying to get the criminal to remedy this or the bank to remedy this, those approaches have not worked.


Keith Weinhold (00:09:14) - And I think that the manager wants me to take the loss and pay because he doesn't want to take the loss. And you know, something? Admittedly, between the tenant, the manager and I, I'm probably the one that could most afford the loss, but that does not make it right now. At last, check the property manager who keeps refusing to pay up. They propose something ridiculous that I want to share with you in a moment. You're not going to believe it. Well, as you know, you have a written management agreement when you enter in an agreement to have your manager manage your property for you and that management agreement that's between you, the investor and your manager, just those two parties. And as we know, one job that your manager does for you is that they collect the rent for you. So I figured what I would go do is look at my management agreement, and I'm going to go cite that line where it says that the manager collects the money for the property owner.


Keith Weinhold (00:10:16) - But would you believe it? Nowhere in our agreement does it state that the manager collects the payment for the owner. So here's one lesson. The next time you're signing a new management agreement, see that that line is in there. I think it's just kind of easy to assume that it is. But, you know, those agreements, they're typically written by the property management company. So they might write it in ways that protect them. But here's the thing. The manager still doesn't want to pay $1,550 and was stolen from the drop box. They had proposed something that seems wild to me when I said I'm not going to let go. They told me that their plan is to ask the tenant to pay by adding an extra 150 or $200 to their monthly rent payment until the deficit is paid up. So that would be what, something like eight months of payments. Now, I doubt that the tenant would agree to something like that. If the manager is accepting rent in a drop box, it seems like it's the manager's responsibility to make sure that it's secured.


Keith Weinhold (00:11:20) - So to me, of the five parties involved here, it should be either the criminal, the bank for processing the payment that way, or the manager that should be held liable. One of those three parties, not the property owner and not the tenant. So you've got to believe that I consider firing this property manager and using someone else. And by the way, whenever you have to do that, if you ever do have to do that, and I've had to do it before, you can ask the provider that sold you the property for new property management recommendations, or you can find some new property managers by checking online forums with other clients that have actually used property managers. If you replace your manager. What that does is that your manager, they're going to lose more than just that 8 to 10% monthly management fee. They'd also lose future leasing fees. They lose any arrangements that they have with service providers to service your property, like plumbers and electricians. When it comes time for you to sell your properties that your manager manages for you, that manager might also lose the ability to collect referral fees at that, manager has the real estate license so you can make firing your manager hurt them more than you might think.


Keith Weinhold (00:12:40) - Now, I don't like hurting anyone in business. That's why I'm trying to find a constructive way to resolve this. But the manager has had a long time to make this right with me. They're probably just hoping I would forget about the whole thing. The property manager does not want to take the loss, and I will not either. I'll keep you updated on how this weird situation concludes here, but yeah. Hey, I'm an investor just like you. I want to dig in and get involved sometimes and see if something like a stolen rent payment happened with a stock that you own. I mean, you might take the loss there and you wouldn't even know that it happened. So I like real estate investing trends agency with a manager. I don't have the day to day involvement responsibility, but yet I can see a lot of what's going on with the monthly statements that they send me. Or if I have a concern, I know who I can directly contact to remedy something. And if you're a new real estate investor, please be mindful that this situation with my manager and the stolen rent payment is not typical at all.


Keith Weinhold (00:13:45) - In 20 years of doing this, I have never had a situation like this. In a few minutes here, we're going to discuss how feasible it is that America could eliminate the property tax altogether. And our guests. He's also going to tell us why he's been seeing more people like you paying tax on the gain from the sale of your primary residence. Hey, would you like to see me at breaking down real estate investing concepts on a whiteboard? Yes, a magic marker in hand with a whiteboard and an easel. Well, you can watch me do that from the comfort of your home. Over on our YouTube channel, we recently launched our explained series, and I begin it by breaking down basics and just showing you an actual net worth and actual cash flow statement, and then figuring out how you can take those and learn exactly when you can quit your job and retire. It's easier to do the numbers over there than it is here on an audio format, and later I'll whiteboard some more advanced concepts for you soon, like explaining an inverted yield curve.


Keith Weinhold (00:15:00) - Watch me on the whiteboard in our explained series. It is free on YouTube right now and our channel is pretty easy to find because it's called get Rich education. Eliminating the property tax. Next I'm Keith White hold. You're listening to get rich education. Role under the specific expert with income property, you need Ridge lending group and MLS 42056 in gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four Plex's. Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge personally. They'll even customize a plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Ridge lending You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them.


Keith Weinhold (00:16:20) - It's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains and your W-2 jobs income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, 686, six.


Speaker 5 (00:17:02) - This is author Christine Tait. Listen to get Rich education with Keith Reinhold and don't quit your Daydream.


Keith Weinhold (00:17:19) - A renowned tax and wealth expert is back on the show with us today. He's also a CPA, and he's the CEO of a terrific tax firm called Wealth Ability. He's the best selling author of the Mega-popular book Tax Free Wealth, which you may very well want to check out again, because he just updated that book with a third edition. I have the original tax free wealth on my bookshelf.


Keith Weinhold (00:17:40) - Welcome back to Dr. Tom Wheelwright. Thanks, Keith. Always good to be on your show. Tom, we have a lot of real estate investors listening. Why don't we talk about property tax? It applies to one whether they own income, property or whether they own a primary residence. Tom, I thought about the discussion that we were going to have today. I was thinking about it yesterday. And you know what happened? I looked out my window and the garbage had just been picked up from the curb, and this was shortly after my driveway was plowed of snow. Okay, now, if an alien came down from another planet and we described that there's a property tax in the United States, so we'll probably believe, oh, all right. Well, they're going to like, pick up your trash and like, plow your driveway for you and everything for that property tax you pay. It's like, oh no. Well those are separate services that I pay. So really what I'm getting at is maybe more philosophically in big picture, should there be a property tax? That's a big question.


Keith Weinhold (00:18:37) - Yeah. But let's do talk about what property tax funds. So property tax funds schools. It's the primary funding mechanism of schools. If you talk to an old timer they still call it school tax sometimes. Yeah it funds schools. It funds fire departments. It funds the police. So those are the three big services that have funds. This is why, by the way, Keith, when there was that group in Seattle that took over that section of the city and the government refused to send to kick those people out. I don't know if you remember this a couple of years ago. And I'm going, wait a minute, why are we paying property taxes? Because the police force and the fire department were being paid by property taxes on the buildings that had been taken over by this renegade group. Wow. And so I have a commercial property. I pay a huge property tax on that commercial property doesn't house children, so I don't send children to school, but I still pay tax for education. Why? Because I need educated employees, so I'm happy to do that.


Keith Weinhold (00:19:37) - I pay for fire protection. I pay it for police protection. I think what the money is used for generally is fine. I don't have an issue with that. The challenge I have with the property tax is twofold. One is it is a true wealth tax. If your property goes up in value, you pay more tax and it's a tax on inflation, because if you're a property goes up in value because of inflation, you pay more tax. And then second of all, you're out to sell your property. But it's also a regressive tax. So people who have no more income, they're on fixed income, they're Social Security. They have a pension plan whatever that their property goes up because of inflation, not because it's a better property and they're paying more tax even though their incomes not going up. That's my biggest challenge with property tax. That's really a good point. I had never thought about it that way before. The property tax can be a regressive tax. Therefore you pay a higher rate with a lower income, which is what a regressive tax means.


Keith Weinhold (00:20:40) - I know that some jurisdictions try to help senior citizens out with that. Maybe you both say like the first 100 K of assessed property value is exempt. But yeah, on basis you're right about that. With it being a regressive tax. Tom, I kind of look around the landscape. We deal with a lot of markets and properties and providers nationwide here at gray, and I seem to see a national effect of property tax rate of about 1%, something like that's pretty common 1% of value on a 500 K property. You're going to pay about $5,000 in property tax. Of course, that varies substantially. New Jersey is a really high one. So the states in the Deep South are really low ones. But what are your thoughts about that 1% average national effect? Think about that tax rate. Let's say you bought that property for $50,000. You bought the property for $50,000 based on your income. You bought it for $50,000. Now, because of inflation, it's $500,000. Now it's really a 10% of what you bought it for.


Keith Weinhold (00:21:34) - So it's not really 1% anymore. It's 1% of the price value. It's not 1% of what you paid for it. This is where California with prop 13 they apt their property tax. Right. If you didn't move into a new property. I loved that proposition. Frankly, I love prop 13 because what I said was, look, if you're staying the same home, your property tax isn't going to go up. Because you get no more value out of it than you did when you bought it. So why are you getting more tax even though you're not getting more value? That makes no sense. I'm not a big fan. You know, like Texas has a they rely heavily on property. Remember we have three types of taxes. We have an income tax. We have a transaction tax which the biggest one is sales tax. But it's also excise taxes. And then we have property tax. And property tax and estate tax are the only two wealth taxes we have. And property tax is a true wealth tax.


Keith Weinhold (00:22:29) - Why is it allowed. Why can we have a property tax in our hometown. But we can't have a federal property tax because Constitution doesn't allow a federal property tax. But our state constitution probably does allow a state property tax. And so robbery taxes are really interesting. I talk about in tax free wealth. Tax wealth has a chapter on property sales and property tax. It's my least favorite tax because again A it's regressive and B it's a tax on something I've never realized. The only benefit I have is that I live in it. But that benefit's not gone up even though the property tax goes up. You brought up so many interesting things there. Sure, that proposition in California is what kept people staying in their homes for a very long time. But we think about property tax and should there even be one? As we ponder that big question, what do other nations do? Because a lot of times I know you look at foreign nations tax policies. Most localities. A lot of them have a local property tax.


Keith Weinhold (00:23:27) - I don't think it's uncommon. What's interesting to me is that Missouri is looking at getting rid of their property tax and putting in a transaction tax instead. So in other words, you don't pay a tax for owning the property. You only pay a tax when you sell it. Well, that actually makes more sense. You know, in previous episode we talked about more versus United States. We talked about that whole idea of a wealth tax and realized gain. And some states do this already. California does this, Hawaii does this, Pennsylvania does this where you have a tax when you sell the property, an excise tax when you sell the property, or a transfer tax, if you will? That makes some sense because you did get the money. You actually have the ability to pay the tax. It's not coming out of your earnings. It came out of the sale of the property. So it's a tax on the sale. Frankly, if I had to choose, I would probably choose the transaction tax.


Keith Weinhold (00:24:23) - I mean, I would choose to have very little tax. I think we need fire. We need police. Those two things we absolutely need we need roads. We should have taxes to pay for those school. I'm a fan of school choice. And should we have property tax pay for those? Or is that something that we ought to pay for some other way? I don't know, there is argument that, again, that should be maybe you ought to pay that out of sales tax or a transaction tax. Yeah. I think I'm feeling your vibe on that one time that a transfer tax of real estate is somewhat more palatable than this ongoing property tax that you have to pay, because the transfer tax probably is realizing a gain there. Along with that, even though we probably don't like that piled on top of ongoing property tax, for sure. We think about property taxes, something that applies to every homeowner, whether they own income, property or not, is the pretty well known primary residence capital gains tax exemption for quite a while.


Keith Weinhold (00:25:16) - That's been 250 K if you're single and 500 K if you're married. Can you tell us more about that and where the direction of that's going? And is that adjusting with inflation or what are your thoughts. Yeah, it's not adjusting for inflation unfortunately. It's interesting. Some things adjust for inflation. Some things don't. Tax brackets adjust the exclusion for your primary residence doesn't. And your deduction for miles driven for charity doesn't adjust for inflation. But your deduction for miles driven for work does adjust for inflation. So it's very interesting to see what does Congress say. We're going to adjust for for inflation. What they don't. That came into effect under Bill Clinton prior to his presidency. You had to actually put your new house, had to be worth more than your old house is very much like a 1031 exchange where as long as you bought a new house that was equal to or greater in price than the sales price of your old house, you paid no tax but the minute you went down. So when, for example, you're retiring and you decide, well, I don't need all this house, my kids are gone, I'm going to go move into a condo on the golf course, or I just don't need that much space.


Keith Weinhold (00:26:25) - Then you had to pay tax. What happened in the Clinton era was we actually got this exclusion, which is as long as you live in the house for two years, two out of the last five years, you get 100% exclusion on the gain, up to 250, like you said, 250 single, 500 joint. I would love to see them index that. I think it needs to be indexed. Frankly, they need to adjust it retroactively because too many people got caught in this last run up where for the first time ever, I saw a lot of people paying tax on the gain from the sale of their house. Yeah, that's something that you hope that you don't have to do. We'll see if and when they do adjust that for inflation. I'm not always talked about property tax bill. Why don't we open it up somewhat more and talk more about what we discussed the last time you were here on the show with us? Well, I think we already learned then whether Americans, just over time, over the long term, are more likely taxed or more heavily taxed.


Keith Weinhold (00:27:24) - It seems like they're always piling on more and more taxes. What are your thoughts with where we're going on lighter taxation or heavier taxation? I said, well, we rarely get taxed less. We're actually taxed less than just about any other country. Just to be clear, we pay a lower share of our income in taxes than just about any other country. But of course, we have much, many fewer benefits. We don't have national health care. We have Social Security, but it's a small amount, right. In France, remember, they had these big protests, right? Because the French president raised the retirement age from 62 to 64. Why were so many people protesting that? Well, it's because in France the salaries aren't enough to keep up. And so they're relying on that. They can't save up and say, I'm going to retire earlier because I've saved up money. There's not enough income for them to save. So they're relying on the government to save for them. That was a hard thing for them.


Keith Weinhold (00:28:18) - We have a hard time understanding that in the US because our tax rates are so much lower. France, for example, I was. Reading. That's the other day. 50% of GDP goes to taxes in France. In the US it's about 26% of GDP. So we're almost half of what percentage of our GDP goes to taxes. So they're the highest. What's happening is you're seeing Germany. There's this going up Korea. Theirs has gone up, Japan theirs has gone up. And the US, they expect ours to be up. It's 28% of GDP within a few years. So it's all relative, right. The problem is, is that the taxes are more and more as a proportion of our gross domestic product. If you think the government should stay out of our lives, then you're on the wrong end of that stick, because that means that the government's getting more and more involved, and more and more money is being spent by the government instead of the private sector. Well, Tom, you've been here on the show with us a lot of times.


Keith Weinhold (00:29:16) - We've talked about how your rental income gets taxed. We've talked about capital gains tax and property tax and sales tax and income tax, one tax type we haven't talked about. When we think about whether things just get worse as the government piles on more taxes, is there any threat in your mind of a tax for those that don't know what that is? That's basically a head tax. That's a tax that's imposed on you just for existing. Is that a possibility? Zionist capitation tax and not a decapitation tax. It might feel like one. Yeah. It's, uh, commonly called the poll tax write poll. As in poll. You go to the polls that the number of people that is actually allowed, the government could impose that that is allowed under a constitution, a poll tax. Great Britain has a poll tax. So it's not unheard of. I haven't heard a lot of people talk about. The problem is, is that a poll tax is a tax on voters. And we know politicians don't want to put a tax on voters.


Keith Weinhold (00:30:16) - Right. So where's the incentive to vote? They're more likely to put a tax on corporations who don't vote. I'll tell you the favourite tax. The favourite tax is to put a tax on out-of-towners. Somebody who's coming into your place like a travel tax. One of the key policy points of any tax unit is you want to export your tax to people who don't vote for you. So you're always trying to put the tax on somebody who doesn't can't vote for you. Because if you put on people who do vote for you, you will soon lose your job. Interesting point. That's why you see taxes on Ubers and taxis and hotels, resort taxes. You see those kind of tax skills are basically export tax, right? They're taxing people who don't live and vote in your state or in your location. A poll tax would be a tax on people who do live in your state or location. I have a hard time seeing that one coming down the line. More likely is you really wanted us to be more competitive with the rest of the world.


Keith Weinhold (00:31:17) - We'd have a value added tax in the United States, we do not have one. And if you wanted to make us more competitive with the rest of the world, if you really want to raise funds or you want to pay off the deficit, or you want to get rid of an income tax, the best way to do it would be a value added tax. Well, maybe you, the listener, just have a shred of a little something to be thankful for. There are tax types you've heard of that we don't actually have yet. There actually are some remaining. It seems like they'll all get used up. Europe has a. Europe uniformly has a 20% value added tax that just goes to increases the price of your meals at a restaurant, increases the price of every product you buy. That's a value added tax. That's a national sales tax that is common in the rest of the world. We're the only major developed country that doesn't have one. Well, at least in Europe, they're not asking that.


Keith Weinhold (00:32:06) - When you get your restaurant meal bill that you add a tip onto the tax about, like what's happening a lot of times here. And I think a lot of people aren't even aware of that. That's another absurdity. Yeah. Another absurdity of being a consumer in the United States today. Tom, you're really an expert in helping people understand that there are so many parts of the tax code out there for reducing one's taxes. The tax code, mostly most of the pages are about tax reduction. There are just a few pages about the tax tables. And then basically the rest of the tax code says you have to pay the tax in those tables if you don't do these other things. So tell us more about how one and everyday people can learn and get informed by being matched up with the right professional, so they can learn about all those exceptions to paying those taxes in the tables. I appreciate your promotion of tax free wealth because that's the starting point. You really do need to understand the concepts, and the concepts are all in tax free wealth.


Keith Weinhold (00:33:00) - Okay, so really inexpensive way for you to get an education. Once you've got the education though, you do need a team around you. And what I think the most important person, well outside of your bookkeeper, who I actually think is the most important person of that team, I think your number two person is your CPA. And I'm going to be very specific. There are a lot of people who hold themselves out as tax advisors, and I would not touch them with a ten foot pole. Whether it's I don't want a financial planner giving me tax advice, nor do I want a CPA, give me financial advice. Let's have a specialist do the specialist work. I don't want an enrolled agent. And the reason I don't want enrolled agent. If I'm really simple, that's great. But remember enrolled agent, they have very little education. They took a test. An IRS test that takes a couple of hours. That's all they did. If you're a business owner, you're a serious investor. You need a CPA and you need a CPA who cares more about you than they do about protecting themselves from the IRS.


Keith Weinhold (00:33:59) - This is one of my big complaints about some of my fellow CPAs is they seem to be so concerned about an audit. And my question is, if you're so concerned about an audit, does that mean you're afraid of the IRS? And if your CPA is afraid of the IRS, it's probably time to get a new CPA. That's right. Well, please, I tell you, we have a resource on our website where you can connect with Tom's team and get messed up with the right advisor. That is it. Get rich education complex. But like Tom said, a good thing to do is read his book, Tax Free Wealth first. That way you'll be able to ask the right questions so you can get the right answers from the right professional that you can be messed up with. Tom, do you have any last thoughts? Here is we're still relatively new in a year here when it comes to taxation, and one taking their plans forward through the year. Let's remember that we have an election coming up this year.


Keith Weinhold (00:34:54) - And one of the biggest issues in this election is going to be taxation. There's certain politicians that would like to take the 2017 tax reductions and extend them. There are others that would like to eliminate them and actually raise taxes. A couple of years ago, we had a proposal called Build Back Better. Great. Started as a $6 trillion proposal and ended up being $2 trillion and change the name to, quote unquote, the Inflation Reduction Act, or as I like to call it, the Inflation Enhancement Act. But that's going to be back. So you may love one party. You may hate the other party. Just know that when you go to vote, think about you are voting for a tax increase or a tax decrease depending on who you vote for. Look at their policies. Look at what they propose. Look at what they've been talking about. Don't believe for a second that they're gonna all of a sudden say, well, we're not going to raise taxes, when in fact they're looking at you and they're going, is that my money in your pocket? It is a presidential election year.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:59) - The good news is you now have a way for your voice to be heard this year in taxes are part of that, Tom. We're right. It's a great having you back on the show. Thanks, Keith. Sometimes I hear people that pay property tax but yet don't have any children themselves. They say that, well, since property tax often funds schools that they're opposed to paying it. Well, let's look at it this way. I'm a person that doesn't have any kids yet. And even if I never do have kids, well, when I was a kid myself, I attended public school. So therefore I was the beneficiary of adults paying property tax to fund the school that I went to. So therefore, when you think of it in those terms, it's more palatable for a, I suppose, non father like me to pay it forward, pass it along and pay school tax for others. So though there may be other objections to paying property taxes, not having children, that's often not such a valid reason when you think about it that way.


Keith Weinhold (00:37:07) - Now, I think that the Liberty First Society's Christian Hall, she has an interesting take on property tax. Here's what she said. And I quote, property tax should end when you complete the sale or purchase, just like you do when you buy groceries or a bicycle. It's theft of ownership to keep paying property taxes, especially when government has the authority to take your property. When you don't pay your taxes for three years. That's not property tax, that's rent, and you're a tenant in your own home. Property tax makes government the owner of your property, not you. End quote. And again, that is from the Liberty First Society's Chris Ian Hall, thought provoking, if nothing else. Now, when it comes to finding the right professional to get real estate investors, all of our generous and legitimate deductions that we enjoy, I mean, it is one of the five ways real estate pays. After all, you do need to find the right pro so that they can find all the deductions for you.


Keith Weinhold (00:38:13) - And this is just the time of year to get that right. For more than ten years now, I have had the world's number one tax firm do my wealth strategy, my tax strategy and my tax preparation. I even use my bookkeeper through them. They understand what real estate investors need. They make sure that I don't miss out on optimizing benefits and deductions for mortgage interest and tax depreciation and property tax and cost segregation, which accelerates my deductions. And they make sure I get infinite capital gains tax deferrals and bonus depreciation and so much more. All the good things that real estate investors get when you work with an investor centric tax professional. In this way, you can also legally write off many of your expenses for property management and maintenance and utilities and even your travel. So you can do that by connecting with Tom's team by visiting get rich That is this week's actionable resource. Until next week I'm your host Keith White. Hold don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 6 (00:39:25) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice.


Speaker 6 (00:39:29) - Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.


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Has America already descended into a depression worse than the 1930s Great Depression?

Today’s guest, Doug Casey, suggests that we have. He joins us from Buenos Aires, Argentina, where inflation has been 100%+.

Is real estate cheap, adequately priced, or overpriced?

America’s national debt is so bad that we must now spend $1T annually just on the interest alone. 

Keith Weinhold and guest Doug Casey explore the silent economic depression in America, discussing signs and impacts on daily life. 

They compare real estate affordability across locations, viewing housing as a consumer good. Doug offers insights on Argentina's housing market, inflation, and the new president's influence. 

They critique government intervention, fiat currency, and advocate for gold-backed currency, emphasizing moral values. 

Strategies to counter currency debasement, like investing in durable goods and property improvements, are shared, alongside the benefits of spending on experiences and potential tax advantages of real assets.


The silent economic depression (00:00:00)

Discussion on the concept of a silent economic depression and how it may be affecting America.

Real estate and property management issues (00:02:32)

An unusual property management incident and the impact of inflation on real estate in Argentina.

The guest's background and consistency (00:03:53)

The guest's background, consistency in views, and a discussion on diverse viewpoints.

Comparison of housing costs (00:04:59)

Comparison of housing costs and other expenses between the Great Depression era and the present day.

Real estate in the United States and Argentina (00:06:08)

Comparison of real estate prices and living expenses in the United States and Argentina.

Housing as a consumer good (00:09:29)

Discussion on housing as a consumer good and the impact of government policies on housing and wealth creation.

Comparison of housing costs and amenities (00:10:56)

Comparison of housing costs, amenities, and political changes in Argentina.

Impact of inflation on standard of living (00:14:37)

The impact of inflation on capital, standard of living, and the unsustainability of the current economic situation.

Government deficits and inflation (00:18:05)

Discussion on government deficits, inflation, erosion of the middle class, and the role of the government in creating inflation.

A Currency and Gold (00:20:22)

Doug Casey discusses the benefits of using gold as currency and the potential impact of government involvement.

Investing and Loans (00:22:42)

Keith discusses investing in real estate and loans, providing insights and tips for beginners and veterans.

Government Numbers and Inflation (00:24:54)

Doug challenges the accuracy of government unemployment and inflation figures and predicts higher inflation levels due to excessive money creation.

US Involvement and Financial Meltdown (00:27:57)

Doug discusses the impact of US military involvement, potential financial meltdown, and the unstable foundation of global debt.

Strategies to Counter Currency Debasement (00:32:05)

Doug presents the concept of saving in durable goods as a strategy to counter currency debasement and avoid capital gains tax.

Beating Inflation (00:34:41)

Keith proposes spending money as a way to beat inflation and improve quality of life, while Doug emphasizes the importance of saving for the future.

Doug Casey's Novels and Publications (00:36:44)

Doug promotes his novels and encourages listeners to subscribe to and watch his YouTube channel for more insights.

Improving Quality of Life and Beating Inflation (00:38:03)

Keith suggests making improvements to one's home as a way to beat inflation and improve quality of life, without incurring higher tax assessments.

These are the timestamps covered in the podcast episode transcription segment, along with their respective topics.

Resources mentioned:

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Doug Casey’s YouTube Channel:

Doug Casey’s blog:

Doug Casey on Donahue in 1980:

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Complete episode transcript:


Keith Weinhold (00:00:00) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Is America suffering from a silent economic depression? It's gradually creeping into your life, but you just haven't noticed. That's what today's guest believes. Where do you look for signs of this? And what do you do about it? A silent depression today on get rich education. If you like the get Rich education podcast, you're going to love art. Don't quit your day dream newsletter. No, I here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free! Sign up a get rich It's real content that makes a real difference in your life, spiced with a dash of humor. Rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting gray to 66866. Text gray to 66866.


Speaker 2 (00:01:06) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world.


Speaker 2 (00:01:13) - This is get rich education.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:22) - Welcome to GRE, heard across 188 world nations, including Equatorial Guinea. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. This is get rich education, the voice of real estate investing since 2014. How can your quality of life and your one and only standard of living actually be getting worse today, especially here in the United States? From your iPhone, with fast Wi-Fi to a stable electrical grid to a bounty of produce for you to select at the supermarket, well, we'll soon learn why today's renowned guest and prolific author feels like we've already entered a silent depression. He is going to make his case. We have plenty to get to with our guest. But first, I've got a problem with one of my property managers, and this is a really weird one. In two decades of doing this. This is among the weirdest. What happened a while back is that one of my ten ends that this manager manages. Okay, the tenant paid his rent with a paper money order and he placed it in the property managers drop box.


Keith Weinhold (00:02:32) - They're at their offices. The money order was stolen out of the drop box by a thief. The manager doesn't want to take responsibility for it. And I'm the one that's been out. The rent money, the $1,550. I've told the manager, no, I'm not going to be pushed around like that. So there are more details on that, which I expect to tell you about next week. It is an interesting situation to say the least. I'll give you more on the payment stolen from the manager's overnight drop box. Now today's guest will join me from Buenos Aires, Argentina, where they currently have inflation of perhaps 100% or 200% per year. We're going to talk about real estate and probably more with what he calls the silent, depressed. Now I'm probably a more upbeat, optimistic sort than our guest in general, but that does not make him wrong at all with this silent depression. But here, in a world where we've increasingly heard the word diversity a lot for the last decade, well, there are a lot of ways to think of diversity, and I like to champion some diversity of thought around here with our guests viewpoint today.


Keith Weinhold (00:03:53) - Now, I just recently saw a YouTube video of today's guest on The Phil Donahue Show in 1980. It was probably about the best known talk show that there was back in that era. And by the way, I'll leave that link in the show notes for you so that you can watch it too. And since today's episode is episode number 485, you can get the show notes either it get Rich education comp 485 or on your pod catcher. But yeah, Phil Donahue, he was kind of before my time. But yeah, really well-known show. And it's interesting to see today's guest and what he looked like back then. And from watching that video myself, I can tell you that one place where I do need to give this guest credit is with consistency. Now, does every single the world is going to end sort of thing that he says will happen? Does that end up happening? That's up for you to determine. But, you know, he has been consistent on promoting his ideals for a smaller government and more he's returning.


Keith Weinhold (00:04:59) - Guest. Let's meet him and discuss the silent depression. Are we on the verge of an economic depression known as a silent depression, where you're not aware of it? Today's guest has pointed out that during the 1930s Great Depression, the average home cost just three times the average income, but today it costs about eight times as much. The average car costs about 46% of a year's earnings back then. Today, it eats up about 85% of the annual average wage. Rent, which previously claimed just 16% of yearly income, now demands an astounding 42%. So by these metrics and others, you might wonder if the average person is actually in a worse position than during the Great Depression, which was the most challenging economic period in the last hundred years. A lot of people feel it. You might be getting squeezed, and by the end here you'll hear some new ideas for what you can actually do about it. We have a rather revered guest here with us today. He's been here a few times before to discuss other economic and real estate concepts.


Keith Weinhold (00:06:08) - He's a very popular author, often writing around the topic of crisis investing and known as the International Man. He hosts a podcast on YouTube called Doug Castaic. He's known as the International Man because he's extremely well traveled. He has residences in multiple nations today. Hey, it's great to have back on GRI the incomparable Doug Casey. Thanks. Okay.


Doug Casey (00:06:30) - It's a pleasure to be here. At the moment I'm in Buenos Aires, where I've lived part of the Earth for a long time.


Keith Weinhold (00:06:38) - Truly the international man living up to it today. Doug, I touched on housing to start with. With real estate show housing is one's biggest recurring expense in life, unless it's taxes. But today I actually think it's a valid question. Is real estate cheap in the United States? Is it adequately priced or is it overpriced? Now, depending on how you slice it, the median U.S. home value is 450 K, but if your mind shoots right to dollars like that, when you consider valuation, the dollar has been debased so much that it's a pretty poor measuring stick.


Keith Weinhold (00:07:15) - I know you like gold. A bar of gold is the same today as it was 100 years ago and a thousand years ago, and today it takes about 40% fewer ounces of gold to buy a home today than the long run 100 year average. So what we just did there is we got rid of dollars. We compared the relative cost between two real assets gold and real estate. You brought up a really good point in one of your articles, though. I think it's a better way to measure the cost of housing as a percent of one income, it takes two and a half times to three times as much of that annual income to own a home or rent a home today than it did in the 1930s. So when we think about housing costs, what are your thoughts?


Doug Casey (00:07:58) - It depends on where you are and where should I start? Right now, as I said, I'm in Buenos Aires and the apartment that I'm in here is about 5500ft² in a part of town, which is very much like the Upper East Side of New York.


Doug Casey (00:08:16) - It's called the Recoleta. Now, what would a a very classy top building with 24 hour security apartment of 5500ft² cost you in, uh, on the Upper East Side of New York, I'd say probably $20 million, roughly here in the Buenos Aires. This apartment is really got a current market price of about $1 million. In other words, 5% of what it is in New York. Yeah, costs of maintaining it are in line with that. That's point number one. Point number two is in most of the world, or certainly here in South America, when you buy something, you buy it for cash. In the U.S., when you buy something, it's usually for a mortgage. And the old saying, I'll give you the price you want if you give me the terms I want. Right. Not quite as attractive as it was just a while ago, where the average mortgage, now 30 year mortgage fixed in the US 7%, and for a while it was 8%. What do I think of the price of housing in the US? That's where most of your listeners live.


Doug Casey (00:09:29) - First of all, housing is not, in my opinion, an investment. It's a consumer good. It's very expensive. Consumer goods are not throwaway consumer goods like toothbrushes. Longer live consumer goods like a suit of clothes longer yet like a car and a house is just a longer alive consumer good. But an investment is something that produces new wealth, right? Housing doesn't it? Can? I mean, if you use it as a business. Yes. Okay, look, treat your house like a consumer. Good. That's the first mistake that everybody makes. They think it's an investment. That's going to go up. It's not. It's like a car. It should depreciate. It's got expenses to maintain it. That income that maintains you. I know you can rent it out and so forth, but.


Keith Weinhold (00:10:20) - Yeah, we champion residential income property around here. Something that I think you and I do consider an asset. But yeah, you're completely right. When you talk about the primary residence side, a home is primarily a liability, not an asset.


Keith Weinhold (00:10:32) - Why is that? Because a home takes money out of your pocket every month. Rather than putting money into your pocket every month like you touched on. Doug, before we go on about that 5500 square foot apartment there in Buenos Aires, I'm not familiar with the area. Can you just tell me a little bit more about the amenities that you have there? Are there very steep condo association dues? Is there a doorman? Tell me more about it.


Doug Casey (00:10:56) - Well, we have a doorman here in the building. We only have six apartments in this building. I have a two story penthouse, so it's probably the best apartment in the building. This area, the Recoleta. Like I said, it's like the Upper East Side of New York. We have lots of fine restaurants with short walk away. I pay my maid. We have a full time maid here. In addition, she earns $1,000 a month. Where can you get a full time maid in the US for a thousand bucks a month? Let me point something out.


Doug Casey (00:11:25) - That's very interesting. In Argentina, they elected a new president. And this is one of the most radical political changes in all of Western history. The new president of Argentina is a chap named Javier Mula. He identifies radically and openly as an anarcho capitalist. In other words, what he's interested in doing is basically tearing apart the government of Argentina and getting rid of as much of it as he can, all of it that we can. Now. Argentina is full of taxes, full of regulations. That's a delightful place to live. But if you want to do business or create wealth, it's a very bad place to live.


Keith Weinhold (00:12:10) - Well, with inflation.


Doug Casey (00:12:11) - Yeah, exactly. I mean, right now they have inflation of about, they say 140% per year, but it's more like 200 or 300% per year. You can trust the Argentine government's figures at all. You can only trust the US government's figures marginally more. But Melaye, as we talk, is firing massive numbers of government employees. It's eliminating agencies and so forth, and the government and the next step will be radically reduced taxes, radically reduced regulations.


Doug Casey (00:12:41) - So this department here is, I think, within the next five years, going to be selling for about what one what its sister on the Upper East Side of New York might be selling out. So I hope to make 10 to 1 on my money on this piece of real estate as a speculation. And it's a nice place to live in the meantime.


Keith Weinhold (00:13:01) - Yeah, with Malay in Argentina, it'll be interesting to see if he sticks with their currency moving from the Argentine peso to the dollar. It sounds like he might already be backing off of that. But getting back to your condo there, Doug. And yeah, that would be a terrific arbitrage play if you indeed bought low in the Buenos Aires market goes up, it sounds like an exceptional value you get there. We talk about our homes overpriced today, especially in the United States. Or are they underpriced? We talked about how one spends more of their proportion of income on housing today, and if that might make them trend toward this silent depression. But of course, you also get more home today.


Keith Weinhold (00:13:39) - I mean, 100 plus years ago in the United States, a new Victorian style home, it had sparse amenities and maybe 950ft². And today, an American home averages 2415ft². That's the figure. So you might pay two and a half times more of your income, but you might get two and a half times more square footage and of course, maybe like you're finding in your place there in Argentina, Doug, the average American home, it has features today that would have been considered unthinkable a hundred years ago. Luxuries, things that would have been considered luxuries back then like air conditioning and multiple bathrooms, quartz countertops, closets so vast that you could play pickleball inside them. So you're getting more home today, and it really hardly feels like a depression era lifestyle for many. But there are some less fortunate people, and inflation has widened this gap between the haves and the have nots. So what are your thoughts, especially when it comes to housing and the fact that you're getting more today? But not everyone is.


Doug Casey (00:14:37) - Because advances in technology, number one and number two, the fact that the average person is wired to produce more than they consume and save the difference, of course, we have more today than we did 100 years ago. That goes without saying, but it doesn't seem that way because even though workers are more productive than they were in the past, everything is fine. As with debt today, people talk about inflation as if it's just part of the cosmic firmament. It just happens. It doesn't happen. The government is the sole and entire cause of inflation. It does it by printing up money directly and indirectly. And what that does is it destroys the capital that you save. Americans save in dollars. Okay. You want to get ahead. You use more than you consume and you save the difference in dollars. But when the government destroys those dollars through inflation, your standard of living goes down. Now, that's been disguised through that. It used to be that when you bought a house, you paid cash for it.


Doug Casey (00:15:52) - Then many years ago, it started out with the. A five year mortgage with 20% down. Now we're talking about 30 year mortgages so that you really never own your home. Inflation is the real problem. It destroys capital. It destroys people's standard of living. The standard of living, generally speaking, in the US is going down. It's disguised by the fact that when you borrow money, you're either taking capital that people have saved in the past and you're using it for consumer goods now, or you're mortgaging your future for a higher standard of living. Today, all of that we have in the US, I think is unsustainable. And we could have either a credit collapse if they don't create money fast enough, or if they raise interest rates too high, or we can have something resembling a hyperinflation we have down here in Argentina. Either way, it's going to be very, very bad news because in an advanced industrial society like the US, to poison the money supply with inflation is asking for economic catastrophe.


Doug Casey (00:17:06) - So I think what we're looking at over the next ten years, and this is true for a number of reasons, not least of them, is the fact that Americans have elected in Washington people that are the equivalent of Jacobins during the French Revolution. I mean, they have the same ideas. I'm looking for very, very tough times, quite frankly, not just in the US, but almost everywhere in the world.


Keith Weinhold (00:17:32) - Today in the United States, compared to 100 years ago, one spends more of their income on housing and transportation and healthcare, and less on food and clothing. And yet, Doug, to your point about inflation, like dollars are such a poor measuring stick. That's why earlier, when we look at the cost of housing, I tried to discard dollars by going ahead and looking at the ratio between the home price and the gold price. I brought up the point last month with our audience that actually there's no such thing as grocery inflation or rent inflation. It's the government that creates the inflation.


Keith Weinhold (00:18:05) - So it's not landlords or grocers that are creating inflation. Those higher prices are just the consequence of the inflation that the central bank creates. And that's creating this erosion of the middle class, because those in the lower middle class and the poor, they don't have assets that benefit from the inflation. Yet they have the same fixed consumer costs that we're talking about here, like housing, transportation, health care, food and clothing. Talk to us some more about the problem in the government and how that could help lead us toward a silent depression. I know you brought up the point that the US government is running embedded deficits of $2 trillion per year, and that number is going to go much higher, if only because the interest cost alone is $1 trillion per year.


Doug Casey (00:18:49) - Yeah, people have to stop looking at the government as being their friend. It's not. It's a predator. It's a dead hand on top of society. It's certainly not a cornucopia, which is the way most people see the government. The government will give them stuff, right? The government will do stuff now it doesn't.


Doug Casey (00:19:08) - The government produces absolutely nothing that it doesn't take away first from society as a whole. So they have people have to stop looking at the government. It's a friendly big brother. It's more like increasingly the kind of big brother that you might have discovered in George Orwell's 1984. If we want to save the idea of America, which is one of the best ideas that humanity has ever had, we have to get rid of the government or as much of it as we can, and go back to the values, moral values, social values type of thing that this country had 200 years ago, what it was founded. I mean, that's my answer to the question. And the money, the dollar itself is a floating abstraction. It's a fiat currency. It's an IOU. Nothing on the part of a bankrupt government which can't even tax enough to give the money value. It just prints up more money and people out of inertia accept them. Well, there's nothing else they can use to trade Buck. We should go back to gold as being money and even a gold backed currency.


Doug Casey (00:20:22) - A currency is money. It's just a medium of exchange and a store of value. You don't need to insert the government and a central bank in between you and what you do with your fellow citizens in a country. That's why we should use gold, which for thousands of years has proven to be the best thing to use is money. It's one of 92 naturally occurring elements. And just as aluminum is particularly good for building airplanes, uranium is particularly good for making nuclear. Power plants. Gold has unique characteristics that make it unique. Almost unique. Uses money so the government shouldn't be involved in this. In all, this is a radical thought. I know that's something that most people have even thought about. They'll say, oh, this is completely ridiculous off the wall. This is unrealistic. This is the direction that the country should be going, but it's going the opposite direction at an accelerating rate. So yeah, we're looking at a nasty depression and it's been building up for many years. This isn't a recent phenomenon that's come up just since Biden, although the Biden pieces are making it much worse.


Doug Casey (00:21:37) - This is a trend that's been building up slowly for decades.


Keith Weinhold (00:21:42) - With the government having all of that debt that I just mentioned, that would create the propensity for them to create even more dollars so they can pay back their own debt, which could create more inflation and just this perpetually vicious cycle. Doug and I are going to come back and talk more about where all this is headed. When you think about the profundity of some of these things, if our currency went on to a gold standard or a Bitcoin standard, the fact that the government would not even be involved in currency issuance anymore, as you think about that, Doug and I have more on the silent depression when we come back. This is Jeffrey situation. I'm your host, Keith Weintraub. Role under the specific expert with income property, you need Ridge Lending Group and MLS for 256. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four plex's.


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Speaker 4 (00:24:04) - This is Rich dad, sales advisor Blair Singer. Listen to get Rich education with Keith Winehouse. And above all, don't quit your day dream.


Keith Weinhold (00:24:22) - Welcome back to get Rich. And we're talking with Doug Casey, the international man, about the Greater Depression. That's really a silent depression as he sees it. And Doug, I want to know where you see us headed, because a lot of people see today unemployment under 4% in the United States, we have GDP growth that's decent. The rate of inflation is still higher than the fed target but has come down substantially. The Fed's even talking rate cuts this year. So where do you see this all headed with the silent depression.


Doug Casey (00:24:54) - First of all, it's a big mistake to trust the government's numbers. If you look at the way the government computed unemployment and the way it computed inflation back in 1980, it's very, very different from the way these numbers are computed today. And if you computed them the way they did way back when in 1980, you'd find that our current unemployment is something more on the order of 10%, and current inflation is not I don't know what they say.


Doug Casey (00:25:27) - It is not 2%, 3%, 4%. It's also more like 10% or more. But with the amount of money that they've created, I mean trillions of dollars that have been cranked out of Washington in recent years. I expect we're going to see inflation go back to much, much higher levels. There's no limit to how bad it can get. And since the government has promised all these things to various pressure groups in the US, they have to be paid. The taxes aren't there to do it. The borrowing they can't borrow anymore, especially as interest rates go up. And incidentally, I point out that because of the debasement of the currency, that's a better phrase to use than inflation. The basement of the currency is an actual thing that's done by the government and its central bank, whereas inflation people think, well, maybe inflation falls on the butcher or the baker or the gasoline maker. No it's not. Those people fight the effects of inflation. Inflation is something that comes out of Washington because the government has all these pressure groups that get all kinds of benefits.


Doug Casey (00:26:43) - They're going to have to keep printing up money to pay for these things, and you're going to wind up in the same position as Argentina has wound up. In fact, it's going to be worse because unlike Argentina, which doesn't have any foreign involvements, they had a war with the Falklands 40 years ago. But there's basically no Argentine Army. There's no Argentine Navy to speak of. But the US has 800 military bases scattered all over the world. They're very expensive to maintain. The natives aren't particularly happy to have foreign soldiers in their lands. In addition to the war in the Ukraine, why were involved in a border war between two countries is a mystery to me. And now we have Israel and Gaza dusting it up. Literally, I feel sorry for both sides, but on the other hand, I don't epoxide both their houses. It's not our problem. This has been going on between these people for 2000 years, and the US getting involved in it is going to add on to our ongoing bankruptcy and maybe start World War three.


Doug Casey (00:27:57) - There's new wars popping up all over the world that are going to cost us huge amounts of money. And of course, the Defense Department spends giant amounts of money building high tech toys, which are basically useless in today's military world. It goes on and on. It's a big problem, and I suspect we're going to reach a crescendo by the 2024 election, assuming we have one. I don't know who's going to win that election if had anybody, quite frankly. So it's we're looking at chaos, political chaos, economic chaos, the potential for a financial meltdown because the whole world is built upon a foundation of debt, which is a very unstable foundation to build things on. And of course, you've got all kinds of sociological problems, starting with total and absolute corruption of the US educational system, which is spread like poison throughout society. We're seeing that now, incidentally, with the presidents of Harvard and Penn, MIT, but all of the higher educational institutions in the US suffer from the same problem. This is like a many headed hydra.


Doug Casey (00:29:10) - Where are we going to take any one instance of a problem in society? And when we examine it, you find that it's even worse than you might think. Like I was talking about education. Your kids are being indoctrinated a great cost. I think it's the University of Michigan has 161. I believe that's the number for the University of Michigan D administrators. That's the diversity, equity and inclusion administrators. All are earning over six figures. And what are they doing? Well they're justifying their positions by doing absolutely ridiculous things in education that shouldn't be about educating as opposed to. Enforcing somebody's goofy ideas of diversity and equity and inclusion. So anyway, we've got lots of problems beyond real estate and beyond the high level of rent that people have to pay today. But listen, it's so hard to build a new house. God forbid, build a new apartment building today by the time you jump through all the hoops. Local. County. State. Federal. The cost of construction is probably twice what it should be.


Doug Casey (00:30:21) - Because of inflation. Because of regulations. I hate to be so gloomy, Keith, I do, but.


Keith Weinhold (00:30:28) - Well, there's a lot there. We talk about diversity. We're in an era where people are very conscious of that. But a lot of people think of it with regard to race or gender or perhaps religion. But I like to champion diversity of thought as well. And then when it comes to we.


Doug Casey (00:30:44) - Don't have any of that anymore.


Keith Weinhold (00:30:45) - Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. But when it comes back to the root of productivity, I think that's really important because whether the government gives away money to programs in the United States or outside the United States to Ukraine or Israel, whether you believe in that or not. And a lot of the giveaways have been in the hundreds of billions of dollars to those nations were now running a national debt of over $34 trillion. And my point is, is that the United States doesn't produce as much as they used to. However, the United States produces a lot of dollars and a lot of debt.


Keith Weinhold (00:31:17) - And when the government has giveaways, either domestically or internationally, a productive person is the one that has to end up paying for that. So, Doug, we think about a lot of the problems out here, much of it coming back to the root of inflation. But you tell us more about what can be done. In fact, I know you have a practical, common sense way where you don't save in dollars. You and I have talked before about how real estate or gold can give you a hedge or even help you profit against inflation, but you've talked about the importance of real material things, like food that you can store, or light bulbs that you can put away, or tools that you can use because you're also not taxed on those sorts of things. So can you tell us more about that?


Doug Casey (00:32:05) - There was a book written years ago, and it's still available on Amazon by an old friend of mine named John Pugsley, and the book's name was The Alpha Strategy. The point that John made in that book was that rather than trying to save in dollars, you should save in things that have a long shelf life that you're going to need and use.


Doug Casey (00:32:30) - So, for instance, if light bulbs common thing, they burn out if you wait until there's a sale on light bulbs. Get them cheap. Buy them in quantity, buy them extra cheap, put them aside. You're not going to have to buy a light bulb forever. Whereas if you don't plan ahead and do it that way. If your light bulb burns out, you don't have one. You got to get in your car or in gasoline. Buy it at the convenience store where it's going to cost you. License much, and you can do this with many areas of your life planning ahead. In other words, this is a variation, if you would on the old Mormon idea. A lot of people are aware that Mormons or their religion tells them that they should put aside three months or a year worth of food, and it's storing food which is properly canned and so forth, so that no matter what happens, they'll always be able to eat. Well, the alpha strategy is something that you take that attitude towards food and you apply it to all the consumable things that you have in life.


Doug Casey (00:33:37) - And as they go up in price, lightbulbs go up from $1 to $5. With inflation, if you made an investment that kept pace $1 to $5, you'd have to pay capital gains tax on it. But you don't on the consumable that you put aside. So, I mean, this is just one of a number of strategies that you can use to counter the effects of currency debasement.


Keith Weinhold (00:34:03) - I love that as a strategy on what you can do. You are not taxed on the gain in price or value of an entire pallet of food or tools, like a tractor or ladder or table saw. So it's a really elegant way to beat inflation. Doug, I have an idea, and it might not be one that you heard before. It might even make the listener laugh a little bit. Here. I have an elegant way to beat inflation and improve your quality of life at the same time. And it's something really simple. And that solution is to spend your money. It's an elegant way to beat inflation and improve your quality of life.


Keith Weinhold (00:34:41) - At the same time. If a mediterranean cruise for you and your wife is going to cost $18,000 this year, and you think it's going to cost $22,000 next year, spend beat inflation and get an experience that you'll never forget that as long as you've got something set aside already spend, it's a way to beat it and live a better life.


Doug Casey (00:35:01) - I can't argue with that case. But on the other hand, it's wise to put aside capital for the future, because once you consume that grows, the capital is not there anymore, and you may need it in the future. But this is one of the problems created by currency debasement. People start thinking in terms of live for today, because tomorrow we might die with their money, and that's not a good way to get wealthy. Although it's true, you do beat some of the effects of currency debasement that way.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:34) - Yeah, if there were no inflation, there would be less incentive to do something like that. In spend would also be less incentive to invest.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:41) - But Doug, you've given us a lot of good ideas today for this creeping of the silent depression fueled by inflation and some actionable things about what we can do about it. Give us any last thoughts and then how our audience can learn more about you.


Doug Casey (00:35:56) - I've written a series of novels. Well, they're quite well written that explain a lot of these principles in the form of an exciting story. They're called speculator, where our hero, uh, gets involved in gold mining in Africa and a bush war and so forth, and it becomes a drug lord. Or we show a drug lord can also be a good guy, and then he becomes an assassin because he's so pissed off. There are four more novels to come. So I suggest people go on Amazon, pick up those three novels that are out there. That's one thing they should do. Second thing, I'd encourage you to go and subscribe to International, and you'll get a great free daily blog from me and other people. It's really a good publication.


Doug Casey (00:36:44) - And the third thing on YouTube is we have Doug Cassie's take where once or twice a week I, uh, talk about different subjects.


Keith Weinhold (00:36:54) - Though our subject is depression, our conversation has not been thoroughly depressing. So thanks so much for coming back out of the show.


Doug Casey (00:37:02) - I see you again, Keith.


Keith Weinhold (00:37:10) - Well, you might wonder what kind of prepper weirdo is going to save a bunch of durable goods like tires or crescent wrenches, or even store an extra car, or a few extra cords of firewood that may or may not be feasible for you, some of it having to do with your storage capacity, whether you live urban or rural. But what you can do if you're really concerned about persistent inflation is to beat it by making improvements to your own home, and you can do that sooner rather than later. And see, that way you might actually get to enjoy the item and integrated into your lifestyle. For you, that might mean getting yourself new windows, or a new water heater, or renovating a bathroom, or remodeling the kitchen.


Keith Weinhold (00:38:03) - And if you can avoid activities, though, that create a higher tax assessment, then you will not get taxed on those real assets, all while improving your quality of life at the same time. So there's an idea, some real guidance, spurred from today's chat with Doug Casey. Big thanks to him. Next week, I'll tell you more about the weird problem with my rent payment that was stolen from my property manager and what I'm going to do about it. My manager says he's not taking the loss. I'm not taking the loss either. Interesting stuff. Until then, I'm your host, Keith Weintraub. Don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 5 (00:38:44) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively. The.


Speaker 6 (00:39:12) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building.


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Direct download: GREepisode485_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

Join our live, virtual event for Alabama income properties tomorrow at:

Learn a lesson from a story about when I was a landlord. My neighbor was a fourplex owner-occupant, just like me. We built a fence together. He told me that he can’t wait to get his building paid off.

Don’t pay down your mortgage debt. In most cases, you can invest those dollars elsewhere for a higher return.

I discuss two things build wealth: 1) Leverage. 2) Borrowing against your assets, tax-free.

You don’t have substantial equity in your properties because you paid them down. You have substantial equity because its value has appreciated.

Today, you can report tenant rent payments to the credit reporting agencies.

Alabama has low property prices and the nation’s 2nd-lowest property taxes.

GRE Investment Coach, Aundrea Newbern, MBA, joins me. 

Join our live event for Alabama income properties Tuesday, January 16th at 8 PM Eastern. The provider is offering 5.99% interest rates and 3% PM fees on your first three properties. Sign up now at:


The introduction (00:00:01)

Keith Weinhold introduces the podcast and mentions the topics to be covered, including lessons from being a landlord, a formula for wealth, and a focus on a lucrative property market.

Keith's early real estate experience (00:02:46)

Keith shares his early experience as a landlord, comparing notes with another landlord and discussing their strategies for living for free in their fourplexes.

Debt mindset and wealth building (00:05:30)

Keith discusses his divergent mindset from his fellow landlord, emphasizing the importance of leveraging debt for wealth building and portfolio expansion.

The power of leverage and portfolio growth (00:10:08)

Keith explains how he leveraged equity to expand his real estate portfolio, emphasizing the benefits of using accumulated equity to acquire more properties.

Real estate market diversification (00:11:22)

Keith advocates for buying properties across different states and markets to access better deals and maximize portfolio growth.

Tenant management and credit reporting (00:13:42)

Keith shares tips on tenant management, including the option to report rent payments to credit bureaus to incentivize timely payments and manage tenant relations.

Financial perspectives and real estate strategies (00:16:12)

Keith discusses contrasting financial perspectives with a CFO friend, highlighting the benefits of leveraging debt for real estate investments.

Market pulse and expense control (00:20:26)

Andrea discusses the market pulse for income properties, focusing on the Southeast region, and addresses the trends in controlling investors' expenses, particularly related to insurance rates.

Conclusion and invitation (00:22:02)

Keith and Andrea conclude the segment by discussing the migration trends in the Southeast and the importance of controlling expenses for real estate investors.

Lower Property Management Costs (00:22:55)

Discussion on the stabilization and decrease of property management costs due to technology and institutional investment money.

Investment Timing and Market Trends (00:25:01)

Encouragement for investors to take advantage of the current market conditions, including interest rates, prices, and inventory.

Alabama Market and Incentives (00:28:24)

Details about the Alabama market, including low property prices and incentives such as the 333 property management fee and 5.99% interest rate.

Live Event and Registration (00:32:33)

Information on how to register for the live virtual event to learn about the Alabama market and have questions answered in real time.

Final Encouragement and Event Promotion (00:33:27)

Encouragement to attend the live event to learn about the Alabama market and connect with an investment coach.

Resources mentioned:

Show Page:

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Complete episode transcript:


Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to Dr.. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, with lessons from being a landlord myself including some tough ones. A simple formula for how to get wealthy and stay wealthy without paying any taxes legally. Then we focus on one of the most lucrative property markets in the United States, and it includes an invitation to you today on get Rich education. If you like the get Rich education podcast, you're going to love art. Don't quit your day dream newsletter. No, I here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free. Sign up at get Rich It's real content that makes a real difference in your life, spiced with a dash of humor. Rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting gray to 66866. Text gray to 66866.


Speaker 2 (00:01:12) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world.


Speaker 2 (00:01:19) - This is get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:01:28) - Welcome to GRE! From Dorchester, Massachusetts, to Westchester, Pennsylvania, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold. Hold in your listening to get Rich education. I trust that you're prosperous and well in a still somewhat new year here, along with my usual gray research of market trends, teams, and properties I've been serving on and writing for the Forbes Real Estate Council. Next week we have a thought provoking show on whether America is actually undergoing a silent depression that's creeping up on us, but I've got an important story to tell you today. It's really rather formative and foundational to the, I suppose, mind spring of abundantly minded real estate ideation. When I bought my first Seminole fourplex building for $295,000 about 20 years ago, you know, there was an identical fourplex right next to it. It was bought about the same time as mine, and it was bought by another guy about my age. His name's Patrick. We each had these blue fourplex next to each other, and I still remember his full name, although I'll just stick with his first name, Patrick here.


Speaker 1 (00:02:46) - He was a data and security engineer. Really sharp guy. And by the way, he only paid 275 K for his nearly identical fourplex next to mine. And since I paid 295, I felt like I overpaid. But he and I, we got to know each other a little bit. We kind of had a similar path. All right, as owner occupants, each living in one of our four units and renting out the other three and doing that right next to each other. We would compare notes as to how it was going with being an on site landlord. And, you know, Patrick and I, we both kind of figured out that we were living for free. And that's because the three $725 rent incomes, there were enough to pay our mortgages and our operating expenses on the buildings, but after that, there was really nothing left over. But we effectively had a free place to live in one of the fourplex units. Now, a few times, Patrick and I collaborated on some projects together to improve things around our contiguous fourplex buildings, and I specifically remember that one day we had bought materials at Home Depot, and then we met outside to build a fence together, and it was just this cheap host and rail style fence that we made with two by fours and painted blue is something that he and I built at the back of our buildings in order to keep vagrants from cutting through our yards.


Speaker 1 (00:04:19) - This was in Anchorage, Alaska, and Anchorage has a lot of these paved bike paths all throughout the city. And vagrants also use those to get around. And we had this bike path right behind our fourplex. Now, as you know, I am not that good at building stuff or fixing broken stuff. Okay, but this fence project that we were doing, it wasn't too complicated. And I had Patrick right there to help. Now, by this time, I had probably owned the fourplex for about two years, and I was really just starting to get this realization for what real estate investing could do for me, because I had only made a small down payment, yet the fourplex had appreciated quite a bit. This was around 2005, and I didn't even know that that effect was called leverage yet. But anyway, Patrick and I, as we're building this fence together or talking about our properties, he said one thing I can distinctly remember, and it's something that a lot of people say, and that is, I can't wait until I have this property paid off.


Speaker 1 (00:05:30) - Now, back at this time, there was no gray, yet I'm still rather fresh and new to real estate investing. This fourplex was the only property that I owned, but already this desire to have the property paid off, that is not a feeling I shared that did not resonate with me. Okay, I responded to him with something like, oh, do you think that's the best use of your money? All right, because I had a mortgage interest rate of five and 3/8 at the time, and his was probably pretty close to that too. Well, I told him that I want to keep the debt on my property because instead I could invest my spare dollars elsewhere and get a better return than five and 3/8. And that fact would be true even if my interest rate were eight or more. Really, his only reply to that is that he just simply doesn't like having debt. That's about the only answer that he had, even though it's usually irrational to. Pay off good debt like that. Now my financial freedom ideas, they were still in their nascent period back then.


Speaker 1 (00:06:34) - I sure wasn't going around and saying that financially free beats debt free or anything like that. That wasn't quite putting it that way yet. I sure didn't say, hey, don't you know that the scarcity mentality is abundant and the abundance mentality is scarce? Or that compound interest is weak in compound leverage is powerful? Or that a rich man digs for gold and a poor man is concerned with the cost of a shovel. But I already knew that if you focus on debt paydown like taking all your extra dollars to accelerate the principal pay down on, just say one fourplex building, you are just borrowing one deep hole in to the property. It's like a deep hole that might even cave in. Instead, wealth is built by expanding your portfolio size. More doors, more income, more leverage, serving more people with housing, and actually more safety because you can be in more markets that way. See, you gotta give your money multiple jobs. So the lesson is, Patrick and I were already on divergent mindset paths because by that time I had read books like Rich dad, Poor Dad, and it got me thinking differently.


Speaker 1 (00:07:54) - You know, it was the whole don't get your money to work for you get other people's money to work for you and that whole thing.


Speaker 3 (00:07:59) - I don't even think about it. I'm built a little differently, I guess, because I have had people come up to me and say, how do you do it, sir? How do you do it? I don't even think about it.


Speaker 1 (00:08:10) - Nuh uh. Geez. I, I do it because if you don't want to run with the herd, then you've got to think and act differently in order to diverge from the herd. Keep leveraging more income property. So Patrick and I built the fence that day, and I don't really know how much he paid down his building's principal balance, which is a lot like sending off your dollars to go die. But I can tell you what I did. Okay. About another year went by after building the fence. So now we're into year three of me owning the fourplex. What I did is I kept the building, but I got a home equity line of credit, second mortgage on the fourplex, and then I use those funds to make a down payment on a single family home so that I could live offsite and get some privacy from my fourplex tenants.


Speaker 1 (00:09:06) - So this is the start of me acting diversely from the herd. It was the opposite of paying down my property, borrowing against it instead. Yeah, I took more debt out on it, which is a tax free event, by the way, and you could go to 90% loan to value back then. Yes, that's back when dollars were being lent out more freely. I mean, that's what wealthy people do. What do wealthy people do when they need money? They just keep borrowing against the value of their assets. And it's a tax free event since the IRS does not tax debt. So if you want to be wealthy, that's what you do. What I also did by doing this was expand my portfolio size, increase my leverage ratio. And since I vacated one of the four fourplex units, now I had four rent incomes rather than three. I mean, that is, some don't live below your means grow. You mean stuff right there. And then two years after that, I kind of did the same thing again.


Speaker 1 (00:10:08) - I borrowed against my properties, and I used the funds as a 10% down payment on a second, more expensive fourplex building. So now I lived in a single family home and I had to fourplex buildings. And then a few years later, when equity accumulated in those two fourplex buildings, I sold them and did a 1031 exchange into two larger apartment buildings. Everything I've done so far is tax free, all expanding the portfolio, all serving more tenants, all reducing my risk despite increasing my debt, because the tenant pays the debt for me. And it was all with almost none of my own money. Instead, it's just using accumulated equity from one property and rolling it into more. Just keep rolling those same funds forward. Okay, so that is all what I'll call one line of leveraged equity. And by then I was beginning other lines because I started to buy property out of state and in multiple states. And it wasn't until 2012 that I discovered that buying across state lines is possible. It's proven. And that's where the real deals are.


Speaker 1 (00:11:22) - I mean, you might want to own some properties in your local market or you might not. But see, the thing is, is that there are 387 MSAs, Metropolitan statistical areas in the US as defined by the Census Bureau. So if you're only buying in your local market, chances are you're not getting the best deals. And another way to think about your portfolio's growth in your real estate equity management is to consider the fact that you don't have substantial equity in your home right now because you paid it down. You have equity in your home because it increased in value. So you can use equity from your home to buy perhaps ten other rental homes, as long as you can control cash flow. So it's about trading away antiquated notions of safety and security in exchange for freedom. But now most of Patrick and I's conversation about being neighboring fourplex landlords for a few years was, I would say, more anthropogenic meaning relating to human activity. Yes, that is dealing with tenants because although the discipline is called property management, it could just as well be called tenant management.


Speaker 1 (00:12:39) - And early on, this is where my naivete got exposed, like with a tenant that was laid on the rent and he said he'd pay it, but then he didn't pay rent and I had to a victim early on. I inherited that tenant from the previous owner, so I did not get to screen him. Now, three weeks ago here on our Christmas episode, when we did How the Rent Stole Christmas. That was fun. I shared a lot of my tenant relations tips with you on how to help ensure that your rent gets paid, but today you can do something that you couldn't do when I got started in real estate, you can report your tenants rent payments to the credit reporting agencies and affect their credit score. So if you are a do it yourself landlord today and you're doing your screening, you know, I would tell prospective tenants that before they even apply for your vacancy and put it in a positive light, make it known that one attribute of renting from you is that with their timely rent payments, it can help their credit score.


Speaker 1 (00:13:42) - So position it positively rather than any sort of threat, and it's going to help you get more timely rent payments if that's been a problem for you. Yes. Institute reporting to the credit bureaus, the credit scoring agencies, Equifax, Experian and TransUnion. That is another handle that you have as a landlord today. Yes. The only guarantee is that there will be some inevitable real estate problems for you. But like problems with anything else in life, your mind and my mind, we tend to inflate the significance of problems, whether it's a tenant that you just can't get to change their AC filters, or an unexpected water leak, or an overgrown tree that you have to pay an arborist to handle, or a persistently late paying tenant. Oftentimes, your fear about the problem is worse than the problem itself. In fact, it was the stoic philosopher Seneca that said, there are more things likely to frighten us than there are to crush us. We suffer more often in imagination than in reality. Gosh, isn't that so? On point? Yeah, we suffer more in imagination than we do in reality.


Speaker 1 (00:15:01) - You can say that about most any problem that you've ever had in your life. Now, some things have changed and some things have stayed the same since I began my real estate journey with that blue Anchorage fourplex. It looks like there are some signs of hope for financial education in the near future here. Formal financial education. When it was recently announced that Pennsylvania, my native state, will become the 25th US state to have a formal, standalone financial education class in high school. Hey, that's a really good start. But one constant seems to be that the dispiriting saying don't live below your means. You know, that still seems to trump the aspirational grow your means. And it's not about whether a person is intelligent or unintelligent in adopting one or the other. It's really more about having the ability to think freely. Now, today, I have a friend that's the chief financial officer, the CFO of a publicly traded corporation. He and I got together a few times last year, and he can talk about earnings reports and EBITDA.


Speaker 1 (00:16:12) - And he knows that language of business. He's a super sharp guy. But he told me that he has his house, his family's primary residence paid off. And I asked him about that, and I told him that I keep the maximum debt on mine. And why now? Your primary residence. It's not like a fourplex where your tenant pays your debt for you, but you've got to pay your own debt on your own home. Yet the mortgage rate on a primary residence is lower than it is on a rental. So the question persists is that really the best place to park your dollar? Is that where it's doing multiple jobs? You've got to consider that it's illiquid and its ROI is zero. Now, I didn't quite put it that starkly with my CFO friend, but in any case, and remember, this is a chief financial officer. He's a guy that's good with money. You know, at least he did give me this. He said from a financial perspective, he knows that it makes zero sense to have a paid off home.


Speaker 1 (00:17:16) - It just makes him feel better. And, you know, I accepted that this is not the way that I view the world. And that's okay. Coming up next in in-house chat with one of our gray investment coaches as we talk about the real estate market overall, controlling your rising expenses as a real estate investor and about real estate in the southeast Alabama, as well as an invitation for you with some pretty generous incentives that I think you're going to be excited about. I'm Keith Reinhold, you're listening to get Rich education. Role under the specific expert with income property you need. Ridge lending Group Nmls 42056. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four Plex's. Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge personally. They'll even customize a plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Ridge lending You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%.


Speaker 1 (00:18:45) - Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains and your W-2 jobs income. They've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, six eight, six, six.


Speaker 4 (00:19:34) - This is our rich dad, Poor dad author Robert Kiyosaki. Listen to get rich education with eat whine oh God put your daddy.


Speaker UU (00:19:45) - You you you you you you you you.


Speaker 1 (00:19:53) - Hey. Well, today I'd like to welcome you in our terrific investment coach, Andrea, for an in-house chat here. How's it going, Andrea?


Speaker 5 (00:20:01) - Hey, Keith.


Speaker 5 (00:20:02) - Doing good. Trying to recover from the holidays. How are you?


Speaker 1 (00:20:05) - Yeah, it's still a fairly new year here. The holidays were a few weeks ago with the advent of a new year. Andrea, a lot of people make a resolution to increase the residual income, often by expanding the real estate portfolio. So really just taking the temperature here. How's your feel about the pulse of today's income property market?


Speaker 5 (00:20:26) - It's been interesting the past year, right? We've had a lot of ups and downs. I would say what we've typically seen from the different markets across the US, particularly the southeast, which is what we're going to talk about a little bit more today. We have seen that there's still inventory out there right now. We've seen interest rates slightly go down, not significantly, but we have seen some decreases. And we're seeing pretty steady demand for income properties right now.


Speaker 1 (00:20:49) - Yeah. Mortgage interest rates down more than 1% from their peak in October last year. Yeah. Oftentimes real estate and the pulse of the market comes down to supply and demand.


Speaker 1 (00:21:00) - To your point the demand sure is not going away. We've got a population growth, and we have a lot of pent up demand from the huge millennial cohort. And then over there on the supply side, there is so much new building in the multifamily space, but there's really a dearth of supply and a dearth of new supply coming onto the market for 1 to 4 unit properties.


Speaker 5 (00:21:23) - Yes, there is. And we're seeing a lot of that growth, like I mentioned in the southeast, which are the markets that I personally invest in. And I, you know, have a lot of our listeners go to to purchase as well. So very excited about what we're seeing happen in 2024 and what that means for our investors.


Speaker 1 (00:21:38) - Yeah. Now, back at the beginning of the year, two prominent moving companies, U-Haul and United Van Lines, they released their migration report for the year ended last year. And the southeast quadrant of the nation by far, that had the most net migration growth states in their list easily.


Speaker 5 (00:21:58) - It did. And I think that's going to continue. We're going to talk about that a little bit.


Speaker 1 (00:22:02) - Well, we pull back in. Just think nationally before we go into the southeast. You know, oftentimes investors of course are thinking about controlling their expenses. That's been a big issue that bubbled up last year is probably going to continue to be one this year. So we're talking about investors controlling their expense side from mortgage rates to property insurance rates that have really spiked. So do you notice any trends with controlling investors expense side? Since you and I are active investors ourselves?


Speaker 5 (00:22:34) - A couple of things that I've noticed in the southeast and my personal investments, as well as some of the markets that we have turnkey relationships with. Keith, we are seeing insurance continue to go up just a little bit, but we're not seeing those reckless, you know, doubling that we saw over the last 2 to 3 years. So it's going up not seeing doubling. So I'm hopeful that that continues. And it's not we're not seeing that fast rapid increase.


Speaker 5 (00:22:55) - The other thing that we're seeing a lot of is a lot of our turnkey companies that we work with, we're starting to see kind of property management costs stabilize or go down in certain areas. So we're seeing that expense decrease. The other thing is we're not seeing as rapid of increases and material costs and labor costs right now still going up. Things are not, you know, going down by any means, but we're not seeing those costs go up as much either. So this is allowing the investors to have a little bit more money in their pocket than they did over the last 2 to 3 years during the pandemic.


Speaker 1 (00:23:25) - Yeah, it's not that big of a consideration for an investor on the expense side. But yes, I do see more evidence of lower property management costs. So can you talk to us more about that trend? Is it more of the infiltration of technology into the space that's bringing the cost down for property management?


Speaker 5 (00:23:44) - Such a great question. And I do think that is part of it for sure.


Speaker 5 (00:23:47) - We're seeing a couple of things here. We're seeing some of these smaller kind of mom and pop property management companies. They are stepping out. They can't really afford to keep up with the technology and all the changes that are happening in the property management space, and what's causing that happen is these property management companies that can do a little bit larger scale. They're able to get these nicer systems and this better technology and things for their investors to be able to use as well as their tenants. And we are seeing that bring the cost down of property management a little bit.


Speaker 1 (00:24:16) - You're seeing more infiltration of institutional investment money into the single family rental space and rentals up to $4 per unit. And those companies, those institutional investors have deep pockets, and they have the ability to go ahead and implement a lot of these technology systems. So that's making it so that others, including these smaller mom and pop property management companies, they need to keep up with their technology that's lowering property management costs across these mom and pop property managers are going to be put out of business.


Speaker 1 (00:24:48) - So there are so many pros and cons about institutional investment money coming into the space. And that's just one of the potential pros for everyday investors.


Speaker 5 (00:24:57) - You're exactly right. I have nothing to add to that because you were spot on with that comment.


Speaker 1 (00:25:01) - Anything else, just in general that you see across the real estate market that you really think a real estate investor needs to know today?


Speaker 5 (00:25:08) - One thing that I really think is important for people to keep in the back of their minds is I talked to a lot of our listeners who are very, very interested in dipping their toes in the water, or they've been kind of sitting to the side the last few months, kind of seeing what will happen with the market. Right now is the time for you to invest. If you wait a few months, I suspect in several of these markets you may see interest rates come down, but you're going to see prices go up and you're going to see even more of a lack of inventory. So just kind of keep that in mind as you're thinking about where to invest, how to invest and when to invest.


Speaker 1 (00:25:38) - Here in gray. We've often talked about the fact that higher mortgage interest rates actually correlate with higher prices, not lower ones. And I think some people were sitting on the sidelines saying, is that really going to be the case? Yeah, we saw mortgage interest rates triple and prices still went up. A lot of people think rates are poised to fall this year. It's probably going to put more upward pressure on prices. Andrea, when we talk about one controlling their expense side, I think something that a lot of people overlook, and this is so simple, is buying in a state or buying in a market that simply has low property prices, because that's the best indicator of giving you a high ratio of rent income to purchase price. Low priced states.


Speaker 5 (00:26:23) - That's right. Yeah. And so I mentioned this in the last couple of minutes. But the southeast and the Midwest are those two areas where you really do have those lower cost properties that even if you're an entry level investor, you can get in there pretty easily.


Speaker 1 (00:26:36) - And now we've had a lot of investor interest in Florida with all their in-migration. We still like that market, but prices have really run up there. So we've increasingly had investor interest from our followers and people that you help coach about another southeastern state.


Speaker 5 (00:26:52) - That's right. So that market is Alabama. So we have had a provider that has been offering turnkey, fully renovated properties and sometimes new construction in the Alabama market. And it has been an absolute wonderful market for our listeners that have actually invested in that area.


Speaker 1 (00:27:09) - Alabama, compared to a place like Florida, has substantially lower property prices. We're talking about you as an investor here controlling the expense side. Alabama has the second lowest property taxes in the entire nation, second only to Hawaii. So that's something that's really baked into your recipe here with income property in Alabama.


Speaker 5 (00:27:32) - That's right. I mean, there's been increases in property taxes across the US over the last few years as values come up. But of course, in Alabama you haven't seen those fast rises.


Speaker 5 (00:27:42) - And because the rates are so low, it's going to adjust kind of accordingly with the market. So you're not going to see anything creep up really quickly there as well.


Speaker 1 (00:27:49) - In general. And a lot of jurisdictions you see property taxes increase commensurately with the value of your property. And we've been in Alabama with a really renowned provider there that provides property almost statewide across Alabama, and you're going to co-host with them on a great live event for Alabama Income Properties, because right now they're really offering a good set of incentives and they have available properties. So tell us more about that.


Speaker 5 (00:28:24) - Like you mentioned, they have properties across the state. So you have kind of an option of which geography within Alabama that you would want to invest in. They have different kind of price points as well. And then like you mentioned, they have some very exciting incentives. And I don't think that I have seen an incentive this good as far as property management goes in a really long time. So what they are offering our listeners is called the 333.


Speaker 5 (00:28:50) - And essentially what this is, is if an investor wants to purchase up to three properties, you can purchase one, 2 or 3. You're not committed to a certain number. You're going to get a 3% property management fee for three years on these three properties. Once you go over three, it does revert back to the normal price of 9% for the property management that you can get 3%, which is kind of crazy.


Speaker 1 (00:29:11) - So the incentive offered on this great live event that you're going to co-host tomorrow night is that three, three, three incentive. Let me just review it so that we have it right for a limited time. There's going to be a 3% property management fee for three years on up to three properties.


Speaker 5 (00:29:29) - That's exactly right. Yep.


Speaker 1 (00:29:31) - That is really attractive when it comes to controlling the investors expense side.


Speaker 5 (00:29:36) - It certainly is. That's not the only incentive they have, though. So they're also offering across their entire inventory, 5.99% interest rate on the purchases of any of these properties. And that's really low.


Speaker 1 (00:29:48) - That is really compelling. Yes. So that's substantially lower even than what you can get for an income property rate today. Income property rates are typically, oh, something like three quarters of 1% higher than what you typically see on that 30 year fixed rate mortgage. And that's what we're talking about here. This builder and provider buying down your mortgage rate for you to 5.99% interest. Do you know about the terms on that. Is that 30 year fixed advertising or.


Speaker 5 (00:30:14) - Yes, that is 30 year fixed amortizing. So you're not looking at anything variable. You're looking at kind of your mortgage payment every single month, which is really nice.


Speaker 1 (00:30:22) - Yeah. That's like rolling back the clock to to three years with getting a mortgage rate like that. That's going to help a number of people. Andrea, I'd like to get your thoughts. Do you have very many people that you work with? Here are followers when you're coaching that want to self-manage remotely or do they want that remote property manager?


Speaker 5 (00:30:41) - I don't think in the past year I've spoken with one investor that plan to actually purchase and manage themselves remotely.


Speaker 5 (00:30:47) - Everyone wants to use the property management function, which this particular provider does have property management in house.


Speaker 1 (00:30:55) - So they will want to use that 3% property management fee. Not being a do it yourself or, you know, they're probably taking after me. I don't want the job of property management. That's just a business. I don't really want to have that much to do with. I love to outsource that duty to somebody else. A big reason that a lot of people self-manage their property is because they just don't have that much of a gap between their income and their expenses. So when you buy in an investor advantaged market like Alabama, where you have a high ratio of rent income to purchase price, you can therefore have one of those expenses. Be your property manager, especially when it's only 3% in this case. So those are some really good incentives. The three, three, three and a 5.99% interest rate. Is there anything else you can tell us, especially with on tomorrow night's live event with what markets within Alabama we're going to be talking about?


Speaker 5 (00:31:44) - Yeah.


Speaker 5 (00:31:45) - So we're going to focus on a couple different markets. We're going to look at Huntsville as well as Birmingham. We may also talk about some markets that are in the southeast that they have some properties in outside of Alabama. So just stay tuned. I'm not promising that. But we may talk about that a little bit depending on how things go. The other thing that I think is really important to keep in mind is we're going to have a live buying opportunity. So we're actually going to show you some of the properties that are available right now. You're going to be able to see all the financials on them. And you can reserve them as soon as you want right after we get off. While we're on it, however you want to do it, we can buy it tomorrow.


Speaker 1 (00:32:18) - That is a really actionable event. Tell us more about the event, how one can register and be on there with you so that they can have their questions answered by you and the provider in real time. That's really the benefit of you attending tomorrow.


Speaker 5 (00:32:33) - You can go out to GR webinars. Com you'll be able to register there. It'll be at the very top of the page. Make sure that you know you fill in all of your information. You'll get an automatic email that'll remind you to get on to the webinar tomorrow, and you can jump on. You're going to have the opportunity to ask live questions. So we're going to be there to answer them. And then we'll go through the properties. And if you're ready to reserve, I can hop on a call with you right after we get off of the webinar and kind of talk through what inventory that we have available and help you through that process.


Speaker 1 (00:33:03) - Well, Andrew, before I ask you if you have any last thoughts, just summing it up here. I really encourage you, the listener, to join the live virtual event because you can see real properties like Andrea mentioned in an Investor Advantage market and get any questions answered that you have answered in real time, whether it's about the cash flow or property insurance costs or your property manager.


Speaker 1 (00:33:27) - It's Grace live event for Alabama Income Properties tomorrow, the 16th at 8 p.m. eastern. So go ahead and sign up right away at Grace Any last thoughts? Andrea?


Speaker 5 (00:33:39) - No, I'm just excited to see more faces, see old faces and talk to you all about the market and the properties that are available.


Speaker 1 (00:33:46) - This is really going to help a lot of people. Thank so much for coming back onto the show.


Speaker 5 (00:33:49) - Thank you.


Speaker 1 (00:33:56) - Yeah. Here's an opportunity for you to learn about a market and connect with Andrea. Of course, when we talk about the Alabama real estate market, that entails many market varieties and geographies. In fact, Alabama has 12 of the nation's 387 MSAs. I very much encourage you to attend the live event from the comfort of your home. It's for you if you want to learn about a market and really the fundamentals that drive investor advantage markets, you can meet Andrea and perhaps add some property to your portfolio. It can give you long term equity growth and short term cash flow.


Speaker 1 (00:34:34) - And I have actually been inside walked Alabama properties with this provider. And it is exactly what they do. This isn't some side venture. And they've been in business a long time too. They serve out of area investors and they do the management for you too. This is Grace live event for Alabama income, property and overall in America, entry level homes are few. You're going to have a chance to own scarce assets that seemingly everyone is going to want over time. It's coming up fast. It's tomorrow night, the 16th at 8 p.m. eastern. Sign up now! It is free at Grace Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 6 (00:35:23) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 7 (00:35:51) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich

Direct download: GREepisode484_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

Yes, simply "five". The number "5" has remarkable symbolism on both real estate investing the GRE way, and elsewhere in your life pathway.

See how real estate actually performed when compared to other asset classes in the past year: stocks, gold, bitcoin, and bonds.

Everyone knows that some commercial real estate is sagging, like office. Industrial is steady. Retail is actually booming.

Recession predictions were so bad. In the past year, we had low unemployment, rising GDP, solid corporate profits, and inflation fell. 

I explain what an inverted yield curve means and why it matters to you.

Not only does “Real Estate Pay 5 Ways”, but the number “five” often has significance in both symbolism and numerology.

Using a $40K down payment on a $200K property, I add up how “Real Estate Pays 5 Ways” and sum a lofty 46% total rate of return with today’s real-life numbers. 

We have available inventory of income property. If you’re ready to buy, contact our Investment Coaches. It’s free at

GRE Marketplace properties are less expensive because: there’s no agent to compensate, selective investor-advantaged markets, and not dealing with owner-occupant emotions.


Asset Class Performance (00:01:25)

Comparison of various asset class performances in the past year, including stocks, global stock markets, bitcoin, treasury notes, gold, and residential real estate.

Inverted Yield Curve Explanation (00:07:47)

Explanation of an inverted yield curve, its significance as a predictor of economic downturn, and a simplified example to illustrate the concept.

Five Ways Real Estate Pays (00:12:18)

Discussion of the five ways real estate provides returns to investors: appreciation, cash flow, return on amortization, tax benefits, and inflation profiting, with a focus on the symbolic significance of the number five.

Real Estate Returns Calculation (00:18:49)

Illustration of a simplified method to calculate the total return on investment from a real estate property, covering appreciation, cash flow, return on amortization, tax benefits, and inflation profiting.

Investment Opportunities (00:16:23)

Promotion of investment opportunities with Ridge Lending Group and Freedom Family Investments, emphasizing the potential returns and benefits of investing with them.

Upcoming Episodes and Conclusion (00:17:44)

Teaser for upcoming episodes featuring investment coaches and discussions on property tax, and a conclusion expressing the significance of real estate returns and investment.

Replacing Toilet Flappers and Spackle (00:23:56)

Discussion on conservative estimates, tax benefits, and property management costs in real estate investment.

Visual Explanation of Five Ways (00:25:09)

Explanation of the five ways real estate pays returns and the simplicity of real estate math.

Introduction to Get Rich Education (00:26:17)

Overview of Get Rich Education's history, team, and independent voice in the market.

Real Estate Market Inventory (00:28:40)

Discussion on the slowing real estate market, available inventory at GRE marketplace, and the importance of free coaching.

Ethical Use of Other People's Money (00:29:51)

Explanation of the formula for starting or growing a portfolio of buy-and-hold properties, emphasizing the use of a small down payment.

Benefits of Off-Market Properties (00:31:13)

Explanation of competitive off-market property prices and the advantages of buying direct, investor advantage markets, and property management solutions.

Safeguards in Property Purchase (00:33:57)

Importance of property inspection, lender appraisal, and independent third-party property inspection in property purchase.

Free Coaching and Financial Readiness (00:35:03)

Emphasis on the free coaching at GRE marketplace, the absence of upselling to paid courses, and the importance of financial readiness before investing.

Disclaimer and Host Information (00:36:05)

Disclaimer regarding the content of the show and information about the host operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. 

You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—

text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


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Complete episode transcript:


Speaker 1 (00:00:00) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. I compare real estate to how other asset classes have performed. Give you a simple example to help you understand an inverted yield curve. Describe the significance of the five in your life. Then help find a match with the right income property for you today and Get Rich Education. If you like the Get Rich Education podcast, you're going to love art. Don't quit your day dream newsletter. No, I here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free! Sign up and get rich It's real content that makes a real difference in your life, spiced with a dash of humor rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting gray to 66866. Text gray to 66866.


Speaker 2 (00:01:09) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world.


Speaker 2 (00:01:16) - This is get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:01:25) - Welcome to GRE. From Johannesburg, South Africa, to Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold and you're listening to Get Rich Education. This is where your educational major is real estate investing. And your minors are in real estate economics and wealth mindset. That's what we do here. It all culminates with your doctorate in financial freedom. Before we talk about real estate, we recently had a year that just ended. And to know their real estate is the right place for you long term at times, especially after a year ends, we need to compare that to other asset classes. So what actually happened last year? Elsewhere in the investing world? Stocks, the S&P 500 was up 25%, even though for most of it invest in stocks, you're only paid one way, not five ways, but still 25%. That's a pretty healthy return on tech companies accounted for most of the gains, yes, what they call the Magnificent Seven that is putting the team on its back.


Speaker 1 (00:02:33) - Yeah, these are the seven tech mega caps Microsoft, Apple, alphabet, Nvidia, Tesla, meta and Amazon. They surged more than 75% last year, while the other 493 companies in the S&P 500 have gained just 12%. Yes, the Magnificent Seven now accounts for nearly 30% of the index's entire value. That's per the Wall Street Journal. And speaking of the S&P 500, it just added a prominent new member a few weeks ago, and that is Uber zooming outside, the United States, global stock markets had their best year since 2019. Bitcoin was up 157%. Yes, you heard that right. 157 as the crypto winter thawed out last year, the yield on the ten year Treasury note was up just eight basis points. That's virtually unchanged. Very little movement. And see, that's also why mortgage rates ended the year at the same level they started at, which is near 6.5%. That is because mortgage rates track that ten year note. Gold was up 11%. And here in residential real estate it was up 4%.


Speaker 1 (00:03:51) - That's on the median price of existing homes. But it's only through November, not the full calendar year. Yes, real estate is such a laggard with reporting statistics. So almost everywhere y'all look prices are up up, up. Yes. It's not just for those essentials on your last grocery store run where they're up okay. The value of your assets fortunately is up too. And really, one of the few places that pain was felt was in the commercial real estate market. I think you know that. But let me tell you how that pain is positioned to get even worse shortly here. All right. U.S. office vacancy rates hovered around 20% last year. Now, that's a rate that was actually worse than during the 2008 financial crisis. More companies told workers, hey, get back to your desk, okay? Calling workers back to the office at Salesforce, Amazon, Blackrock. But still, card swipe data in America showed that only about half as many people are making the trip into the office compared to pre-pandemic numbers.


Speaker 1 (00:05:03) - And you've got some companies like meta, the parent of Facebook and Instagram, they're getting creative and actually subleasing their office space to other tenants. But not all commercial real estate is struggling. The retail vacancy rate fell to just 4.8% last year. Retail is not dead, and that retail vacancy rate, that is actually the lowest in 18 years since the real estate firm CBRE started tracking it. And big box stores and malls, shockingly, are. So back. There's also a big real estate demand for warehouses, data centers and industrial space, thanks to the recent surge of AI and that pandemic induced e-commerce boom. But we probably haven't seen the worst of it yet because, okay, within the next four years, about two thirds of commercial real estate loans will likely be refinanced, with interest rates much higher than they were the first time around. The last thing that we have to recap for you that we learned from last year is all of those god awful, dreadfully wrong predictions. A recession. So many predictions were so wrong.


Speaker 1 (00:06:27) - Instead, we had historically low unemployment and solid corporate profits. Inflation fell. Now there is one prominent financial media platform, one of the nation's biggest. I won't mention their name, though you've surely heard of them. This agency gave zero room for any other outcome because they predicted a 100% chance of a recession last year. 100%. All right. They really look wrong. Although let's be mindful, technically, due to a statistical lag, we often don't know if we are in a recession until after the fact. But if you think that we were late last year, understand though, not absolutely everyone was a Debbie Downer, say back in late 2022, let's give some credit where it's due. Moody's Analytics chief economist Mark Zandi, he was one of the few experts who kept the faith for a soft landing. He pointed out the recessions typically come out of the blue, and that there was a good chance the fed would get inflation under control without taking the economy. Now, one condition that a lot of people pointed to saying that a recession should be here by now, is that dreaded condition that you probably heard of? Maybe.


Speaker 1 (00:07:47) - Maybe not. But that is known as an inverted yield curve, which is deemed as a harbinger of bad things to come, usually recession. Okay, now that phenomenon inverted yield curve. That sounds intimidating. I think when you hear that. Okay. And what that means in inverted yield curve is that the interest rate on long term bonds is lower than the interest rate on short term bonds. And that that right there is what's often a bad sign for the economy. Now, if what I just said right there kind of makes you scratch your head and say to yourself, what was all that gobbledygook again? And why does it matter? Why don't I give you a simple example of an inverted yield curve? Then you can actually remember. What I'll do is make this personal to you. A bond is just a fancy name for a loan. Let's say that you need a loan for $10,000, and you've got this great friend, a lifelong and trusted friend, and he will let you borrow the money from him.


Speaker 1 (00:08:56) - Now, if you take out the loan and tell him that you'll pay him back as quickly as next week, which is our short term bond. In this example where your friend might not charge you any interest on the loan at all, then just say that he wanted you to pay him a small 1% interest rate. Okay, see, your rate is low because there's not that much risk for him since you'll pay him back next week. That's not too long for him to wait. But say that you want to take the same $10,000 loan from that friend, but you're going to pay him back for ten years. An entire decade? Well, for him to want to make you that loan, he's going to need to get compensated more with a higher interest rate for the heightened risk in that long payback period. Okay, what if you move or if you aren't even alive in ten years? All right. That entails more risk for him, the lender. So therefore your loan comes with a 10% interest rate that you've got to pay your friend.


Speaker 1 (00:09:57) - This is analogous to the long term bond. All right right there I've just explained the normal yield curve condition right there. That's normal. The longer someone lends money out for to you, the more that they must get compensated. And that should make sense to you that that is a normal world. One week was 1% interest, one decade was 10% interest that you'd have to pay. That's normal. However, in inverted yield, curve simply flips that normal world upside down. It inverts it. It's the opposite of the arrangement that I just described with your friend. So this is where the shorter duration that one makes a loan for the higher interest rate they're compensated with. See, that's a weird world. That's an inverted yield curve. Because if your friend thinks that the world is going to crash soon with a recession or a depression, or Earth gets hit with an asteroid soon, well, then he'd want high compensation, even on a short term, week long loan, because freakish things are happening. And that's an inverted yield curve.


Speaker 1 (00:11:10) - And that's why having one like we have recently signals something dire, like a recession coming to many. Now, at the top of the show, I talked about the returns of various asset. Over the past year. Of course, that is only in terms of capital appreciation. That's all that most investors think about simply, did it go up or did it go down? It's an important question, but around here we know that real estate is a special asset class because when it's bought, right, it can pay you five ways at the same time. When it comes to the numbers, that number five, that is symbolic of why we do what we do here at gray. So let me talk about really, the existential and symbolic virtues that resonate with you across your life and the meaning behind that special number five. And it's about more than our real estate pays. Five ways, which is any listener knows is appreciation, cash flow, return on amortization, tax benefits, and then fifthly, inflation profiting.


Speaker 1 (00:12:18) - And I'm holding up five fingers right now, as I say this, according to numerology, the number five symbolizes freedom, curiosity and change, a desire to have adventures and explore new possibilities. But it signifies more than just high energy and excitement. In numerology, the five negative traits can include talking too much and overconfidence. Okay, that's what numerology says. Five ways real estate pays is a freedom formula. So that's actually numerology appropriate, I suppose. Now we don't do astrology or tarot cards here. Nothing hokey, concrete evidence though I will venture to guess that at least in some other facet of your life, five resonates with you. You've got five senses. Each one of your limbs has five fingers or five toes. In Christianity, there are the five wounds of Jesus Christ. If you're Muslim, there are the five pillars of Islam. Muslims pray to Allah five times a day. In Judaism, the Torah contains five books. Aristotle said that the universe is made up of five classical elements water, air, earth, fire, and ether.


Speaker 1 (00:13:41) - A lot of more popular folklore celebrates the five like Indiana Jones sort, the Sankara stones. They were five magical rocks. In music. Modern musical notation uses a musical staff made of five horizontal lines. Sports. The Olympic Games have five interlocked rings. When you shake hands to close your next real estate deal, you're each using those five fingers. In law, five is what renders a verdict. Five is the number of justices on the Supreme Court of the United States necessary to render a majority decision. There's a show on Fox called the Five and near the top of our Don't Quit Your day dream letter. We've got the five. Five is defensible in your investment fortress, just like the Pentagon is a five sided building in D.C. known for defense. Real estate pays five ways. And hey, even that phrase is five words. And it's a concept that was first introduced to the world right here on the Gerry podcast in 2015. So we're done with the touchy feely stuff, but look around five. It has a lot of meaning in your life.


Speaker 1 (00:15:02) - And in fact, the next time someone asks you why you're invested in real estate, hold up five fingers and confidently tell them that real estate pays five ways. What better way to affirm this than to come back with a concrete example shortly on how this helps you navigate toward financial freedom in your life, in ever changing real estate markets, we're going to use today's real life numbers in summing up the five. I hope you enjoyed me whipping around the asset classes in explaining what an inverted yield curve really means to you. More next, I'm Keith Reinhold. You're listening to get Rich education. Role under the specific expert with income property, you need Ridge Lending Group and MLS for 256. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four Plex's. Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge personally. They'll even customize a plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Ridge lending


Speaker 1 (00:16:23) - You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate. And I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2 jobs income. They've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, six eight, six, six.


Speaker 3 (00:17:26) - This is Rich dad advisor Ken McElroy. Listen to get Rich education with Keith White.


Speaker 3 (00:17:32) - Hold and don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 1 (00:17:44) - Welcome back to get Rich education. I'm your host, Keith Wayne. Hold. You've been with me here every single week since 2014. A lot of you have anyway. You're listening to episode 483, and I'm deeply appreciative for you, the listener, coming up here on the show and in house chat with one of our investment coaches, Doug Casey, on the Silent Depression. And like I told you last week, soon, a return of Tom. We write when we discuss whether the US can just completely do away with and delete the property tax. Wouldn't that be amazing? Around here? We like to say that when we provide good housing to people, we can help abolish the term slumlord. But your real estate investing venture isn't solely altruistic. There are generous profits, too. And, you know, it's incredible to me how more real estate investors don't even understand the answer to basic questions like how do I get paid in? How much do I get paid, and where the sources of where that money comes from.


Speaker 1 (00:18:49) - And really, these are all huge reasons for why you and I are even investing in real estate at all. So I love doing this. Let's add up the five ways and come up with a total ROI. And it's always a little awe inspiring to do this, even with conservative numbers, to see how high your return gets. And let's use the year 2024 sort of numbers. And it's kind of funny in a sense. I dislike real estate elements where down the outside tenants might get difficult to manage on the inside, and you're certainly going to have some problems, including some weird problems along the way in your investor journey. So although in a sense I dislike real estate, rather I like what real estate does, for me, it's largely about those giant returns. So let me demystify real estate returns with a quick breakdown. And I think you know that the five ways are not for fix and flip property. This is just with buy and hold investing on a property that's ready to go, ready to be moved into turnkey.


Speaker 1 (00:20:03) - Here's a simplified method the concrete numbers. Right. Let's say that you make a 20% down payment. In this case that is a 40 K initial investment on a 200 K income property in just a year. Here's what can happen. The first way appreciation. You've got that initial property value of 200 K and appreciation rate of just 5%. Where your new property's value is now 210 K, you just experienced an equity gain of ten K divided by your 40 K initial investment. That is a 25% return to you just from the first of five ways you're paid. That is due to the magic of leverage, because you got the gain on both your down payment and the money that you got to borrow from the bank. The second way is with cash flow. Let's say your rental income is $1,600 a month, but things are running a little thinner on this property, and your expenses are $1,500 a month with the mortgage and all the operating expenses, that gives you leftover cash flow of only 100 bucks a month. That's 1200 bucks a year that's still divided by that same 40 K initial investment you made.


Speaker 1 (00:21:13) - All right. That is another 3% return to you. The third way you're paid is that ROA return on amortization. Also known as principal pay down. All right. Will you have a 160 K loan on this property? We'll use an 8% interest rate. So all you got to do is search for a loan amortization table, bring it up, and you'll see that you have a monthly principal reduction of about $110 a month. That is $1,320 a year that your tenant paid down, not you. So right here, your $1,320 equity gain is still divided by your same 40 K skin in the game down payment. That is yet another 3% gain. Then the fourth of five ways are your tax benefits. All right. Your property value is 200 K. That's how much your property is worth on the day that you bought it. And your building value might be about 70% of that. And the other is in the value of the land. So therefore you're building value. Or that improved portion of the property is worth about 140 K will annual depreciation is about 3.6% of that.


Speaker 1 (00:22:30) - That gives you a $5,000 tax depreciation benefit. If you're at the 25% tax rate, that's 1250 bucks a year divided by your same 40 K initial investment, that is another 3% return to you just piling on. And then the fifth and final way is your inflation profiting you profit from inflation as your debt gets debased by inflation. This is the least understood of the five ways you've got that 160 K loan amount at a 3% inflation rate. That gives you an annual debt debasement of $4,800, again divided by your same 40 K initial investment. This is another 12% return to you. All right. There we go. Now let's add up all of those ROI from the five ways real estate pays. You had 25% from appreciation plus 3% from cash flow, plus 3% from your ROA, plus 3% from your tax benefit, plus 12% from your inflation profiting that equals a 46% total ROI that you have from this property. I mean that right there. That is exactly why you're a real estate investor. That is exactly why I'm a real estate investor.


Speaker 1 (00:23:56) - What do you think it was for to replace toilet flappers and spackle? Drywall? Hey, this stuff's important, but I don't personally do it myself. That's the kind of stuff I dislike because I'm not good at it. Now, at a number of steps when I went through that, you'll notice that I was conservative or rounded down. I used an 8% mortgage rate and 3% inflation. Although there are numerous tax benefits, the only one I considered is tax depreciation. Your seller can often help pay your closing costs if you make a full price offer. So to keep it simple, I did not roll closing costs into that. See, all these numbers are realistic. While paying a property manager is accounted for. And as a reminder, that was only in year one. Your subsequent years returns. They are going to gradually diminish as equity accumulates in your property. And of course, that's an example. You are real life numbers. You're really going to be better than that or worse than that. And yes, we could get more precise numbers if we like, discuss numbers from 20 spreadsheets and really made your head hurt.


Speaker 1 (00:25:09) - But we're not going to do that. And you do enough years of this, and you're going to have hordes of people lurking in the viewers of your Instagram story about your latest month long vacation in the Maldives islands. Okay, now, if you need to see what I just explained visually and your newer to our platform and you haven't seen that yet, I also explain the five ways in a free mini video course so that you can really get a good look at all those numbers and where they come from. And you can get that at get Rich education. Com slash course. The cool thing about real estate math like I just did there is it simplicity. All we did there was addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. It real estate. I've never had to do trigonometry, calculus or use exponents. Okay, it's not about complicated maths. All it is is knowing what numbers to use. And in fact, that's probably why I'd expected. My skills are pretty rusty in calculus and trigonometry right now. I don't need to use that stuff.


Speaker 1 (00:26:17) - You can do all this with a pen and a napkin at. Lunch. And that is a big part of the beauty of this. So here at gray, we brought the world in awareness to this for about nine years now, and shortly after show inception, we helped lead you to the actual property addresses that are conducive to this because you kept asking me, where can I actually find properties, where this works? And then more recently, we added free coaching to help get you started or to help you get your next income property. And by the way, if you've ever wondered, there are eight of us that are here on the team at gray, and we often recruit new team members. We do that through our newsletter subscribers like you, because you already understand abundantly minded concepts like financially free beats debt free. We are not owned by any parent company. So when you tell a friend about the show or you interact with our sponsors, you're really supporting an independent voice here. And that's not to disparage the big corporate in any way.


Speaker 1 (00:27:26) - That's just simply not who we are. It was recently reported that Warner Brothers and Paramount are in early merger discussions. Well, gray won't be facing scrutiny from antitrust regulators anytime soon. And our sponsors, like you hear on our ads here during the show, they are ones that I use myself. We don't produce AI generated material here either. This is organic, original content, and a number of people on our team here have been with us for a while. Our investment coach Andrea since 2020, nourish since 2021, and our podcast Sound Engineer and has helped produce this show that you're listening to right now, every single week since episode three, in 2014, almost since inception, nine plus years now, Gray Marketplace is where you'll find the income properties for almost two years now. To make it even easier for you, you can even find and select from our two investment coaches on that page in order to help you out. And since our coaching is truly free, please respect their time. They're not there just to chat.


Speaker 1 (00:28:40) - It is for action takers now. Seven weeks ago, we did an episode here on how the real estate market is slowing it down. And of course, when we're talking about slowing down, the slow real estate market is in terms of the number of sales or the sales volume, not as many homes are transacting as usual. For one thing, there's always a lag around the holidays, but there's also an overall lack of American housing inventory, as you probably know well, I am happy to tell you that we do have inventory at GRE marketplace and a good selection. Everything from an older, renovated Ohio single family income property for a sales price of, say, 110 K to Alabama and new build single families for 300 K to Florida. New build duplexes for 500 to 600 K to four plex's for upwards of $1 million. If you want to benefit from everything that we discuss here on the channel, the actionable way for you to do that is with our free coaching. Yes, I'm talking about you. Make yourself that long term.


Speaker 1 (00:29:51) - Five ways profiteer. By not focusing on getting your money to work for you. That is a fixed mindset paradigm shift to ethically getting other people's money to work for you. Like we discuss here. That is, you simply put a small down payment on an income producing property. I mean, that's most of the formula right there. That's it. We're talking about how you can start or grow your own portfolio of buy and hold property, not fixing flips. It's often entry level property which is what makes a good long term rental property that's either already renovated or it is brand new. Oftentimes it's single family homes. Up to four plex is sometimes some apartment buildings. They're now a great marketplace. You can either shop off market property yourself, or have the free help of one of our great investment coaches. And your coach learns your goals, guides you, and makes it easy for you. They help you shop. The great marketplace properties, tell you where the real deals are nationally, and sometimes they tell you how to get improbably low mortgage rates when new home builders make those available, and your coach if you don't have one already, they give you the insights, the news on the latest good deals.


Speaker 1 (00:31:13) - For about a year now, a lot of new home builders have got to keep building and they have to keep moving properties to stay in business. So that's why amidst. Higher mortgage rates. You can get an interest rate for income property in the fives now because the builder buys it down for you and or even get a year's worth of free property management. Yeah, builders are often able to buy down your mortgage rate for you, because what they do is that they buy big chunks of money from lenders in bulk, where instead, if a lender does it directly with you, they have more documentation that they have to do with each individual investor for their smaller loan sizes. That's how builders are buying down your rate. They buy money in bulk from lenders. Now you'll see that grey marketplace properties are often less expensive than you'll find elsewhere. For properties that are turnkey and ready to be tenant occupied. Like this. Now, how are these off market property prices so competitive? Really? Where's the advantage come from here? Well, first of all, there is no real estate agent that the seller has to compensate with a traditional 5 or 6% commission.


Speaker 1 (00:32:30) - Instead you get to buy direct. Secondly, investor advantage markets just intrinsically have lower prices than the national median. They tend to be in the Midwest, southeast and Inland Northeast, and they come with a property management solution. And thirdly, the providers in our network, they're not mom and pop flippers that provide investors like you with just 1 or 2 homes a year. Instead, these are builders and renovation companies in business to do this at scale. So they get to buy their materials in bulk, keeping the price down for you. And really a fourth reason that you tend to find good deals at Gray Market Place is that you aren't buying properties from owner occupants where their emotions get involved, and they sometimes expect irrationally high prices for some offbeat reason because the living room is where they open their Christmas stockings every year for a decade or something like that. Now, just like buying your own home to live in, these income properties come with a lot of the same safeguards when you buy. We suggest that once your coach helps you make an offer and you're under contract for a property, that you have an independent third party property inspection done, and then the seller typically fixes any inspection findings for you at their expense, the seller's expense, before you close the deal.


Speaker 1 (00:33:57) - And we're talking about anything from a window that doesn't close properly to a faucet that drips. You want to have those conditions cured and taken care of before you buy. Now, as a buyer, it's not legally required that you do an inspection, but I recommend it even if it slows down your purchase process a little. Inspection is like cheap insurance for you. Don't rush that part as a condition of your mortgage lender giving you the loan, there will be an independent lender appraisal of the property's value before you buy. That part is mandatory. And this appraisal? It's another safeguard to keep you from overpaying. If you don't have an investment coach yet, it is truly free. They're there to help you out. Read a few sentences about each coach and pick the coach that you think resonates with you. Or just pick the one that you think has the best smile over there on that page. Uh, they are really well qualified. They have their MBAs, but more importantly, the coaches are relatable because they're active real estate investors themselves, just like I am.


Speaker 1 (00:35:03) - Coaching is truly something that's free. We don't try to upsell you to some paid course or some fee based coaching program later. There's nothing like that. So just create one login one time and connect with them at Gray And it's really helpful if you're financially ready. First check with your mortgage loan company and get pre-approved unless you're paying all cash. Really? Today, with inflation about as little as you'd want to spend on a rental property, they won't give you an inordinate amount of problems. Is your 20% down payment on a 100 to 150 K property? Well, you should find this most helpful. You can get started with investor advantaged off market deals and investment coaches at Gray I'm Keith Reinhold. I'll chat with you next week. Don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 4 (00:36:05) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss.


Speaker 4 (00:36:20) - The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 1 (00:36:33) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich

Direct download: GREepisode483_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

After discussing the direction of rents, learn about an ominous new tax that’s proposed.

SCOTUS and Congress are considering a tax on unrealized gains. 

For example, if your gold or furniture appreciates from $5K to $8K, would you have to pay a tax on the $3K gain, even if you keep owning the gold or furniture?

Tom Wheelwright from WealthAbility joins us to discuss this.

Though this is considered a “wealth tax”, the middle class would have to pay it.

The tax case being heard is called “Moore vs. United States”. We expect it to be decided this year. 

Tom & I discuss how few people understand marginal income tax rates’ progressivity.

The last dollar that you earn is taxed at your highest rate. The first dollar that you earn is taxed at your lowest rate.


Factors Driving Rent Growth (00:02:45)

Inflation, lack of inventory, expired rent freezes, shifting workforce, demand for single-family homes, high employment, barriers to homeownership.

Promising Development in Multifamily Construction (00:05:33)

Multifamily construction reaching a 15-year high, new supply likely to slow down apartment rent growth, inclusionary housing requirements for new construction.

Current Rent Trends (00:08:04)

Single-family rents up 5%, apartment rent growth at 3%, highest rent price growth in the northeastern quadrant of the US.

Supreme Court Case: Moore v. United States (00:11:47)

Overview of the case, implications of taxing unrealized gains, arguments for and against the taxation of unrealized income, potential impact on everyday investors and citizens.

Challenges of a Wealth Tax (00:18:07)

Discussion on the problematic nature of a wealth tax, potential impact on individuals and assets, comparison to estate tax, and potential implications of a wealth tax on various assets.

The tax on unrealized gains (00:22:43)

Discussion on the potential impact of a proposed wealth tax on unrealized gains and the complexities of taxing assets while they are still held.

The regressive nature of wealth taxation (00:24:38)

Exploration of the regressive nature of wealth taxation and the challenges in implementing and managing taxes on wealth.

Tax laws and equal protection (00:27:19)

Insights into how tax laws apply equally to everyone and how billionaires benefit from better advisors to minimize tax payments.

Tax rate misconceptions (00:30:15)

Clarification of misconceptions about tax rates, including the progressive nature of tax tables and the impact of earning more income.

Tax strategies and investment decisions (00:32:17)

Exploration of tax benefits related to investment strategies, including the impact of deductions and the suitability of IRAs for different investment types.

Updates on tax laws and book release (00:34:57)

Announcement of the third edition of the book "Tax-Free Wealth" and the incorporation of major tax law changes into the updated edition.

Wealthy's tax contributions and future episode preview (00:36:03)

Discussion on the tax contributions of the wealthy and a preview of a future episode topic on the feasibility of abolishing property tax.

Conclusion and show updates (00:37:13)

Closing remarks on upcoming content, including the landmark episode 500, and a call to subscribe to the show for valuable insights.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. 

You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

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Complete episode transcript:


Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, and it's a new year. We talk about what drives the growth of rents. Then a gigantic new tax is being proposed that could fundamentally change virtually every current investment you own and future investment you make today on Get Rich education. When you want the best real estate and finance info. The modern internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls. And you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies. Disclaimers are. At no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life? See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of hours myself. It's got a dash of humor and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple. Text GRE to 66866. And when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course completely free. It's called the Don't Quit Your Day dream letter and it wires your mind for wealth.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:18) - Make sure you read it. Text grey to 66866. Text GRE to 66866.


Speaker 2 (00:01:30) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:46) - What could go from Beckley, West Virginia, to Boise, Idaho, and across 188 nations worldwide. You're listening. To get rich education, I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. What about this new proposed wealth tax? Should there be one? How big is it? As you're gonna find out, you would probably even have to pay this huge new proposed tax. If you're in the middle class. That's all. If it gets legislated, that's coming up shortly. But first, last week I told you about the future direction of home prices. As I revealed our 2024 National Home Price Appreciation Forecast this week, let's talk about the direction of rents in America, higher prices for everything that could make tenants feel tapped out. Although we have now had a few months of wage growth picking up before we get into the rent trend, this is get rich education.


Keith Weinhold (00:02:45) - So focusing on the education part as we often do, what are the factors that drive rent anyway? What drives rent growth and how did rent get to feel so expensive for a lot of people? Well, the fast growth of rent costs since 2020 that derives really from a number of factors, including inflation and also including a lack of inventory. There is a shortage of vacant rental properties in general and of affordable ones in particular. You've also got those expired rent freezes and expired discounts. I mean, landlords are making up for pandemic era rent freezes and steep discounts in urban areas. And by doing that, what they've done now is hiked up prices on new units and on lease renewals. Another factor that drives rent growth is what's happening with the workforce. And we've had a shifting workforce. As the pandemic increased, the popularity of remote work, you had deep pocketed renters that sought out larger homes, often single family homes, in areas that had previously been pretty low cost. So this migration then it increased the rents in suburban and outlying areas more than it lowered them in urban ones.


Keith Weinhold (00:04:06) - And see that trend overall that yielded a net increase in rents. And then another factor is that you have more demand for people to live alone. Prospective renters are increasingly looking for studio in one bedroom apartments, driving up demand for available housing, and that drives demand for space and therefore rent growth, because living alone, that means that rather than two people demanding to live in one unit, two people demand two places to live. And of course, high employment like we've had. That's another factor that drives rent growth over time. And the last factor that I'll share with you as a rent growth driver are barriers to homeownership. Yeah. Prospective homeowners, they remain renters for longer because they face high demand and low inventory on those existing homes. Like I've talked about before, higher mortgage rates. And you had those supply chain disruptions that really began a few years ago. Most of those are alleviated now, but that made it more expensive and more difficult to construct new homes. And then as mortgage rates rose starting back in early 2021, housing prices, they cooled off faster than rents, and rents are finally rising at a slower pace now then they did in the past two plus years.


Keith Weinhold (00:05:33) - And so those are the factors that drive rent growth. Now. Back in 2022, a promising development began, promising for those that are looking to pay less for housing in the future anyway. From their perspective, and that is the fact that multifamily construction reached a 15 year high nationwide, and that new supply is what's likely to slow down apartment rent growth. And since many cities require really this inclusionary housing, that means that a portion of new housing needs to be affordable. Well, therefore, new construction also means new affordable housing. Again, that's predominantly on the apartment side. But see, many families, they want a single family home. They want that privacy. They want that separation. They want to live in something that feels like their own, but they can't afford a single family home to buy. So they rent one. And, you know, I thought Zillow recently pointed it out really well when they said that single family rentals are the new. Their homes. They appeal to those that are priced out of buying.


Keith Weinhold (00:06:49) - And now you can see this reflected in rent growth. So now that we talked about some of the longer term drivers of growth, let's talk more about the current period of time. We don't have Q4 numbers in yet, but through Q3 we can see that the growth of single family rents is 5%. All right. That sounds healthy. And it is. And that's per John Burns research and Consulting. But that 5% increase is down from two years ago when it had its recent peak of between 9 and 10%. So again, right there, we're just talking about the annual growth rate in single family rents. It's about 5% through the latest quarter that we have stats for now. Compare that 5% to apartment rent growth, which is about 3% today. Even in an economic slowdown, rents rarely fall. And by the way, if rents ever do fall, I call it falling rents. Or perhaps I use the phrase declining reds for some reason. If price is contracting anything, some economists and analysts and others, they refer to this as negative growth.


Keith Weinhold (00:08:04) - I don't tend to use the term negative growth. That's confusing. I just call it a decline. Okay. Negative growth. That makes you wonder if someone means slowing growth rates or do they mean an outright decline. So negative growth is an oxymoron like jumbo shrimp or black light or friendly fire, or telling someone to act natural, or perhaps a working vacation? Okay, that's what negative growth means to me anyway. Now rents, whether it's single family rentals or apartments, when you blend those together regionally, you're seeing the highest rent price growth in the northeastern quadrant of the United States, which oddly contains a good chunk of the Midwest. So you just look at the northeastern quadrant of the United States. So leaders in red growth we're talking about here Providence, Rhode Island, Hartford, Connecticut, Cincinnati, Columbus, Saint Louis, Milwaukee and Chicago, they are all on that list. The highest rent growth blended together, single family rentals and apartments. By the way, two months ago I was in Hartford, Connecticut for the first time in a while.


Keith Weinhold (00:09:18) - Nice skyline there. Yeah, Hartford. You have an impressively urban feel for a city that's not among America's largest. Now. You're seeing slight rent price declines this past year in a lot of their really big, swaggering, broad shouldered gateway cities New York City, San Diego, San Francisco, San Jose, and also in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm not sure what's going on in Raleigh, North Carolina, with their sluggish rent growth, but here, as testimony to the fact that rents don't often fall far, all of those bigger cities that I just mentioned, these big losers, they're only down between one half of 1% and 1% for year over year rents. So to review nationally in the last year, single family rents are up 5% and apartment rent growth is up 3%. But both have slowed from a couple years ago. Can the federal government tax your unrealized gains, also known as a wealth tax? We're going to talk about what that means. But how far could this go? If your home appreciates a 30 K in a year, but you want to keep living in it, might you have to pay tax on that gain even though you don't sell it, you just want to keep living there.


Keith Weinhold (00:10:41) - Could that even apply to you? If you own furniture that goes up in value, but you kind of like dining at that nice mahogany table of yours, could you get taxed on that every year? If the value of that goes up? And then you would have to ask the question, where are you supposed to get the money from in order to pay the tax? Might you have to sell that asset in order to pay the tax on it? So let's discuss a wealth tax that is tax on your unrealized gains. A renowned tax and wealth expert is back on the show with us today. He's also a CPA and the CEO of a terrific tax firm called Wealth Ability. He's the best selling author of the Mega-popular book Tax Free Wealth, which I have on my bookshelf. And a third edition is about to come out. He's going to tell us more about that. Hey, welcome back to Dr. Tom Wheelwright. Thanks, Keith. Always good to be with you. It's good to be with you, too.


Keith Weinhold (00:11:47) - And I think it's going to be especially informative and maybe disturbing this time, Tom, because really, it's been called the quadrillion dollar question. This is where Supreme Court justices decide whether the federal government can tax certain unrealized gains. And what this means is that these are assets that you own, but yet you haven't sold yet. So, Tom, tell us about this Supreme Court case hearing it known as more Maori versus the United States. Yeah. So this is a couple that invested in a company in India. They owned, I think, 12 or 13% of the company. And when the 2017 Tax Act was passed, what we commonly think of as the Trump Tax Act, one of the provisions was that in order to go to a taxation where you couldn't just put off bringing back the money all the time, they said, well, look, we're going to have a one time tax, we're going to have a tax on repatriated earnings. Some of you have heard that term repatriated earnings as if they came back.


Keith Weinhold (00:12:56) - Okay. So whether or not they came back as if they came back. And if you're a shareholder of 10% or more, then you have to pay that tax in certain situations. And so the laws actually had to pay the tax. This was the tax on the income of their corporation. So the corporation could have its own tax. But this is actually a tax on the shareholder. So that's actually where this is interesting because is similarly frankly we have taxes on partners and partnerships. Right. If you're a partner in a partnership you're taxed on that income. Whether or not you get the money in a corporation, typically you're not taxed on the income unless you get the money. That's a dividend. If you don't get the money, the corporation's taxed, but you aren't taxed. This was a situation where it's a corporation, but the shareholders were taxed. The Moores are arguing, well, this is equivalent to a wealth tax. And it's actually why I think the Supreme Court took this up, because it's not a case that you would normally think the Supreme Court would agree to hear.


Keith Weinhold (00:13:57) - Well, I think where this concerns people is, could this open up things so that the everyday person and the everyday investor could have to pay these unrealized gains on assets that they own, that have not sold? I mean, even their primary residence, if that appreciates from 500 K to 550 K, are they going to owe tax on that 50 K even if they plan to continue to stay there and hold on to it because they want to live their. That's what certain members of Congress would like. Liz Warren would absolutely like that to happen. Bernie Sanders absolutely like that to happen. I actually think that's why the Supreme Court took up the case, is because I don't think the Supreme Court believes that that should happen. I think it's going to come out. They're going to narrow what a wealth tax can and can't be, because I think they need to because they need to say, look. So we've had oral arguments already. So we expect a decision out sometime this year. But basically the arguments by the IRS were we do this all the time.


Keith Weinhold (00:14:56) - We have taxes, unrealized income. We have mark to market on stock trading. So that's a tax on unrealized income. We have a tax on partnerships. That's a tax on realized by undistributed income. The reality is this tax the Moores are are arguing against is a tax on realized but undistributed income. I think that's where the Supreme Court would come down. I'm actually willing to make a prediction on this because I think the Supreme Court say, well, this isn't a wealth tax, and a wealth tax would be prohibited under the Constitution because that would have to be based on population. A property tax, for example, is a wealth tax. Then the US that's reserved to the locales. We can't do a federal tax. We couldn't have a federal property tax. And that's, I think, what the Supreme Court is going to say. You can't have a federal property tax that's prohibited by the Constitution. You now have local property taxes because the locals can do whatever they want. But unless you have it apportion among the states based on population, you'd literally have to have a poll tax, which is a tax per person, as opposed to a tax on the value of what a person owns.


Keith Weinhold (00:16:07) - That's the difference. So there's a lot of complications. That's a direct tax versus indirect tax, all that kind of stuff. I think the important thing is to understand that there are realized, but undistributed income, that's like a partnership, right? You can be a partner in a partnership. The partnership really uses the income. They get the money, but they don't distribute it. As a partner, you're taxed on your share of that income. It has been realized you just haven't gotten it yet. This is, by the way, very similar to the Moore situation. That money, that income was earned that just hasn't been distributed yet. And the question is the fact that they haven't distributed, does that mean they can't tax it? The odd thing is, is I think the Moores are going to lose the case. Moores will lose the battle and win the war. This is a small amount of money, right. So this is obviously the Moore is not trying to save money. There's way more money being spent on legal counsel than the tax.


Keith Weinhold (00:17:03) - So the Moores aren't doing this. This is people behind saying this is a good test case. We need to put a stop to the wealth tax conversation of Liz Warren and Bernie Sanders and Wade. And this is a case to do that. That's really what kind of the background is. That's all the background of this court case is what's really going on and what's really going on is the Ninth Circuit made it sound like any taxes find. And the Supreme Court said, well, we're going to take this up because I think a majority thinks we don't think any tax is fine because clearly under the Constitution, not any taxes. Fine. We're going to help define that. And so I think we're going to get some better clarity on what kind of taxes Congress can enact. Ultimately, I think the Morse will lose their case. Yes, the more clarity is good. I mean, the Supreme Court knows that this is a contentious issue, and I sure want any discussion to get shut down. It might lead to everyday investors and citizens paying tax unrealized gains.


Keith Weinhold (00:18:07) - I mean, with that example that I gave you of, say, a couple that owns a 500 K home and they want to keep living in it, but it just happened to go up to 550 K. I mean, where would they get the tax to pay on that. Well yeah. Well that's another problem. You can talk to any fixed income retiree and they'd have the same complaint about property tax. Sure. Yeah I don't know where this could go. I mean, what if you own rare furniture in your home? Okay. This furniture is worth more at the end of the year than it is at the beginning of the year. But yet you didn't sell it. You just continue to use your furniture. I mean, could that get taxed? It's a terrible slippery slope. And, you know, they talk about, well, don't give me I'm billionaires. I'm going okay. But let's face it, the income tax was only supposed to be on billionaires, okay. The equivalent of billionaires.


Keith Weinhold (00:18:51) - You had to make a lot of money to be subject to income tax in 1913. Yeah okay. So we know it's going to come down. It always does the tax law. You know politicians never like to give up any tax money. They always are trying to apply to more and more people more and more income. So it is problematic. You know, the idea of a wealth tax is very problematic. You know, several European countries have tried it and they've all failed. France tried it. And people like Gerard Depardieu, um, the actor, he just left France, you know, people leave now, what Bernie Sanders wants to do, this is fascinating. He wants to put an exit tax. So if you do leave, you still have to pay the tax. You actually have to pay a tax to leave. So basically what Trump is, he wants the Berlin Wall, but he wants an economic Berlin Wall. Right. That's what he wants. He wants an economic wall. He's going to complain about the wall bordering Mexico, but he's going to put an economic wall around everybody and not allow you to leave.


Keith Weinhold (00:19:50) - It'd be like somebody, California, putting a wall literal wall up and saying, you can't leave California, right. That's kind of the idea that. And if you do leave California now, California, in fact, they talked about it in 2023. And actually, interestingly, the governor defeated it. They talked about imposing an exit tax. So if you leave California, you have to pay a tax for leaving. And fortunately he defeated that. He crushed that. I mean, not sure why he did that, but he did understand the states have more power to tax than the federal government does. Federal government is limited in its taxing power, and it's really limited by the 16th amendment that allowed a pure income tax. The question and this is the argument that Sanders and Warren are making, is that it is income. And the reality is we do have billionaires who pay no tax. And the reason they pay no tax is because their stocks, which are public, go up in value. They're not required to sell them.


Keith Weinhold (00:20:51) - They can borrow against them and they never pay tax. So the argument is, well, wait a minute, that's not fair. That's a decent argument. Honestly. The challenge is yeah, if you could really say we're going to limit it to billionaires and we're going to limit it to publicly traded stock, you're fine. Not a big deal. But it never gets limited. And that's the problem. It never ever gets limited. Once the camel gets its nose under the tent it just right going on taxation all over the tent piling on and not get pulled away. They don't remove layers of taxation. It seems once the president is sent somewhere, it just seems like it continues to spread. Tom, if I could just give one last example on this. If this ever goes to where unrealized gains get taxed and how absurd this all is, just say you. Oh, gold and gold goes from $2000 to $5000. You don't sell it, you just keep holding on to it. And then you'd have to find the income to go ahead and pay the tax.


Keith Weinhold (00:21:48) - Well, you'd have to sell gold. And that's actually what they want. They actually want you to have to sell the gold. Oh, they would want gold to be sold to sell the gold. I want you to sell the stock. So the goal behind the wealth tax is to force you to sell these assets and pay the tax. Okay. Now we have a wealth tax. It's called an estate tax. That is a wealth tax. And there are businesses. There are families who have to sell their family home. They have to sell their family business. They have to sell their family farm because of the estate tax. And so this is another argument that the proponents of wealth tax are making is, wait a minute, we have a wealth tax already. It's called an estate tax. If we can have an estate tax, why can't we have a tax currently? Why do we have to wait until somebody dies to impose that tax? It's an interesting argument. I'm not a policy guy. I'm not one to make policy.


Keith Weinhold (00:22:43) - I want to explain policy. It is a question. If I can have a tax on wealth when you die, why can't I have a tax on wealth while you're alive? Sure. And I thought through the scenario as well. If the river is a tax on unrealized gains, whether that's your house going up in value or furniture or gold after you would pay this unrealized tax, then in the end, when you do want to sell it, what if you sold it for less than you thought it was worth? And then how the heck do you go back and adjust that for the tax that you are now in it? And it actually gets worse than that. Keith. Let's say we have a boom market this year and next year we have a recession. Are we going to get the money back? Exactly. And that's the hardest part because the answer is clearly, no, we're not. I mean, because think of it right now, we have a provision in the law that taxes capital gains.


Keith Weinhold (00:23:35) - There's an argument capital gains should never be taxed because especially at least if there are a capital gain because of inflation, they should never be taxed. If you actually went up in value, yes, they should be taxed. But if they're just inflated in value, why are you paying a tax on something that's not worth anymore than it was five years ago that got the same value? It's just got a different price. But we have a capital gains tax. But think about this. Let's say you have a year and you sell stocks and you have this big game. And the next year you have a loss because you sell stocks because everything went down well. You don't get to use those losses to offset your income. You have to carry those losses forward forever until you have gains again, you don't get go backwards with those losses and recapture the gains that you paid, you know, last year. So we already have this problem built into the system. And now all you'd be doing is exacerbating it. The other problem with, by the way, is that it's very regressive in that you're talking about people taxing their wealth.


Keith Weinhold (00:24:38) - Now, you can put limits, right, which is what you would have to do. And you say, well, look, your personal residence, we're not going to tax, you know, we're only going to tax the excess, which is, by the way, what income tax originally was. It was only excess investment income. You were never taxed on wages. When the 16th amendment was passed there was no tax on wages. We didn't get a tax on wages until 1944. You go, well, we'll exempt all these today. What about tomorrow? And that's always the issue. I'll tell you, the taxes just keep piling and piling on. We're going to talk more about taxation with Tom. We're right when we come back you're listening to University Kitchen. I'm your host Keith Reinhold. I render this a specific expert with income property you need. Ridge lending Group Nmls 42056. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four Plex's.


Keith Weinhold (00:25:39) - Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge. Personally, though, even customized plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Ridge lending You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains and your W-2 jobs income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, 686, six.


Tom Wheelwright (00:27:02) - Anybody? It's Robert Elms or the Real Estate Guys radio program. So glad you found Keith Reinhold and get rich education. Don't quit your day dream.


Keith Weinhold (00:27:19) - Welcome back to cash. We're talking with Tom Wheelwright, the author of the Mega-popular book Tax Free Wealth. He runs the terrific tax firm called Wealth Ability. Tom, you often like to talk about how really, in a lot of cases, tax laws can apply to everyone, but do business operate really under the same tax laws as a middle class or us in the middle class? Really take a page out of what billionaires are doing. How can we best do that? So we have a wonderful aspect of the Constitution, a clause called the Equal Protection Clause. And what it says is taxes have to be applied equally to everybody in the same situation. So what we're billionaires are different is they have better advisers. That's where they're different. So their advisors know all the rules of the tax law. They pay them hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars a year to make sure that they're paying the least amount of tax possible.


Keith Weinhold (00:28:14) - Presumably, all they're doing is following the law. Those same laws apply to you and me. So that's why, for example, somebody who owns a single family home that they rent out to an unrelated person is entitled to the same tax benefits as somebody who owns a 200 unit apartment complex or somebody who owns Trump Tower, as an example. Okay. You get the same tax benefits in the same situation. The challenge that, you know, the average person has is not enough access to those advisers and a misunderstanding of how the tax law works, because this whole idea will the billionaires get different tax than the average person is just false. That's just a falsehood that is propagated by a certain part of the public in a certain part of the administration that wants to add another tax to billionaires. The reality is we all get the same tax. The difference is, is that if you're a billionaire, let's say you made $1 billion a year and you paid $400 million in tax. You still have $600 million left over, which is more than 99.999999% of people have in a lifetime.


Keith Weinhold (00:29:25) - So it doesn't really hurt you. It doesn't change your lifestyle. Whereas if you put a 40% tax on somebody who makes $200,000 a year, now they're going from 200 to 120, and that has a major impact. And you're really just explain one reason why in the United States, we have tax tables set up that are what we would call progressive, where the more you make, the more you pay. But yeah, you're right, Tom. There are just there's such a knowledge gap out there. I have something happen to me. I bet it still happens to you a lot. Or I will talk to people and they say something like, well, I don't want to earn too much money this year. I'll go from the 24% tax bracket to the 30% tax bracket, and they act like all of their income is then going to be taxed at 30%. So they don't want to earn too much. So I'll tell you a funny story. Yeah. So I used to teach a class every month we'd have anywhere from 30 to 100 people in the class.


Keith Weinhold (00:30:15) - And I'd always do an example and I'd say, okay, let's say that you earn X amount of dollars and you get a $5,000 bonus. What's the cost of that $5,000 bonus from a tax standpoint? And I would say a good 40% of the class would come up with about $8,000. Was the cost of the $5,000 bonus, because just like you say, well, that puts me in a new bracket there for all my income is being taxed in the new bracket. No, it is progressive, meaning the last dollar you earn is taxed at the highest rate, but the first dollar you earn is taxed at the lowest rate. And that's important distinction because we're never taxed on more than right now. It's actually 40% because we have net investment income tax. So you're never taxed on more than 40% of your income by the federal government. You just can't be. So you can make whether you make a, you know, $1 million a year, $1 billion a year, $10 billion a year, your maximum tax rate is 40%.


Keith Weinhold (00:31:14) - That's an epiphany to some people to learn that tax rates are progressive, like you just explained with that $5,000 bonus example, why don't you tell us about another tactic or another example like that? We have a lot of savvy listeners. A lot of Marty realize that marginal example. Can you give us another one about how there's something relatively simple that can really elevate one's and lower their tax rate? Yeah. Let's go to the flip side of that. If the last dollar you earn is taxed at your highest rate, the first dollar you deduct is deducted at your highest rate. Great point. This is why, by the way, and if you read my book, The Windmill Strategy, I talk about this in chapter eight. I used to say for a long time that you never got a permanent tax benefit from putting your money in an IRA for one K and I ran the numbers and win win. And I was wrong. That's not true. And the reason is because let's say you put in $10,000 a year for 30 years, that deduction that you get for that $10,000 you put into your IRA for one K, you get a deduction at the highest tax bracket.


Keith Weinhold (00:32:17) - When you start pulling the money out, you're going to pull it out and you get all the tax brackets. So you put the money in, you get a deduction of the highest, you pull the money out, you get basically the combination of the different tax brackets. So you are actually better off. So for example, if somebody says I want all I investment to go on in the stock market, I would say you need A41K. That is the answer because self-directed would be best. Absolutely. Because you get a deduction now at your highest tax rate bracket. But down the road you're going to pull it out. Basically, even if you have the same income you can pull out a lower rate. Now that only applies if you're going to put the money in the stock market. If you're going to put the money into real estate for one, K is a terrible idea because real estate is a tax shelter and you lose all the tax benefits of a tax shelter. If you put it in an IRA, you actually take a tax shelter and make it a tax expense by putting it into an IRA for one K.


Keith Weinhold (00:33:14) - So there are certain things you would never do in an IRA. A reformed K real estate is one of those. Energy is one of those businesses. One agriculture. You'd never do those in an IRA or for one K, it's a terrible idea. But if you want to invest in the stock market, the bond market, things like that, IRAs make all the sense in the world. So really, that's why people ask me, well, should I do it for one K I'm going. I have no idea. What's your investment strategy? What's your wealth strategy? Where are you putting your money? People all the time. I have some imitators and they'll ask this question, well, how do you make your money? We can reduce your taxes. I'm going. That's the first question you have to ask. But I'm more interested in what are you going to do with your money? Because what you're going to do with your money has a much bigger impact on how we set things up from a tax side, how much money you're going to make, what kind of investments you're going to do, all that is impact by what you can do with your money.


Keith Weinhold (00:34:06) - That question about, you know, how do I make my money is a simple question that, frankly, I can do that kind of a tax strategy on stage in ten minutes. Well stated. That is a good point. Well, Tom, this has been great. You mentioned your latest book, the Win win. Well, strategy, but in one of your very well-known books, Tax Free Wealth, you've got another edition coming out. Tell us about that. Yeah, we have the third edition. So for the second edition we did that. When the Trump Tax Law 2017 was enacted, we needed to put in fact, we did a kind of in a rush. So we just added in things. Since 2017, we've had six major tax law changes, six major tax law changes during Covid. And so what we felt we want to do is let's roll it all in to a third edition will take the Trump tax law. Changes will roll those in. We'll take all the new tax law.


Keith Weinhold (00:34:57) - Changes will roll those in. So now tax free wealth is up to date. I think it's a better book. When I went through it of course I spent hours and hours and hours going through it. This is the best version of tax free wealth we've ever released. There are so many critical updates there. Again, the name of his book is Tax Free Wealth. I recommend checking that out. Tom. We're right. It's been informative. As always. Thanks so much for coming back out to the show. Thanks, Keith. Yeah. Sharp insights from Tom. As always, you can keep following along with the more versus United States case this year. Now, sometimes the wealthy, they will point something out that you've got to consider. It's got to give you a little pause. And that is actually should the wealthy get a tax rebate yet not get taxed more heavily because in the US see the top 1% pay about 42% of federal income taxes, and you might say, okay, well, that's the top 1%.


Keith Weinhold (00:36:03) - Why don't we bring in some of the middle class and revisit this? Well, the top 25% pay nearly 90% of the taxes. And that's all from a recent year per the Tax Foundation. Should the wealthy then get a tax rebate? Because you could say that they pay more than their fair share. Whatever fair share really means. Well, that is a valid question. Ask at the least. Well, today is the first time that we've had the marvelous, successful author, Tom. We're right on the show here in more than a year and a half. That's just a little unusual because he is the most recurrent guest here in history. And so therefore, for some more catch up coming down the road, Tom is going to return here to discuss a big question that I have for him. And in that future episode, Tom and I are going to discuss, should there even be such thing as a property tax, does it make more sense to say, abolish the property tax and then the government can get their revenue from somewhere else, as well as where that proposal might not be feasible? That should be super interesting.


Keith Weinhold (00:37:13) - Asking the question should there even be a property tax? In the meantime, check out Tom's third edition of his book Tax Free Wealth. It is a good read as far as tax reading goes. You're listening to episode 482 of the get Rich educational podcast. We have got a big year in store with plenty of original, groundbreaking content planned, including a memorable landmark episode 500 Coming Up, which will release on May 6th of this year. If you haven't already, I encourage you to subscribe to or follow the show here on your favorite podcasting device, or tell a friend about the show. I think they'll find it really valuable. Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Reinhold. Don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 4 (00:38:05) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 5 (00:38:33) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich

Direct download: GREepisode482_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

Is real estate cheap, adequately valued, or overpriced? I explore. 

Everything considered includes: inflation-adjusted price, affordability, quality, and other nations’ prices. 

Stadium trends are affecting urban real estate. More plan to move outside of downtowns.

I divide society into four groups of people. Then I discuss who is harmed by inflation and who benefits most:

1: The poor—lose

2: Paid-off homeowners—hedge

3: Mortgaged homeowners—hedge and profit

4: Mortgaged income property owners—hedge, profit, and increase income 

Learn how to talk to your tenant so that they never think “How the Rent Stole Christmas”. It’ll help ensure timely rent payments. Many tenants don’t understand that you have a mortgage to pay.

Finally, I reveal the exact percentage number that indicates GRE’s 2024 National Home Price Appreciation Forecast.


Real Estate Valuation and Gold Ratio (00:02:53)

Explains the concept of using the home price to gold ratio as a measure of real estate value and compares it to the long-term average.

Global House Prices (00:05:28)

Discusses how US home prices are comparatively cheaper than those in other developed nations, such as Australia and Canada.

Impact of Quality on Real Estate Value (00:06:40)

Highlights the increase in home size, amenities, and safety features over time, suggesting that today's homes offer more value at a potentially lower inflation-adjusted price compared to the past.

The trend of sports complexes with casinos (00:12:15)

The speaker discusses the trend of building sports complexes with casinos, mentioning examples such as Mark Cuban's plan for a new Mavs arena and the proposed entertainment complex and casino next to Citi Field.

The necessity of a second job due to inflation (00:13:36)

The speaker explains why inflation makes a second job necessary, emphasizing the importance of investing money at a rate higher than inflation to maintain prosperity and quality of life.

The four groups and their relationship with inflation (00:14:46)

The speaker categorizes four groups of people based on their ownership of property and how they are affected by inflation, highlighting the benefits and disadvantages each group experiences.

The Landlord-Tenant Relationship (00:24:22)

Discussion on maintaining open lines of communication with tenants and addressing misconceptions about landlords being greedy.

Explaining Property Expenses (00:25:37)

Informing tenants about the various expenses that landlords have to cover, such as mortgage, insurance, taxes, and maintenance.

Forecasting Home Price Appreciation (00:29:04)

Discussing past predictions and forecasts for future home price appreciation, including insights from various agencies and factors influencing prices such as housing supply and interest rates.

Home price appreciation forecast (00:35:22)

Keith Weinhold discusses his forecast for home price appreciation for the next year, which he predicts to be 4%.

Investment decisions based on forecast (00:36:51)

Keith Weinhold mentions that people are increasingly making investment decisions based on forecasts, but reminds listeners that forecasts are not guarantees.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. 

You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

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Complete episode transcript:


Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE! I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Today is real estate underpriced, adequately priced or overpriced? All outline a hierarchy of winners and losers with inflation in real estate. How the rent stole Christmas. Then the verdict is in as I reveal GRE’s 2024 home price appreciation forecast all today on Get Rich education. When you want the best real estate and finance info. The modern internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls. And you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies. Disclaimers are. At no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life? See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of hours myself. It's got a dash of humor and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple. Text grey to 66866. And when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course completely free.


Speaker 1 (00:01:18) - It's called the Don't Quit Your Day dream letter and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text grey to 66866. Text grey 266866.


Speaker 2 (00:01:35) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:01:51) - Welcome to GRE! From North Pole, New York, to North Pole, Alaska, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you're listening to Get Rich Education on Christmas. Happy holidays. Today is real estate cheap? Adequately valued or overpriced? Well, to many it doesn't feel like a relative bargain today, when you see how much housing prices and payments have escalated these past three years. There are a lot of ways to approach the question about whether today's U.S. real estate is cheap, adequately priced, or overpriced, so let's approach them. But when you ponder that question, didn't dollars quickly come to mind? Well, the median home price is $431,000 today, depending on how you slice it. Let's not be quick to forget that when you're looking for a measuring stick to determine the value of real estate or anything, dollars are an exceedingly poor way to track value.


Speaker 1 (00:02:53) - Because also, starting about three years ago, their slow, steady debasement turned into a rapid debasement and dilution of purchasing power. Dollars keep getting so relentlessly debased that, well, of course, it would take substantially more of those dollars to buy most anything today than it did three years ago. Property included. And this is precisely why the car that you own today costs more dollars than your grandparents first home did. Okay, so let's cancel out dollars. For 5000 years, gold has had enduring value. It's been a loose barometer for inflation all that time. As the dollar goes down, it takes more of them to buy the same amount of gold. So rather than pricing the home in dollars, wouldn't it make more sense to use the home price to gold ratio? Yeah, that is just what it sounds like. Instead of comparing home prices to dollars, compare it to how many ounces of gold it takes to buy a home and track that over time. Well, we find out that today it only takes about half as many ounces of gold to buy a home today as the long term average.


Speaker 1 (00:04:12) - And that's dating all the way back to the year 1889, yet just half as many. Yeah, that is a data set in the past 130 plus years, when you take the long term average of how many ounces of gold it takes to buy a median single family home, realize how special this comparison is. You now see the value of two of the most popular real assets relative to each other. All right, so home prices now appear low since it takes just 50% as much gold to buy a home today. But isn't that measure right there in itself enough evidence to say that real estate is under priced? No, that's certainly not. But it is one powerful touch point. We need more than that. Consider global house prices. So much of the world is a renter nation compared to the US, because home prices are substantially higher in other developed nations, from Australia to Canada, Canadian home prices are still nearly double the price of the same US home. This is a second powerful measure that US home prices are cheap here in the middle of the 2020s decade.


Speaker 1 (00:05:28) - Well, let's add some more. Consider affordability. Can people afford homes? Well, there is wage growth, which often lags home price growth in, you know, your wage growth. It often lags inflation until the latter part of an inflationary cycle like where we could be now. But let's look at what really happens. Most people don't buy property based on its price as much as its monthly payment. It's the affordability of that payment that most people are looking at. Today's mortgage rates, though, they don't feel low because of where we were a few years ago. Like I mentioned here on the show before, mortgage rates are still below their long run average of 7.7%. This is another important measure of how real estate prices in America today are not overpriced. But what I'm going to do now is turn the prism in another direction here so that the sunlight strikes it differently. Let's shine the light somewhere else, because we still have not adjusted for something extremely important. When you're valuing real estate or anything for that matter.


Speaker 1 (00:06:40) - Let's look at the attribute of quality. Yes, we need to adjust for quality since 1889. And. An ounce of gold is just still that same ounce of gold. Its physical properties have not changed one bit since the year 1889, which is one reason why it's a good measuring stick and why I brought it up earlier. But in 1889, let's look at real estate. It has changed to an astounding degree. A new Victorian style home back then had sparse amenities and perhaps 950ft². And yet that was a normal sized home back in that era. In 2023, a home average 2415ft² in today's home has features that would be considered unthinkable luxuries yesteryear like air conditioning, multiple bathrooms, quartz kitchen countertops and closets vast enough that you could play pickleball inside them so you're getting more, more home today. Between today's home size, lot size, amenities, and safety features, you can make the case that you're getting five x more, or perhaps even ten x more home than you were in 1889. And you're getting that perhaps even at a lower inflation adjusted price.


Speaker 1 (00:08:13) - And the more you realize all of this, you can increasingly validate asking the question, why are homes still so cheap in America today? And there are some other factors too. But all things considered, one can surely make the case that today's US residential real estate is not overpriced. It's cheap. As we're talking about the relative valuation of homes today. Here's a hint this plays into when I'll reveal Gary's 2024 home price depreciation forecast at the end of the show today, where I will pin the projected appreciation number down to the nearest whole percent for you. That's how exact we're going to get before we talk about residential real estate again. When we discuss how the Reds stole Christmas, let's discuss a niche of the commercial real estate market here that we've never discussed that Gary, before. And it's so interesting whether you are a sports fan like me or you're not. And that is stadiums. Yes, sports stadiums have a lot to do with urban real estate dynamics, and they're even more important amidst this struggling office sector that's already hollowing out parts of some downtowns.


Speaker 1 (00:09:30) - Well, the reason that I'm telling you about this with stadiums is that it looks like a new trend now. About 30 years ago, there was a trend toward having urban stadiums beginning to use these great city skylines or old historic buildings as backdrops. Everyone points to Camden Yards in Baltimore in the 1990s as kicking off the urban real estate ballpark trend. All right, we'll fast forward 30 years to today. Earlier this month, Ted Leonsis, the owner of the NBA's Wizards basketball team and the NHL's capitals hockey team, both in Washington, DC. They announced the deal to move both teams from downtown D.C. across state lines to Alexandria, Virginia, although at last check no official documents had been signed. So, yes, moving them out of the central city, the move looks like a huge win for Virginia. By the way, it's the most populous state without any big league sports teams. That's where the two teams could play. At the heart of a new proposed $2 billion, 12 acre entertainment complex as soon as 2028.


Speaker 1 (00:10:46) - But it is a huge bummer for the nation's capital. Yes, Washington, D.C. it has one of the highest rates of people working remotely in the US, so that hollows out the urban core. DC's once buzzing downtown is still struggling to recover post-Covid. Now, DC Mayor Muriel Bowser, who has made a last minute offer to Leonsis to keep the teams right there in the city, faces the potential loss of two major fan bases and a sports hub. It's right there in the city's Chinatown area. Yeah, this could be a new trend in stadiums in shaping the complexion of urban real estate. Now Leonsis is playing for Virginia. That really places him, among other billionaire franchise owners that want to build these massive entertainment complexes near their teams in order to capitalize on this growing synergy between sporting events and other nightlife and entertainment, and part of what's really going on here. Is the legalization and the spreading of sports gambling. That's the big prize that some other franchise owners are chasing a casino as part of this complex next to the stadium, and oftentimes you're going to have to move the team out of the city center to build these big multi acre complexes that will surround the sports stadium.


Speaker 1 (00:12:15) - Earlier this month, Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban he came one step closer to his dream of building a new Mavs arena in the middle of a resort and casino after he struck a deal to sell his majority stake of the team to a casino mogul named Miriam Adelson. In November, New York Mets owner Steve Cohen, along with hard Rock international, they proposed an $8 billion entertainment complex and casino to be built next to Citi Field. These are major urban projects, so this trend of sports complexes with casinos is really picking up in the nation, but not absolutely everywhere in Oklahoma City. There is an exception there. In OKC, voters approved a good old fashioned 1% sales tax for the next six years to fund the construction of a new downtown arena for the OKC Thunder, and with that agreement, the Thunder could stay in OKC through 2050. We're talking about how a trend worth tracking in urban real estate is stadiums leaving downtowns. Now, one reason that I often talk about the power of inflation ravaging most people's lives here on gray is because it's so bad that it means you need a second job.


Speaker 1 (00:13:36) - Yes, you do not in the traditional sense. But look, if you are, say, during the day, a corporate attorney or you're a financial systems analyst or you're a crab fisherman, why can't you just do a really good job at your day job in that position and then go home and at the end of the week, call it good enough? Why can't you just do that? Well, you cannot do that because if you're being paid in dollars, your second job is learning how to invest those dollars at a rate higher than inflation. Otherwise, your prosperity gets diminished in your one quality of life and one set of opportunities are going to suffer. That's why inflation makes a second job a necessity. So your second job is investing. The other reason that I often discuss this topic is because, as we know, real estate helps you profit from inflation three ways at the same time. Two weeks ago I told you that if you want to learn more about how that works with the Inflation Triple Crown, that you can go to get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:14:46) - Com slash Triple Crown to watch my free three part video series, I did that because I've described the inflation Triple Crown here on the show before, and I don't want to be too repetitive, but seeing that it is an enduring great principle. I've got a new way to explain this to you. Whether you're a long time listener or a newer one, then you're going to get some perspective out of this. I think you're really going to like it. What we're going to do is let's look here at four groups of people and see how much they benefit from or lose to inflation. We're going to view this through a real estate lens. Let's go from the worst off group to the best off group. And then what you can do is see which one of these four groups you belong to. The first group are the poor. They don't own any property and therefore they don't benefit from inflation one bit. This first group, the poor, their grocery and energy expenses are exacerbated by inflation, but yet they have no assets to benefit from it if they have a job.


Speaker 1 (00:15:54) - But the poor tend to have the job type wage that lags inflation, so the poor lose to inflation. The second group. So getting a little better off as we move through here. They are the primary residence homeowner with a paid off mortgage. So they benefit from one crown of the inflation triple Crown, yet they are better off. Two of every five homeowners have a paid off mortgage, just like this second group does here. And if there's 10% inflation over, oh, a couple years, well then there are 500 K home price floats up to 550 K and now they got 10% more dollars. But each one's worth 10% less. So at least they didn't lose purchasing power. But they are right back where they started. So this homeowner with the paid off mortgage does not profit from inflation. They are merely hedged. Then we have the third group out of four. This third group is homeowners. Again, just primary residence owners with a mortgage. Yep. They're actually better off than Group two with the paid off mortgage.


Speaker 1 (00:17:04) - Just in terms of who benefits from inflation. So like the second group, 10% inflation makes this third group's 500 K home rise to 550 K. But this mortgaged homeowner has another benefit. There are 400 K mortgage on this property, gets water down to just 360 K of inflation adjusted debt. And that is because inflation makes salaries and wages and prices and rents float higher, making the debt easier to pay back over time. Banks and lenders don't ask you to repay them with inflation adjusted debt, they will accept your diluted future dollars. It's like they got you locked in to a contract that was good for you years earlier. That effect is called debt debasement. And this is why this third group now benefits from two crowns as primary residence homeowner with the mortgage. And then come on, you know who this fourth group is? The coup de gras landing, the deathblow to inflation because they really make out in profit, benefiting from all three crowns. This fourth group owns income property with a mortgage. If you listen to this show, you're constantly trying to add more income property with a mortgage.


Speaker 1 (00:18:30) - And that's precisely what we hope you do here in gray. And this fourth group has both asset inflation like the second group and the debt debasement benefit like the third group. And additionally the rent income will outpace inflation enriching them. Now listen to this part closely for just a minute or two because the math is simple. But there are a few numbers here. Say you begin with $2,000 of monthly rent income on your rental property, minus your $1,200 mortgage, -$600 of expenses. That's $200 a monthly positive cash flow left over. All right. We're going to add 10% inflation on all that. And this inflation could happen in one year or over a number of years like magic. Now you've got $2,200 of rent income up from 2000 minus that same $1,200 mortgage balance because it stays fixed, -$660 of expenses, up from 600. All right. You're now left with $340 of cash flow. That's up from 200 bucks before the inflation. Do you understand the significance of this? Do you see how you're really on the superhighway to financial freedom? This is big because the mortgage principal and interest payment stays fixed with just 10% inflation.


Speaker 1 (00:19:58) - You just saw the money you feel in your pocket each month skyrocket from $200 to $340. In that example, that's 70% more income, 70% more. Extrapolate that effect across your entire rental portfolio. Wow. That is called cash flow enhancement. The third and final crown of the inflation Triple Crown. You just won all three with a loan on an income property. And hey, congratulations. If you caught that and you would have had to skip back to listen again, you are really on your way to understanding a path for creating wealth in your life. Now. I sure kept that example general in order to simplify things. And also some people span multiple groups. For example, poor people in terms of income could still be homeowners. Let's review what you just learned there. With inflation in real estate, the poor lose paid off, homeowners hedge, mortgaged homeowners hedge in profit mortgages income property owners hedge profit and increase income. So look and this is kind of weird. Once you've got income property, you might notice that the price for a pound of salmon rises from 1599 up to 1899, or that a Ford F-150 truck price spikes from 50 K up to 55 K over time, these could actually be strangely positive signs.


Speaker 1 (00:21:40) - It's a soft indicator that your real estate wealth is growing, though people would think you're nuts. I mean, you might secretly start. Rooting for inflation as avidly as an NFL Philadelphia Eagles Tailgater. Now, I'm not really sure if you'll pump your fist after the first time that you pay 12 bucks for a gallon of gas. We'll see about that. Well, hey, now that you've done the hard learning coming up straight ahead, a little more entertaining here how the rent stole Christmas and the anticipated 2024 Jerry housing price appreciation forecast. I'm Keith Weiner. You're listening to episode 481 of get Rich education. Role under the specific expert with income property, you need Ridge lending Group and MLS for 256. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four Plex's. Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge personally. They'll even customize a plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Ridge lending


Speaker 1 (00:23:00) - You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2 jobs income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, 686, six.


Speaker 3 (00:24:04) - This is Ridge Lending Group's president, Shale Ridge. Listen to get Rich education with Keith Wine.


Speaker 3 (00:24:10) - Hold and remember don't quit your daydream.


Speaker 1 (00:24:22) - Welcome back to get Rich education. I'm your host, Keith Reinhold. Be friendly, not friends. Those four words are the best concise guidance for how a landlord should keep their relationship with tenants. But there's a persistent school of thought out there among some in the general public. And it is that landlords are greedy. Landlords like you even want rent on January 1st. Who do you think you are, the Grinch that stole Christmas? Well, as a landlord, of course, you should maintain open lines of communication with your tenants if you're also managing them. When it comes to things like those top priorities, I mean repair and maintenance issues. But when I've had conversations with tenants and by the way, I don't anymore, my property managers do. Let me share with you some pieces that I have gently inserted into my conversations with tenants in regard to rent collection. This has done a lot to ensure timely payments, and they've always known then that my intent is not to steal Christmas.


Speaker 1 (00:25:37) - I see a lot of tenants. They're smart people, but they just don't understand your situation as an income property owner, often with a mortgage on your rental property, many tenants think that you just take their rent payment of, say, $1,800 and that that money is all yours for, say, a big Hawaiian vacation. You and I both know that most of that rent income is spoken for and already passed along for your expenses. One thing that you can tell tenants is, I have a big mortgage on this property to pay every month. That's what you tell them. Younger tenants are less likely to know this at all. Another thing that you can say is 90 to 95% of the rent goes toward all the property expenses, which are always going up. Yeah. I mean, these are your mortgage, insurance, property tax, maintenance, repairs, turnover, utilities and more. That's what I've called mortgage plus vim. Tom expenses, vim Thomas vacancy insurance, maintenance, taxes, utilities and management. Yeah.


Speaker 1 (00:26:47) - Even with the decently cash flowing mortgage rental, this statement is true. 90 to 95% of that rent is gone. It's not yours. Another thing you can tell tenants is I'll be in debt all my life. That's another thing you can mention. And of course, you and I both know that that's good debt. Another thing that you can say to tenants, and really, this is just something else that could be said to broader society that thinks that landlords are greedy. And you can say this, I build up my credit score, made a big down payment and put my money at risk. That's what you say? Yep. Ian, you did all this to provide good housing to strangers. How is that greedy? You can also just simply say I don't have a 401 K, and the more you listen to this show, the more you would ask yourself, why would you want one? And I'll leave you with this last one. I must constantly maintain this property. That's what you say, and you should constantly maintain that property.


Speaker 1 (00:27:52) - Now, you probably only need to bring up 1 or 2 of those sentences with tenants. The best time for you to do it is actually. Just before they're officially attendants. Say those things right at the beginning of the relationship. When you're just reviewing the lease, when you're going over that with them and they're about to sign that initial lease. Or you could also mention this months later when they pay the ongoing rent. So this is about your ongoing tenant relations. So they understand your situation. They're going to know that you're a human and you have your own set of issues in financial obligations and you have to take care of. And it's always about telling the truth. Only a Grinch would lie during the holidays. So it's always about being honest and informative. And, you know, with all of that said, it is somewhat of a paradox that all of this can be true. And yet at the same time, strategically bought property is so profitable on your side and see with your tenants, this is not the optimum time to wax poetic about how financially free beats debt free.


Speaker 1 (00:29:04) - Yes, it's really remarkable that all these statements can be true, even if 90 to 95% of your written income goes toward your mortgage and operating expenses, all while real estate pays five ways at the same time. And now they'll know that the rent they pay is not the rent. It's still Christmas, and you sure are not the Grinch. Let me prepare you for Gary's National Home Price Appreciation Forecast for 2024. First things first how well have past predictions performed? Well, let's take a look at this using the Nars number of median existing single family home prices. Understand that the forecast that I make here is always made near the end of the year, prior to the year forecast. It's all done ahead of time and unlike a lot of agencies, we don't revise our forecast later. It's all set in stone before the forecast year begins in late 2021. Recall that we had just come off a year there, 2021, when national home prices were up 20%, and some people predicted that prices would fall in 2022.


Speaker 1 (00:30:12) - Oh no. I let you know in late 2021 that home prices were going to rise a healthy 9 to 10% for 2022. That was the forecasts made at the time, and the result was 10%. Then late last year, you had more agencies predict that prices would fall. I let you know. I did not see how with such low housing supply and some of the other reasons. So I forecast 0% for this year. Yeah. Forecast, no gain, no loss. And as far as the result there it is too early to know yet. The year isn't done. All right. We'll build some context here as I make the reveal the forecast for next year. How about other agencies. What are they forecasting for next year. At last check, the NBA mortgage Bankers Association says home prices will rise 4%. Fannie Mae 3%, Freddie Mac 3%. The HP's. That is the home price expectation survey. They forecast 2% appreciation. Goldman Sachs also 2%. The Na 1%. Zillow 0%. -2%.


Speaker 1 (00:31:23) - If you take all of those and average them, you get a forecast of about 1.5% appreciation for next year. I'll tell you as we lead up to our forecast here, I'll let you know that it is not that close to the 1.5% average from those agencies. And none of those figures understand, including mine, are inflation adjusted. So nominal prices. All right. Well let's look at what we use to determine the trajectory of home prices. How is housing supply looking. We know demand is strong. Well with the fed active listing count data that I usually use where the normal supply is 1.5 million units or more will. The current amount is about 750,000. So it has rebounded somewhat, but it's still less than half of what's needed. And this dearth of supply supports more upward prices. Let's look at interest rates. Recent developments from the last fed meeting show us that Jerome Powell does not plan to put a rate hike lump of coal in your Christmas stocking now or anytime soon. Everyone wants to talk about how far rates are going to fall next year.


Speaker 1 (00:32:40) - But here's the thing to remember. Like I've discussed before, mortgage rates hardly matter when it comes to prices. They don't have much to do with housing prices at all, and I've discussed why a few times before. In short, that is because when rates rise, yes, it hurts affordability, but rates also rise when the fed is trying to cool a hot economy in that hot economy is what helps prices. Conversely, when rates fall, it helps affordability. But unemployment is higher and we might be in a recession when rates are falling and that constrains upward prices. You know something even real estate agents in the certification course, they have to take in those ongoing agent continuing education classes. They're taught that higher mortgage rates mean falling prices, but yet in reality, they almost never do. Just look at history. She she don't have to look any further than the last few years. Rates tripled and prices rose anyway. So when an agent prepares a CMA, a comparative market analysis for a client, agents are taught to consider mortgage rates with CMAs because higher rates put downward pressure on house prices.


Speaker 1 (00:33:58) - Yeah. Agents are taught that mortgage rates determine buying power, but they aren't taught the entire economic picture like I just briefly explained. So the point is that the direction of mortgage rates are not completely, but they're actually largely irrelevant in forecasting prices. Four out of every ten homeowners in this nation are free and clear with no mortgage. And among those that do have a mortgage 62. None of them still have a rate under 4%. All right. So if mortgage rates do drop next year from 7% to 6%, it still doesn't become that attractive for those homeowners locked in at that really low rate to sell. And yet if rates do fall to 6%, you're going to have a larger buyer pool because more people can now qualify to buy a home. Looking at the broader economy. Jobs are still being added, but many are part time jobs and GDP growth is strong. Unemployment is under 4%, CPI inflation, that's near 3%. So I'm not going to be full speed ahead with a huge number for next year's appreciation rate, because the economy, it still has a pretty substantial chance of slowing down because all these pass rate increases, lag effects could show, but that won't totally break the economy.


Speaker 1 (00:35:22) - And note something Fannie, Freddie, and FHA, they all announced higher conforming loan limits for 2024, and that's because they expect that more home price appreciation is coming. And I do too. We're a show about rental income. So what do I forecast? Prices rather than rents anyway? Well, there's a few reasons rents are more stable, so there's not as much to talk about that 15% year over year rent increase from last year that is seriously atypical. Also, as you are leveraged, you're going to get more overall gain from price appreciation than you do rents. As everything that I discussed and more has been weighed and analyzed in sprinkling in the spice of my personal experience as a direct real estate investor, I am happy to report to you here on the last show of the year that my expected home price appreciation rate for next year is 4%. Yes, a pretty historically normal 4% for next year. As the forecasts for the previous couple years, they saw more anomalous numbers, of course. What's that mean to you, the savvy leveraged investor? If you make a 25% down payment on a property, meaning you're leveraged 4 to 1 as best I can see it, you will then have a 16% return on your invested capital.


Speaker 1 (00:36:51) - Just as one of up to five ways that you're simultaneously paid. Increasingly, people make investment decisions based on the forecast any reasonable person should know. But I then be remiss not to remind you that this is a forecast, not a guarantee. Is this is the last show of the year. I trust that you've got even more to be grateful for than the expected 4% home price appreciation. I am sincerely grateful to have you as a listener this week, every week, and for another year here, as I'm sure you'll understand that I recorded this episode a few days before Christmas so that I could have a free and clear holiday. Best wishes on the remainder of your holiday season. I'll be back next week. Right on cue to talk about investing in a new way that you've never thought about before. May all of your New Year's resolutions be as successful as the home price forecast. Uh, until then, happy holidays to you and yours. I'm Keith Reinhold. Don't quit your daydream.


Speaker 4 (00:37:56) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice.


Speaker 4 (00:38:00) - Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 1 (00:38:24) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich

Direct download: GREepisode481_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

Most people float through life without direction. You must get clarity of focus before you can even begin setting goals.

Robert Helms of The Real Estate Guys, a professional real estate investor, reveals a framework for goal-setting. 

Goals should be SMART—Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevant, and Time-Based.

I provide examples of two athletic goals that I failed to achieve this year.

It’s vital to surround yourself with the right people.

Goals should be written down. It helps to set intermediate benchmarks within the goal.

It’s difficult to stretch more than 50% from year-to-year. Keep the goal achievable.

Is your life destined or is your life made? Our recent Instagram Poll result is that 75% chose “destined”, 25% “made”.

You can attend the highly-rated Goals Retreat, hosted by Robert Helms, January 12th to 14th in Dallas, Texas.

You’ll learn how to get clear on who you really are and really want to be, then set goals.


Setting Goals and Achieving Growth (00:02:40)

Keith Weinhold discusses the importance of setting clear goals and the need to step out of one's comfort zone for personal growth.

The Influence of Others on Goal Setting (00:08:01)

Robert Helms emphasizes the impact of surrounding oneself with the right people and being strategic about the influences in one's life.

The SMART Goal Framework (00:09:44)

Keith Weinhold mentions the SMART goal framework as a well-known framework for setting goals and achieving success.

Setting SMART Goals (00:10:03)

The speaker discusses the SMART goal framework and how it helps in setting specific, measurable, attainable, relevant, and time-based goals.

The Importance of Specific and Measurable Goals (00:11:08)

The speaker emphasizes that goals need to be specific and measurable in order to track progress and determine success.

Breaking Down Outcome Goals into Activity Goals (00:13:56)

The speaker explains the importance of breaking down outcome goals into specific steps or activity goals to make them more achievable and actionable.

Discover Your Destiny (00:19:40)

Discussion on the belief in destiny and the importance of clarity in goal setting.

Success Stories (00:21:14)

Examples of individuals who have achieved success and life satisfaction through goal setting and clarity.

The Importance of Clarity (00:26:30)

The significance of clarity in goal setting and the initial steps to take before setting goals.

The assessment of personal skills (00:28:38)

Discussion on the importance of assessing one's skills and areas for improvement in personal development.

The goals retreat (00:30:12)

Information about an in-person event called the goals retreat, where participants can focus on setting and achieving their goals.

The structure of the goals retreat (00:30:59)

Details about the schedule and activities of the goals retreat, including journaling, answering questions, and turning goals into action plans.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Attend the Jan. 12th-14th Goals Retreat:

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. 

You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

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Complete episode transcript:


Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Today's episode is rated PG for personal growth. Most people just float through life with hopes and wishes that are never realized, because they never turned those ambitions into concrete goals. How do you get clarity of mission, vision, and values before you set the right goals for yourself? It's a transformative episode today with a terrific guest on get Rich education. When you want the best real estate and finance info. The modern internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls. And you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies. Disclaimers are. At no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life? See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple. Text grey to 66866. And when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course completely free.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:18) - It's called the Don't Quit Your Day dream letter and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text grey to 66866. Text grey 266866.


Corey Coates (00:01:36) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:52) - Welcome to GRE! From Toms River, New Jersey, to Hood River, Oregon, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold and you are tuned in to get rich education. Now, why do you live the almost same routine that you live day in and day out? How are you spending your highest order in finite resource of your time? Maybe you're intentional, and maybe you don't really enjoy shoveling your snow or mowing your lawn all that much, but you do it just because it's the way that you've always done things, but at the cost of what higher order activities could you instead fill with that time? And that's exactly what a lot of people have never explored. I know that today's guest and I both admire the Robert Heinlein quote.


Keith Weinhold (00:02:40) - In the absence of clearly defined goals, we become strangely loyal to performing daily trivia until ultimately we become enslaved by it. One other axiom that I find so frustratingly inconvenient, because it's simultaneously true, is that your growth happens outside of your comfort zone. So then you've got to get comfortable being uncomfortable. And once you do enough of that, you'll become so enamored of growth that you'll soon find yourself being uncomfortable when you get comfortable. The best version of you. It means constantly disrupting yourself. Well that's disruptive. Now, within real estate, I've had various goals, and you might too. If you work at a dissatisfying day job, you might have a passive cash flow goal through real estate so that you can replace your job income. That's a pretty common one. Now, when I made my first ever property, that first fourplex, I didn't have much of a financial goal then. I just knew that I was effectively living for free, supplemented by the other three rent incomes. And when I first bought that building, I didn't even know what cashflow meant.


Keith Weinhold (00:03:57) - But once I did snowballing my cash flows became a goal until I could use that to replace my day job. Once that was achieved, the goal became how many doors can I control? Because that's a measure of service and influence. And today, one strong real estate goal is reaching more people like you with this very show right here today, we're talking to an expert at setting goals and helping you live the life that you were meant to live. He has had a deep influence on me and my growth. In fact, if it weren't for him, Jerry might not even exist and you would not have even heard of me. That's how much. Let's talk about setting and achieving goals to get the outcome that you want for your life. Today's guest is a professional real estate investor with experience in nine states and six nations, and I have toured some of that property with him in person internationally. He is also taught real estate practices and appraisal at the college level, but you might know him as the host of the nationally syndicated radio show The Real Estate Guys, now in its 27th year of broadcast.


Keith Weinhold (00:05:10) - You know that I've recommended that show to you, the listener, today. It's great to give a warm welcome back to Robert Helms.


Robert Helms (00:05:19) - Hey, Keith. So good to see you.


Keith Weinhold (00:05:21) - Robert. It's good to see you too. But we're not here today to talk so much about real estate, because a lot of people use real estate to fuel their other goals in life outside the real estate world, you brought a keen awareness to the fact that most people just kind of go floating through life without any real direction. And I think we're all aware, Robert, that there is a gap between who we are and the most that we can be. So can you talk to us about how finding our trajectory can perhaps be an exercise in connecting these dots that we call goals?


Robert Helms (00:05:58) - Yeah, I love this topic, as you know, because if we're left to our own devices, human nature is we're just going to bounce from thing to thing, like a boat without a rudder. And we get excited about something and it's a shiny object and we go off and pursue that.


Robert Helms (00:06:11) - And maybe real estate is that thing for you. And then, you know, you've got all the rest of your life to contend with. And whether you're a full time real estate investor or a part time real estate investor, I've found that one of the great keys to be able to discipline yourself, to do the things necessary to get the results you want in your life, is to set goals. And goal setting is pretty simple, but at the same time, it's almost alarmingly simple because if it seems too easy, people don't do it right. And the crux of goal setting is to figure out what you want, and then put that down in a way that you can be driven towards the things you have to do to make those things happen.


Keith Weinhold (00:06:52) - Maybe before we talk more about ourselves and what each of us really wants, maybe we can talk about what we don't want. And so many of us, me included, are influenced in life by the people that we surround ourselves with. You and I are both familiar with the quote from the late business philosopher Jim Rohn.


Keith Weinhold (00:07:11) - You are the average of the five people that you spend the most time with. A lot of people probably wouldn't like to admit it, but the statistics are kind of alarming with how much time one spends around their co-workers versus how much time spends around their family and friends, and with influences from co-workers. And that temptation to maybe just go with the flow. You know, it's pretty interesting because your coworkers are not chosen by you. They're chosen by your employer. Now, maybe that's good because it opens you up to a new set of ideas and a new context for your life, and that might adjust the goals you set. But then on the other side, if you don't have that and you don't have those coworkers, maybe those coworkers can help keep you out of one think silo and just thinking all the same way. So you talk to us about the influences of other people in one's lives. As you think about the life that you want to create for yourself.


Robert Helms (00:08:01) - This is such an important topic. I'm glad you bring it up at the beginning here because it is subtle, right? We don't get shoved off course.


Robert Helms (00:08:10) - We get nudged off course little by little by little. One of those five people you spend the most time with says, hey, let's go out drinking Friday night. And you were thinking, well, I was going to work on a podcast or a chapter on my book, or I was going to, okay, I'll just go out drinking and before you know it, like, that's not a bad decision. You get to spend time hanging out and there's some time in your life you want to be able to hang out with friends. But I think it's important that you become very strategic about your time. Time is a zero sum game, and it's also the most interesting resource because once this minute is gone, it's never coming back. What we do with this minute, we get a chance to do once, whether that's an hour, a day, a week. But at the same time, what happens after this minute? Well, another one and another month and another week. And so time can get away from you.


Robert Helms (00:08:58) - And if you're strategic about it, this is the key to success. Just spending time with people that have you going places, having you looking at your future, excited about what's happening now, you know, you mentioned your coworkers and you don't get to pick them. And that's true. But that's true about your family too. So you don't want to just write off your family. But let's face it, we probably all have negative people in our lives, whether it's friends, lifelong friends, people from college, but sometimes people in our family. So it's not that you don't spend any time with those people. It's your strategic about how and where you spend time with those folks. And the influences in our life probably have more impact on how well we do in life than any other factor.


Keith Weinhold (00:09:44) - We talk about being strategic and intentional with goal setting. There isn't a have you here today is because you're an expert in helping people set goals and help define a mission for their life, so I'm sure a lot of people, Robert, have come to you with a pretty well known framework for setting goals, called the Smart Goal Framework.


Keith Weinhold (00:10:03) - That's an acronym that stands for the fact that goals should be specific, measurable, attainable, relevant, and time based. So now I do think about the Smart goal framework before I set a goal, but I'm sure not to muddy up goals with a mission and all personalizes for a moment to give a good example for the audience. Robert, you can let me know what you think about this. And this is something outside of real estate investing. But when it comes to physical training, I have this mission of longevity and lean musculature. But to me, that's only a mission because it's kind of fuzzy and hazy. And then I have goals within that. For example, I had a couple goals within that. This year. I failed at them both. By the way. One was to be under £180 by June 1st, and the other was to run uphill up this trail in under 40 minutes by the end of the season. To me, those two things were goals, the body weight in the running, both of which I failed at within this broader mission of longevity and lean musculature.


Keith Weinhold (00:11:02) - So what are your thoughts about the Smart Goal Framework? Does that help people set goals and get them where they want to be?


Robert Helms (00:11:08) - Yeah, 100%, because just wanting something like, I want to be healthier or I want to be richer, those are great sentiments, but those aren't goals. What makes it a goal is the things you mentioned in the Smart framework works great. There's kind of the 101, which is if you've never set goals before, there's three things to focus on. The first is that a goal has to be specific and measurable. If you can't measure it, you don't know whether or not you hit it. So when you talk about something like your health and being lean, well, there's a couple of metrics in there. Percentage of body fat is a number and it's measurable how much weight you want to gain or lose is a number. And it's measurable. So that will help you instead of just I want to be lean. It's how lean do I want to be. And of course you might seek some counsel in that regard, either from a trainer or a doctor or someone to say, what's a good, healthy weight for me and so on.


Robert Helms (00:12:00) - So that's the specific part, which is also measurable. I kind of put that in as one thing, and the second is having a time deadline, a time limit or a deadline. So the best way to think of those two things is how much buy win, and your example of being able to do a specific amount of time metric by a certain date. That's exactly right, specific and measurable and with a time limit. And then the third thing is that to be effective, goals have to be written down. If you don't write down your goals, they're worth the paper they're written on. And it's not just so you won't forget. It's that something magical happens when we take pen to paper and writing it down. Using your computer, keyboard or voice to text is not the same as getting a good old fashioned pen or pencil and writing out your goals. Now that's the 101 write to take it. Beyond that, there are some few things in the smart model. It's either attainable or achievable for the A, and what that means is it has to be somewhat realistic.


Robert Helms (00:13:03) - You don't want to put limits on yourself, but if you say, well, you know, Robert, I made $50,000 this year and next year I'm going to make 5 million. Okay, well that's possible. People do that. There are people that go from 50,000 to 5 million. It's just not very likely. So unless you have some information that would show why that would happen, a much better way to think about it is how much can I stretch and still make the goal? If you made $50,000 a year for the last three years, Zig Ziglar says you can stretch to about 50% $75,000. That's a stretch, but it's realistic. So that's the attainable part, and it is a great framework. Now the other part, which is awesome when you're talking about how do I affect what I'm going to do. This is the crux of golf setting. There are two types of goals. If we were to narrow it down, there are outcome goals. That's how it's going to be at the end.


Robert Helms (00:13:56) - And then an even more important there are activity goals. So let's say you're in real estate sales and you want to sell 20 houses in 2024. That's a great goal. That's an outcome goal. At the end of 2024, I want to have listed and sold 20 houses. Okay, so January 2nd, when you get back, you know from your celebrating January 1st, what do you do? It's nebulous to say, well, gosh, to get to 20 houses by the end of the year. So what you do is you break down those 20 houses, that outcome goal into the specific steps necessary, and it would be different depending on every goal, right? It would be different for health than it was for relationships, than it was for your income. But to use this example, you might say, well, in order to sell 20 houses. Maybe I have to list 30 houses. Okay. To list 30 houses, I have to talk to 60 people. Okay, well, to talk to 60 people, I got to get 200 people on my list and so on and so forth.


Robert Helms (00:14:56) - Until you break it down to the actual activity, you can do January 2nd. So it might look like this. On January 2nd, I have to talk to four new people. I have to send out emails or letters or postcards to ten new people. And if I do that, if I do those two things, following the numbers all the way to the end of the year, that should result in my 20 houses. Now, how do you know what those numbers are? That's from your practice. You've done this before. If you're brand new in the business, you would get counsel from folks that are already doing that. Back to the five people you spend the most time with, right? Surround yourself with folks that have already done what you want to do, and then break down the outcome goal into the activities necessary to achieve the goal.


Keith Weinhold (00:15:40) - Oh, this is great step by step guidance. After I knew I failed at those two goals I shared with you, Artemis tried to reassure myself and tell myself that, well, you know, a lot of people don't even set concrete goals, so I ought to be okay about it because I've definitely ended up more fit.


Keith Weinhold (00:15:54) - But then at the same time, I don't always want to be comparing myself to normalcy or that's just a recipe for mediocrity. But maybe just here, as the introductory beginner goal setter that I am, I would have been more successful had I written them down, and had I made more intermediate steps in order to reach those two goals that I told you about? So I learned a little something there. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, with Robert Helms of the Real Estate Guys. More on goals when we come back. You're listening to get Rich education. Render this a specific expert with income property, you need Ridge Lending Group and MLS for 256. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four plex's. Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge. Personally, though, even customized plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Ridge lending You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%.


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Keith Weinhold (00:18:27) - Welcome back to get Rich education. We're talking with Robert Helms of the Real Estate Guys about goals or not talking so much about real estate today because many people use real estate in order to fuel their other goals in life.


Keith Weinhold (00:18:40) - So many people just go floating through life without many goals. I could do a better job with my goal framework myself, as I think you just learned there, Robert. I think some people, they might be dismissive of goals because some people have the mindset where they're thinking, well, I'm just ordained to live a life like this, or I'm just destined to live a life like this. I don't know that our audience necessarily thinks that way, but I'd like to get your input on this. We recently had an Instagram poll over on our Instagram page, and the poll was simple are you destined or are you made? And 75% of respondents chose that they are made rather than that they are destined. So what are your thoughts with regard to that as we set goals for this trajectory in our life?


Robert Helms (00:19:28) - That is a world class question. We always say, if you want great answers, you have to ask great questions. And that's a great question and something people don't think about. There are folks that believe that they are completely self-made and that it's up to them.


Robert Helms (00:19:40) - If it's to be, it's up to me and I completely respect that. And then there are folks that believe that no something is written on my heart. Something tugs towards me. I have a destiny. I have a life work that I need to pursue, and I respect that as well. So we for years have done an annual goal setting retreat that we call Create Your Future. But people wrestle with this, and I kind of witnessed the same thing. About three quarters of the people resonate with Create Your Future. But the very first evening of the event, I also submit to the attendees that if you feel called, if you feel like I have a destiny, but I'm not clear about it, then I just suggest that they reframe the entire event by the original title we use, which was Discover Your Destiny. So whether you believe that there is a destiny, a calling for you, or you've got to figure it out, this process of thinking about your goals, breaking them down to action steps, making sure they're in alignment with your vision, having that mission that you talked about, right.


Robert Helms (00:20:45) - All those things will serve you kind of either way.


Keith Weinhold (00:20:49) - Yeah, that's a rather deep existential question that I think some people need to figure out, I would imagine, before they develop their goals. So now that we've talked about mission and goals somewhat, Robert, can you tell us about some of your more successful people and some real success cases you've seen with people that have actually achieved goals and gotten this life satisfaction about becoming the most that they can be?


Robert Helms (00:21:14) - I love that the reason I keep doing this part of my life is because of the results people get. It's absolutely astounding. We've watched people go from modest means to incredible success, and not just monetarily, although that certainly happened. One of my favorites is a young gentleman who was dragged along to this, the goal setting event we do every year by his dad. His dad had been through a four years, brought his son and his son was kind of lackadaisical, had a job that paid okay, but he was living in a home. He was £50 overweight, just kind of plodding through life.


Robert Helms (00:21:51) - After three years. This guy was a brand new guy and he has completely changed his life. He's fit as can be. He found the woman of his dreams, which was something he thought might never happen. He's no longer working at a job that he just deals with. He loves his career like everything has changed and he gives credit to that, to finding this clarity. So here's the essence of goal setting. Your two best friends are clarity and focus. You have to get clear on exactly specifically what you want and the steps to get there. Most people are not clear. They're vague, they're nebulous. They kind of know what they want to do, but they aren't sure. And so you need a process to help you uncover and get that clarity. And then once you have that clarity, focus, right? Tracy says. And this is a deep one. All of life is the study of attention. What you think about comes about, said Earl Nightingale. And so the point is, what if we focus on something? Think about in your life, you've had some experience that's been successful.


Robert Helms (00:22:59) - It's probably because you put a lot of focus into that, a lot of attention. Sure. I remember all those years ago when we were talking about, hey, you said, I'm thinking about starting a podcast, and I'm like, awesome, right? And I was encouraging of it. I was thrilled you'd thought you'd already recorded a couple episodes. Yeah. And so many guys or gals come up and say they want to start a podcast, and most never do. But because you had the passion for it and you were committed to it and you did all the hard work, right? Those first several episodes where you got six or 7 or 10 listeners, you can't get to the first million until you get to the first ten. And this is what life is. It's focusing on the things that you want in your life. Instead of spending our focused time on distractions, things that the advertisers in our life want us to do, things that those friends that maybe like us but don't necessarily have our best interests at heart.


Robert Helms (00:23:54) - They want us to come to you. So there's a lot to figuring out who you want to be when you grow up. But if you'll take the time to figure that out and then work towards it, it's extraordinary what can happen now as far as success stories, I'll tell one more story because this is a reality check. It's not all happy high notes four years ago. At the end of the Create Your Future Goals retreat, I had a gentleman come up to me, pretty well-known guy, and so I won't mention who it is. But he said, Robert, you don't know this about me, but you saved my marriage this weekend. He said, I came with my wife. She was really reluctant to come. We were on the verge of divorce and we spent our time to separate parts of the room. But as you recommended, we came together Saturday night for dinner and we just connected like we haven't in years. And I saw this guy a couple weeks ago thrilled with his marriage, with everything that's like, awesome.


Robert Helms (00:24:49) - Now, I have to tell you, the other part of the story, which is that same evening, I talked to another gentleman who came up to me and he said, I'd like to talk to you about something. My wife and I came to this event and we both played full out, and we took all the notes and we really got clear on on what we want to have and be and do in our lives. And we've made the decision that we're going to get a divorce. I'm like, wow. So here's my point. If that was in their trajectory, if the best thing for them really was to separate, like, how soon would you want to know that versus the other couple that for all those reasons, they have strife and challenges in their marriage, but when they really looked at who they were and who they were becoming, they figured out they were much stronger together. So all that to say that when you get into the tough stuff, right, that squishy part of your heart and your soul, that stuff will come up for you.


Robert Helms (00:25:42) - You know, at the event, we put Kleenex out everywhere and people are like, what is a cold going around? Like, no, you. May need this. You may not. But I will tell you most people, if to get it done right, you have to be emotional because emotion is what will create motion, and that motion in your life will change your life.


Keith Weinhold (00:26:01) - Well, you talked about how clarity is an early step and wow, that's astounding for a couple to get the clarity that they want, amend things or a couple to get the clarity that they should end things. So we talked about goals kind of the back end and everyone knows what goals are. But kind of on that front end in the clarity, in winnowing down toward your goals. Can you speak to us more about that clarity piece? Because really, I think that's what a lot of people lack, because it probably takes some real vision.


Robert Helms (00:26:30) - Boy sure does. And it's the part I think, that people don't teach.


Robert Helms (00:26:33) - So the simple part of goal setting, you know, the Smart goals that works, but it it assumes you already know what you want. And so at our workshop the first day, we don't spend a minute on goal setting. And people are like, isn't this a goal setting workshop? Yeah, there's a whole bunch of stuff you have to do before you can set goals, right? And so I'll give the listeners some nuggets. The first is to get clear on who you are. Now, that sounds too vague and too big of a question, but specifically your principles and values that govern your life. And I've discovered that most people have about a half a dozen. There's about a half a dozen things that you value that really, really matter to you. And I don't even want to prime the pump. I don't even want to put words out. So people jump into that. Oh yeah, that sounds good. Instead, you have to spend some time alone or with some awesome music, or how whatever's best for you to get in that state, and then really delve deep on to the things that matter in your life.


Robert Helms (00:27:36) - What principles guide your life? What's super important to you? If you could only have 2 or 3 things in your life, what would they be? And then you start to get clear on really what matters. Because most of us are busy. We're busy doing all kinds of different things. And busy is not necessarily the path to success. Sometimes you have to take things off your plate in order to do more. As we like to say, you have to say no to the good in order to say yes to the great right. And most busy people really need to do some changes in that regard. First, the things that maybe you've been doing but you really aren't suited to or you don't enjoy doing, you offload those things. You learn how to delegate some of that. And then if you can spend time thinking through what matters to you as a person independent of real estate or your career, or even your family life, just the values and principles that guide you now you start to open up to that clarity, and then we take you through a whole bunch of exercises to imagine what life would be.


Robert Helms (00:28:38) - And, you know, pay attention to things that you are good at. Most people don't give themselves enough credit for their skill sets, and there's two schools of thought in personal development getting better as a person. One is I'm going to do an assessment and this is really important, do an assessment of where you're at. And as Jim Collins said in his book, Good to Great, confront the Brutal facts. If you're messing up somewhere, admit it. This is just between you and yourself, right? So admit where things aren't going. So are where maybe you're not as skilled as you like to be, or you don't have the experience that you want. And then you take an assessment of the places that you're pretty good at. You know, we don't like to pat ourselves on the back publicly, but in the privacy of your own mind, figure out, hey, there are some things that I'm skilled at. Either I have learned and developed the skill. I'm naturally drawn towards a behavior that's positive, whatever that might be for you, and then school of thought number one is I'm going to look at all the things I'm not very good at and try to get better at them.


Robert Helms (00:29:37) - And if I do that, that'll make me a better person. And that's true. The second school of thought is I'm going to do the same exact assessment, except I'm going to look at the things that I'm really good at and I'm going to design my life. So that's what I spend my time doing and the things I'm not good at. I find out how to have somebody else do those things. You can probably tell from my energy that's the school of thought I subscribe to, but both will work. But if you will focus on your unique talents and gifts and those things you are destined to be, then that's how you become the next best version of you.


Keith Weinhold (00:30:12) - Oh, these are key pieces in finding the clarity that you need to go ahead and set goals. We all become victims of weapons of mass destruction. Robert. Oftentimes I joke about how I can't believe how much stuff I get done when my iPhone is over on the charger because I can't be on the iPhone at all. So every year you host the Goals Retreat, an in-person event so a person doesn't have weapons of mass destruction, and they can really be focused.


Keith Weinhold (00:30:40) - And it's important that this is done in person. It's a hands on workshop in a focused environment. You've got a lot of great testimonials about it, and even people that repeat and show up year after year, people that become teary eyed for what you brought out of them, people that say that their lives have been changed forever. So tell us about how one can attend your goals retreat.


Robert Helms (00:30:59) - What's coming up the second weekend of the new year. It's a great time to be thinking about your future as we're at the beginning of the year when 2024 is a blank canvas and it happens in Dallas, Texas, we picked a hotel that is really conducive to having little nooks and crannies and places that you could go because there is instruction, but there's also times where you're going to go journal and answer questions and think and be alone. And it's a beautiful place. So you get some inspiration in that regard. It takes two and a half days. So we started about 5:00 in the afternoon on Friday and go till 10 or 1030 that night.


Robert Helms (00:31:33) - A lot of people are traveling in a day, so that's about as much as we can get people to pay attention before they start to nod off. But then the next day, Saturday, it's all day from, you know, 730 breakfast till 1030 at night. And then Sunday kind of 8:00 in the morning for breakfast until 6:00 at night. And then we have our afterglow reception. And, you know, I used to do this, Keith, in three hours and in three hours I could teach a lot about how to set goals and how to ask those questions. But then I'd have to send you home to do it. And a few people would, and most people wouldn't. So now in the two and a half days, you will get a ton done. Your missions, your values, your purpose. You'll answer more than 250 questions, and you'll do it in writing and you'll get some great, great stuff. Some of it you'll go, yeah, of course. And other times you'll be absolutely surprised at what happened when you put pen to paper.


Robert Helms (00:32:27) - And then on Sunday, it's really a workshop to turn those goals into action plan. So you leave not confused, not vague, but crystal clear. You obviously can't get every single thing done on every goal. In two and a half days. There's some homework, but you're going to have enough done that you'll have that momentum. So if people are interested in that, that sounds interesting to you. All you have to do is go to Goals goals and you can learn all about the Create Your Future 2024 goals. Retreat.


Keith Weinhold (00:32:58) - Invest in future. You. You're worth it Robert. It's been valuable. Thanks so much for coming out to the show.


Robert Helms (00:33:05) - Great to see you, Keith. Thanks for having me. I wish everybody out there a wonderful 2024.


Keith Weinhold (00:33:16) - Oh yeah, great stuff from Robert Helms. As usual to review Smart goals are specific, measurable, attainable, relevant, and time based. Even if it's your personal goal and you know that you won't forget that goal, it has been shown to increase your success.


Keith Weinhold (00:33:33) - If you write down your goals old school style with a pen and paper, let's review a few other things that you learned there. When you set a goal, set intermediate benchmarks within it. That's something that I need to work on personally. But before you even set goals, you'd have to know that they are the right goals. And that means that you need to get clarity of vision first. That comes with understanding your principles and values, and then you can spend your life being in the lane that you enjoy because you've helped figure out what that was in our discussion about. Are you destined versus are you made? Earlier in my life, I believed I was destined and now I believe I am made. Back when my high school classmates voted me as the most quiet and shy student, and then later I'd go on to host basically a talk show here. Well, that was my pivot point. To know that you make yourself, if you're still wrestling with the you are destined versus you are made conundrum, perhaps you can adopt the belief that you were destined to make yourself the best you that you can be, and there you've got both in one, the real estate guys host a number of world class, in-person events.


Keith Weinhold (00:34:50) - I would know because I've attended a number of them myself, from a real estate syndication event to a summit cruise to real estate field trips. But among them, all their goals retreat is their highest rated event, and it's only held annually. If it sounds interesting to you again. Goals major thanks to Robert Helms today. Next week here on gray. It's real estate investing content that you've probably never heard before when we do How the Rent Stole Christmas. And I'm also going to deliver Gre's big home price appreciation forecast for next year and more on top of that. That's all next week. Until then, I'm your host, Keith Reinhold. Happy holidays. Don't quit your daydream.


Speaker 5 (00:35:40) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 6 (00:36:08) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich

Direct download: GREepisode480_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

A crying, sniffling mother reveals how inflation is ravaging her family. Despite a two-parent income, she tells us that they're trending toward poverty due to wages that struggle to cover inflated prices.

For home prices to fall, many homeowners need to walk away. But if they tried that today, they’d have to pay more in rent than they would on their low mortgage payment.

It’s absurd to only have one source of income.

401(k)s are considered a scam by some. I explain. Plan participants buy an income stream “probably later”. Real assets that cash flow provide income “surely now”.

There’s no such thing as: rent inflation, food inflation, or energy inflation. Inflation comes from the central bank.

One dollar in 1776 has the purchasing power of $35.36 today.

The worst consequence of inflation is that one parent could work to be middle class in the 1950s. It became two by the 1990s. After the 2020s inflation wave, two parents might not be enough anymore.

I explain why the Fed should keep interest rates the same for at least one year. But I doubt that they will.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Terrific inflation resource, charts:

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. 

You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—

text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:


Direct download: GREepisode479_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

If you own a real estate entity (like an LLC), the new Corporate Transparency Act (CTA) must be complied with soon.

I have my own attorneys on the show to discuss this today, Garrett and Ted Sutton.

You must report ownership information to the federal government. It must only be done one-time, not annually.

The penalties for non-compliance with the CTA can be as high as $10,000 in fines or up to 2 years in jail. Those penalties would be for the most egregious acts.

The intent behind the CTA is to prevent money laundering and terrorist financing.

If you don’t own real estate in an LLC, you probably won’t need to comply. There are pros and cons of using LLCs, which I discuss.

For help complying with the CTA, you can contact Corporate Direct at or (800) 600-1760.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Corporate Direct:


Video platform with kids’ FinEd:

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. 

You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—

text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:


Direct download: GREepisode478_b.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

Today's topics: Conventional financial advice is God-awful; tertiary real estate markets; I’ve got a solution to guilt tipping; whether or not the world is uncertain and unsafe.

Conventional financial advice is so bad. I attack the practices of setting budget alerts and paying off your smallest debts first. 

Don’t roll a debt snowball; roll a cash flow snowball.

In the past five years, tertiary markets are beginning to exhibit the rent stability of larger markets.

Guilt tipping is out of control. Learn my elegant solution. You’ll never pay a guilt tip again.

It seems like the world is increasingly uncertain and unsafe. It isn’t. I talk about why it only seems this way.


The limitations of budgeting (00:02:43)

Discussion on the drawbacks of using budgeting platforms and how they reinforce scarcity thinking.

The debt snowball concept (00:05:09)

Explanation of the debt snowball method of debt paydown and why it is not aligned with an abundance mindset.

Investing in tertiary real estate markets (00:09:43)

Exploration of the emerging bullish case for investing in smaller, tertiary real estate markets and their stability compared to larger markets.

Tertiary Real Estate Markets (00:10:56)

Discussion of the advantages and objections to investing in smaller tertiary real estate markets.

Increasing Investor Appetite in Smaller Markets (00:12:02)

Exploration of the growing interest and sales volumes in tertiary real estate markets.

Guilt Tipping and a Solution (00:20:16)

Explanation of guilt tipping and a proposed solution to avoid feeling pressured to leave a tip when making digital payments.

Guilt Tipping and the Increasing Expectations (00:21:20)

Discussion on the rise of tipping expectations and the use of digital payment prompts to ask for tips.

The Problem with Guilt Tipping and the Inconvenience of Undoing Tips (00:23:45)

Exploration of the annoyance of guilt tipping and the difficulty of undoing tips after poor service.

The Solution: Paying Cash to Avoid Guilt Tipping (00:31:18)

Suggestion to pay with cash as an elegant solution to circumvent guilt tipping and ignore electronic payment terminals.

The Uncertainty of the World (00:32:25)

Discusses how uncertainty has always existed and how waiting for complete clarity can hinder investment decisions.

Disasters and Uncertainty (00:33:47)

Lists various disasters and events that have occurred in the US, highlighting the constant presence of uncertainty and the relative sense of certainty and safety today.

The Ultra Safety of American Society (00:36:13)

Examines how society has become ultra safe, discussing the term "safetyism" and providing examples of excessive safety measures.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. 

You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—

text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:



Complete Episode Transcript:


Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, with a rant on how conventional financial advice is so terribly god awful an outlook for tertiary real estate markets, then? Are you getting worn down from guilt tipping? I've got a proven solution on how you'll never pay a guilt trip to a business again. And finally, how do you arrange your investing in personal finances in a world that's uncertain and unsafe? All today on get Rich education? When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls. And you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies. Disclaimers. Oh, at no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life? See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of hours myself. It's got a dash of humor and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text to six, 6866.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:15) - And when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course completely free. It's called the Don't Quit Your Day dream letter and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it, text GRE to 66866. Text  GRE to 66866.


Speaker 2 (00:01:40) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.


Keith Weinhold (00:01:56) - Welcome from Los Angeles, California, to Las Cruces, New Mexico, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Wayne holding. This is get rich education. When you pay for a low level service item like a Chipotle burrito, and another human is looking at you to see if you leave a 20% tip on a digital payment terminal, does that make you feel uncomfortable? Well, now you're being asked to. Guilt tip I've got a foolproof way on how to never get put in that situation again. That I'll share with you later here. You know, sometimes you just hear something that triggers a rant. I recently heard an ad for a digital platform that helps you manage your finances.


Keith Weinhold (00:02:43) - And what an awful, in scarcity minded way of thinking this reinforces. But this is actually what mainstream financial guidance looks like. All right, it was an ad for a digital platform trying to attract you there. And here's basically how it works. You set up your account. Then based on your income and expenses, you set up your budget. And as you know, that is a bad word around here, a budget. It's not how you want to live long term. All right. Then, when you're close to hitting your spending budget for the month or whatever, this platform triggers a budget alert. Are you kidding me? You get emailed a budget alert. How convenient. Oh, geez. So much for living an aspirational life by design. What a dreadful idea. Like someone that really wants more out of life would actually take effort to set up something like that. You would be building an architecture to establish life patterns that completely say, I think that money is a scarce resource. Now, in the short term, you've got to do what you've got to do, which might mean living below your means for a little while.


Keith Weinhold (00:03:55) - But in a world of abundance, delayed gratification should be a short term notion for you. I think that this type of platform that centered around stupid budget alerts is so limiting. Gosh, you've got to feel cheap just saying that out loud a budget alert. But anyway, that sounds conducive to this concept of scarcity based finance called a debt snowball that you can read about the debt snowball on Investopedia. But the debt snowball, that's basically how you pay off your debt with the smallest balance first, not the highest interest rate, but yes, the smallest principal balance it would have basically says is in the first step, what you're supposed to do is list your debts from smallest to largest, and that's regardless of interest rate, just smallest to largest based on the amount. And then the next step is that you make minimum payments on all of your debts except the smallest one, because you pay as much as possible on your smallest debt. And then the last step is you're supposed to just go ahead and repeat that until each debt is paid in full.


Keith Weinhold (00:05:09) - That's the debt snowball. So according to that, why do they say to disregard the interest rate, which is your cost of capital? Because they say that when you pay off the smallest debt super quick, that you're going to be jumping up and down with excitement, and that is going to motivate you to keep working hard to get debt free. They say that hope is more important than math. That's the school of thought. And along the way you should lower your expenses, cut spending, work hard and add a side hustle where you can. Oh my gosh, that is all congruent with this debt snowball concept that we sure do not endorse here at. I mean, that is 100% orthogonal to the world of abundance that we believe in. So often on your high interest rate debt. What you would do then is you'd make the minimum payments with this debt snowball, and then you focus it all on your smallest debt amount, regardless of interest rate. You've heard that right? And it even advocates that you stop investing and just focus on that smallest debt amount, even if it's a low interest rate.


Keith Weinhold (00:06:22) - That makes no sense. If you've decided that debt paydown is the best allocation of your first expendable dollar. All right, even if that were a yes, then in most cases you'd want to pay down the highest interest rate independent of the total principal balance on each of your debts. I mean, that's arbitrage, but they even bigger question for you, almost existential in nature is why is the best way to allocate your first expendable dollar on debt? Paydown. And. Any way it's or that. First, because one of the first places to look is how you can leverage that dollar 4 to 1 or 5 to 1 as long as you've controlled cash flows. Now, sometimes there are instances where you'd want to pay down debt before investing, certainly like a 20% Apr credit card debt, that could be one such place. So could retiring a debt to help your DTI, your debt to income ratio so that you can originate a new business loan or a new real estate loan first? All right, you might do thatrillionegardless of the interest rate on a loan.


Keith Weinhold (00:07:30) - But my gosh, if we want to stick with the snowball analogy, since we're a few days from December here, instead of trying to push a debt snowball up a hill to start rolling a cash flow snowball down a hill, when you buy an asset that pays you a monthly income stream to own it, that is constructive. Compounding your cash flows beats compounding your debt paid out. Instead of trying to push a debt snowball up a hill because you're cutting your one and only quality of life down. Instead, start rolling a cash flow snowball down a hill, and now you've got gravity working with you in the right way. That is the end of my rent. Hey, maybe I just feel like complaining a bit. My Jim was playing Phil Collins and Elton John all weekend, so maybe that's a kind of what in the world kind of mood that had generated in me, I don't know. And hey, nothing wrong with Phil Collins and Elton John. I mean, those guys are truly talented singers, 100%.


Keith Weinhold (00:08:28) - I just don't want to be working out to those guys. Michael Bolton, George Michael that's not motivating me to hit 20 burpees. Okay. Hey, well, I hope that you were set up for a great week. Be sure that part of it is that you are signed up for our live event tonight for 5.75% mortgage rates on Florida Income Now, whether you're looking at investment property in Florida or most any of the other 49 US states, there's a really nascent and interesting development that's been taking place for at least five years now. And that is what's happening in tertiary markets, smaller markets. I'll define tertiary a bit more shortly, but we're talking about metro statistical areas, MSAs that are probably not under 100,000 population, not that small. From a rent growth perspective. What's happened is that over the last five years, tertiary markets have had similar patterns to bigger markets. And historically, these smaller markets have been more erratic. But in rent growth terms, tertiary markets have stabilized. Now, a primary market is something like New York City or Chicago, a secondary market.


Keith Weinhold (00:09:43) - You might think of that as a little Rock, Arkansas, where it's under a million in size, and then a tertiary market that's going to be somewhat discretionary. But we're talking about a population of 100 K up to, say, 300 K. And what's noteworthy is that there are now more analysts and investors that are bullish on vibrant tertiary markets. So let's talk about why this is happening. I think there's an emerging bull case for overcoming some of the historical roadblocks to tertiary market investments in a diversified multifamily or single family rental portfolio. And one classical objection is that tertiary real estate markets are too volatile. Historically, we perceive smaller markets as more volatile. Yes, and some surely are. But over these last five years, markets outside the top 50 in size were regularly more consistent. Okay. They avoided rent cuts in 2020. They recorded sizable but less lawfully rent hikes in 2021 and 2022. And now they remain moderately positive in 2023, even as larger markets have kind of flattened out in the rent growth.


Keith Weinhold (00:10:56) - And of course, we're talking about a composite group of tertiary markets here. Some are more stable than others. You got to watch those local trends as always, of course. And you know, classically a second objection with these smaller markets is that, well, it's too easy to add a lot of supply. And yes, that is sometimes true and sometimes it's not. Indeed, there are a handful of small markets that are building like crazy, like Sioux Falls, South Dakota in Huntsville, Alabama. But as a group, the construction rate in what that is is the total units under construction divided by the total existing market, that is 5% in large markets versus the construction rate of just 4% in small markets. See, it can be harder to build in certain small markets due to NIMBYism or a lack of debt availability, especially if local banks aren't interested in the check size needed for construction loans. It can also be harder to build in certain small markets due to a lack. Of equity because it's a tougher sell to ask investors in a syndication to bet on a market that they don't have a lot of knowledge of.


Keith Weinhold (00:12:02) - Another objection to these tertiary markets is that small markets are not liquid. Since 2019, sales volumes in dollars going into tertiary markets has doubled. Investor appetite has definitely increased in smaller markets. And that's particularly true among these traditional regional investors that are looking for better yield as the larger cities got pricier. So good small markets, you know, a lot of them really are not secrets anymore. And there's only one more objection to these tertiary real estate markets and that it is harder to scale operations. And yes, there is always benefit in efficiency of scale. But, you know, it's certainly been getting easier with better technology today. Investors can always work with top local property managers. And for investment property owners or managers, they often target small markets adjacent to larger markets where they have a bigger presence. So some other considerations before you as an investor go deep in one of these smaller tertiary markets is you want to be choosy in your market and in your site selection. Look for small markets that have multiple drivers.


Keith Weinhold (00:13:13) - You don't just want these one trick ponies. You know, I've discussed with you before about how markets that are heavily focused on commodities or heavily focused on military, they are not favorable because those two sectors, for example, commodities and military, are just pretty volatile. Look for growth or steady markets, lots of small markets. They continue to grow at a pretty healthy clip. And you want to look for markets with an absence of new product. Now why don't I name a few tertiary markets so that you can get a better idea of this. So about 100 K to 300 K in population size. Not that these next ones are necessarily good or bad markets. It's just for size comparison. I'm thinking about Ocala, Florida and Shreveport, Louisiana. You know those two. They're almost getting too big. They're almost secondary markets Wilmington, North Carolina at 300 K. That's a tertiary market. So are Akron and Canton, Ohio Dayton. That's pretty tertiary, but it's also close to Cincinnati. So you got a little more safety in Dayton.


Keith Weinhold (00:14:20) - Toledo is secondary. Burlington, Vermont is tertiary. Bellingham, Washington is tertiary. Yuma and Flagstaff, Arizona are both tertiary. Yes. We're talking about the stability in rents in tertiary real estate markets. Conventionally. You know, in the past, I've said that MSAs of 500 K population or more, that's pretty much where you want to be. But anymore, with the rise of remote work after 2019, it's really making some of these smaller tertiary markets more palatable to real estate investors and something that you probably want to consider. So really, that's the takeaway for you here and say this is the kind of stuff that really plays into my interests as a geography guy. See, I'm a real estate guy, but I might be the most geography interested real estate guy out there. Geography is something that I really love, though I could I don't share too much geography here on a real estate show. Sometimes it's relevant because both geography and real estate are location, location, location, but sometimes it's less relevant.


Keith Weinhold (00:15:25) - For example, North America's longest river is not the Mississippi, it's the Missouri River. The New York City metro area is so populated that more than one in every 18 Americans live there. That's almost 6% of the entire American population. See, some of this is more trivial or of general interest than it is relevant to real estate. Although you could learn some geography from me. Do you know the closest US state to Africa? If you draw a straight line, the closest state to Africa is not Florida or North Carolina. It is Maine. Look on a globe. Part of the reason that Maine is the closest state is that Africa is primarily in the Northern Hemisphere, not the southern, contrary to popular belief, and to look at a different continent. The entirety of South America is east of Jacksonville, Florida. Here's one more piece of geography. Canada's beautiful and mountainous Yukon Territory is larger than California, yet California has more than 900 times the population of the entire Yukon. Yes, the giant Yukon has less than 45,000 people.


Keith Weinhold (00:16:39) - It is the practice of guilt tipping out of control. And how do you respond to our world that seems to be increasingly unsafe and uncertain. That's coming up next. They say, if you give a man a fish you have fed him for. Or a day. But if you teach them to fish, you have fed him for a lifetime. Well, here at gray, we do both. I'm not talking about both in terms of men and women, but we teach you how to fish and give you a fish. Get rich. Education is where we teach you how to fish. With this show, with our blog and newsletter and videos, we also give you a fish. That's it. Gray marketplace. It's one of the few places you'll find affordable, available properties that are good quality there at marketplace. They're all conducive to our strategy of real estate pays five ways I'm Keith Wild. You're listening to get Rich education. Jerry listeners can't stop talking about their service from Rich lending group and MLS. For 256.


Keith Weinhold (00:17:45) - They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plex. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge. Personally, though, even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate, and I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2 jobs income, and they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love.


Keith Weinhold (00:18:55) - For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to 66866.


Speaker 3 (00:19:16) - This is real estate investment coach Naresh Vissa. Don't live below your means. Grow your needs. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold.


Keith Weinhold (00:19:34) - Welcome back. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. There will only ever be one great podcast. Episode 477. And you're listening to it perhaps on one third of our episodes. Throughout the show's history, there is no guest. It's 100% me, a slack jawed monologue like it is today, and lots of great Jerry episodes coming up in the future, including Robert Helms other real estate guys here soon as he runs alongside me for an episode as we discuss goals. If you get value from and you don't want to miss any future episodes, be sure to hit subscribe or follow on your favorite podcast platform so that you're sure to hear from me again after today.


Keith Weinhold (00:20:16) - Is guilt tipping out of control? We have all felt it now. Does this happen to you today when you're about to pay the Starbucks barista or for the subway sandwich and they spin the digital payment terminal around toward you and say, it's just going to ask you a question before you pay. And then they stand there and they look at you in the face and they watch what you choose. All right. Does that right there give you a tinge of anxiety or even stress you out? Well, if you give in to that, that is called guilt tipping. And you know what? I've got a solution to guilt tipping. A simple and elegant way that I'm going to share with you so that you never have to see a payment terminal like this in your face again, that asks you for a tip when you're out shopping or dining and paying for something. Yes, I've got a proven solution for how you'll never even be asked to leave a guilt tip again because I tested it and mastered it. It works.


Keith Weinhold (00:21:20) - We even have an unverified report on Reddit of a self-serve digital kiosk now even asking you for a tip. What? I mean, how far will this go? Yes, like a self-checkout for your own groceries at a supermarket like Giant or Safeway? First, let's get some context about why this is so important to you in the first place and how bad it's getting. It might even be worse than what you're thinking here. All right, a new study from Pew Research. It found that 72% of people said that the long standing practice of tipping is now expected in more places than it was five years ago. My reaction to that stat is what? How is it not 100% of people saying that it's happening all over the place, and consumers like you and I are increasingly getting tired of it? The way it works is that today's digital payment prompts, they allow businesses to preset suggested tip levels, so it's easier than ever for them to ask for tips and companies that have not done so in the past. They are definitely doing it now rather than giving employees a raise.


Keith Weinhold (00:22:35) - Instead, they're asking you to supplement the employee wage by asking you for tips where they didn't before. Must you fight back like David Horowitz, if you're uninitiated on that? I learned about a popular show that apparently ran on prime time network television in the 1980s. The show was called Fight Back with David Horowitz, and it advocated for how consumers can fight back against unscrupulous business practices. In fact, let's listen into the cornball intro of this show, which your parents might remember. It's something about fight back. Don't let businesses push you around.


Speaker UU (00:23:20) - But don't let anyone push you around. Fine, but stand up and hold your ground. I got. Someone tries to you in. Five spot. Just.


Speaker 4 (00:23:44) - Oh, jeez. Yeah.


Keith Weinhold (00:23:45) - Fight back against guilt tipping, I suppose. See, a few years back, the reason that you began getting asked to leave a tip in places you hadn't before. That's because it was a way for you to provide a gratuity for service workers. Because you were supposed to have appreciated that they showed up during the health crisis when a lot of workers did not want to show up.


Keith Weinhold (00:24:09) - But now that the crisis appears largely over with, the tip requests have not gone away. They've gotten worse because by now companies see what they can get away with. Now, look, people don't want to feel like a jerk or a cheapskate. You don't. I don't, but businesses are taking advantage of that fact by making bigger than usual tips. The default option on these payment terminals. It really that's the crux of the annoyance. Say that you're given choices of 20, 25, or 30% on a payment terminal just for someone handing you a pre-made sandwich that's already wrapped in cellophane. I've had it happen to me, and then hoping that you will just go ahead and pay the extra amount, rather than hassling with clicking custom tip and entering a smaller number like 10% or zero. Understand something here. The business call it a sandwich shop. They're not the ones that always decide what tip options you're presented with. Did you know that because the companies that own the payment systems, they can earn a cut of your money from each transaction? Those payment system companies, they also have an incentive to increase those amounts as much as possible, not just the sandwich shop, but they are both complicit in this scheme together.


Keith Weinhold (00:25:37) - But now sometimes you get asked to leave a tip beforehand before you're even delivered any good or service. And see, that's getting awkward too. And see the fear of that you and I should have. Now is that in this case, as the customer, as the client, you are going to get punished if you leave a low tip before they deliver the service to you. See, that's another big problem here with guilt tipping. Now, traditionally, tips were thought of as a way to reward good service after you already received what you paid for, right? That's how it works. You pay your server after a meal, you pay your valet. After they bring you your car. You pay the tour guide after your volcano hike or snorkel tour. If you thought that they did a good job. Now, just the other day at a chain fast casual Mexican restaurant that you've certainly heard of, I was being rung up about $35 for two double steak burritos, and there's a lower service level there than a full sit down restaurant.


Keith Weinhold (00:26:44) - But I left a 10% tip at the counter on that day. I thought they put lots of steak on them. And then I walked my burritos to the tables and the tables were messy. I could not find a clean table anywhere, but I had already left the tip. It was too late, so I left the tip and then only later did I discover the poor service, the messy tables. Oh gosh, I wasn't going to go back and try to undo the tip, huh? Before I tell you about my elegant solution so that you can forever avoid guilt tipping. So let's understand just where are Americans tipping today? The situations when people add a gratuity. You know, this really offers some insight into the new tipping landscape. And again, this is according to Pew Research for dining at sit down restaurants, 92% of people are tipping there. And of note, a majority said that they would tip 15% or less for an average sit down meal. That kind of surprised me, because etiquette experts say the tipping 20% at a full service restaurant is standard now, and that's what I do.


Keith Weinhold (00:27:48) - Okay, getting a haircut 78% of people tip today. Having food delivered 76% for those using a taxi or rideshare service like Uber, 61% of people said that they would tip. I tip for all those things. Buying coffee. Only 25% of people leave tips and eating at fast casual restaurants only 12%. So look, people are upset because we've had years of high consumer price inflation and service inflation on top of that. And then a tip on top of that. Yeah. So it's tip relation on top of inflation. And then there is this preponderance of restaurants especially. It suggests that you tip the post-tax amount. Have you noticed that that means that you're also paying a tip on the tax that you pay? So just pay attention to that next time you're at a sit down, full service restaurant, or really most any other place that suggests a tip amount. And yeah, that's annoying. And I really doubt that that business sends that extra revenue to the IRS where you're paying a tip to the tax amount.


Keith Weinhold (00:29:00) - Gosh. But it all comes back to tip and the influx of automatic prompts at businesses like coffee shops, it gives you more chances to tip, and it'll just wear you down and then wear you out, creating this sense of exhaustion thinking what is all this for? It is just wild. If supermarkets are asking you to leave a tip for self checkout, your supermarket wants to outsource their checkout duties from clerks and cashiers to you, asking you to scan your own groceries. By the way, that is an example of service inflation. And then they ask you for a tip. On top of this food inflation and service inflation, you're doing it all yourself. What is next? You're going to have to unload the store's delivery of food from the 18 Wheeler truck in the back, onto a forklift, and onto the shelves yourself. I kind of doubt that. But if grocery stores are convenience stores, self-serve kiosks, if they're requesting tips, then it's more likely that soon enough, your human checkout clerk is going to start requesting tips.


Keith Weinhold (00:30:09) - When you're checking out at Whole Foods or Publix or Wegmans or Safeway, that human checkout clerk that's going to appear as some sort of small luxury comparatively. I mean, I would expect that to come to your town next. Expect to see it if you haven't already. There used to be this general understanding of what different tip amounts convey to servers and workers. Now, decades ago, it used to be a 10% tip meant, all right, well, hey, it wasn't horrible, but it wasn't great either. A 15% tip was normal and 20%. That meant that person did an excellent job. But now those amounts have all become expected and they've all been bumped up 5% or more. All right, well, here's my solution to avoid guilt tipping the way to no longer see a digital payment terminal spun around put in your face. Putting you on the spot to make a nice tip is just this two word solution pay cash. Yes, when you pay cash, you don't have to see an electronic payment terminal at all.


Keith Weinhold (00:31:18) - And it's far easier for you to ignore a physical tip jar that's sitting on the counter over to the side of you. The elegant and simple solution to guilt tipping is to pay cash. Now go ahead and leave a tip for good service if you want to. I'm not here to suggest that you stop all tipping. It's about how you can make an elegant circumvention of guilt tipping. If you have an eight second long exchange where you ask for a cup of coffee and they turn around and pour it from a spout and hand it to you. And that's all they did. Well, that tips discretionary. The bottom line is that you don't have to tip every time you're prompted. And now go ahead and hit up that ATM with cash. You will be armed and you can avoid guilt tipping completely. And hey, can we say that you will be fighting back like David Horowitz? Tipping is fine, but guilt tipping is out of control. And hey, if you want to see more on guilt tipping, I really brought it to life on a video recently where I really broke it down.


Keith Weinhold (00:32:25) - That is on our YouTube channel. We are consistently branded as they say. Our YouTube channel is called get Rich education. So you can watch me talk about guilt tipping and show you more over there. Do you feel like the world that you're living in is increasingly uncertain and unsafe? And is that adversely affecting your investment decisions? That happens to some people and you can't make gains when you stay on the sidelines. I think some people make too much of uncertainty, even though it has always existed. Just look at the last about four years. You know, someone could have said, I am just paralyzed with inaction because of the pandemic. Oh, that's uncertain then the recession fears uncertain, then rising interest rates where they rose fast, uncertain. And today it might be wars uncertain. And you know, the same people that get paralyzed with uncertainty. They will soon say something next year like, well, it's a presidential election year. So. I think uncertainty is going to sideline me again. If you wait for uncertainty to abate, such as you have complete clarity or even great clarity, you're going to be waiting your entire life.


Keith Weinhold (00:33:47) - Uncertainty and an absence of complete safety that's existed in the world every single day since the day that you and I were born and before you and I were born. And it will exist after we're gone, too. I mean, really, just look at some of these disasters that have taken place just this century, and we're still in the first quarter of this century. And let's look here at some just in the US, not foreign crises. I'm thinking about the Y2K bug, the September 11th terrorist attacks on the World Trade Towers in the Pentagon, the Iraq war, the invasion into Afghanistan, Hurricane Katrina, where 1800 people were killed, the GREAtrillionECESSION, the Arab Spring, the surprise of Donald Trump becoming our president in 2016. Remember, that was a real upset over Hillary Clinton. How about the jarring events of January 6th of the Capitol less than three years ago, the eviction moratorium, the slow creep of climate change, the riots and civil unrest with the George Floyd protests, the wildflowers from California to Maui.


Keith Weinhold (00:35:00) - I mean, I could go on and on about how winners just keep thriving despite a world that's constantly uncertain and unsafe. And I'm only talking about things that involve the United States here, and I'm keeping it confined to this century just a little more than two decades. I mean, before that, we had World wars. We had the Dust Bowl, Cuba's Bay of pigs invasion in the Cuban Missile Crisis that could have led to a nuclear apocalypse that completely destroyed the entire world. There is relative clarity today compared to all that. How about an assassination attempt of our President Reagan? I mean, things are substantially more certain today in a lot of ways. And today, American employment is strong, GDP is growing. Our currency is fairly stable despite our problems, which will always exist. Today, the US economy is outperforming everybody in the world. And in a world that some feel is uncertain and unsafe, just consider the relative sense of certainty and safety you have today. Well, we discuss wars today. As bad as they are when they do happen, they're never on US soil.


Keith Weinhold (00:36:13) - Can you imagine an attack on American soil? How would that sound? Like? The enemy has destroyed and taken control of Charleston in Savannah. And next they're moving inland to take down Atlanta. I mean, that's so unlikely that your mind isn't even conditioned to think that way. But the reason that it seems, seems like your world is getting less certain and less safe is because of media. Media is more fractured than it's ever been. It wants your attention. So with more competition with everything from YouTube videos to TikTok clips now competing with legacy media, you get introduced to more fear in order to get your attention. My gosh. I mean, is American life safer than ever? You can make the case that it's become too safe even. I've talked to you before about how things could very well be in safety overboard mode in real estate. Now here we talk about providing clean, safe, affordable and functional housing. But she should need GFCI outlets all over the place in your property, and carbon monoxide detectors and fire rated doors, even when their improvement to your safety is negligible.


Keith Weinhold (00:37:32) - American society at large is so ultra safe and in fact, there's even a term for this now it's called safety ism. Yeah, look it up. It's how excessive safety is becoming harmful to society. When you are on your last passenger plane flight at night and you just wanted to take a nice nap, or you wanted to get some sleep, did the pilot come on to the intercom system and wake you up, telling you to sit down and put your seatbelt on every time? Just a small amount of turbulence was being felt. Oh, there are endless instances like that where society's gotten so safe that it's just annoying. The last time that I was shopping at Lowe's, the home improvement store, a forklift driver was slowly driving the aisles really carefully. And besides just the forklift driver sitting on the seat, there was a second man, a flagger, that was out in front of him, walking, holding two little flags. So the shopping customers knew that a forklift. This coming. Like, that's such a wild hazard to human safety.


Keith Weinhold (00:38:37) - I mean, gosh, the gross inefficiency of that just to improve safety ever so slightly. Construction workers that have to wear hard hats outdoors in an open field. I mean, our society has become Uber safe. Now, don't get me wrong, some measure of safety is definitely a good thing, but I'm underscoring the fact that historically, this world that you're living in is ultra safe and ultra certain. And then within our investing world, take a look around what can be said to be certain and uncertain. Apple. They're the world's largest company by market cap at about $3 trillion. And their risk is that eventually they might fail to keep innovating. How about Bitcoin? Bitcoin could have government crackdowns or some other lack of certainties, their money in the bank and owning Treasury bonds. All right. That's fairly safe and certain. But you aren't getting any real yield there. And in a world that feels more uncertain and unsafe than it really is, bring it back to the positive attributes of being a real estate investor here.


Keith Weinhold (00:39:46) - You know, monetary inflation is a near certainty, and so is the fact that people will pay you rent if you put a roof over their heads. Certainty. It helps to be mindful that safety is the opposite of freedom, and that having security is the opposite of having opportunity. Hey, well, speaking of opportunity, join our investment coach Norris for Grizz Live event that is to night. You can join from the comfort of your own home. You get to select from one of the two options for Florida Income property. You can select either a 5.75% mortgage rate or the 224 program, which means two years of free property management. 2% of the purchase price. In closing cost credit to you and a generous $4,000 lease up fee credit. Sign up. It's free. It's our live event tonight, the 27th at 8:30 p.m. eastern, 530 Pacific. If you're a few days late, be sure to watch the replay soon. to have a chance at putting some new Build Florida Income property in your portfolio.


Keith Weinhold (00:41:00) - Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Winfield. Don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 5 (00:41:08) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.


Keith Weinhold (00:41:36) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.

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Join our free Florida income properties webinar on Monday, November 27th for 5.75% mortgage rates at:

Home prices are up 4.5% annually through Q3. It’s the fastest growth rate in months.

Three out of ten renters are now age 55+, the most ever. Older renters are good for you: lower turnover, more quiet, more savings & income, and lower regulation compared to assisted living. 

Overall US population growth is slowing, from 1.2% a generation ago to 0.5% today. It’s expected to grow until 2080.

I discuss the DOJ crackdown on the NAR and real estate commissions. 1.6 million real estate agents could lose their jobs.

Apartment building rate caps have become super-expensive.

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Naresh tells us how to get 5.75% mortgage rates on new-build Florida income property at

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The housing market stats (00:02:52)

Discussion about the current state of the housing market, including the 45% increase in home prices and the reasons for continued home price support.


Home price appreciation forecasts (00:05:28)

Talks about the predictions for future home price appreciation, with both CoreLogic and NAR expecting a 26% rise in home prices next year.


The impact of older renters (00:10:08)

Explains why older renters are desirable for property owners and landlords, highlighting their lower turnover rate and stability.


The Aging Population and Older Renters (00:11:15)

Discusses the benefits of older renters, such as lower mobility, more savings and income, and low regulation.


US Population Projection and Immigration (00:12:30)

Examines the projected population decline in the US by 2100 and the importance of immigration for continued growth.


Housing Demand and Household Size (00:17:12)

Explores the trend of fewer people living in each household and its impact on housing demand.


The timestamp's title (00:22:05)

Rising Costs of Rate Caps for Apartment Buildings

Discussion on how the cost of rate caps for larger apartment buildings has become prohibitively expensive.


The timestamp's title (00:25:23)

Real Estate Market Trends and Slowdown

Insights on the current state of the real estate market, including a slowdown in November and leveling off of home values and rents.


The timestamp's title (00:28:28)

Opportunity in Real Estate Market in 2024

Predictions for the real estate market in 2024, including a potential bottoming out of the market and a decrease in mortgage rates.


The decline in home values and the health of the economy (00:32:58)

Discussion on the decline in home values and the health of the economy, with reference to the 2008 financial crisis and current housing supply.


Short-term rentals and the potential for a decline (00:34:14)

Exploration of the decline in short-term rentals due to a decrease in travel and corporate expenses.


The impact of mortgage interest rates on home prices (00:35:19)

Analysis of the relationship between mortgage interest rates, economic slowdowns, and home prices, with a focus on potential rate cuts and their effects on the housing market.


The Florida In-Migration Stat (00:43:53)

Florida's astounding population growth and becoming the second most valuable property market in the US.


The Rate Buy Down Courtesy of the Builders (00:44:23)

Explaining the options of a 5.75% rate or the 2-2-4 program for property buyers in Florida.


Disclaimer and Closing (00:46:02)

A disclaimer about the show and a mention of the sponsor, Get Rich Education.


Complete Episode Transcript:


Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to I'm your host Keith Weinhold told how price appreciation is up 4.5%, but there are signs that it is slowing down. Finally, learn more about our upcoming live event that you can join from the comfort of your own home today on get Rich education. When you want the best real estate and finance info. The modern internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls. And you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies. Disclaimers. Oh, at no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life? See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of hours myself. It's got a dash of humor and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text to 66866. And when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course completely free. It's called the Don't Quit Your Day dream letter and it wires your mind for wealth.


Speaker 1 (00:01:17) - Make sure you read it text to 66866. Text 266866.


Speaker 2 (00:01:29) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:01:45) - We're going to go from Roxbury, Connecticut to Roxbury, Wisconsin, and across 188 nations worldwide. This is get rich education. I'm Keith Weinhold, GRE founder host of this very show since 2014, longtime real estate investor and Forbes Real Estate Council member. In fact, check out my latest article in Forbes for my work in research on the housing market. What we do here is by investment property with the bank's money, pay the debt with the tenants money, and then well, that's about it. In a sense. We enjoy life mostly. There will be some bumps along the way. The devil is in the details. Yeah, all those sus vibes that you got from the housing price apocalypse, doomsday, YouTubers. All of those vibes you had are validated by now. Just in time for a sweater weather. Respected research firm CoreLogic released their report with end of quarter housing stats nationwide.


Speaker 1 (00:02:52) - Home prices still haven't fallen. There was a healthy 4.5% in September of this year compared to September of last year. Yes, these real estate numbers always run behind a little bit. Well, that 4.5% increase that even includes distressed sales. And that is the fastest growth rate in quite a few months. And again, this is primarily due to a robust job market spiked inflation and housing inventory lows that just keep scraping along the sea bottom floor. So these fundamental reasons for continued home price support, I mean, it's the same stuff I've emphasized for over two years, even as I stated prominently back on television in November of 2021. And although that was avant garde at the time, it's really not in my personality to get smug until the incessant rumors today I told you so or anything like that. Well, the highest price gains this past year. They were concentrated in places that had, I suppose, the best autumn foliage this year, that is, most northeastern states. They are the big gainers now. There were some price declines in a few places.


Speaker 1 (00:04:08) - They were felt in just four western states and D.C. the four western states were Utah, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. Now, see, in the pandemic, those states prices, they stretched broader than basketball star Victor Wembanyama. And today they are mildly correcting. But back to the base case here. The 46 of 50 states which experienced appreciation oven mitts are needed to handle the three hottest states led by Maine 10%, Connecticut also at 10%, and new Jersey, with a 9% gain. And when you break that down in the metro area, it was Miami that led with soaring 8.5% appreciation. And it's interesting are core investment areas of the Midwest in southeast, which I call the stable markets. They lived up to that moniker again, they appreciated moderately during the pandemic and still appreciating moderately today. And as we approach winter, expect home price depreciation to have its seasonal slowdown. That's what tends to happen each year. In fact, there's a slowdown in sales of volume two. There are just so few homes on the market, but it has gotten really slow lately.


Speaker 1 (00:05:28) - Now, I do like CoreLogic, the supplier of this information. They contribute their single family rent index to our industry. And that's so valuable because most rent data that you find out there is about apartments. CoreLogic predicts further home price appreciation over the next year of 2.6%. And similarly, the Nar. They expect home prices to rise 2.6% next year. Now, next month, you will hear me. Release gives home price appreciation forecasts right here on the show, and you're also going to learn how accurate my forecast was for this year that I made last year. Now, just last month, I made an in-person field trip to Cash Flow Country, the Midwestern United States. You've got some income property providers there that are still steadily sourcing properties to investors like you. But, you know, there are a few now where they're not even doing that lately because some providers are having trouble making the numbers work for you, the investor. Like, for example, on a single family rental that was built in the 1960s.


Speaker 1 (00:06:40) - Right. A somewhat older property. Where it is commanding, say 1650 rent. And this is a real example of rehab property that I visited in the Midwest, 1650 REM. Well, these property providers can get, say, $230,000 for that property if they sell it to an owner occupant instead of an investor like you. Well, with higher interest rates on an older property, you know, 1650 rent on a 230 K purchase price. And it doesn't work so great for you as an investor, although it might on a newbuild property. So that's why a provider like that is selling to owner occupants instead of investors like you, an owner occupant, they'll pay 230 K because they don't have to make it cash flow. It's their home. So instead of selling it to an investor like you were, say 190 K is the most that it would make sense for you to pay. Well, then sure, that provider is going to get 230 K from an owner occupant, so it makes more sense for that provider to sell it to the owner occupant as well.


Speaker 1 (00:07:44) - Now, one income property company that has in-house management and all that. I mean, this is a company that then is set up to serve investors. What they've done though is currently they're selling about 80% to retail homeowners, owner occupants in just 20% to turnkey real estate investors. For just that reason, owner occupants can pay more for it because of what's going on in the cycle. So in that particular Midwestern market, either mortgage interest rates must come down or rents must rise in order for it to make sense to you as an investor again. Now, later in the show today, you'll soon see that we've effectively found a way to make interest rates go back in time a couple of years when they were low, and how you can apply them to new Build income property. Today you'll learn exactly what that rate is, and this is fairly exciting. But yes, everyone wants to know where are mortgage rates going to go. And no one I mean absolutely no one knows where rates will go. Not your mortgage loan officer, not Janet Yellen, not your property provider.


Speaker 1 (00:08:55) - They don't know where mortgage rates are going to go, not the president of the United States, not Charlie Ridge, not a real estate agent, not Ron DeSantis and not me. No one knows where rates are going, of course. But we did learn something just about ten days ago. Fed Chair Jerome Powell said he's not confident. Those were his words in quotes, not confident that policymakers have done enough to curb inflation. Well, that right there. That is what is known as a hawkish comment in fed vernacular. If they haven't done enough to curb inflation, then that is what has renewed fears of more interest rate increases. Now your investment properties next tenant might be a grandparent with a flip phone. Roughly three out of ten renter households are now headed by people age 55 plus. After bottoming out in 2004, older renters have become a major share of the tenant population today, and I share this with you recently. If you're a reader of Art, Don't Quit Your Day Dream letter. And by the way, welcome to all of our new letter readers.


Speaker 1 (00:10:08) - We recently had a few thousand new Don't Quit Your Adrian Letter subscribers, our weekly email newsletter. Welcome here to the podcast. Now as I'll explain why in a moment you should like and embrace older renters. Now, first things first. Understand that as a property owner or landlord, you cannot age discriminate in your advertising or in your tenant screening. But all right, once you're done poking fun at their jitterbug or their track phone, understand that older renters, they are desirable. And by the way, our jitter, bugs and track phones still made us think that at least one of those two phone models is still made. At least one of them is a flip phone. Not completely sure, but anyway, yes, now that we know that there are more older renters here, about 3 in 10 American renters now age 55 plus, okay, older renters, hey, they really are desirable for a bunch of reasons. You're going to have lower turnover. Okay? Older people tend to stay put. There's a low transient rate.


Speaker 1 (00:11:15) - They have a low mobility rate. That's another way to say it. Also all the renters, they tend to be more quiet. They're less likely to throw three keg ragers no beer pong, no headbutt dents in the drywall. And when it comes to savings and income, they have more of it and expect low regulation. Unlike something like assisted living, there is no special government permitting or any specialized staff that's needed. So. There are some big reasons why this growing group of older renters that is good for you as an income property owner. So to review what you've learned, that's due to lower mobility. They're more quiet, they have more savings in income and there's low regulation. And I'm going to say that personally, I've come to appreciate my older friends more as time goes on. And I recently realized that I have some of my best conversations with them. But they won't talk me into the jitterbug. They can't talk me into giving up my life without Instagram on an iPhone. Many older adults, they don't want the hassle of homeownership and others they are just feeling the weight of dreadful homebuyer affordability, just like everyone else.


Speaker 1 (00:12:30) - And one major reason for why there are more older renters. If you're trying to find a reason why it's not due to some seismic behavioral shift, it's just the simple fact that the American population keeps getting older overall. Overall, we have an aging population. And by the way, is 55 that old? I mean, the 55 plus age group, that can mean a lot of things. And 85 year old and 55 year old lived very different lives with different activity levels, of course. But is 55 that old? I don't know, I know that you only need to be age 50 to be an AARP member. I guess 55 sounds old, because you can say that you're pretty likely to be in the second half of your life, but maybe if you divide life up into thirds, you could say then that 55 is in the middle third, and then therefore 55 could be seen as middle aged and not old, I suppose. And for some reason, it's systemic in American culture that people don't seem to want to be called old for whatever reason.


Speaker 1 (00:13:35) - It has a mildly pejorative connotation, but it is a group of people with their own separate habits, and these people are more likely to be using trekking poles when they go hiking, I guess. And I don't agree that age is just a number. I mean, come on, age means something in 85 year old men. They are not going to qualify to play in the NBA All-Star game. They're not going to be the most agile defensive back on an NFL field. So that takeaway here is that more renters are older. Embrace it. It's good if you're a listener but still don't have our valuable don't quit your day dream letter, which wires your mind for wealth, and it updates you on real estate trends. You can get it for free right now. Just text message group to 66866. That's green to 66866. We've been talking about the aging population here on get Rich education episode 476. All right. But how about the overall US population trend. This is something that you might have seen elsewhere since it transcends real estate.


Speaker 1 (00:14:46) - But I'll give you my real estate take on it too. All right. So the latest Census Bureau figures, they show that the US population is projected to contract to shrink by the year 2100, which would be only the second decline in the nation's history. And the other decline occurred in the 1918 Spanish flu and World War one. For those reasons, annual population growth rates, they have dropped from about 1.2% a generation ago to just one half of 1% today, and the culprits are declining birth rates and that aforementioned aging population. All right. The US has the world's third biggest population, and it could be demoted to fourth or fifth by Pakistan or Nigeria as soon as the middle of this century. So this anticipated population contraction, that means that immigration could become vital for any hopes of continued growth. And yet understand the US is still growing faster than a lot of other high income nations like Japan and Italy, that are already losing population. All right, so the US population is projected to shrink by 2100.


Speaker 1 (00:16:02) - The more important thing for you to remember as a real estate investor that's going to need a population to drive demand, is that our population is still expected to grow every year until about the year 2080 by most every model out there. So still 50 to 60 years of population growth. And then it isn't until later 2100 that is expected to decline. And of course, birth rates and immigration rates are bigger unknowns than the death rate out there in the future. Just estimating how soon our population is going to peak, but it's going to be a. While many decades. And then, of course, even in 50, 60 years, if the overall American population stops growing. All right, well, it'll probably still grow in some regions. And, you know, I wonder if Florida will still be growing late this century. It seems like it never stops there with population growth. And also it's not just about overall population growth when it comes to housing demand. It's how people choose to live within a certain population growth rate.


Speaker 1 (00:17:12) - Okay, with a population of 100, if there are two people per household, well, they can be housed with 50 homes, but if there is just one person per household, well then it's going to take 100 homes to house those same 100 people, no longer 50 homes. All right. And one trend that's made for surging American housing demand is that you have fewer people living in each household. That's how people choose to live today. So keep that in mind. You see a small half of 1% annual growth rate in more recent years, but there are a lot of numbers behind the numbers. Now, you might wonder what I think about the federal jury that recently found the National Association of Realtors and large brokerages, and how they conspire to keep commissions artificially high. What's that really mean? Well, what it means is more flexibility for buyers. I mean, under the current system, sellers pay their own agents commission of roughly 5 to 6%, and then that 5 to 6% that's shared with the buyer's agent.


Speaker 1 (00:18:18) - Well, if sellers now get billion from paying buyer's agents, well, then buyers would have to start to pay their own agent if they choose to use one. And a buyer could do that at either a flat rate or an hourly rate. But first time homebuyers, they could really feel the crunch, or that could become a bigger issue for those wannabe first time homebuyers that are having a hard time amassing the savings to pay for an agent on top of their down payment and their closing costs. Just another whammy for those wannabe first time homebuyers. They keep getting beaten down, and that's what could put some upward pressure on rents. But I don't think it would really be much as a result of that alone. And another consequence of this is that there would be less commission paid by sellers. I mean, the way it works is that in order to advertise a listing on the database, the MLS, the Multiple Listing Service, are that MLS that populates real estate websites like Zillow and Redfin? Well, in order for that to happen, sellers in most markets they have to agree to pay the buyer's agent's commission as well as their own sellers agents commission.


Speaker 1 (00:19:31) - Well, that's the practice that could be scrapped and that could spell trouble for real estate agents. A lot of people have estimated that $30 billion could potentially leave the industry, and some estimate that 1.6 million agents could lose their jobs. See, the way that the system had worked in the past is that one reason that the seller pays the entire 5 to 6% commission for both sides is because it's usually easy for them to do that, since sellers are the ones that have the equity in their property and the buyers often don't. So this could make homeownership even more difficult to qualify for. I mean, if first time homebuyers already had to jump over a four foot hurdle, now it's perhaps a five foot hurdle if this all happens. But there are still legal battles ongoing there in the real estate agent commissions case. Now, as I've talked about before, with this American housing shortage, it's the affordable housing segment that has high demand and is so drastically undersupplied. Now just get this understand that from 2019 until today, the price of a new car rose 22%, the price of a median home rose 42%.


Speaker 1 (00:20:54) - And the mobile home price, which is about the most affordable option for housing that rose by a giant 58%. I mean, wow, that is a testament to the major housing shortage at the affordable price points. That really, really spells it out. And if you're confident that the long term play is to provide good, affordable housing like we are here at, you know, there are more reasons to look at loading up on properties like duplexes and triplexes. And for plex's where you can get fixed rates now. And if you wanted to, you could refinance to long term fixed rates later. Now to buy a rate cap for a larger apartment building. That has just balloon in expense for you? Yes, a rate cap buying the what's basically like insurance you buy that puts a ceiling on how high your interest rate can go on larger apartment buildings. You don't have to do that with 1 to 4 unit property. You can just get fixed rate certainty. Now, a couple years ago, rate caps for large apartment buildings, they were pretty affordable.


Speaker 1 (00:22:05) - They were inexpensive. It took 40 K, 50 or 100 K to ensure that your rate wouldn't adjust too high. And then once it did, of course the rate cap insurance would kick in. But that same rate cap this year could be nearly $1 million. Yeah. See, a couple years ago, the $10 million loan, you could have bought a 2% rate cap for 60 to 75 K in three years coverage. Well, if you'd want to extend that this year, just a one year renewal, you could probably spend 350 K. Well, that has become prohibitively expensive for a lot of larger apartment buildings. And coming up, one of our in-house investment coaches in the race is going to be joining us from Florida, where they're building new construction duplexes and for plex's affordably. And they're selling them to investors like us at just a 5.75% interest rate. That's straight ahead. I'm Keith Winfield, you're listening to get Rich education. Jerry, listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS.


Speaker 1 (00:23:18) - 42056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plex. So start your prequalification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge. Personally, though, even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate. And I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2 jobs income. They've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love.


Speaker 1 (00:24:29) - For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, 686, six. This is Rich dad advisor Tom Wheelwright. Listen to get Rich education with Keith Reinhold and don't quit your daydream. It's always valuable for you, the listener and me as well. To have a market discussion with one of our in-house investment coaches were doing that today. Naresh, welcome back onto the show.


Speaker 3 (00:25:23) - Is Keith looking forward to talking?


Speaker 1 (00:25:26) - Let us know what's happening from your view. I mean, give us your perspective on the real estate market today and any drivers or trends.


Speaker 3 (00:25:35) - Look, Keith, I've been working as a real estate investment coach for about four and a half years now. I've been a real estate investor for about six and a half years. I've been working with for two years now, and it's great because it's almost like I'm a leading indicator on what's going on with inflation, what's going on with the housing market, because I see it in front of my eyes in real time.


Speaker 3 (00:26:02) - I have it on my spreadsheets that are in front of me. Of all the different properties that were sold or inquiries that we get from clients right now, I am actually seeing a slowdown this month of November compared to the first ten days or the first 20 days of the previous month. There's definitely somewhat of a slowdown. We're getting more complaints or nagging from clients saying, oh, I'm not able to rent out my property for as much as I thought I'd be able to, or my property's been vacant for longer than usual. What this is telling me key is, at least in my state, look, home values vary based on geography. We know that home values are like the weather. The weather is not the same everywhere. For the most part, I think you're going to see that national home values peaked a month or two ago. Rents certainly peaked about two months ago. What I mean by that is we saw rents go up precipitous just going up, up, up since January 2021 nonstop. And they finally peaked.


Speaker 3 (00:27:17) - And when I say peak home values, peak rents don't mean that they've crashed. I don't mean that they've gone down. They've just peaked and leveled off. So I haven't seen a decline in rents. I haven't seen a decline in home values from two months ago. I'm just saying they've leveled off. And so I actually expect this inflation or I expect inflation CPI moving forward to go back down. I know that we did see a blip up for a few months, but I think we're going to start seeing things go back down as the fed old rate study appears. They're done raising for good, and they're just going to ride it out with how it is currently. And then once unemployment crosses, probably 4.5%, if at all, that does cross 4.5%, that's when they're going to start cutting. If unemployment crosses 4%, then they're probably just going to wait it out until inflation hits that 2% target. And so what does this all mean for real estate. What does this mean for interest rates. Low interest rates I've talked about peaks.


Speaker 3 (00:28:28) - We saw peak mortgage rates. Also it looks like mortgage rates peaked. And they've slowly crept back down not significantly to a point where as an investor you're like, oh let me jump in. No. But think we saw mortgage rates as well. So again, what does this all mean. This means 2024. We're almost a month away from 2024. I think it's going to be a great opportunity to jump in, because you'll be able to catch the real estate market that's going to hit some type of bottom in 2024. You're going to see mortgage rates go back down in 2024. That also means today because remember, Keith, I've come on your show before talking about incentives that providers who we work with, partners who we know personally and who we've worked with for many, many years, we've been offering incentives that make up for this high inflation, that make up for the higher interest rates. And those incentives are very likely going to be gone in 2024 as mortgage rates go back down, as the home values maybe decline slightly.


Speaker 1 (00:29:39) - We want to talk about some of those incentives later, about how providers are buying down the interest rate for you on rental property, but rates, I think perhaps the most interesting thing you said, the thing that I didn't expect is that you're talking to some investors out there where they're telling you about how they have more or longer vacancies than they had expected. I didn't think that I would hear that from you. Is that a pretty small sample size, or is that passed by apartments versus single family homes or entry level versus luxury or anything else?


Speaker 3 (00:30:13) - I'm talking about single homes, so can't speak for apartments. I'm talking about cookie cutter, entry level, single family homes. This is in multiple different markets. So not just in one city. This is in multiple cities states. We're seeing vacancies. We're seeing, like I said, the rent growth rate that was previously being used six months ago, eight months ago, the property managers have had to use a lower rate because there's been a decline. So it's not surprising.


Speaker 3 (00:30:44) - There's just no way that the country would would have been able to survive with rents going up the way they were going up with home values going up the way that we're going up. So there was bound to be a stoppage. And so we've seen that stoppage in home values, we've seen that stoppage in rents. And when I say stoppage again, not a decline in rents, not a significant decline in home values. But they leveled off from their peaks. And that's just how the business cycle works. Every 30 years or so when we see super high inflation, it's not surprising that I'm seeing this. But this is what's going on in the market right now, from Florida to Tennessee and Alabama to Ohio, in Missouri, Kansas City.


Speaker 1 (00:31:31) - For about five months in a row now, we have seen wages be higher than inflation. But of course that's just stated CPI inflation. And then there is quite a lag effect there too. If wages do exceed inflation, when will that eventually catch up to higher rents? We don't really know.


Speaker 1 (00:31:50) - But one thing we do know over the long term is rents are historically very, very stable, even more stable than home prices. It was so unusual when rents were up about 15% year over year, a year or two ago. You don't typically see that rents tend to stay stable, and they sure are stabilizing lately. What do you have any other thoughts as you look around the market and race? Because you often talk to our followers in there, they get a hold of you for you to help lead them through contracts and connect them with the right properties and providers that can meet their goals. So what are our followers asking about?


Speaker 3 (00:32:27) - Our followers right now are fearful, which is very common. Fear always rules people's minds and they're fearful of a crash. And look, there are certain real estate asset classes, commercial real estate, which you've talked about for a while, is going through a decline right now and could be going through a major crash as many of these commercial real estate owners default on their mortgages or their loans, their commercial loans, there is a concern that there could be a crash in the housing market.


Speaker 3 (00:32:58) - Meredith Whitney, who really famous real estate banker, I believe the only woman to call the 2008 financial crisis. She called it back in seven. Meredith Whitney came out a couple of weeks ago and said, there's going to be a decline in home values, and I'm here to tell you that there has been a classic line on values. And will that continue? It could continue where there's a, again, a slight decline. So don't see a crash coming. The reason is because I feel like the economy, the banks are much healthier today than they were. And let's say at 2007, the people who have been laid off, we're going to see unemployment continue to go up. It's not the 10% plus that we saw during the pandemic or the really we reached close to that 2008, 2009 or so. I just don't see something systemic to where there's going to be a housing market crash. And it's all about supply. Housing supply is still very low. So until the supply catches up to the demand, think the real estate market is going to stay healthy.


Speaker 3 (00:34:14) - And if you're looking to buy an old over a 30 year period, if you're looking to buy and rent for cashflow, it's still a great time. Right now, there's just certain asset classes. Like I said, commercial real estate. Maybe wait for the crash. They're short term rentals. The worst time to get into short term rentals would have been a year or one and a half years ago, 18 to 20 months ago. That space has declined because there has been a decline in travel, leisure, airfare, corporate expenses, the corporate trips. There has been a decline. So we don't promote those often. They're available. What? We don't promote them often, but that's another asset class that could be ripe for, I want to say, a crash, but a big decline when it comes to cookie cutter, entry level Single-Family homes. I just don't see this huge crash that people have been waiting for over the last 15 years.


Speaker 1 (00:35:13) - Right. As you know, I've talked extensively about how it's virtually impossible for that to happen.


Speaker 1 (00:35:19) - And yes, everyone wants to know what's coming. It surely has been a consensus among analysts and others that mortgage interest rates have peaked and or the fed funds rate is done increasing in this cycle. Many seem to think that next year, if rates come down, that that is really going to push home prices through the roof. I don't know if that's necessarily true, because typically a cutting of rates coincides with an economic slowdown or a recession. So I think a cutting of rates next year that could result in a moderate price increase. But of course, we have to remember that some of that supply is going to come once rates go down, you will have a few more people motivated to sell. You also have a lot more people motivated to buy and that can qualify as well. But the rates think a lot of people really in this cycle lately, when they've seen higher mortgage interest rates maybe than some people have seen in their entire investment life, you know, they feel like they kind of want to get some sort of break, but they sort of want to wait and see what happens with the market.


Speaker 1 (00:36:20) - But we actually have something to talk about here where they can get a break. They don't have to wait and see with what's going on in the market. And that's with what is taking place in Florida.


Speaker 3 (00:36:33) - That's exactly what's taking place in Florida. We work with a provider who is going to be on with us. We're hosting a webinar with them about a special 5.75% interest rate. The lowest interest rate that we see across the board with any provider we work with from Alabama to Texas, etcetera. So they're coming on our webinar. They're going to promote and discuss that 5.75% program that they have, as well as a 2 to 4 program. That's two years of free property management, 2% closing cost credit into $4,000 release fee. You might say, well, why do I need a $4,000 release a credit? Because their best properties or highest cash flowing properties. Highest returning properties are quads and duplexes. So these are huge breaks that will reduce the amount of money you need to bring to close and look. If you're a high net worth or if you're a high income earner sucking it up and paying the 9% interest rate today.


Speaker 3 (00:37:37) - If that's what you decide to opt for with the 224 program, 9% interest rate, or 8% interest rate today, it'll save you on your taxes, the mortgage interest tax deductible, and in 5 or 6 years, you can just refinance, most likely at an ultra low rate, maybe even sooner than that. So still, there are some really good deals. If you work through us, then we can help you find some really, really good programs and incentives so that it's like going back to 2020 or 2021, when interest rates were super low, or when there was less cash that you had for bringing to the same level. So we have that definitely recommend that people check out this webinar. It's great webinars. Com you can register for it over there. I'm going to be on it's Monday November 27th. That's Monday, November 27th at 8:30 p.m. Eastern Time. So people on the West Coast can finish up work, attend the event. People on the East Coast can finish up dinner, put their kids to sleep and attend the event.


Speaker 3 (00:38:43) - So I look forward to seeing everybody there. It's a special, special webinar, special deals, special promotions only through the average education.


Speaker 1 (00:38:54) - So the 5.75% rate, if I remember from previously narration, it's a ten year fixed rate and a 30 year amortization at those terms. And then is one choosing between the 5.75 rate and the 224 plan that you described. Is it one or the other? Can you get.


Speaker 3 (00:39:12) - One or the other? It's one or the other. Because to get that 5.75% rate, yeah, the builder is paying the lender a lot of money. And to lower those points, they're buying points to to get you the investor that rate. So it's one or the other. And by the way, that 224 program the purchase price is negotiable. So that's also why I like that 2 to 4 program. Because you can go back and forth and I can help you out negotiate the price, maybe shape 10 to 15 maybe $20,000 if it's a high ticket item off the purchase price. So makes the numbers look even better.


Speaker 3 (00:39:54) - That's my favorite program, the 5.75% program. That might be right for some other people, so that's fair to.


Speaker 1 (00:40:02) - Else about the property prices and types.


Speaker 3 (00:40:06) - So this provider we work with has single families, duplexes, four plex quads all available. The price points are anywhere from $250,000 to $800,000. Everything is new construction. That's also in flux, as in the single family is just cash flowing much. So I would say go for a duplex or a quad. Duplexes are around $400,000, give or take 20,000 over under, and quads are somewhere between 650 to $800,000.


Speaker 1 (00:40:45) - Okay, so these are brand new build properties in Florida. So yeah we're talking about entry level rental homes here. The asset type that seems to have the greatest dearth of supply in housing, entry level single family homes. You just have such a good chance to own an in-demand asset that everyone is going to want over time here. Do you have any last thoughts about this webinar trace, which you're going to help put on for people? That way the participants can ask you questions.


Speaker 1 (00:41:16) - They can ask the provider questions, any question they want to, things about the physical property, things about just how they bought down your rate to 5.75% for you, or how they can do the 224 program for you. Those are some of the benefits of attending. You can have your question answered in real time there with narration. Do you have any last thoughts about this event that's taking place on Monday? The 27?


Speaker 3 (00:41:39) - Well, you definitely want to register at Jerry webinars. Jerry webinars. We already have more than 50 people registered and now this episode is out. I'm sure we're going to get another 100 or so. Like you said, people can come on and ask some questions, actually talk to us, interact with us. Last time they wanted to these webinars, it went like 2.5 hours. People were having such a great time. We went into the wee hours of the night just talking to all sorts of folks, answering questions. It's super interactive, really educational. The best part is completely free and you get goodies and perks and incentives back in return for ten.


Speaker 1 (00:42:17) - Now, look, I know that some of these incentives have got to sound terrific to you, the listener and viewer here. I just want to pull back and take a look at things. More fundamentally. This is truly investing. This is not speculating. You own a piece of Florida land in a house constructed of commodities. On top of that land, from wood to steel to concrete. You already know about Florida's In-migration. We've talked about that at nauseam on the show here, and it's not speculative because you're purchasing something for rent production, not a speculative endeavor. Over the long term, people will pay you in order to live in a property that you provide to them. I mean, this is the sort of thing where you could even if say, you have a spouse or a mother that has nothing to do with real estate knowledge, they don't know anything about it. You can explain this to your spouse or your mother and they would understand. So it's easy to understand where your income comes from.


Speaker 1 (00:43:12) - It's really fundamental. I don't know how long the 5.75% rates are going to last, because this same provider had a lower rate a few months ago. I told you then I didn't know how long it was going to last and it didn't last. Now it's 5.75%, which is still a great rate. I really encourage you. Sign up. It's free. It's our live event next Monday night, the 27th at 8:30 p.m. eastern, 530 Pacific. Again, you can What a great update in race. Thanks so much for coming back into the show.


Speaker 3 (00:43:46) - Thanks, skeet.


Speaker 1 (00:43:53) - If you're unsure about making it on the live event on the 27th, but it interests you, sign up and we might be able to get you access to the replay, but you want to watch it soon because the properties available are limited. And again, I don't know how long the 5.75% rate will last. You think you've heard every amazing Florida In-migration stat by now? Well perhaps not. In the latest year over year, Florida saw 740,000 people moved there.


Speaker 1 (00:44:23) - Yeah, basically three quarters of a million in just one year. That is truly astounding. That's clearly the most of any state in the country. And with all the growth, Florida's property market became recently the second most valuable in the US last year that bumped New York down to third place. That's according to Zillow. So this population growth is leading to a prosperity increase in the value of Florida property. So I think a lot of people get focused on these things, like wondering if the fed will raise rates another quarter point at their next meeting, and if that's going to show up in mortgage rates. And they wonder about the mortgage market in the future, and it feels like something that you cannot control. But now you can with this rate, buy down courtesy of the builders. So joining us on the webinar to learn all about it. Again, it's all new build and we make that really clear and spell it out for you. In next week's live event, you get to select from one of the two options.


Speaker 1 (00:45:29) - To make it clear here, either a 5.75% rate or the 224 program, which means two years of free property management, 2% of the purchase price and closing cost credit, and a $4,000 lease up fee credit. Sign up. It's free. It's our live event next Monday night, the 27th at 8:30 p.m. eastern at 530 Pacific. Register at GRC webinars dot com. Until next week. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Don't quit your day. Great.


Speaker 4 (00:46:02) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 1 (00:46:30) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.

Direct download: GREepisode476_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

I don’t keep much money in a savings account, money market account, or treasury bonds. They only pay 5% interest.

Instead, I get 10-12% cash returns and semi-liquidity by private lending on real estate and operations with Freedom Family Investments.

My guest, the company CEO, Dani Lynn Robison and I discuss how it works. They’re a family of 7 real estate-centric companies.

They pay me 10-12% on a loan that I make to them that funds their real estate and business operations. You can too. It’s called their Master Note. 

Text FAMILY to 66866.

These private lending programs have just a $25K minimum, accredited and non-accredited, returns up to 12%.

Rather than getting in on the equity side here, which is usual, you’re getting in on the debt side. This way, you’re more liquid than when you buy property yourself.

We discuss 3 vital investor questions: Who do you trust? Where do you begin? What’s the best path for you?

Dani Lynn & I discuss a good investor outcome. We also discuss how when things went wrong, the investor/lender still got completely repaid.

I can personally tell you that they’ve always paid me on-time and in full.

Some people don’t like to share where they personally invest, but this could really help you.

Vocabulary terms explained: financial runway, demand depositor, time depositor, vertical integration.

If a high-yield passive return of 10-12% sounds interesting to you, text FAMILY to 66866.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

For 10-12% returns with Master Notes with 

Freedom Family Investments:

Text “FAMILY” to 66866

Dani Lynn Robinon’s book, “Get Real”:

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. 

You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

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The importance of increasing income (00:01:28)

The speaker emphasizes the importance of increasing income rather than cutting expenses and discusses the concept of a financial runway.


The need for liquidity in real estate investing (00:04:05)

The speaker explains the need for liquidity in real estate investing and recommends having 3 to 5% of the total value of a real estate portfolio in liquid funds.


Investing in residential real estate for strong returns (00:06:44)

The speaker discusses the benefits of lending to the long-term stability of residential real estate and related businesses, highlighting the potential for strong returns.


The acquisition and growth of Freedom Family Investments (00:11:35)

This topic covers the growth of Freedom Family Investments, including the number of units acquired, funds raised, and the value of their portfolio.


The concept of vertical integration in real estate (00:12:38)

This topic explains the concept of vertical integration in the business world, specifically in the context of real estate companies. It discusses how vertically integrated companies have more control over their supply chain.


The Master Note Program by Freedom Family Investments (00:15:45)

This topic introduces the Master Note Program, a lending program offered by Freedom Family Investments. It explains the program's features, including high yield returns, liquidity, and the option to compound interest.


Private Money Lending and Investing in Materials (00:20:57)

Danny explains the process of private money lending and how investors can invest in materials for discounted prices.


Expansion of Opportunities for Passive and Active Investors (00:23:34)

Danny discusses the various opportunities available for passive and active investors, including turnkey real estate, private money lending, and funds.


Minimum Investments and Accredited vs Non-Accredited Investors (00:26:22)

Danny explains the minimum investment amounts and the options for accredited and non-accredited investors, as well as the different investment opportunities available for each category.


The trust question (00:30:14)

Importance of trust in investment, transparency, and how to choose trustworthy partners.


The worst deal (00:32:21)

A story about a bad investment deal, the importance of honoring commitments, and how volume can mitigate risks.


Get Real (00:35:28)

Introduction to the "Get Real" book series, the importance of authenticity and transparency in real estate investing, and the power of sharing failures.


Time Deposit Accounts and Demand Deposit Accounts (00:38:36)

Explanation of the differences between time deposit accounts (like CDs) and demand deposit accounts (like checking and savings accounts).


Vertical Integration in Business Strategy (00:38:36)

Definition and explanation of vertical integration as a business strategy where a company takes ownership of multiple stages of its supply chain.


Financial Runway (00:38:36)

Definition of financial runway as the amount of time one can maintain their lifestyle without the need for a paycheck.


Complete Episode Transcript:


Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Why settle for growing your money at a 5% interest rate in a savings account, money market account, or treasury bonds? You could earn double that or more. In fact, we're talking about exactly where I invest my more liquid dollars myself, often with a real estate centric backing. Today on get Rich education.


Speaker 2 (00:00:28) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:00:51) - We're going from Hartford, England, to Hartford, Connecticut, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, you're listening to episode 475 of the Get Rich Education Podcast, the Voice of real estate investing since 2014. Don't live below your means. Grow your means. It's in your genes. Most people tie up so much life energy in their job, and they're scared to death of losing their job because it provides everything to them, not just their salary, but their health care, their retirement, and even who they are.


Speaker 1 (00:01:28) - And then even their very identity is in their job now. So that might be okay, especially if you truly get a deep existential meaning from your job and you get that sense. In fact, in that case, thank you. You're probably serving society, and I might be a beneficiary of that. But now we isolate the fine part of your job. It is a real mystery to me how so many study, how work works, so few study how money works. And yet money is the main reason that people go to work. In the personal finance world, it's more important to increase your income, then cut your expenses. Spend more time building a cash flow statement. See that's constructive to your standard of living, not a budget which is destructive to your quality of life. Think of residual income in terms of what I'd like to call your financial runway. Your financial runway. Yeah, it is that amount of time you can maintain your lifestyle without the need for a paycheck. So the length of your financial runway is measured in time, and it is critical for you to lengthen this runway if you hope to retire early and it can dramatically reduce your stress.


Speaker 1 (00:02:49) - Level two well, that can create outcomes so that you can say, go on a super long vacation and make your ostentatious display of time wealth as it is now. At some point in your life you probably listen to and had. The real estate pays five ways epiphany. And it is really compelling to then keep the majority of your capital invested there, for sure. But you likely don't want to keep absolutely 100% of your dollars there because you need some liquidity to fund the operations of your daily life. In fact, you can make the case that you need more liquidity than a non real estate investor does. Now, a six month emergency fund is the rule of thumb for laypeople, but on top of that is real estate investor. It's also a good idea to have 3 to 5% of the total value of your real estate portfolio in liquid funds. Now, a lot of people hold liquidity in a bank, and you do that as either a demand depositor or a time deposit. In fact, in banking vernacular, do you know the difference between demand deposits and time deposits? Well, demand deposit accounts, they include things like checking accounts, savings accounts and money market accounts.


Speaker 1 (00:04:05) - And they're called demand deposits because they allow you to withdraw your money from the account whenever you want to. That is different from time deposit accounts, like a CD, which requires you to deposit your money for a specific length of time. So that's the difference between a demand deposit and a time deposit. So time deposits like a CDS certificate of deposit. Therefore they pay you a high your rate of interest in exchange for your reduced liquidity. Now with that understanding, let's take a time out here to remind ourselves of something. When money flees the stock market, which it often does, it usually ends up in bonds as demand for bonds goes up, their interest rates go down. Then, as bond interest rates go down, investors go back to stocks in pursuit of yield and everything reverses. So that is an ebb and flow of funds, which creates a degree of equilibrium. But it also moderates your return. And you're also never going to get in and out at just the right time trying to time those markets.


Speaker 1 (00:05:22) - So when it comes to your dollars that you don't have being actively leveraging real estate, you know you can't hit every note in the symphony yourself with just one investment vehicle. It takes an orchestra full of your prosperity, all your dollars, all playing their notes boldly to help you hear the complexity of the. Position. Well, when you park money at an everyday bank or a treasury bond. Either way, you're now making a loan and oftentimes the exact way that that loan is backed your collateral that's actually unknown to you. Well, instead of that, what we're talking about today is that you can lend to the long term stability of residential real estate and related businesses and still get a strong return. And yes, I'm focused on the resilience of residential, just like we have here at from day one. Now, when it comes to something more precarious, really touchy section like office real estate. We work. They're expected to seek chapter 11 bankruptcy protection after that embattled office space company missed interest payments that it owed to its bondholders.


Speaker 1 (00:06:44) - So instead, you can keep your more liquid and semi liquid dollars working for you as a loan to someone else in residential, and enjoy some of the condensation on that pipe with returns that are about double what you can get on a 5% savings account today. Now, today it is the right time to talk about returns of 10% plus, because just a year or two ago, we were in this inversion where inflation was higher than interest rates. That's atypical. In fact, in June of last year, CPI inflation peaked just over 9%. And you got to ask yourself, how attractive is a 10% return on your liquid dollars? If inflation is 9%, well, that's not attractive to you at all because you real rate of return would only be 1% in that case. But now with inflation down, you can get a higher real return again. Today, interest rates are higher than stated CPI inflation and even the true rate of inflation. If you know where to look for that and you have a sense for what that is today, I'll help you know where to look, because it's exactly where I invest my liquidity today.


Speaker 1 (00:08:02) - See, in order to do this, it's really investing like a billionaire. And you don't need to have some wealthy sounding name like Brandon Meriweather, Rudiger, Bertram Lawrence, Perry Bottom or Carruthers Davenport. You don't need any names like that. You just need the knowledge. No, I guess I won't call you Carruthers if you preferred, but I think you'd sound like a guy that blows rings of smoke into people's faces. And I don't think that's a good look for you. We'll talk to the custodian of my funds here shortly. I make private loans to her company. She and I both serve on the Forbes Real Estate Council. She is a strong visionary, and she's not afraid to discuss problems either. That's something I really like. In fact, I'll be sure that comes up. This could really help you today. That's next. I'm Keith Weinhold in your listening to get Rich education. Diary listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS. 42056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone.


Speaker 1 (00:09:10) - They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plex. So start your prequalification and you can chat with President Caeli Ridge personally, or even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate, and I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2 jobs income. They've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866.


Speaker 1 (00:10:27) - Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, 686, six.


Speaker 3 (00:10:39) - This is Hal Elrod, author of The Miracle Morning and listen to get Rich education with Keith Weinhold and Don't Quit Your Daydreams.


Speaker 1 (00:10:56) - Okay. I'd like to welcome back onto the show today, the co-founder and CEO of the whole operation Freedom of Family Investments. There's seven real estate centric companies based in Centerville, Ohio. By the way, the other co-founder is her husband, Philip, whom you've heard on the show before. Hey, we are graced with the presence of Dani Lynn Robison.


Speaker 4 (00:11:15) - Hello, Keith. I'm so happy to be here.


Speaker 1 (00:11:18) - So good to see you again. I've got to congratulate you on your success. You've got 62 team members. They're now in your vertically integrated companies. And by the way, that's a term vertically integrated that might throw some listeners off. I'm going to come back and explain just what that term means. They've done over 1500 deals now.


Speaker 1 (00:11:35) - They've acquired 600 plus units since 2020, and they've raised more than $20 million through podcasts and word of mouth. And they now have a portfolio valued at $32 million. Plus, they've been in real estate since 2008. And they'll tell you that they have a perfect track record of always returning investor capital, including to me, I'm one of their investors and paying 100% of the returns as promised, even if they themselves lost money on a deal. We'll talk about what losing money on a deal looks like in a moment. And in fact, you, the listener, you've probably heard me talk about how I personally participate for a high yield return with them myself, with Danny Lin's company backing me near the middle of Gary. Episodes like this right here. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%.


Speaker 1 (00:12:38) - Well with having. Listen to that. Danny, I want to ask you about your master note program shortly. But first, since this is get rich education, emphasizing the education part here, I think the term vertically integrated, that might throw some people off. It sounds like a mouthful. And. And what is that, Danny Lynn seven syllables. But it is a term that you, the listener, you see that and hear that across the entire business world, vertically integrated. That's a term for a business strategy where a company takes ownership of two or more stages of its supply chain. So, for example, a vertically integrated automaker, they might produce automobile components and vehicles and also sell directly to customers. All right. That's ownership of multiple stages of a supply chain. So to me it comes down to vertically integrated. It means that you now have more control. So Danny tell me about how that vertical integration applies to your seven real estate companies.


Speaker 4 (00:13:41) - You nailed it. As far as the definition and really why we created all of the companies when we first initially created our turnkey real estate company, we hadn't had the intention of bringing everything in-house.


Speaker 4 (00:13:54) - But as we outsource different pieces of the renovation or the property management, we found that the lack of control that we had was hurting us and hurting our investors. And so one by one, we would bring in a company. So first was renovations. Because of all the contractor nightmares that many fix and flippers have experienced themselves. We had them too, and in spades because we were doing volume. So we brought that in-house first so that we can control the subcontractors and the project management and the scopes of work and how we paid our contractors. The next thing we brought in house was property management. And then we had a brokerage so that we could just list our properties on the MLS internally and keep that in house as well, since we had to have a broker anyway. And then acquisitions got brought in-house because the wholesalers were buying all of our deals from went dry with deals and we're like, hey, we need deals. And so we brought the marketing in-house and started doing acquisitions. And then I've told this story of drugs, thugs and bugs many times about our 56 unit apartment complex.


Speaker 4 (00:14:54) - That led to company number six, which is our funding syndication company. That was a really great company because it allowed our private money lenders to be able to start putting their money to use 24 over seven instead of going in and out of deals. And then company number seven is going to be a hard money lending company, because as we've raised all of this capital, we found that there's times we have excess capital and we don't want to say no to incoming investors. So we started using that to network with our mastermind groups and saying, hey, let us know if you've got a deal going on. We'll underwrite it. And if we feel like it's a good deal, we'll go ahead and lend on that deal for you. And it allowed us to keep putting that money to work for our investors. So it's been really fantastic. Help us as an internal company, helped our investors be able to earn more returns and helped other our entire network just do more things with us.


Speaker 1 (00:15:41) - That's a vertical integration. And like that it hadn't heard that before.


Speaker 1 (00:15:45) - Drugs, thugs and bugs can lead to an epiphany that creates a new company bringing more in-house. So you have to listen to the least you need to remember is vertical integration. That means control. And one of your company's vertically integrated into that, Danny, is something that can benefit the listener here, and that is your lending arm. Now, your most popular program for giving everyday investors high yield returns is your master note program. That's actually a common program in the private lending industry, but some might not know about it. So go ahead and talk to us about what your master node program is.


Speaker 4 (00:16:25) - So this was brought to us by an investor who was working with us and said, hey, I love your private money lending program. You know, I've researched you. He actually found us on Forbes and came to our office and visited and said, I would really love to lend, but I don't necessarily want to keep going in and out of deals. And so we worked with an attorney and said, hey, what can we do in order to keep an investor's money at work? And so he talked with us and we explored different ideas, and we kind of went back and forth between us and the investor and the attorney and ultimately created this program called the Master Note Program, which offers investors 10 to 12% returns.


Speaker 4 (00:17:03) - It offers them liquidity so they can get cash out at any year that they want. So they'll invest in every single year they have the opportunity to say, hey, I'm going to go ahead and give you 180 days notice to get my cash back. So the liquidity piece has been really, really powerful, especially for private money lenders, because they reason that private money lenders like that program is because they know that, that they're going to get their capital back in 12 months or less. And at that point in time, they're going to say, hey, do I want to invest again? Yes, okay, I do. Or hey, I could use this money for something else that I was waiting for. And in the meantime, it was earning interest while I was waiting to use it for this other avenue. So the master note program was really just meant to have flexibility and to be able to customize the program based on the investor's goals. So what we've done is created a five year auto renewing note.


Speaker 4 (00:17:55) - So that way these investors can say, hey Danny, I've got $100,000. I'd like to invest that with you. And at that $100,000 level, that is 12% interest. And so they put the money in, and they know that every single year it's either going to auto renew or they're going to say, hey, I'm ready for the money to come back to me. And it also allows us to give them compound interest. I would say over half of our investors are not investing with us for distributions or cash flow. They actually are investing with us because they trust us and they trust our track record, and they want their money to grow. And so they actually choose to compound instead of taking the distributions, which allows for faster growth.


Speaker 1 (00:18:39) - Your master note program 10 to 12% returns. I know it's just that 25 K minimum. So it's really available to investors. So okay. Unlike an all say five year certificate of deposit from a bank that might only pay you 5%. Plus you're illiquid for five years.


Speaker 1 (00:19:00) - With a conventional instrument like that, you can cash out your master note any year, or you can just keep rolling it over. You have the option.


Speaker 4 (00:19:09) - Exactly right. And so what's interesting is we all like liquidity. I know Philip and I like liquidity. It's nice that you got this peace of mind that you can access your capital if you choose to do so, but in reality, most of us leave the money exactly where it's at. We like to see the growth. We like to see, you know, the returns that we're getting. And we get excited and we're like, where else am I going to put this money? So I love having the ability to get it back. But I would say 95% of the people in our master program and even our funds, after they get to the period in which they committed to, whether that be a year or three years, just depends on the vehicle that they're using. They stay there like, I love this, this is fantastic. You can keep my money and just keep it growing.


Speaker 1 (00:19:51) - Real estate is largely thought of as an equity based investment. You're the listener, putting 20 to 25% down and borrowing the rest. That's great. We talk about the virtues of doing that all the time, but you are not very liquid when you do that. Here. We're getting on the opposite side rather than being on the equity side. You're on the debt side, you're making a loan and you have higher liquidity this way.


Speaker 4 (00:20:18) - Exactly right. And so with our master Note program, the way that we worked it out with the attorney is it's used for both deals and our business growth. So that's really important that I think that we talk about because the private money lending. Let me give an example. Private money lending. You are going to maybe loan a $70,000 and that's going to cover an acquisition and rehab of a property. But maybe you had $100,000 available. Now your $70,000 is backed by a lien on that property. And then once we're done with the rehab and once we resell the property, then we're going to give you all of your capital back, plus the interest that you were owed for the time that we borrowed your money.


Speaker 4 (00:20:57) - Now, this is where our private money lender said, Danny. Danny, will you keep my money? And if you're a private money lender, I have to say no, I can't. I have to give you back your money because you have to sign a release of mortgage. There's a lean on that property. You have to sign the release that you got your capital back, and then we can give you another deal. And that might take two weeks or two months. What the most master program provided for investors was allowing them to invest with us still being used on deals, but for our protection, if we didn't have a deal to put money into, then we can use it for the growth of the company. So right now we're actually partnering with another investor who is out of Columbus, and we are creating a home supply company of materials. We have this opportunity to buy materials at huge, huge, massive discounts. And so we're working on acquiring the office space that we're in, which has 20,000ft² of warehouse right next to us, and we're going to buy in bulk all of these materials.


Speaker 4 (00:21:54) - And not only is that reducing the cost of our business and our rehabs, but now we can help other investors in the local area save money. And we have created a revenue stream. As a result, the growth of all the companies has been a result of working with investors exactly like this. So now the investor gets to say, hey, Danny, I'm going to give you $100,000 and I'm going to invest it in this master note program. Now they got to use $30,000 or more of their capital, as opposed to the $70,000 example I use for private money lending, so they can put all the capital they want to use. And then me, if I have a $70,000 deal, that I'm still going to use it on that same deal, and it's owned by our company, and then that other $30,000, then I can use it for things like we're buying materials in bulk, and it's allowing us to save money on those rehabs. It's allowing us to create another revenue stream. So it allows us to have a little bit of flexibility, and it allows the investors to have a higher return, still have that liquidity piece and still have it backed by real estate and or our business.


Speaker 1 (00:22:59) - Well, what an explanation. And you know what's interesting, Danny Lee, and listening back to that is the realization that most bank depositors don't have any idea how that bank is investing their money. They don't know how their deposit is backed at all. But with an explanation like that, that's substantive, we really do hear. So it's really an interesting contrast. We discussed the details of your master note program, including where you can get up to a 12% return. Tell us about the other opportunities that you have besides your master Note program.


Speaker 4 (00:23:34) - Because of our vertical integration, we have many different things that we can offer. If you're a passive investor, we have turnkey real estate. We do have private money lending, the master node program. We have funds that also provide great returns. And one of them we're getting ready to launch in the next couple of weeks, is offering even more liquidity, allowing people to get in and out in 90 days. So for those who don't want to wait a full year, maybe they just want it.


Speaker 4 (00:23:59) - Hey, I just want to put my money to use and I want to have this access to it every 90 days. We're now allowing people to have that option, and that is really a reflection of our conversations with investors in seeing what they want based on today's market, today's economy, what they feel comfortable investing in. So that's some of the passive investor opportunities for our active investors. We don't typically serve them. But I thought, hey, you know what? We are buying all of these deals and we're getting all of these leads, some of the deals we don't want, maybe because we have enough and we don't want to buy another one because our rehab team is stretched and we don't want to have a house sitting for a couple of months for our rehab team to be able to get to it sometimes. There's other reasons. So now we are starting to wholesale properties to investors who are active, that are wanting to flip the properties themselves for a higher profit. And because we are vertically integrated, we said, hey, if you want to buy one of these wholesale properties that we're not buying ourselves, we have a renovations department, we have a property management department, we have a brokerage.


Speaker 4 (00:24:58) - So if you're an out-of-state investor, you've got an entire team you can leverage through us to be able to buy a property as is, get it renovated, and then either sell it on the market or hold it and have our property management company look after it. So we're just continually trying to expand what we can do in service of other investors.


Speaker 1 (00:25:18) - I love that we can let the term vertically integrated just roll off our tongue. Now that everyone knows that, it means having control of multiple portions of the supply chain of their business, a real estate business. In this case, again, we're talking with Danny Lynn. She is the co-founder and the CEO of Freedom Family Investments. You deal with investors on both the more active side and the passive side smartly. I know, Danny Lin, that you don't call turnkey real estate investing passive, even though it's mostly passive. It's not completely passive. You have both passive and active sides. You know what investors want. You know the pallet of items to offer them with what interests them.


Speaker 1 (00:26:00) - So with that in mind, tell us just a bit more on the landscape overall in just how you serve people. I know a lot of them. For example, they might wonder, do I need to be accredited or do I need to be non accredited? And tell us more about the minimum investments amounts kind of that bar to clear in order to participate with you, just like I am myself.


Speaker 4 (00:26:22) - For the minimum investments, it's $25,000. That's typical for turnkey properties. That's typical for our master node program, and then $50,000 for some of our funds, also our private money lending program. And then for the accredited versus non-accredited, we have both options. So there are rules as to when we can offer certain investment opportunities if you're non accredited. So things like private money lending, turnkey investing, master node program those are all opportunities for non accredited investors. And then for our accredited investors we have funds that are it's 506 C. It's a little bit technical but it's the way the SEC says hey you can talk about this.


Speaker 4 (00:27:01) - You can advertise it but you can only allow accredited investors inside. So as we work with our attorney we are like, okay, we don't want to serve just accredited investors. So how do we make sure that we're serving both at the same time? And so we've made sure to just really have a variety of offerings. And I talked to people a lot about what you said about active versus passive. I think that's a really, really important conversation because many people who are getting into the real estate game, they don't know whether they want to be active or passive, and so many of them end up being active first, only to realize they just created another job for themselves. And then they go, okay, I don't want to do this anymore. I actually want to live a quality life. I want to spend time traveling. I want to spend time with my spouse or my kids and just enjoy life. And I didn't mean to create another job, even though it is building wealth. And then they move to the passive side so that they can get mailbox money or have their money working for them while they sleep, or while you are traveling like you just got back from traveling.


Speaker 4 (00:28:05) - Keith and I loved watching your Facebook post, right? I love having that educational piece of really talking to somebody about what their goals are, what the quality of life is that they want, so they don't make a mistake of going active, only to feel like they lost some time because the active journey is difficult, like it's not been easy to build seven real estate companies, and we've got two more in the wings that we're getting ready to launch that we talked about even the the home supply company. It's not an easy road. You make a lot of mistakes, you lose a lot of money. And so when somebody has capital to invest in, their goal is to grow their wealth, build wealth, have a legacy, be able to retire and not worry about money. Going the active route may seem like I'm going to make more money because I'm going to get the big chunk of equity, but it ends up being something where they learn the hard lessons themselves and then usually waste a lot of time and energy and frustration, only to realize that they probably could have made equal, if not more on the passive side and not had all the stress.


Speaker 4 (00:29:06) - So I love really having that conversation with everybody. I love active and passive investors alike. It's just making sure that they truly know what journey they want to be on.


Speaker 1 (00:29:16) - In my mind, the term ROI return on investment is more active and a term that I've talked about wrote I return on time invested with that being considered that falls more on the passive side with you guys experience and understanding, you're surely quite cognizant of that. Why don't you talk to us about some of the other questions that you get from new investors, things that really they want to know about before going ahead and making a loan and participating in a lending opportunity with you.


Speaker 4 (00:29:49) - So the top three questions that we get is where do I start? Which path is right for me and who do I trust? And I actually talked to one of our investors who has grown his seed capital of $100,000 into $2.5 million with us over the course of four years that he's been investing. Every time he has capital, he's like, what opportunities do you have and where can I put my money? And again, we talk about compound.


Speaker 4 (00:30:14) - He has been compounding since day one with us and is really allowed his capital to grow extensively. I was interviewing him to tell his story about his journey with us and his experience. He actually said, you know, those questions are funny, Dannielynn. I would tell you that you should ask them in the opposite order. You should say, who do I trust? And then once you know who to trust, then ask, where do I start and which path is right for me? And I do agree that the trust question is the most critical piece of the puzzle, right? So many times I get on the phone and I talk to investors who have lost money working with somebody else, and so they've maybe heard me on your podcast or seen me somewhere else and heard me say over and over, private money lenders, our investors are our number one priority. I am never going to put myself in a position where they're not receiving their full capital back, receiving every single penny owed for the interest of the time that I was using their capital.


Speaker 4 (00:31:11) - And I'll allow myself to lose money to make sure that they get paid. And that's so important to me that I tell people very often they said, you want to work with people that will be transparent enough to say, this is my worst deal, this is what happened. And what you're going to get by asking that question is a revealing of their character. Yeah, who they are. How did they treat that situation? How was the investor treated in that situation and what happened? Did they tuck tail and run? Do they walk away, which many investors do? They get frustrated and they're like, oh my gosh, I lost all this money. What am I going to do? And they just they stop answering their phone. They stop answering emails. And then the investors are stuck with the house. I think the questions like that are really important. Looking at track records and just asking the hard stuff, understanding the true nature of a person. And then lastly, the which path is right for me is a question of really understanding that active and passive piece, and then understanding your goals when it comes to money, is it cash flow, is it growth? Is it tax benefits? Is it liquidity? What are the things diversification.


Speaker 4 (00:32:11) - There's so many goals you can have in investing. And if you don't know the questions to ask, then you might not be hitting the goals that you truly desire in life.


Speaker 1 (00:32:21) - We learned about a really good investor outcome there. How about a bad outcome or a worst deal? And then how did you cover that to make sure the investor is made whole?


Speaker 4 (00:32:33) - Our worst deal is a duplex in Dayton. And what happened was one of the reasons we brought our renovations company in-house, because we had a project manager, we had a runner, and one of the processes that we have is when the contractors are rehabbing a property, then the runner will go to the properties and just double check that what their invoice is saying, that they actually did the work and then we will pay them. So the project manager is trusting the runner. The runner is saying he went to the houses and we're paying this contractor. And it turns out one of the contractors had not done anything. The pictures that they were submitting to us was from another property they were rehabbing, so it looked like he was doing the work.


Speaker 4 (00:33:12) - The runner? Yep. The runner was relying on those pictures as his proof instead of actually going to the property and physically seeing the work being done. And we were paying them as a result of this hierarchy of process that we had. So we ended up having a property where none of it got rehabbed, and we paid the full amount of rehab to that contractor. So we had to pay for the rehab twice. So in this situation, we lost over $50,000. Our investor didn't even know what happened. And I say that not because we weren't being transparent, it's because we were going to do exactly what we said we were going to do. They were going to get all of their capital back, and they were going to get every single penny of interest owed. We ended up asking them at the end of 12 months, do you mind extending on this loan? We're still working on it. It's okay if you don't want to. We will still get you paid back, plus all interest, and we'll replace your loan with another private money lender.


Speaker 4 (00:34:06) - They said no, it's no problem. Absolutely. You can extend. So by the time it was all done we actually had the house fully rehabbed. We had lost a lot of capital. The reason that we can cover situations like that and make sure that we're honoring our word to our investors is because we do volume. When you do volume, I tell people, this is what I say. If you've been in real estate long enough, you understand you're going to lose money. You're understand that you're going to pull back walls and find things that you did not anticipate. So doing volume was our way of mitigating that risk. If we're doing ten deals a month and two of them go bad, well, we've got eight others that are covering the two that went bad. And so it's a numbers game for us knowing that we're going to find some duds, we're going to make some mistakes. And that's okay because we're playing the volume game.


Speaker 1 (00:34:53) - Ah, that harrowing story about the contractor and the rudder that comes back to the old Ronald Reagan trust, but verify they're right.


Speaker 1 (00:35:01) - So. Right. Well, thanks for sharing a more difficult story with us like that. Well, Danny, as we're winding down here, you do a lot of things there at Freedom Family Investments because you have this big holistic picture. Since you are vertically integrated company, and that's given you the experience and the wisdom. Do a lot of things. I know you have a book published and you're speaking at events around the theme get real. I own your book. Get Real. Can you quickly tell us more about it?


Speaker 4 (00:35:28) - So our very first book was Get Real, understand Real Estate Investing before it's too late. And it was just our first book. And it's going to be a series of Get Real Books was our first book to really introduce people that were new to real estate. What is it? Why do we love it? Why do we have such a passion for building real estate businesses and love that we can not only grow wealth for ourselves, but we can help other investors do the same? And then the get real part of it.


Speaker 4 (00:35:52) - The reason that we love this is actually one of my marketing team members, actually, you know him, Matthew. He's the one that came up with a Get Real brand. And it's really become something that people say, hey, Flip and Dani, you guys are so down to earth, like, I feel like I can talk to you about anything and you're so transparent. You tell us the ups and the downs and the crazy roller coaster rides, and there's so many people that are on social media or on podcast that will just tell you the rosy rainbows and sunshine stories, you know, as if nothing goes wrong. And I think reality is, is people want to work with people that are just more authentic, that are willing to share, hey, I'm human, I'm not perfect. We're going to make mistakes, but watch how we correct those mistakes, watch how we act during those situations. I think if you can do that, you actually gain more trust. And that's something that surprises a lot of the masterminds that I'm in.


Speaker 4 (00:36:43) - When I say they say, how do you have so many investors? How do you raise so much capital? I'm just like, I'm just authentic and transparent about everything that we do. And that garners a lot of trust in the people, because not a lot of people are willing to talk about their failures. That $50,000 loss on a duplex. And I don't know why, but it builds trust instead of loses it. And their jaw drops to the ground going, oh my goodness, I can talk about my failures. And I'm like, yes, start. People want to know that you're real. So I think that that get real concept is important. So we're going to keep on building creating some more books. We have investors that are giving us ideas of, hey, write a book about this. So we're going to keep on releasing them. And we're also speaking in events nationwide and just really just getting down to earth for people and letting them know, hey, stop telling yourself your can't. Anybody can build wealth.


Speaker 4 (00:37:32) - If you run a great podcast, you have so many loyal listeners and we love talking to them, and you have helped educate people for years and years and years, and we just need more people out there doing that.


Speaker 1 (00:37:45) - Well, thanks. The name of the platform and book is Get Real, Danny. Dannielynn, in closing, why don't you let our audience know about the best way to reach out to you and learn more about your private lending programs, including your Master Note program? Because for you, the listener, if this sounds interesting, here you go. Mean this is where I tie up a lot of my liquid funds for a high return. Let our audience know how they can learn more.


Speaker 4 (00:38:11) - All you have to do is text family to 6686, six.


Speaker 1 (00:38:17) - Dani Lynn, it's been valuable. As always. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.


Speaker 4 (00:38:21) - Thank you so much, Keith. It's an honor.


Speaker 1 (00:38:29) - Yeah, good stuff from Dani Lynn Robison of Freedom Family Investments. Today, let's review what we've learned.


Speaker 1 (00:38:36) - Demand deposit accounts, which include things like checking accounts, savings accounts and money market accounts. They allow you to withdraw money from the account whenever you want, whereas time deposit accounts like CDs require you to deposit your money for a specific length of time. Vertical integration that's a term for a business strategy, where a company takes ownership of multiple stages of its supply chain and the term financial runway. That is, the amount of time you can maintain your lifestyle without the need for a paycheck. As you know, I often like to leave you with something actionable. Their Master Note program offers 10 to 12% returns, some liquidity, and just a 25 K minimum. And another way to think about it is that, in fact, then that is a 10 to 12% cash on cash return. And if you're interested in being more nimble than that, there are other lending programs where you can get a strong return with just 90 day liquidity. And to get started on any of them, or simply learn more. Text family to 66866.


Speaker 1 (00:39:45) - Until next week where we've got a great show for you. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Don't quit your daydream.


Speaker 5 (00:39:55) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 1 (00:40:23) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get Rich

Direct download: GREepisode475_b.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

Will higher interest rates and inflation persist for a decade?

An upcoming recession always seems to be perpetually just around the corner. Learn when it should finally happen.

Macroeconomist Richard Duncan joins me. I tell you a funny story about when he was GRE’s first-ever guest in 2014.

Currency is now being destroyed—called Quantitative Tightening.

Negatives for future asset prices: QT, higher rates, student loan debt repayment, stronger dollar, asset prices already inflated, high personal asset-to-income ratios, higher oil prices, looming government shutdown.

Positives for future asset prices: monetary stimulus hangover, high employment, CHIPS and Science Act, Inflation Reduction Act, The AI Revolution, prospect of lower future inflation and interest rates. 

Richard provides his opinion and insight on today’s real estate market.

If inflation-adjusted credit growth is less than 2%, expect a recession. If it goes negative, expect a depression.

Get a 50% Discount on Richard Duncan’s MacroWatch video newsletter. Use the code “GRE” at:

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Get a 50% Discount on Richard Duncan’s MacroWatch video newsletter. Use the code “GRE” at:

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—

text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:


Direct download: GREepisode474_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 3:00am EST

Failed deals. Capital calls. Lost investor money. A dreadful and sobering conversation ensues for many in some commercial real estate sectors.

Residential (1-4 unit) and commercial (5+ unit) real estate fortunes are decoupling. 

Multifamily commercial loans are at the mercy of interest rate resets.

Residential is stable due to low supply and sustained demand.

Neal Bawa from MultifamilyU and I outline the multifamily problem. Values have plummeted 25%. 

The magnitude of the multifamily problem is about 1/80th of the 2008 Global Financial Crisis.

There are two reasons for the office apocalypse—both declining income and increasing expenses.

Only 3% of office buildings in downtown cores have a floor plan that can be converted to residential. Dreadful. 

There will be possible discounts in the hotel industry due to a lack of funding and loans.

Retail has surprising bright spots.

We discuss the future of rents through 2026.

Will multifamily problems create contagion into 1-4 unit residential? We discuss. 


Multifamily industry changes and challenges [00:00:46]

Discussion on the new difficulties faced in multifamily, such as failed deals, capital calls, and banking industry challenges.

Opportunity arising in the multifamily market [00:01:12]

Exploration of the current opportunity in the multifamily market due to a 25% reduction in prices from the peak, caused by distressed transactions and high interest costs.

Anatomy of the problem with floating rate debt [00:05:57]

Explanation of the issues faced by apartment building owners or syndicators when they have floating rate debt without rate caps, leading to potential deal blow-ups.

The rate cap issue [00:08:29]

Discussion on operators neglecting to buy a rate cap or buying a rate cap set too high, leading to negative cash flow.

Magnitude of the multifamily reset problem [00:09:47]

Comparison of the current multifamily reset problem to the global financial crisis, highlighting the challenges faced by operators.

Challenges in refinancing properties [00:12:10]

Explanation of the challenges faced by properties in refinancing due to decreased net operating income and increased mortgage costs, leading to potential loss of investor money.

The availability of multifamily loans [00:16:50]

Neil discusses the availability of commercial real estate loans, particularly in the multifamily space, and how it differs from other asset classes.

Lending challenges in the commercial real estate space [00:18:03]

Neil talks about the severe lending challenges faced by asset classes like office, retail, and self-storage, while expressing confidence in the stability of multifamily lending.

Contagion and the impact on the 1 to 4 unit space [00:20:56]

Neil discusses the limited level of contagion that could affect the 1 to 4 unit space due to problems in the multifamily market, highlighting the healthiness of the single-family market and institutional interest in it.

The Troubled Office Sector [00:25:35]

The speaker discusses how the office sector is facing a long-term demand crisis due to the decrease in office occupancy and the challenges of converting office buildings into residential units.

The Ten-Year Problem in the Office Sector [00:27:06]

The speaker explains that the office sector is about to face a ten-year problem, with defaults and declining values affecting the downtown core and other assets.

Bright Spots in Retail and Hotels [00:29:21]

The speaker highlights that retail occupancy is higher than multifamily occupancy, and despite the Amazon effect, retail is doing well. They also mention that hotels have seen strong recovery post-pandemic.

Hotels and Multifamily Discounts [00:32:55]

Discussion on the current cash flow opportunities in hotels and multifamily properties, potential discounts in the next 12 months.

Retail Reinvention and Rents in a Recession [00:33:57]

Exploration of how retail can sustain itself through experiential offerings, the resilience of rents in past recessions.

Artificial Recession and Rent Growth [00:35:33]

Analysis of the possibility of a recession and its impact on rents, the strength of the US economy, and the expected short duration of the recession.

The recession and its frequency [00:40:56]

Discussion on the frequency of recessions and how they are a normal part of the business cycle.

Learning opportunities at [00:41:31]

Information on the webinars offered by multifamily ewcom, covering various topics including single-family and multifamily projects.

Appreciation for Neil Bawa's insights [00:42:22]

The host expresses gratitude for Neil Bawa's informative contributions and welcomes him back on the show.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Neal Bawa: and

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE’s Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—

text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:



Complete episode transcript:


Speaker 1: Today's guest is well known as the mad Scientist of multifamily. He's a data guru, self-described self-described process freak, and an outsourcing expert. He's a ten figure man with his billion dollar plus multifamily portfolio and his 900 plus investors. He's also the CEO at a multifamily education company because he's a really good teacher. It's been about a year and a half since you were first here. Welcome back to Neal Bawa.


Speaker 1 (00:00:40) - Well, thanks for having me back on. It's it's a delight to be back. Had a fantastic conversation with you last time. So I'm looking forward to this one. We did.


Speaker 2 (00:00:46) - The last one was so fun and spirited. But my gosh, since then, Neal, about a year and a half ago, so much has changed in the multifamily industry. We know that a lot of new difficulties have come into multifamily, like failed deals and capital calls and the need to raise bridge debt and banking industry challenges.


Speaker 2 (00:01:06) - So where would you like to start to help give us some perspective on all that?


Speaker 1 (00:01:12) - Well, think opportunity is finally here. You know, when when we talked a year and a half ago, I was I said things like, well, prices are too high. I said things like, I don't know where the margins are. I don't know how people make deals work. I don't know how they make them pencil out. Right. Um, in some ways, I'm still saying some of those things, but it's certainly not because of pricing anymore. So, you know, the single family market is a perfect sort of benchmark for the world that live in multifamily. As far as I know, in the last 12 months, single family prices have either been flat or up 1% or down 1%, depending upon which analyst you pick. But it's certainly been an extremely, extraordinarily stable market in terms of prices, where it's it's you know, the volume, of course, has cratered. It's down a ridiculous percentage.


Speaker 1 (00:02:00) - Whereas multifamily was an industry that has hurt more because of the portion of multifamily that was purchased or traded in the 2020, 2021 and 2022 time frame. Almost all of those trades happened using bridge loans which were floating, whereas almost all single family transactions were 30 year fixed loans. Right. So so two completely different things have happened. Normally the single family and multifamily market tend to be in lockstep. And that's certainly been the case for ten years. But over the last 18 months, single family and multifamily have separated from each other. And the big reason for that is almost all of the distressed transactions that you're talking about, that you're alluding to all of those cash calls. They are related to bridge loans, which had floating debt. And that floating debt has gone from, you know, 6% to ten, eight, you know, 11%, even for for some of these, these operators making it extremely difficult to make numbers work, making it very difficult to pencil. But on the good side, we've now seen compared to the peak, which was probably about 20, 21 months ago, we've seen a 25% reduction in prices, which is huge because we mean multifamily usually as an asset class, doesn't go down 25% simply because it its value is based on rents, you know, and rents rarely go down.


Speaker 1 (00:03:22) - They hardly went down for 6 or 7 months in 2008, so we didn't see much of a decline there in 2008, simply because, you know, the, the, the income was strong, but this time, the much, much higher cost of interest means that our overall post mortgage income is down. And that's why prices are down 25%. So both opportunity and distress in the multifamily space.


Speaker 2 (00:03:46) - That's such a staggering number. So let's frame that. Multifamily prices down 25% since their peak or year over year. And then just to be clear, we're talking about five plus unit residential apartment buildings with that figure.


Speaker 1 (00:04:01) - Yes, I'm glad you asked the question that way because I do need to qualify a few things. So so first thing is down from peak and depending upon different markets, the peak was either the last quarter of 2021 or the first quarter of 2022. And in a couple of markets, even the second quarter of 2022. So it's I'm not saying year over year, it's basically they're down 25% in the last 18 or 20 months.


Speaker 1 (00:04:25) - Um, so the second piece is that the down 25% is predominantly, let's call it hotter markets in the United States. So if we're talking about a steady Midwest market like Kansas City or Indianapolis, then you're probably seeing a decline of half that amount. So maybe 12.5, 13, 14%, where if you're talking about a very fast growing market, you know, all the Texan markets, the Floridian markets, then you might be seeing declines of that 25% level, since a lot of the transactions that did happen in the last two years were in the faster growing markets, that 25% number is still reasonable. And some people listening to this show might say, no, I don't think 25% is right. It's more like 20, it's more like 18. So I'll. Be at that by saying it's a pretty wide range. We're seeing as little as 18% in some of these fast growing markets, you know, hot markets. And we're also seeing markets like Phoenix, where we're seeing 27, 28% declines in price.


Speaker 1 (00:05:23) - Also, the the range is dependent on the number of units. We are seeing smaller declines if you've got less than 100 units. Right. So smaller properties, we're seeing a smaller decline maybe 15%. And then when we are seeing properties that are 300 units or more, just the whoppers, we're seeing 30% declines in those assets. So so a lot of it is really dependent upon, you know, because the bigger the size, the harder it is to finance it these days, the less the banks want to take a risk on it. So the bigger the property, the harder, harder it's hit at this point of time.


Speaker 2 (00:05:57) - The bigger the property, the less liquidity. So maybe, Neil, to help the listener get a full understanding, maybe you can take us through the anatomy of where a common problem is with what happens to an apartment building owner or syndicator when they got this floating rate debt and they didn't get a rate cap and rates spiked? What exactly happens that makes these deals blow up?


Speaker 1 (00:06:24) - Right? First, want to, you know, set the size of the of the problem.


Speaker 1 (00:06:28) - Right. So when you compare it to 2008, it's not comparable in 2008, the total size of distress or you know, potential distress was 8000 billion or $8 trillion. So it was it was a it was an absolutely staggering event. Luckily, not a lot of that distress actually happened. So that was good. But the the total size of distress was in that $8 trillion or $8000 billion range, the total size of distress in the multifamily market appears to be in the $100 billion range, so about 1/80 of the size of the distress in 2008. So keep that in mind. Also, as a percentage of the overall multifamily industry, there's about 100,000 multifamily properties in the United States that are on the bigger size. Let's call them more than 50 units. There's 20 million apartment units total. 100,000 are the bigger properties. Of those 100,000, the distressed portion of the portfolios is about, from what I can tell, about 3000 properties. Maybe it could be as much as 4000, but 3000 is a very common number.


Speaker 1 (00:07:30) - So about 3% of the properties are distressed. And why are they distressed? Multifamily has been doing incredibly well. Rent growth has been phenomenal, especially in 2021 where it was 15%. Just so you know, they the 50 year average is about 2% rent growth. So 15% is you know, champagne time. So so we've certainly had positive trends. And we continue to see positive trends. You know there's there's less and less people can afford a mortgage. So there's basically a you know brand new renters being created every day because of mortgage rates being this high. But the, the the downside was that a portion of those 100,000 properties were purchased in late 2020, 2021 and then, you know, 2022, and they were purchased using floating debt. And the the so we're talking about those 3000 properties. Those 3000 properties either didn't have a rate cap. So when when you you're purchasing using, you know, bridge debt or floating debt, you want to buy a rate cap. So if rates do go up they hit that cap.


Speaker 1 (00:08:29) - And then anything above that cap is something that the rate, you know, cap selling company reimburses to you. So that way you're not affected by but by going above that, well, some of these operators neglected to buy a rate cap, which was a really bad thing to do. But then there were others that other operators that bought a rate cap, but their rate cap was set too high. So, you know, they basically didn't think that rates would go up. So they did put a rate cap in. But instead of buying a rate cap at 6% or 7%, they may be bought a rate cap at 8 or 9. They were basically looking for the worst case scenario, and so they bought the cheapest rate cap that they could find. And now, you know, rates have gone up and they've already hit that rate cap. Maybe it's eight and a half or 9% and it had eight and a half or 9%. That mortgage is still too high for that property to cash flow. So now the property has negative cash flow.


Speaker 1 (00:09:18) - So there's I personally know of a few dozen properties where the negative cash flow is between 20,000 and $200,000 a month. And that negative cash flow means that the syndicators, the the general partners are basically putting that money in themselves, or they're taking short term loans and they are now looking for a solution there and their solutions are limited. I can give you a list of those, but their solutions are limited because the property is is negative cash flow and nobody wants to touch a property that's negative cash flow.


Speaker 2 (00:09:47) - Did we say that he's a data driven guy or what? That was some great perspective that the magnitude here of the multifamily reset problem has been about 1/80 of what the problem was in real estate during the global financial crisis. That was a great way to put things in perspective. Yeah, Neal, you know, it's such an interesting mindset that an operator would have the awareness to buy a rate cap with their floating rate debt, but yet not have the cap be low enough in order to keep them out of trouble.


Speaker 2 (00:10:20) - That's really unusual to me. Do you have any idea what percent of operators have bought a rate cap with their floating rate debt?


Speaker 1 (00:10:30) - I think a majority of them have. So I'd say more than 50% of the properties that were purchased during this time did have caps, but a lot of the caps were set high. So that that was a very common thing, where the caps were set to 8% or higher, as opposed to them being set at, you know, 6 or 6.5%. So it's more of a high cap issue rather than a no cap issue. And I think the bigger the secondary challenges, let's say let's say they had a good rate cap, right? So I bought it. Let's say you bought a property in the, um, let's call it the final quarter of 2020. And you bought a two year rate cap. And the rate cap was good. It was 6.5%. Yeah. Good for you. Right. But that rate cap was a two year rate cap. So now it expired basically last year.


Speaker 1 (00:11:14) - And so since last year you're now up at 10 or 11%. And, you know, a year's gone by. Your property is bleeding. Maybe it was doing well, but now that it's been bleeding for a year and you've been paying all of that bleed out of your operating expenses, now you're in trouble. And maybe you bought it. Three rate cap. Well, if you bought the property in the final quarter of 2020, then in about a month or two months from now, we're in the final quarter of 2023. Well, that rate cap is going to be gone. And then maybe in the next three, 4 or 5, six, seven months, all of your operating budget, all of your operating, you know, fund is going to be, you know, gone because you have this much higher mortgage. So what's happening is that this is one of those situations where there isn't a trigger on any one particular day, and a huge number of properties come to market. There were a lot of properties purchased in the final quarter of 2020, all four quarters of 2021 and the first three quarters of 2022.


Speaker 1 (00:12:10) - Right. So you're looking at a total of eight quarters. So each quarter, a certain percentage of those properties get to the point where either their rate cap is gone. Right. So it's finished because you bought a one year or two year rate cap, or they're they're at the point where even without the rate cap, their loan is expiring. So a lot of these bridge loans were two year loans and three year loans. And so the vast majority of the challenges that the multifamily industry is going to face are going to be in 2024, because that's when a vast majority of either rate caps or mortgages expire. And because because the net operating income of these properties has gone down and the and the mortgage cost has gone up, most of these properties cannot be refinanced. So I'd say out of the 3000 properties, you could probably refinance using some mechanism, a thousand of them, maybe a third of them. And that could be, you know, do a cash call, get, you know, money from your investors.


Speaker 1 (00:13:07) - Or you could do what is known as a pref lending, where you basically take money from an outside party and that outside that extra money helps you refinance into into perm debt. So those are your options. And the third option, which is likely to be most common, is that you go out and sell your property. But from what I'm seeing, the vast majority of these properties that don't get refinanced. So out of 3000, the 2000 that don't get refinanced are likely to come to market, and the vast majority of them will end up losing all of their investor money or a majority of their investor money. And so you, you know, if it's a $100 billion problem, that's, you know, we're talking about 30 to $40 billion of investor money, and a majority of that 30 to $40 billion could be lost.


Speaker 2 (00:13:48) - Yeah, that is troubling and really concerning as far as those LPs, those limited partners, those investors in someone else's syndication, hopefully that syndicator, that operator is communicating with their investors.


Speaker 2 (00:14:03) - But for investors, is there anything they can do to identify cracks in the arm or where they might be losing their deal, where they might be losing their money, where they might be throwing good money after bad if a capital call is requested?


Speaker 1 (00:14:18) - I think it's a very difficult thing to do for a limited partner because you have, you know, you have more, you have much more exposure to the deal than you would when you invest in the stock market, where you know, there's almost no exposure unless it's a public company. Um, but and these are all private syndications. But I think that a lot of investors simply don't know how to read the, the budgets versus actuals. They don't necessarily know how to read the Performa. So it's it's challenging. So if you're somebody that is. Comfortable doing that. I suggest you dive in and basically ask a lot of the questions of the syndicators. I have one such property, so, you know, I was lucky in that during that time a lot of my colleagues had I have people who I know colleagues that bought 10 to 12 properties during that time frame.


Speaker 1 (00:15:02) - It was very normal. I bought one and a half. So one of those properties was my own property, exited one of my partners. So I call it a half a property because it was already mine. Um, and then I bought purchased one other property in a military metro. So I was able to get it for a lower price because it was a military metro. And usually the prices are lower for, for for military towns and, and that property, you know, I'm having the same challenges that I've described. So, you know, the the rate cap issues and the fact that basically prices have gone down by 25%. And I'm dealing with it by constantly communicating with my investors, giving them, you know, options. You know, here's, you know, how when, when we were when we were all selling these these shares to investors, we gave them a, um, a sensitivity analysis showing them, you know, worst case scenario, best case scenario, you know, in a middle case scenario.


Speaker 1 (00:15:55) - And so now we're basically doing a sensitivity analysis based on what we are seeing in the marketplace today. And and giving them feedback on what our options are and think a lot of it comes down from the the general partners communicating with the limited partners. And if the your general partner is not very communicative, is not giving you information, ask for one on one meetings, ask for you know, more information in their webinar or in their updates. I think this is a time for limited partners to be vocal.


Speaker 2 (00:16:25) - You've learned about the problem in the larger apartment space. You've learned about how operators and apartment syndicators are dealing with the problem. And then, Neil, where do you think that we're going next and think maybe we should ask and look at it through the lens of where do you think we're going next with the availability of multifamily loans, could this help the source of capital dry up?


Speaker 1 (00:16:50) - And so I think the answer is we are going to a very dark place with availability of commercial real, you know, loans.


Speaker 1 (00:16:57) - Multifamily is in a privileged asset class. So, you know, the the term commercial real estate is sometimes meant to include multifamily, sometimes not. So I'll assume that multifamily is part of commercial real estate, but there are many other asset classes. So there's office which is the next biggest asset class. There's retail hotels, there's self-storage, you know, and and a few others like mixed use. And of those commercial real estate asset class, there's only one that's privileged and that's multifamily because there are not one, not two, but three lenders who are government or quasi government organizations whose only job it is to keep lending in the multifamily space liquid, and also the single family space liquid. And they are Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and hard. Right. So Housing and Development Authority. So these three lenders right now are extremely, extremely active. And what has happened is that in in good times, call it 20 early 2022. You had life companies. You had all these private, you know, bridge capital, you had all kinds of capital that was lending to the multifamily space.


Speaker 1 (00:18:03) - Now some of that capital has backed off. There's still a huge percentage, I'd say probably 40, 50% of all loans that are being done today are these kinds of private, you know, groups. But think the government or quasi government groups are much more active today and their lending. So I don't think multifamily lending dries up at all. I don't think that that's the case. I think it dries up for the non privileged asset classes, hotel, retail, self-storage, office. These are the classes that are likely to see, you know, near lending dry up especially because on a fundamentals basis there's absolutely nothing wrong with multifamily. In fact as I mentioned I think we're a lot better off than 2019 to 2023 given that home prices have gone up 40%, incomes are only gone up 15%. So there's a very large number of Americans that simply cannot qualify for a single family home anymore. And so those people have to go to apartments. So the the fundamentals are really good for apartments. That is not true of office.


Speaker 1 (00:19:02) - So office is an asset class that is experiencing the worst fundamentals it has seen in its entire history. And so I do think that there's going to be very severe lending challenges in the commercial real estate space. But I haven't really seen that multifamily, and I don't anticipate seeing it in the future as well.


Speaker 2 (00:19:20) - Well, I don't know if any of that could have as much fun as last time. There were rather gloomy subjects to discuss here with Neal and come back. Can this problem in the multifamily space create contagion for the 1 to 4 unit space? And like with what Neil touched on, what about other commercial sectors like office and retail? How troubled are they when we come back? This is get recession. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. 


Speaker 2 (00:20:14) - Welcome back to Get Rich Education. We're talking with the mad scientist of multifamily, a big brained visionary. He's also an excellent teacher. I'm sure you can tell as you're listening to him here. And if you're listening in the audio only Bawa is spelled b a w a new. Here on this show, we talk an awful lot about investing in the 1 to 4 unit space and the advantage of the 30 year fixed that long term fixed interest rate debt. Do you see any areas for contagion with problems in the multifamily five plus unit space bleeding over into the 1 to 4 unit space?


Speaker 1 (00:20:56) - Yes, but to a limited level, I think that the the 1 to 4 unit space is the healthiest that I've seen in a very long time.


Speaker 1 (00:21:05) - And there's reasons for that. One of the biggest reasons is multifamily, which is the most well sought after asset class for institutional investors who don't typically don't usually like the 1 to 4 unit space. There's a few companies in that space, let's call them half a dozen, but there's several thousand companies that invest in the multifamily space. Some of them are right now looking at single family as a, you know, as a, you know, safe haven to park some of their money. Right? So there's, you know, more institutional level interest in the single family space because of its access to those, you know, those those 30 year fixed loans. So there's and the fact that single family prices basically haven't declined. So I think that there's there's a lot of interest in the single family space. Um, keep in mind that millennials are reaching their peak years of household formation. So they started in 2019. So until 2025. So from 19 to 2025, those are the peak years of household formation for millennials.


Speaker 1 (00:22:01) - And that's also putting a cushion under the single family space there. Contagion is some form of contagion is inevitable. I think that the office market is going to see spectacular levels of contagion, similar to 2008. I think that the other associated markets, like hotel and retail, are going to see some level of contagion, though I certainly don't expect it to be as bad as office. And then multifamily is going to see some contagion, as we mentioned, because of these 2 or 3000 properties that have to be basically sold into the marketplace and prices are down, which always creates contagion. Why? Because think about it. You're a mid-level bank. So a mid-level bank in the US is $250 billion or less in assets. Well, a lot of these assets are these banks are the ones that loaned out money to multifamily and retail and hotel and in office, and now are being forced by the Federal Reserve through a process known as mark to market. They're being forced to write down the value of these assets because these assets, you know, there's still you know, there's still active loans, but maybe they they loan $20 million.


Speaker 1 (00:23:00) - And now basically they're $20 million is only worth 18 or 16 or 15. And so now the fed is saying, hey, you know, you got to mark these assets down in value. And as they mark them down to value, that can lead to the banks becoming or mid-sized banks becoming less stable. I don't think this affects any of the large banks in the US, but the midsize ones are affected. And some of those mid-sized banks do lend to the single family space, but not a lot. I find that the single family space, when I look at their source of lending, not a lot of those mid-sized banks are involved. There's a little bit they do some brokerage work, but then they're selling those loans back to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and a bunch of other, you know, governmental type organizations. So I don't see a sense of contagion in the single family space. I do see potentials of some price declines because until about two months ago, mortgages were predominantly in the sixes. They, you know, they spiked up once to the sevens and then they pulled back into the sixes.


Speaker 1 (00:23:56) - Now they've gone into the sevens and they may stay in the sevens for a substantial amount of time. When that happens, that can affect the single family market as well, simply because, you know, you can get to the point where supply is higher than, than demand. So I wouldn't be surprised if there's a pullback in single family prices. Let's call it 5%. But I'm not predicting the kind of challenges where the office market think we could see 40% declines in prices from peak, whereas single family you might see 5%. I think that's still an incredible outcome for the single family market compared, you know, just looking at the outrageous increases in prices since Covid don't I don't think that's a even a pullback. I would just say that's a balancing out.


Speaker 2 (00:24:44) - Who know the residential housing market. Really, it's something that's non-discretionary on a human need basis. Everyone needs to live somewhere and they will either own rent or be homeless. And you talked about some of those affordability challenges before. The lower the homeownership rate gets, the more renters you have.


Speaker 2 (00:25:05) - So long term, we will have some demand baseline for both multifamily and properties in the 1 to 4 unit space, of course, but the same thing cannot be said about some of these other commercial sectors, especially the troubled office sector space, where you have more and more abandoned buildings downtown. And a lot of these office buildings cannot be easily converted from offices to residential units. So why don't you talk to us about some of those other troubled commercial sectors, starting with office.


Speaker 1 (00:25:35) - Office is in a apocalypse. I think that this is far, far worse than 2008 and far, far worse than than 2001, because 2008 and 2001, they were liquidity crisis. They were short term, you know, demand crisis. This is a long term demand crisis because, you know, I read very important documents from companies that are in the key swiping business. You know, when you enter an office in a downtown core, you're swiping your card. And so those companies actually have phenomenal day by day data of how many people are actually going into offices today.


Speaker 1 (00:26:11) - It's been more than a year since companies started calling back, you know, people to the office and think that by now every company, whether you know, they're they're forcing five days back to the office or four days or three days or two days, everyone's sort of, you know, put their line in the sand. And we're at the point where, you know, this, this is what offices look like going forward. And if I'm right and this is what it looks like going forward, it is simply catastrophic for the office market in the United States, because we're still seeing key swipes at 50 to 60% of the people that used to swipe in before Covid. And that number is staggeringly, staggeringly low. And if this is what it settles at, you know, some companies are two days, some three, some four. I think we're in for a world of pain for the office market. You also, you know, there's a lot of people that in these podcasts basically will often say something like, no, the office stuff will get converted into residential.


Speaker 1 (00:27:06) - And I have news for you, only 3% of office buildings in office in downtown course have the floor plate, the floor plate necessary for residential conversion. Why? Because residential conversion by law requires that every every single room have a window. So what is happening is most of the time you basically can only convert the buildings on the edge, the, the square footage on the edge of a building, but that's central core but then becomes worthless. And if you don't have a use for it, then you still have to buy that office building to convert and you have to buy it at a reasonable price. The math doesn't work. I mean, you'd you'd need to see office values down 80% for, for, you know, a somebody who's converting to multifamily to say, fine, I'll just leave the 60% in the middle empty and I'll just convert the size. So 80% declines in value are needed for that kind of conversion to happen. So we are about to see a ten year problem in the office sector.


Speaker 1 (00:28:03) - And it's also dragging down all of the other assets in the downtown core. So we are seeing we just saw a $727 million default on two hotels in San Francisco. We saw a $558 million mall default. Also in San Francisco, we're seeing defaults across the board in New York, Boston, Seattle, San Diego, Miami, sort of heavy markets where this these challenges are happening. We're seeing a lot of these and it's happening in a very, very slow way. Keith. And the reason for that is the office market, their average lease is, you know, five years long. Some leases are ten years long, and a lot of these companies haven't gone out of business. So if the company is in the lease, they're continuing to pay even though the office is empty. But the moment that lease comes up for renewal, either the company doesn't renew it or they renew maybe half the space. Right. And so we we already know that this is an incredible debacle, but it doesn't seem like it at any given point of time because it's happening in a very slow motion way.


Speaker 2 (00:29:02) - Well, that's such a good point about how there will be this slow drain, this slow leak when these office leases expire over time. What about other areas of the commercial space, any other particularly troubled areas or bright spots that you see going forward?


Speaker 1 (00:29:21) - Ironically bright spots. And this is where I've been proven wrong in the past. You know, I've often maybe 4 or 5 years ago talked about the retail apocalypse, right, where Amazon would basically, you know, lead the retail market to become illiquid. Well, none of those things have happened because of two reasons. One is the retail apocalypse with people like me, you know, being on on 200 podcasts, talking about it, a lot of development of retail that was scheduled to happen simply didn't happen. So the very.


Speaker 2 (00:29:48) - Late podcast, people lost confidence. No. They were invested in retail.


Speaker 1 (00:29:52) - Exactly right. So so, you know, I fulfilled that prophecy. Think. But bottom line is that there's there's been very responsible levels of new construction in retail.


Speaker 1 (00:30:02) - So, you know, they haven't built a lot. Very few models have been built in the United States in the last few years. And even some of the malls that have been repurposed, some of their square footage is being used up for, for multifamily. And so that was one. The second reason is that retail is being very careful with pricing. So, you know, over, over the last 5 or 6 years, the retail market has adjusted to new forms of pricing, where, you know, you go into a mall and you see a gym where before the pricing of that mall never really allowed for a gym to be in a mall. It just gyms, you know, they want, you know, a lower price per square foot. And so malls have adjusted, strip malls have adjusted. And so today we have a surprising event where retail occupancy in the United States is higher than multifamily. This is the first time ever that multifamily is about a little under 95%. Now it's 94% occupied.


Speaker 1 (00:30:52) - Retail is 96 or 97% occupied, which never happens, right? Normal. Normally retail is right around 90%, 88%, something like that. But the high level of occupancy shows that that retail is doing well. Now, having said that. So so on the occupancy side, they're doing really well. There's there's really no pullback in terms of demand. But on the other side, because of the fact that interest rates are so high, retail cap rates are very high, which means prices are low. So prices are very reasonable there for retail. And so I think that real opportunity that I'm seeing I wouldn't invest in office at this point, Keith, because you don't know the end of this process. You don't know how long it takes. I think it takes a decade. So I might get 50% off in office and I don't want it. I just don't want to touch that asset class. It's tainted. Now, if I get 40% off in retail, I think I'm interested because fundamentally I don't see a demand issue if this is the highest occupancy that retail has seen ever.


Speaker 1 (00:31:53) - And at the same time, I'm getting a 40 or 50% discount simply because of lack of lending. Well, that is to me a classic opportunity to look at because once again, fundamentally, nothing is wrong with demand. And I realize that the Amazon effect is extremely real. But what I'm seeing is that that people want that experience of shopping. And so even amongst the young people, sure, each year Amazon, you know, goes up a little bit. But now Amazon's growth is no longer a hockey puck. Amazon's growth is sort of like this. You know they're growing by 10%, 15% a year, which is still great for Amazon. But I think when you when you project that across a 300 million person market that the US is retail no longer has to fear for an apocalypse. So this is actually a pretty good time to take advantage of the 40% discounts that I think will happen in 2024 for retail. Same thing. Everything I just said also applies to hotels. Hotels came out of the pandemic very strong, with huge increases in ADR or average daily rates and huge, huge increases in occupancy.


Speaker 1 (00:32:55) - So hotels right now are a very robust cash flowing business. If you've got good hotels and good locations, you're making a lot of money. They're cash flowing like crazy because their orders have gone up and their occupancy has gone up. So they've taken two positive hits. But once again, I expect there to be discounts simply because of a lack of funding, a lack of loans. And you can you might we might easily see 30%, maybe not 40, but 30% discounts in hotels in the next 12 months. So think both of those are really good opportunities, along with multifamily discounts at 25%. So this is an opportunity. This is a case of distress creating unusual levels of opportunity. I don't think we're quite there yet, Keith. We're beginning to see some distress in multifamily. We're certainly seeing distress in office. We haven't heard anything about the distress in retail or hotels yet. That's because a lot of their their loans don't don't trigger until 2024. Right. So that's we'll see what happens next year when these loans start to trigger and you can't really refinance them.


Speaker 2 (00:33:57) - I completely believe that inflation has thoroughly soaked in to hotels. You talk about their ADR, their average daily rate. I've recently stayed at hotels in Denver, Omaha, Chicago, Toledo and Boston, so I've gotten a pretty good sample size and sure feel the hit there. And interestingly, the last time I shopped at a mall, it was the biggest mall in this city, and I noticed a bowling alley that I had not noticed there before. And I went bowling and noticed an ice skating rink was there. So I just wonder how much retail can reinvent itself if it tilts enough into the experiential part, rather than just buying items off a shelf at a store, maybe that can help sustain that retail sector, to your point. Well, Neil, maybe we should wrap up really on what supports an awful lot of values in multifamily, and that is rents and the direction of rents, especially if we have almost hate to say this. R-word, a different R-word, a recession, because it seems like this thing has been around the corner forever.


Speaker 2 (00:35:03) - I know historically that rents are quite resilient in a recession, something that you touched on earlier back even during the 2008 global financial crisis, when I was a landlord, I owned fourplex buildings. Then I noticed that I had a pretty good steady stream of renters. My rents didn't really go up much, but they were really resilient. They didn't go down, and that's because people couldn't get a loan. So that was an affordability problem. Then we have another affordability problem now. But if we do tilt into recession, what do you think that is going to do to rents?


Speaker 1 (00:35:33) - I think we are going to see a decline in rents if a recession happens. Now, that's a question. By the way, six months ago, if you told me, you know, a recession wasn't going to happen, I'd say, no, that's not possible. We are going to go into a recession. However, I must admit that the US economy has truly, truly, truly outperformed beyond anyone else, beyond anyone's imagination.


Speaker 1 (00:35:54) - So today, the chances of a recession are certainly not 100%. Might be 50%. But let's assume that it happens and a recession happens. I think what is very, very likely is that this recession will be very short. So once again, if you're not paying attention to to to what's happening in the marketplace, this is a time that, you know, I was born in India and this is my adopted country. I feel very proud of the US economy today. If I compare the US economy to the Canadian, the eurozone, the Germans, the Japanese, we are outperforming every one of those economies. We're at the point where we're outperforming China, which almost never happens, by the way. And so we have an extraordinarily resilient and strong economy at this point. So if it falls into a recession just because the fed keeps hitting it over the head with this interest rate hammer, I think that recession will be fairly short, because as soon as the economy does go into a recession, the fed usually figures that out within a few months.


Speaker 1 (00:36:47) - Then they can stop hitting us with a hammer. I'm not saying that they'll just cut interest rates back to zero, but they certainly will provide some cushion. Maybe they cut rates by one one time, two times, just to make the market breathe a little bit easier. Because this is an artificial recession, there is no shortage of demand in the US economy. There's an incredible number of open jobs. There were as many as 11 million jobs now. Now there's about 9 million open. So there's there's a and wage growth has been so strong. Right. Because we have so many people retiring that at this point, for the first time since the early 60s, I believe, or late 60s, we actually have pricing power. So anyone who wants to be employed can ask for more money and get it. And so wage growth has been about four, 4.5%, which is really good for rents, by the way. It's phenomenal news because we needed wage growth for future rent growth. So we have a artificial recession if it does happen.


Speaker 1 (00:37:38) - And that artificial recession is being caused by the fed because they want that wage growth to come closer to 2% from the 4% that it's at, because everything else has come down. Right. So commodities have come down with the exception of oil, and so has, you know, so have the supply chain issues are gone, rents are down. So in the US the last 12 months, rents were flat and in some markets they might be down 1% or 2%. Austin I think was the only market that was down a lot. But most other markets were down very, very small amounts. So rents have been flat, which is, I think, really credible because if you look at rents over the last two years, they're up 16%. So in 2022 they were up 16%. In 2023 they were up basically zero. So if you average that out now you're looking at 8% rent growth, which is phenomenal compared to the long term average of 2.5%. So we've been outperforming on rent and we needed to take a breather in the last 12 months have been that breather.


Speaker 1 (00:38:32) - Now, if the recession happens, I do expect rents to go down, but not normally they don't. So in a in a in a six month, three month or six month average recession, you know, the average US recession is two quarters. So six months normally you don't get rent drops. You might get, you know, the rents plateau out. Or maybe their rent growth drops from 3% to 1%. That's that's much more common this time. We might see rent growth in a short recession drop by maybe 1% or 2%. And the biggest reason for that is supply. The largest supply of apartments in the history of the country is delivering, starting basically the beginning of 2023 until the end of 2024. So these two years, 2023 and 2024 are massive apartment supply years. And obviously, as you supply 500,000 apartments into an economy that overall is not outperforming, is is doing okay, but and it starts to go into a recession, then you're going to see some concessions. And that concession drives down the price of multifamily, which then drives down the price of single family rentals.


Speaker 1 (00:39:36) - So we could see a decline in rents. I'd say probably 1% to 2% is is possible, but that decline is likely to be short. So I think let's assume that the recession starts in the final quarter of 2023, which might not happen. I think it's more of a Q1 and Q2 of next year. If the recession does happen, those are the two most likely quarters. As soon as the economy rebounds and becomes positive, we should see very strong and stable rent growth. Well, I would say stable rent growth for the rest of 2024 by 2025, a lot of that incoming supply is done. So now supply supply and demand are in balance. So in 2025 I expect strong rent growth as much as 4 or 5%. And in 2026 I expect very, very strong rent growth. We might we might see 6% rent growth in 2026. So 2024 is that year where rent growth is a little bit shaky because of this. Word, the recession word. And, you know, whether it happens or not is we don't know.


Speaker 1 (00:40:37) - And when it happens, we don't know how long it lasts. But I think because it's an artificially induced recession, it's likely to be the vanilla US six month recession, which basically drives wages closer to that 2% target for the fed, and gives the fed the room to start easing up on interest rates.


Speaker 2 (00:40:56) - Recessions are not good. Perhaps the one positive about a recession is that then we can all stop talking about and speculating upon when does eventually happen, because on average, it does happen every five years. It's just a normal part of the business cycle. Well, Neal, this has been very informative around the multifamily world and beyond, including projections for the future. You've always got such great insight in stats on the pulse of the market. If someone wants to learn more about you and your resources, what's the best way for them to do that?


Speaker 1 (00:41:31) - Come join us at multifamily. That's multifamily, followed by the letter we get about 20,000 registrations in our webinars. We do about a dozen webinars each year.


Speaker 1 (00:41:41) - We do them on single family multifamily. We do them on other asset classes like office. We just did one on on on the office apocalypse and people like that because there's no education fee, there's no subscription, there's no upsell. People come join us. They learn a lot. And occasionally during one of these webinars, if you have a multifamily project that we are doing, we mention it for about 30s. And if that sounds like it's interesting, you can, you know, jump in and you know and participate. But otherwise, you know, there's a lot of tens of thousands of people that have never participated with us in any of our projects that come and join us at this ecosystem of learning called multifamily


Speaker 2 (00:42:22) - Neal Bawa, Gro Capital and multifamily It's been informative, just like it was the last time you were here. It's been great having you back on the show.


Speaker 1 (00:42:32) - Thanks for having me on, Keith.



Direct download: GREepisode473_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

Before our PA Governor-appointed public official guest joins us, I discuss how autonomous cars expect to change real estate.

Richard Vague, Pennsylvania’s Secretary of Banking and Securities from 2020-2023 joins us. We’re in the state capital of Harrisburg, PA.

We discuss America’s beginnings in real estate and banking from around 1800.

He tells us about the health of banks in the wake of recent failures due to higher interest rates.

I ask Richard about full reserve banks vs. fractional lending banks.

Great Britain prohibited colonists from owning land west of the Appalachians. 

The basis of early land wealth were crops grown on the land—wheat, corn, tobacco, indigo, and rice.

Mortgages around 1800 were often 50% LTV and 6% interest rates.

Here in the 2020s, Richard believes that private sector debt is a larger problem than public debt.

Wherever debt growth is most rapid are where the economic cracks exist.

Inflation benefits the Top 10% of the economic strata.

Private debt becomes unsustainable around 225% of GDP. In the US, it’s currently 160%.

You become insolvent when you cannot make interest-only payments. That’s true for you as an individual, or a nation.

If these topics interest you, check out Richard’s new book, “The Paradox of Debt” at


America's beginnings with banking, real estate, and debt [00:00:01]

Discussion on the historical influence of Pennsylvania banking on the formation of US banking, including figures like Robert Morris and Alexander Hamilton.

The impact of autonomous vehicles on real estate [00:02:54]

Exploration of the potential effects of autonomous vehicles on real estate, including reduced need for parking and changes in commuting patterns.

The role of the Secretary of Banking and Securities in Pennsylvania [00:09:20]

Insight into the responsibilities of the Secretary of Banking and Securities in Pennsylvania, including oversight of banks and consumer protections.

The fractional reserve lending system [00:10:44]

Explanation of how banks operate through fractional reserve lending and the possibility of full reserve banks.

The origins of the US banking system and the role of Thomas Willing [00:12:06]

Discussion on the founding of the US banking system and the involvement of Thomas Willing, the first banker in the United States.

The land crisis of 1796-1797 and its impact on Robert Morris [00:14:14]

Exploration of the financial crisis caused by land speculation and how it led to Robert Morris, a prominent figure in credit ratings, ending up in debtor's prison.

The formation of the nation and its intersection with banking [00:21:50]

Discussion on the short-term loans and interest rates during the formation of the United States and the role of debt in the westward expansion.

Private sector debt and its growth [00:25:30]

Exploration of the significant increase in private sector debt since World War II and the focus on the potential issues associated with it.

Debt growth as an indicator of economic crises [00:28:23]

Insight into how rapid debt growth, particularly in the private sector, can serve as a predictor of economic crises and the shortcomings of economic models that exclude debt as a factor.

The paradox of debt [00:31:47]

Debt creates wealth, using leverage and appreciation to generate wealth.

The end game of private debt [00:33:29]

When the requirement to service debt slows the economy down to near zero.

Inflation profiting with real estate [00:37:42]

Real estate is not just an inflation hedging vehicle, but an inflation profiting vehicle due to fixed interest rate debt and rising rents.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Richard Vague’s new book:

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE’s Investment Coach, start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

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Complete episode transcript:


Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. I'm sitting down in Pennsylvania with the governor's appointed state secretary of banking and securities. What were America's beginnings with banking, real estate and debt? Learn how this affects you as an investor today. And what does America's day of debt reckoning look like today on Get Rich Education?


Speaker 2 (00:00:28) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:00:44) - Welcome from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, to Harrisonburg, Virginia, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold and you're listening to Get Rich. Education has been the Keystone state of Pennsylvania this week. In just a few minutes, you'll hear my sit down with secretary of banking and Securities for this great state of Pennsylvania from 2020 to 2023. The rather distinguished guest also sits on the Ivy League University of Pennsylvania's Board of Trustees. And before we're done, I'll be sure he understands at least one core principle here and get his opinion on that. Yeah, I visited seven US states so far here in the past month and I'll continue to visit so much of the United States.


Speaker 1 (00:01:28) - In fact, I might have done more driving this past month than at any time in my life. Now. Some people are really car people. We have this kind of car culture in the United States for some evidence that younger people aren't as interested in that is older people. I mean, some people, they get really excited about new car features or new dashboard interfaces or hybrids or EVs and charging stations. You know, none of that is really that interesting to me. However, you know, the one new car feature that I actually really care about and I'm waiting to go more mainstream. Any idea the one game changing car feature that I really can't wait to get here because it's really going to improve your quality of life. And mine and I talked about this way back in Get Rich Education Episode 13 in the year 2015 is something that is still expected to have substantial ramifications for real estate, and that feature is autonomous vehicles, also known as driverless cars. I mean, as much of the world that's automated these days and digitize, it feels like something is out of whack to have all of this technology that you have in your car today.


Speaker 1 (00:02:54) - Yet even if you're on cruise control out on Interstate 80, like I have been a lot lately, you've mostly got to keep your eyes glued to the car bumper in front of you. Yes. And the car that reliably drives itself. That's the new feature that I really want. I mean, imagine for you to be able to get some sleep or scroll your phone or I know that it sounds funny, even exercise while your car drives itself. And of course this still pretends to have a real impact on real estate. Cars will really need to be owned. It's just the subscription service that you order. A car comes to pick you up and then it drops you off where you need to go. So these cars just continue to stay in motion out there. You don't need a garage so much. And this means that cities won't need nearly as much parking. So parking lots are less important, parking garages are less important. And since you can be more productive while you're a passenger in the car drives itself, well, therefore, those neighborhoods that are say no one hour outside of the center or metro area, well, those areas won't have as much of a price discount because autonomous cars lower your time expense in commuting.


Speaker 1 (00:04:16) - But autonomous car adoption has been slower to develop than a lot of people, including me, expected. I mean, there have been a lot of experiments, But see, what happens is an experimental autonomous car crash that just makes more news than a human created car crash. And that has really slowed adoption. So yeah, I'm not so into cars. The only feature that's on the horizon that really gets me interested is winning back some of my time with autonomous cars. Hey, we have a ton of great podcast episodes lined up here at some of the most brilliant minds in the real estate and money world. Continue to join me coming up soon. Here on the show is the return of a really dynamic guest. He goes by the nickname the mad scientist of multifamily in the industry. Some call the amount of multifamily, mobile home parks self in other commercial real estate investors that have these floating interest rates, the amount of those people, it's almost insane. Higher rates are going to bring those deals down and investors will keep losing money in those deals.


Speaker 1 (00:05:27) - That's what the mad scientist of multifamily and I are going to focus on them. Yes, these people that learn how to perhaps do syndications through TikTok videos, they are losing their deals. Isn't that really is too bad because that reputation seriously that. The good operator, so we're going to sort that out for you. Then on a later episode here, one of the sharpest economic minds in the entire world joins us to discuss why the recession didn't happen as soon as he and a lot of others thought and what that means for the future of stocks and real estate and commodity prices. All of that is in the near future here on the show. But today I'm visiting my home state of Pennsylvania, where I've lived most of my life. It is the fifth most populous state, despite not being that large by area and despite the fact there are still a ton of rural areas in Pennsylvania, and of the five biggest states, Pennsylvania may very well have the deepest history. So we'll dig into some real history today.


Speaker 1 (00:06:31) - Pennsylvania banking was influential on the formation of United States banking, including that of Robert Morris. He's a pretty well known name, but he was succeeded by a better no name. Right after Robert Morse, we had Alexander Hamilton in that banking role. But yeah, Pennsylvania Robert Morris, he is known as the very financier of the American Revolutionary War. As we're about to discuss the nation's beginnings, America's formative years in land and real estate hundreds of years ago. Look, if a hundred years ago, a colonist or an early American, if he or she said this, I'm going to buy a piece of property and develop it. Okay. What do you think that meant when they said that today? If you said, I'm going to buy a piece of property and develop it, well, most people would think that you're going to build a housing development. But back then it probably meant that you were going to clear your land of trees and planted for agriculture and you're going to grow wheat or corn or tobacco.


Speaker 1 (00:07:37) - That was the discussion you were having then. What crop are you developing on your real estate? It sure wasn't. Are you going to develop apartments or condos or single family homes? That's how it might sound today. In fact, the 1790 census that shows that roughly 90% of the American population was employed in agriculture. 90%. So your real estate income was largely derived on your crop yield, which you might use to pay your debt on your land. Let's start this interview that I expect to be wide ranging as we'll take it from yesteryear up to the present day. This week's guest has served as secretary of banking and securities for the great state of Pennsylvania from 2020 to 2023. It is a cabinet level agency here in the state capital of Harrisburg. He was appointed to that position by Pennsylvania Governor Tom Wolf today. He is managing partner of Gabriel Investments as well based in Philadelphia. And today he's the author of an interesting new book. It's titled The Paradox of Debt A New Path to Prosperity Without Crisis. Welcome to Richard Vague.


Speaker 3 (00:08:53) - Thank you so much for having me.


Speaker 1 (00:08:55) - It's good to have you. For those of you listening in, the audio only vague is spelled vague. You and Richard, as Pennsylvania's secretary of banking and Securities, I know that you have various deputy secretaries that assist you. Tell me. I'm going to venture to guess that that role includes acts like the oversight of banks and various consumer protections. Are they important parts of that role?


Speaker 3 (00:09:20) - Without question. The fundamental job is looking to the safety and soundness of the banks chartered here in Pennsylvania to make sure they don't fail. And we all saw the importance of that recently. Silicon Valley bank failed in California. And I think if we'd had the caliber of examiners out in California that the folks here in Pennsylvania or that might not have happened.


Speaker 1 (00:09:44) - That's a nice compliment to those that have that oversight here in state, Richard. It sure has been interesting with interest rates actually not being historically high, but at the rate that they change and the rate that they spiked, making some things break everything else to tell us about that role with the oversight that you had of banks and consumer protections in Pennsylvania and really what everyday depositors are concerned with.


Speaker 3 (00:10:10) - Everyday depositors are concerned with getting the highest yield they can. Sure. And certainly they've been rewarded more lately than they have been over the last, let's say, ten years prior to that. But they also should be concerned about the safety and soundness of the bank they deposit with. And I think a lot of folks forgot that lesson. You know, a few years passed from a crisis and folks aren't worried about whether their bank's going to be around so much anymore. I'm really pleased to report the banks here in Pennsylvania are in really good shape.


Speaker 1 (00:10:44) - Richard, I don't even think that everyday depositors understand the fractional reserve lending institution system, which is really how most banks operate, and that is when a depositor gives the bank money or the money goes ahead and lends that out, that difference, that spread being their arbitrage, which is how they stay in business. I've got a rather interesting question, perhaps are full oil reserve banks feasible as the norm? And what I'm talking about there is banks that can't lend depositors money out and instead that bank needs to profit by charging fees to depositors.


Speaker 1 (00:11:23) - Now, I know everyone likes to get something for free, but would that be a more responsible system? Are full reserve banks feasible at all?


Speaker 3 (00:11:31) - If you did that. You know, that's something I've studied quite a bit, and that was a very active question, by the way. Yeah. In the founding of our banking system here in Pennsylvania in 1781, it's a question that's been around forever. Any economy needs to have money created in order to grow, and the banking system is what does that now. But if you banned that in the banking system, it would just have to happen somewhere else.


Speaker 1 (00:11:58) - Were there any prominent names that were involved with the setup of banking in Pennsylvania?


Speaker 3 (00:12:06) - The name that you hear the most is the guy named Robert Morris, who was the head of it was in effect, the secretary of the Treasury during the Revolutionary War. But his senior partner was the original banker in the United States, and his name was Thomas Willing in history has more or less forgotten him. And that's, by the way, the subject of my next book.


Speaker 3 (00:12:30) - I'm in the Middle of writing a biography of the origins of the US banking system and our first banker, Thomas Wells.


Speaker 1 (00:12:38) - There is a Robert Morris University in Pennsylvania, of course, and we're talking about history here, Richard. And I know that you have an excellent sense of history about the nation's beginnings in land and in real estate. Can you speak to that?


Speaker 3 (00:12:55) - The United States was all about land from the very beginning. You had massive land grants like to William Penn to found the state in the first place. But almost immediately after the founding of the country, you know, one of the reasons we had the American Revolution is because Great Britain prohibited colonists for owning land west of the Appalachian Mountains. And that was very frustrating to people like George Washington and others who had surveyed really lush pieces of land in the Ohio Valley. Immediately after the success of the revolution, the wealthy investors in America began buying millions and millions of acres towards the west, in the Ohio Valley, in Kentucky, in New York, in western Pennsylvania and the like, and got into trouble and brought the first financial crisis in US history, the land crisis of 1796 and 1797, because they were buying all that land on credit, either from the landholder, the private landholder or the the state or commonwealth that the land was in.


Speaker 3 (00:14:14) - They bought this under the presumption that the value of real estate would always go up and of course it just didn't go up fast enough. And Robert Morris to speak of someone actually ended up in debtor's prison because he overextended himself, which is somewhat ironic since he's something of a icon for credit ratings and credit prudence. And yet he was very much of a wild speculator and ended up in prison destitute.


Speaker 1 (00:14:45) - This is really interesting. Okay. And nefarious character early on in America's private real estate development, when the Appalachian mountain range in the late 1700s was deemed as the frontier to a lot of people.


Speaker 3 (00:14:59) - Absolutely. Everybody was looking west of there for the big games and the big opportunities.


Speaker 1 (00:15:06) - I mean, this is part of Manifest Destiny and the American Dream. So can you tell us more about a lot of that land in the early days west of the Appalachian Mountains? How much did the government claim is theirs and sell to private landowners on credit? And then how much were private landowners taking and were they allowed to make land claims and then sell it to someone else? Or tell us more about those early beginnings of that real estate setup?


Speaker 3 (00:15:34) - Well, that's exactly right.


Speaker 3 (00:15:35) - Most of that land was owned by the colonies, which in 1776 became states. The states own that land. The states all incurred massive debts in prosecuting the revolution itself. So by the time you get to 1783, 1787 states are deeply in debt and bondholders of state debt are not getting paid interest. And one way to alleviate that crisis was to sell land and selling it an acre here, an acre. There wasn't going to do you any good. So the states were selling land of 100,000 acre parcel a year, a million acre parcel there. Now, the guys that bought that, at first they were thinking, we'll do it, we'll develop towns, will lay out the towns, will survey them, will sell them, will attract settlers into this realm, will sell it plot buy plot to these settlers. But it was pretty clear that was a pretty slow way to make your money back. So they started looking to the wealthy in Europe and started sending brochures and agents to Europe to in essence, be able to flip their land in Early on, they were very successful at that.


Speaker 3 (00:16:54) - Guys like William Bingham, who was the richest man in America, and Robert Morris, who was one of the richest, would make, you know, 100,000 here and 100,000 there, which is tantamount to making tens of millions. Now that ended. They started doing bigger speculations. There weren't the settlers to buy it. The Europeans got a little bit smarter. You had a major national financial crisis, including, by the way, it wasn't just those Western lands. One of the biggest parts of the financial calamity was in the new town of Washington, DC, where they were moving the government, and people came in, including Robert Morris, thinking it's the seat of government where this is going to be a boomtown. And a lot of folks got into deep trouble speculating on plots in Washington DC.


Speaker 1 (00:17:42) - And if you're the listener, think that this sounds rather unorganized and free wheeling. Of course, we just need to think back a little bit earlier as to what happened when we as colonists went ahead and wrested the land away from the natives as well, of course.


Speaker 1 (00:17:57) - But yeah, Richard, you talked about some of the draw and the appeal to some of the land around Washington, D.C. there along the Potomac River. But just generally overall, in a lot of cases, this new American government, who were the land sellers trying to attract or were they trying to attract them to do, for example, was it to only and to set up a farm for agriculture or was it for trapping or what attracted people to this new land grab, if you will?


Speaker 3 (00:18:24) - The basis of wealth early on in the United States was the crops that we grew. And that obviously, first and foremost was wheat and the biggest supplier of wheat, not just in the United States, but to Europe was Pennsylvania. That's why Philadelphia became the largest city in the United States. Then just south of US and Maryland and Virginia. You had tobacco, which was our number one crop, but it was our number one export. South of that, you had indigo and rice. The further north you got, there really wasn't a lot of arable land.


Speaker 3 (00:19:03) - And that's why, you know, places like Massachusetts had to turn the manufacturing so heavily. It was really that. And fishing for cod were the only thing they could do. So, yeah, absolutely. We were a breadbasket for not just the country, but the world almost from the beginning.


Speaker 1 (00:19:21) - You talk early on about the extension of credit and how that enabled settlers to go ahead and own some of this new land? Is this sort of the early formation of long term mortgages? When did that.


Speaker 4 (00:19:35) - Occur?


Speaker 3 (00:19:36) - Well, absolutely. You know, really from well before independence. One of the problems you had is that there wasn't enough currency to really facilitate economic growth. So they began issuing paper currency in various forms. And a lot of these were very successful. This was done at the state level. And what they would do is they would create land banks. And so you would go in and take your land as a farmer. You would take it to the land bank and you could get currency up to half the value of your land and you'd pay interest on it.


Speaker 3 (00:20:14) - So it was really was a de facto mortgage, a.


Speaker 1 (00:20:18) - 50% mortgage, a.


Speaker 3 (00:20:19) - 50% mortgage, and you could spend that currency. They were well managed early on. Most of these didn't work, failed. And the first real commercial bank was Thomas Williams Bank in 1781 and Philadelphia.


Speaker 1 (00:20:35) - What were interest rates like at this time in these formative years of our nation.


Speaker 3 (00:20:40) - For bigger transactions, the range was really just 5 to 6%. It might get down to four, might get up to seven. Interest rates in the U.K. were closer to five and us, they were closer to six. There were breakdowns by a slice of an interest rate, so there wasn't an interest of 5.1% or 5.2%. And for high risk transactions, you could easily get into the same interest rate realm that some of our usurious lenders do today. Yeah, you see situations where folks in dire straits would borrow for an interest rate of 5% a month. A lot of loans in those days were very, very short term. There were the land loans that were long term.


Speaker 3 (00:21:28) - Most commercial banks made loans for 30 to 90 days, and they really were meant to bridge the period from when you, as a merchandiser bought your wholesale supplies to when you sold them as goods to the folks in your town. You could roll those loans over. But they were very short term back in those days.


Speaker 1 (00:21:50) - That is interesting. Those are really short term loans. And this is pretty parallel with what I've read around that time, that interest rates seem to be about 5%, something like that. We're talking about the formation of this nation, its beginnings in land, in real estate, and how that intersects with banking and the mortgage market and really part of the manifest destiny in the westward expansion of the United States. Yes, we are talking about a popular four letter word debt, and that word debt has only become more popular in America with consumerism here in past decades. So when Richard and I come back, we're going to talk more about debt today in the United States. In his new book, The Paradox of Debt, you can get that at Paradox of Debt.


Speaker 1 (00:22:35) - More we come back with Richard. I'm your host Keith Wayne hold you're listening to Get Rich Education. Jerry listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 42056. They have provided our tribe with more loans than anyone there truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plex. So start your prequalification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge personally, though even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group. You know, I'll just tell you for the most passive part of my real estate investing personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in. Returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited. For some of them. It's all backed by real estate. And I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2, jobs, income.


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Speaker 4 (00:24:22) - Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Reinhold and Don't Quit Your Day Dream.


Speaker 1 (00:24:37) - Welcome back to Get Rich Education. We're talking with the guest that served as the secretary of banking and securities for the great state of Pennsylvania since 2020. Today, he's the author of an interesting new book. It's titled The Paradox of Debt A New Path to Prosperity Without Crisis. His name is Richard Vig. He's joining us from here in Pennsylvania, where we are together today. And Richard, I know that you have a lot of commentary about modern debt and what we can do about today's debt and how debt really seems to have expanded a lot since Nixon pegged us from the last vestige of the gold standard back in 1971.


Speaker 1 (00:25:14) - I guess really the preeminent question, Richard, is should debt be a concern? We read all these stories about unrelatable numbers, about how the United States has $33 trillion of stated public debt. What's problematic?


Speaker 3 (00:25:30) - There's a lot more private sector debt than public debt. And I think private sector debt is the area where we need to focus and where our concern needs to be. Private debt has increased since World War two from 35% of GDP to 160% of GDP. Wow. So it's almost quintupled. There's about $41 trillion worth of private sector debt. That's a bigger number than the government debt number, and that's globally as well. There's about a $150 trillion worth of private sector debt and only about $90 trillion worth of government debt.


Speaker 1 (00:26:09) - And what is private sector debt? Are we talking about automobile loans, credit card loans, student loans?


Speaker 3 (00:26:14) - It's roughly divided between business and household debt. So if we've got 40 trillion in debt, it's about 20 business and 20 households. And within both of those categories, the single biggest type of debt is real estate by far.


Speaker 3 (00:26:31) - So within household debt, it's about 20 trillion. Almost 14 trillion of that is mortgage debt. On the business side, it's about 20 trillion. About 6 trillion of that is commercial real estate debt. So there's never been a time where real estate debt, household and commercial has not been really kind of the driving force of the economy.


Speaker 1 (00:26:57) - You got public sector debt and you got private sector debt. And, you know, it's kind of funny, Richard, if someone asked me what the difference between those two is, there's a few different directions you could go. What I like to tell some people is, well, the government can just print dollars, okay? Everyday consumers in businesses, they don't have that handle. So the government can print dollars and they can call that whatever name they want to quantitative easing. Maybe they want to call it currency creation. But over here, if the individual tries to do something like that, it's called counterfeiting. So, yes, it can be more problematic. Individuals cannot print their own dollars at home.


Speaker 3 (00:27:32) - That's exactly right. And that's why private debt is the area that we should focus more on. If you think about the great financial crisis of 2008, mortgage debt in 2002 was $5 trillion. By 2007, it was $10 trillion. It had doubled in less than five years. And we all now know that was millions of mortgages that it should never have been made. That was mortgages where the individuals had no income, no job, no assets. Those were homes that stood empty for years. And in many cases, they had to get torn down.


Speaker 4 (00:28:10) - Yeah.


Speaker 3 (00:28:11) - If you want to look out for trouble, the place to look is in the private sector debt. And the way to detect it is wherever it's growing very, very rapidly, that's where you're going to have a problem.


Speaker 1 (00:28:23) - So that's therefore a way to help predict economic crises. It's debt growth or I guess you could really call it credit growth as well, right? I mean, both credit and debt are basically the same terms for the different side of a transaction wherever the growth in that is most rapid is really where the economic cracks are.


Speaker 3 (00:28:43) - That's exactly right. And the fact that the Federal Reserve did not spot that in 2005 and six is one of the great stories of our time. They build economic models that don't even include debt as a factor whatsoever. Everybody finds that very surprising. It's called the DSG model, and it models the future of the economy without taking into consideration anything about debt.


Speaker 1 (00:29:12) - Why is that excluded? Mean, I'm a bit taken aback by what you just told me. Think you can tell.


Speaker 3 (00:29:18) - It's the fact. And economists got so theoretical going back a couple of decades that they started separating out financial economy from what they call the real economy. And they just stopped studying the financial economy as kind of a secondary matter to the real economy. The real economy would be, you know, the wheat and the automobile that gets manufactured and so forth and so on. My argument is those two things are inseparable. You shouldn't and cannot consider one without the other. And that's a huge blind spot in our Orthodox economics profession.


Speaker 1 (00:30:01) - Tell us more about how what we've discussed ties in to the thesis of your book.


Speaker 1 (00:30:06) - Richard The Paradox of Debt. What's the paradox?


Speaker 3 (00:30:10) - Paradox is that debt creates wealth, but it also creates calamity. So, for example, in the pandemic, 20 through 22, government debt alone increased by $8 trillion. Household wealth increased by $30 trillion. So the money the government spends does not disappear. It actually goes into the checking accounts of households. So at the end of that three year period, households had 8 trillion more in deposits in their checking accounts. And the flood of new money had pushed up real estate and stock values. So cash in bank accounts increased by 8 trillion, and the value of real estate and stocks increased by 20 something trillion. So households were $30 trillion better off at the end of 22 than they had been at the end of 19. However, most of that, like 80% of that benefit, went to the top 10% of the population. And that's for the very simple reason that most assets, most stocks and real estate are held by the top 10%, like 65% of all the stock in real estate in the country is held by the top 10%.


Speaker 3 (00:31:32) - The bottom 60%, six 0%, only hold about 14% of the stocks in real estate. So for real estate and stock values go up, it's the most well-to-do that get the benefit.


Speaker 1 (00:31:47) - That's right. And it's really the listeners on this show that we want to help take from poor or middle class and help them understand something you said in just a couple of minutes ago, that debt creates wealth, which is a paradox to many. The title of your book is The Paradox of Debt. So here what we often do is get 75 to 80% loans on an income producing property where the rent income meets or exceeds all of the expenses. And this is creating wealth. How is that wealth generated debt? A 75 to 80% loan debt is leverage and leverage appreciation actually makes compound interest look pretty slow. So a very concrete example in a sense of the paradox of debt that we're using right here at Get Rich education. Richard.


Speaker 3 (00:32:31) - You have described something that is not just true about real estate transactions, but it's true about the economy as a whole.


Speaker 3 (00:32:40) - That's the essential analysis. Yeah. And to put some macro numbers on it, in 1980, total debt in the economy, government plus household was 125% of GDP. Today it's 260% of GDP. Yeah. Yeah. And that exact same time span, household wealth, net of debt went from 352% of GDP to 600% of GDP. Debt created. Well.


Speaker 1 (00:33:12) - Yes, those are some astonishing figures. I guess as we're winding down here, Richard, one might wonder, well, where is the ceiling? When is the day of reckoning? When do we reach a calamity? How do we know that there's too much private debt and how does that actually look?


Speaker 3 (00:33:29) - We have a chapter on that very subject in the book there. It's pretty easy to see that there's an end game on the private sector side. And right now we're at about 160% of GDP. We think that that's probably somewhere in the 225% of GDP range here in the United States when there's so much debt that the requirement to service that debt slows the economy down to near zero.


Speaker 3 (00:34:00) - On the government debt, for the very reason you suggested that limitation doesn't really exist, the government could refinance its debt in perpetuity. As we said a moment ago, that ends up in the bank accounts of households anyway. So the thing I look to and I'm concerned about is private debt. Even though if you go flip on the cable news channels, you would think the world's about to end because of our government debt.


Speaker 1 (00:34:26) - Now tell me, am I oversimplifying things here, at least with private debtors, everyday Americans, when an interest only payment on your debt exceeds your ability to service it each month? Is that the path to bankruptcy right there?


Speaker 3 (00:34:42) - You got it. And whatever you say about an individual, you can say about the economy as a whole, because GDP is really just the sum of the individuals and businesses in the US. So if all the individuals and businesses are approaching this, the circumstance you just described, economy is not going to grow well there.


Speaker 1 (00:35:03) - Any last things that you would like to tell us about you very well received book because again, it's called The Paradox of Debt in the subtitle is A New Path to Prosperity Without Crisis.


Speaker 3 (00:35:14) - We cover the same material for the other six largest countries in the world. So if you read the book, you're not just going to learn about the US, you're going to learn about China, Japan, Germany, France, England and India. And I think it gives you the kind of fulsome grounding you need to better understand the news stories that we get such a barrage of every day.


Speaker 1 (00:35:38) - That's right. We need a frame of reference and putting our own more domestic debt into perspective here. Well, Richard, if someone wants to get a hold of the book, remind them of how they can best do that.


Speaker 3 (00:35:49) - Thank you so much. Go to Paradox of Debt or go to Amazon or Barnes and Noble and just search for that and it'll be right there.


Speaker 1 (00:35:58) - Oh, Richard, you've helped expand our debt mindset somewhat here on the show today. It's been great having you here.


Speaker 3 (00:36:05) - It's been such a privilege. Thank you for having me.


Speaker 1 (00:36:14) - A lot of interesting history with Richard Vig today, this great state of Pennsylvania's secretary of banking and securities.


Speaker 1 (00:36:20) - One concept that really hasn't changed throughout history that we discussed there is that inflation mostly benefits those at the top. Again, check out Richard's book at Paradox of But yes, real estate, it is still known as an inflation hedge. You still hear that term thrown around a lot but I really try to use a different term not hedge I don't like hedge. Okay. In the investing world, the word hedge means something that you do to offset risks. I don't like that word used with real estate. So therefore, the word hedge that really correlates with a defensive strategy. I mean, hedge, that's probably a better term for gold. Gold is a hedge against inflation. That makes sense to me. But where I draw the distinction is that investment property bought with a loan is not merely a hedge against inflation. That's why when I coined the real estate pays five ways back in 2015, the fifth benefit, it's not called inflation hedging. It is called inflation profiting. Now, if you're only looking at the overall capital price of your real estate, even your own home, well then it's dollar denominated price alone.


Speaker 1 (00:37:42) - Well, that could be a hedge against inflation. But that's only the beginning, because when you get the fixed interest rate debt with it, now you're profiting because inflation debases your debt while the tenant makes all of the payments. And then as your rents rise with inflation, the reason that your monthly profit, your cash flow rises faster than inflation is, of course, due to the fact that your principal and interest payment stays fixed and feels really low over time. That's the inflation Triple Crown that I just described right there. And that's why when you buy investment property, REIT real estate is not just an inflation hedging vehicle, it is an inflation profiting vehicle. And today real estate isn't just scarce. It is still about 60% below the needed supply. And then amidst that, within that, single family homes are even more scarce. And then entry level homes that make the best rentals are even more scarce than that. But here on the show, we connect you with those builders and providers that are making the most in-demand properties available.


Speaker 1 (00:38:59) - Oftentimes these single family homes that are entry level. So therefore, in this environment, if you can get a hold of those, you are going to own a scarce asset that everyone wants. That's what we help you do here. But mortgage rates have been a hindrance for adding investments. But with our referral network here, we have largely solved that problem for you. We have providers that offer 5.75% mortgage rates because they buy down your rate for you less. We're going to show you've heard how a Marketplace income property provider is offering an astounding 4.75% mortgage rate. And although it has some shortcomings, there are also 2.99% seller financed investment properties that you can tie up. Yes. Today. So profit from a scarce asset that everyone wants and benefits from higher inflation. And today it really tilts toward you, often giving more consideration to new build properties because builders, they're the ones that are aggressively buying down your rate for you today. And new builds also have lower insurance rates last year. To make it easier for you, we started our free investment coaching service so contact your investment coach to help get you started.


Speaker 1 (00:40:19) - Some of our more popular markets lately are in Ohio, Indiana, Missouri, Tennessee, Alabama, Florida, Georgia in summer. So whether you like to connect with the provider on your own, if that's what you like to do or if you don't, you can then just utilize our service free of charge investment coaching. You can do all of that at thanks to Richard Vague today until next week I'm your host Keith Weinhold. Don't quit your daydream!


Speaker 5 (00:40:57) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 1 (00:41:25) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.



Direct download: GREepisode472_.mp3
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At age 20, you’re actually happy to trade your time for money. 

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Instead, by age 50, corporate ladder-climbers often realize that their ladder was leaning up against the wrong building.

Most people play the wrong financial game all their life. You want to get financially-free first. You can get debt-free later.

“The Debt Decamillionaire” concept is revisited.

Learn how to get 4.75% mortgage rates for Florida income property with what is known as a “builder-forward commitment”. Start here

What about hotly spiking Florida property insurance? We discuss how premiums have been kept in-check with post-2004 built property and more.

Expect $3,200 rents on a new-build $474K duplex with 4.75% mortgage rates in Southwest Florida.

SFRs are available too. Start here

There’s free PM for the first year too. 

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

4.75% mortgages in Florida:

If you’d like help with one of 

GRE’s Investment Coaches (free), start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

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Monologue transcript:


Welcome to GRE! I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. Financially, you need to play a game worth winning. It’s not about being debt-free. Instead, I discuss how at each age-when you’re 20, 30, 40, 50 and beyond, it’s about being financially-free.


Then, in an era where mortgage rates are 7 to 8%, we go straight to the source, in Florida, on how to get 4¾% mortgage rates on new-build property. Today, on Get Rich Education.



Welcome to GRE! From Framingham, MA to Dillingham, AK and across 188 nations worldwide, yeah, you & I are back together here on Episode 471 of Get Rich Education. I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. 


You’ve got to play a game worth winning - with your personal finances. Most play the wrong game. 


Now, you’re already initiated on this. Debt-free just means that you don’t owe anyone anything. FF means that you’ve got enough passive income that you can do what you want to do, when you want to do it. FF is the flex.


Now, when you’re around age 20 - you might be new to full-time employment. 

And you know what, it actually can feel kinda good when you’re in your early twenties are you’re being paid what feels like a respectable income for the first time in your life.


Now, ten years go by, and by the time that you’re 30, you know, I think that a lot of work-a-day job types - you might tell yourself, ya know, making money is alright at this point. But I really don't want to do this for the rest of life.


Maybe around age 30, you pursue alternative avenues of more RESIDUAL income. 


But some people just keep plowing ahead hating big chunks of their life and devoting energy at a full-time job, because somehow, you feel like you HAVE to.


Others, though it’s a minority, it’s you. Because, instead, maybe around age 30, you tell yourself that you’d rather start building things that pay you to own them.


The mindset supersedes the grindset.


And by age 40, you’re out. You’re out of that soul-sucking job and you’re living that life that you’ve always dreamed of living already. It sure could happen earlier.


And by age 50, you’re so glad that you chose the financially free financial track in life - rather than the debt-free track.


Back on the slow, scarce debt-free track - the people that mistakenly think that debt-free is the game worth winning - they’re still losing their zero-sum, non-replenishable resource of time in their 30s and 40s and 50s and 60s and maybe 70s. 


Perhaps somewhere around 30, abundantly-minded, aware people like you developed your divergent, not-running-with-the-herd FF path instead. 


You believe that money is an abundant resource - because you start having it all around you. 


You built a financial windfall for yourself with simultaneous RE cash flow, leverage, and arbitrage while you’re young enough to enjoy it.


Instead, the “work at a soulless job” type tries to get debt-free, climb the corporate ladder, and believes that money is a scarce resource (which is why they think they need to be debt-free). They defer their life and get eaten up by inflation and zero passive cash flow.


THAT person, by age 50, is asking themselves where all the time went. It went to a job that you’re not passionate about - and you can’t change history. All those time chapters of your life… are… gone. 


And you begin to realize that the corporate ladder that you climbed… was leaning up against the wronggggg building for decades.


Those are two paths of those in their productive working years - the “there’s never enough” debt-free world vs. the “money is abundant” FF world.


If you retire debt, like paying off a mortgage early, all those dollars are gone, when they could have been leveraging, say, 5 properties at once.


Now, if you’re late to realize this, like you didn’t have the FF epiphany by 30 or whatever. It’s not too late.


You’ll remember that in recent months here, we had two GRE listeners come on the show for two different episodes - Scott Saunders and then Shawn Finnegan. 


Shawn - you might remember that was the inventor of a home gym system - he didn’t hear this show & start until he was 52 and he’s gotten to his first $2,000 of passive cash flow fairly quickly. 


FF beats DF. And FF is the game worth winning.


Retiring debt early means your dollars can't be employed in true wealth-building activities. 


Now, look. You might call me old-fashioned on this. But I like the integrity of doing what I say that I’m going to do, following through, and following up.


We check back at the end of the year to see how GRE’s housing price appreciation forecast from the previous year actually went.


Back in January, we had the return of an agricultural RE principal where the cash flows DIDN’T hit what were targeteded, so we followed through and discussed why THAT happened.


And now…


You might remember that a few years ago, here on the show, I introduced you to the novel concept of being the Debt Decamillionaire. 


That means that you’ve achieved $10M in debt - which doesn’t sound like an achievement to most people. That’s the Debt Decamillionaire. I recommended this as a desirable path for you - though many could deem it iconoclastic or even heretical. 


If the only thing that I knew about you is that, say, you had $10M in real estate debt, I’d know that the chances are good that you’re a financial WINNER. 


Yep, it’s actually unlikely that $10M in debt would make you a loser.


Not only would you have to be creditworthy to even get $10M of debt… just think about if you would have tied up that much debt, say, five years ago.


Well, how has it actually gone for the person with $10M in income property debt over the past 5 years? 


We've had perhaps… 25% cumulative inflation since then - with higher wages, prices, salaries, and rents.


So then, your $10M debt is whittled down to just $7½M of inflation-adjusted debt. 


So inflation passively beat down your debt for you, plus your tenants would have paid it down to somewhere below $7M.


So now, you’d be $3M wealthier, just off the debt debasement alone. 


Meanwhile, over on the asset side, your property value that you borrowed against might have gone from something like $12M up to $18M… and all


While it created ALL that leverage plus some cash flow and tax benefit for you at the same time.


If you only managed to tie up $1M in investment property debt, then just take 10% of all those numbers. 


And pat yourself on the back for being a debt MILLIONAIRE. Ha! Not Debt Decamillionaire.


Instead, high inflation made the debt-free approach hurt - really sting over the last five years. The opportunity lost!


DF is playing small ball, saying money is a scarce resource, and it even correlates more with people being addicted to a paycheck. 


There’s a benefit to a paycheck. But is the trade-off worse? Paycheck dependence is like you being addicted to a TIME thief. 


That is, unless you get an unusually extraordinary amount of meaning from your work. In that case, great. 


Now, a high interest rate environment could narrow the gap between how much better FF is than DF. But we’re not in one of those. We’re in a historically average interest rate environment.


But in just a few minutes here, we’ll bring in a prominent American homebuilder of BTR homes that’ll tell you how to still get mortgage rates as low as 4¾%. 


In fact, the time in the market cycle is really right for talking about this. You’ll remember that last month, Housing Intelligence Analyst Rick Sharga & I discussed why today’s market is a good opportunity for residential REIs.


It’s a bad market for primary residence HBs

It’s a bad market for flippers


It’s a bad market for real estate agents - with lower sales volume.


And it’s a… decent market for many homebuilders. 


I am in Chicago today. 


Next week, I’ll be in - my home state - the Keystone State of PA. I’ll Sit down with Richard Vague, the Secretary of Banking and Securities for the great Commonwealth of PA from 2020 to 2023, there in the state capital, Harrisburg. 


It is a cabinet-level agency.


He was appointed to that position by PA’s Governor.

He also sits on the Ivy League University of Pennsylvania Board of Trustees.


I’ll be sure he understands some core GRE principles here and get HIS opinion on those. That should be a really interesting episode next week. I don’t know what kind of turn that’s going to take.


To review what you’re learned so far, I think you already know that FF beats DF. 


Rushing to be debt-free exacts an opportunity cost on you. It postpones what you really want - Financial Freedom… and once you get FF, if you do desire to be debt-free then, hey, great! 


Let’s discuss how to get lower Florida insurance premiums, 4¾% mortgage rates and a free year of property management. 


A lot of our listeners have acted on this. And I don’t want you to miss out because I don’t know how long it can last.



Usually, you see fewer investors that want to exchange their properties in a higher interest rate environment, because you’re trading in a lower rate property for a higher rate property. 


But here, 1031s look more attractive because we’ve bent that back with rates down to 4.75% + lower insurance premiums on post-2004-built Florida property plus 1 year of free PM.


So many of you have been acting here on this - either by yourself at GRE Marketplace, or working through one of our free Investment Coaches. So, if it can help you, don’t miss out. This won’t last forever.


You can get started at:


Until next week, I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. DQYD!

Direct download: GREepisode471_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

Crime, homelessness, poverty, immorality, theft and urban decay. What are US cities turning into?

NYC Mayor Eric Adams has said that 100,000 new migrants will destroy his city.

With business and residents moving out of many urban cores, property tax revenues decline. 

San Francisco’s Union Square neighborhood has been especially hard hit. 60,000 people left SF county from 2020 to 2022. There’s homelessness, crime, higher housing costs and more remote work. There are now shuttered storefronts. Nordstrom and Whole Foods closed there.

Vacant office buildings often can’t be turned into residential housing. This accelerates decay and urban stagnation.

Author Doug Casey joins the discussion.

We discuss the “Defund the Police” movement.

The fall of Rome and Babylon are compared.

Learn what other nations think about America today. If America is so bad, why are migrants attracted to it?

We need to be mindful that nations, states, and cities all vary substantially by crime and demographics within them.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Doug Casey’s website:

Doug Casey’s YouTube:

Doug Casey’s Take

If you’d like help with one of 

GRE’s Investment Coaches (free), start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—

text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:


Direct download: GREepisode470_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

Learn how to permanently reduce your tax burden. The greatest tax breaks for real estate investors are revealed.

But first, home prices are permanently elevated because they’re larger and with more amenities than they had in the 1970s. 

Today’s homes have vaulted ceilings, multiple fireplaces, granite countertops and more square footage. I describe.

John Hyre, the Tax Reduction Lawyer, joins us for the first time.

The top federal income tax rate is 37%. Learn where it’s headed next.

On your short-term rentals (like Airbnbs), sometimes you can reduce your taxes by legally stating that it’s a “hotel”.

Your rent income is taxed at less than your day job (W-2) income. Rent income is not burdened with social security and self-employment tax.

Learn exactly how tax depreciation lowers taxable income for real estate investors.

You’ll legally never pay any capital gains tax with a 1031 Exchange. We review how.

Will the 1031 Exchange go away?

John tells us how to get $100K tax-free out of your property—without doing an exchange.


The direction of the marginal income tax rate [00:08:19]

Discussion about the current marginal income tax rate and the potential for changes in the future.

Tax changes under the Trump administration [00:09:22]

Explanation of the Trump tax changes and the potential impact of those changes on real estate investors.

Taxation of rental income [00:10:08]

Explanation of how rental income is taxed differently from regular job income, specifically regarding self-employment and social security taxes.

Opportunity and traps of Airbnb rentals [00:10:25]

Discussion on the potential to convert Airbnb income into losses and the tax implications of Airbnb rentals.

Making an Airbnb an active trade or business [00:11:41]

Exploring the distinction between treating an Airbnb as rental income or hotel income for self-employment purposes.

Accelerating depreciation with cost segregation study [00:14:17]

Explanation of cost segregation study and how it can help real estate investors lower their taxable income by depreciating certain assets more aggressively.

Tax Depreciation and its Benefits [00:21:34]

Explanation of how tax depreciation works in real estate investing and its value in reducing taxable income.

The Basics of 1031 Exchange [00:26:13]

Overview of the 1031 exchange, a tax-deferred exchange that allows real estate investors to swap properties without paying capital gains tax.

The Long-Term Benefits of 1031 Exchange [00:28:37]

Discussion on the strategy of using 1031 exchanges until death to maximize tax deferral and potentially convert it into tax-free gains for heirs.

The 1031 Exchange Trick [00:30:36]

Speaker 3 explains a trick to maximize the benefits of a 1031 exchange by utilizing passive activity losses.

The Pass-Through Deduction [00:33:21]

Speaker 3 discusses the concept of the pass-through deduction and its application to rentals, providing insights on how to maximize the deduction.

Future Tax Policies [00:36:15]

The potential tax policies of Democratic and Republican presidential candidates are discussed, with an emphasis on their stance towards real estate and taxes.

The 1031 tax deferred exchange [00:40:03]

Explanation of the 1031 tax deferred exchange and its potential benefits for real estate investors.

Disclaimer and advice [00:40:36]

Disclaimer about the show not providing specific personal or professional advice, and the need to consult appropriate professionals for individualized advice.

Sponsorship message [00:41:04]

Acknowledgment of the show's sponsor,, as a platform for wealth building.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Learn more about John Hyre:

If you’d like help with one of 

GRE’s Investment Coaches (free), start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

GRE Free Investment Coaching:

Best Financial Education:

Get our wealth-building newsletter free—

text ‘GRE’ to 66866

Our YouTube Channel:

Follow us on Instagram:


Keith’s personal Instagram:



Complete episode transcript:


Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Real estate investors get tax breaks like you'll find absolutely nowhere else in the entire tax code that can help you legally work the tax system like you're a billionaire and actually work your way toward becoming a billionaire. Today on Get Rich Education.


Speaker 2 (00:00:22) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:00:38) - Welcome from Belgrade, Serbia, to Bellingham, Washington, and across 188 nations worldwide with 5.2 million listener downloads. I'm your host Keith Weinhold and this is Get Rich education. Yeah, you're back at that abundant place and you gotta be because the scarcity mentality is abundant in the abundance mentality is scarce so be frugal with your time, not your money. You can afford to be because you live by the mantra that financially free beats debt free. Throughout our nine years of weekly shows here, Waiting in the Wings is just the third ever expert tax guest we've had on the show. The other two are Tom Wheelwright and Kristen Tate.


Speaker 1 (00:01:18) - You meet the third one in a few minutes. Here I am sitting the first half of this month in Denver, Omaha and then Chicago checking out real estate markets and more. Before we talk taxes. All prices have risen this year, just like they do most years, and they expect to stay elevated. I've talked before about all those reasons why demographic and supply demand and all of that, but why else are houses permanently more expensive today than they were decades ago, even when adjusted for inflation in some cases? Well, it's not all the dollars given to people during Covid or anything like that. It's just the fact that houses are bigger and more complicated than they were in the 1970s and 1980s. I mean, they used to build houses that were just 1000 or 1500 square feet. I mean, often it would be like a three bed, one bath house with a one car garage that used to be sort of the suburban staple. Well, today it'll often be four bed, three bath, three car garage with things that didn't exist in yesteryear.


Speaker 1 (00:02:26) - I mean, today you have things like multiple fireplaces and vaulted ceilings and more overall size and more amenities that would have just been considered a luxury home like 50 years ago. So the home quality is better and you also have more strict building codes that leads to things like more insulation or egress windows or different roofs or wiring or Hvac and plumbing in that courts are going to countertops, even in rentals. That was an unthinkable luxury 50 plus years ago. And also today, it's just more expensive to develop land. It takes years to get approvals for drainage and utilities and roads and environmental requirements. And after all that, all those factors that make us real estate more expensive. The US still has some of the most affordable property prices in the entire world. Now those changes that I talked about aren't bad. It just makes real estate more expensive. And a lot of times those changes are actually good. It means we have a higher and better standard of living now and now seemingly everyone from Warren Buffett, with his big investment in home builders to shark tanks, Barbara Corcoran's bullishness, I mean, all these people have made either bullish bets or bullish remarks on real estate, all these prominent figures.


Speaker 1 (00:03:52) - And we are to, in future episodes of the show here, someone who admits that he's a gloomier guest. He and I are going to produce a fascinating episode on the collapse of American cities, what's happening in some of our inner cities, How bad is it and how bad will it get? Yeah, we're talking about the collapse of American cities in that episode. And also in a few weeks, I will be in the Keystone state of Pennsylvania for a different, fascinating episode. That's what I'm going to sit down with. The Honorable Secretary of Banking and Securities for the great state of Pennsylvania. He's in that role from 2020 to 2023. That's a cabinet level agency there in the state capital of Harrisburg. And my guest for that show there, yes, he was appointed to that position by Pennsylvania's governor. And he also sits on the board of trustees for an Ivy League university. That is Penn there in Philadelphia. And I'll be sure that the secretary of banking and securities for Pennsylvania that he understands some core principles here and get his opinion on those.


Speaker 1 (00:04:58) - So, again, that's the secretary of banking and securities for the great state of Pennsylvania appointed by the governor. Coming up here on Gray. Now, when we look down the road into the more distant future here on the show in, well, I guess, 31 weeks on Monday, May 6th, 2024, do you have any idea what that day is? That day is episode 500 of the Get Rich Education podcast, and I'm going to take you on an abundance mindset journey then that I hope you'll never forget for episode 500. That's on May 6th of next year. So many other great episodes are in the works here for the show. The housing market has momentum. I have a lot of great material that I want to share directly with you, and we really have some of the top guests in the industry. And I guess they're attracted here because they know that they'll reach a large, passionate, actionable audience and that's what you are. So if you're new here to the podcast, I invite you come along with me.


Speaker 1 (00:06:01) - I think you'll find it valuable. If you immerse yourself, you'll find it life changing and everything that we do and offer here is free. This show reliably recurs in your life every single week without any exceptions, just like it has since 2014. And we have never replayed an old show. I am here for you. I'm inviting you. Be sure to subscribe or follow in your favorite pod catcher. And the reason that I tell you about the Get Rich Education mobile app is that if you have someone in your life whose life would like to be changed by real estate investing or could be changed by real estate investing but doesn't know about podcasts that way. For iOS and Android, you can just have them grab the Get Rich Education mobile app. We are in Q4 and it is time to think about your taxes before the year ends. Today's expert tax guest is brilliant and understands nuances about the tax code that I sure don't. This centers on the US tax code. But you know what? If you're outside the United States, many nations provide similar incentives to the United States.


Speaker 1 (00:07:08) - Now, I don't know about you, but in my opinion, tax talk, you know, if one isn't careful, it can quickly feel like an abstraction which can make it hard to understand. We are get rich education. I'm here to help you understand things. So what I'd like to do to help aid in your comprehension is jump in and use concrete examples during our interview here. And then after the interview, I'm also going to review what you learned. Hey, today's guest is making his debut. He's a tax reduction professional. He caters real estate investors and small businesses. In fact, he is pretty well known as the tax reduction lawyer. Hey, welcome on to John Hiatt. Thanks for having me.


Speaker 3 (00:07:57) - Glad to be here from Argentina.


Speaker 1 (00:08:00) - Yeah, you're joining me from a most interesting place today, a place with high inflation and tasty steaks and a lot of other things going on in Argentina today. But back here in the United States, where so much of our listenership is, I want to get into the real estate part and how real estate investors can lower their tax burden shortly.


Speaker 1 (00:08:19) - But first of all, just in general, John, every one of us that has an income pays an income tax. Now, Obama had the highest marginal income tax rate of 39.6% under the Trump administration. That was soon lowered from 39.6 down to 37 when the Biden administration came into power. A lot of people felt like that 37% rate was going to be raised back up to 39.6, but it was not, and it's still at 37%. So with that context, can you talk to us more about the direction of the marginal income tax rate?


Speaker 3 (00:08:55) - Gridlock, glorious, wonderful gridlock, when those people in DC are unable to, quote unquote do anything mean? I'm happy in one sense. I get a lot of opportunities to make content when the law changes. But in terms of the good of the country, when very little is changing in DC, yeah, usually I'm a happy camper and right now with the gridlock and they're not agreeing on things, I would say the most that's likely to happen, I don't think marginal tax rates will change.


Speaker 3 (00:09:22) - There is some negotiation on some of the Trump tax changes, which were almost all very positive, are fading out. For example, bonus depreciation is dropping by 20% per year. Right? So the Republicans are trying to keep it at 100%. The Democrats want more spending. That's the polite term. Let's leave it at spending. And so there is some discussion going. We'll see if they can agree or not. But I don't see any massive changes coming given the gridlock.


Speaker 1 (00:09:51) - Now as real estate investors and we think about the income tax, one often wonders, even when someone's been a real estate investor for a little while, John, I don't quite think they understand how the rent income is taxed differently than their daily job income. Can you tell us about that?


Speaker 3 (00:10:08) - Yeah, really important in two contexts. I'm going to give you the straight rentals on straight rentals. The rental income had schedule E instead of schedule C or some other schedule. So like W-2 income, the extent it's tax, there's no self-employment or Social Security.


Speaker 3 (00:10:25) - So that is a positive. Also, with things like depreciation, you have a lot greater opportunity to zero out the income or even convert it into losses. Now, if you manage to convert it into losses, we have a separate struggle which is making those losses useful. In other words, they're not being passive losses which we can have a discussion on. Another up and coming area is short term rentals. I'll just call it Airbnbs generically, even though there are a lot of other systems, it's really important to understand there's opportunity here, but there also traps. Airbnbs can be taxed as rental income or hotel income. And which one do you want? Well, the lawyer answer, of course, is always it depends. Usually we want it taxed as rental income for self-employment purposes. In other words, your Airbnb normally belongs on schedule E, not schedule C, which is good because you avoid self-employment tax. Most CPAs don't understand that. Second, from a passive loss standpoint, in other words, converting these passive bad losses into good losses that might offset your W-2.


Speaker 3 (00:11:36) - You want the Airbnb treated from that standpoint as a hotel.


Speaker 1 (00:11:41) - And when John's using the word hotel, he's using his fingers to make little, quote, signs around the word hotel.


Speaker 3 (00:11:48) - Yes, because hotels are considered not rentals. It's an active trade or business. And the definition is different. So we have the code might take the same word and define it 15 different ways depending on which part of the code you're playing with here. That helps us real brief one your audience, A lot of them have a day job. A lot of them would have a hard time becoming real estate professionals, which would allow them to take passive losses on rentals. Right. Well, for those who happen to be in Airbnbs or even just temporarily want to get into Airbnbs to get a loss, here's a classic strategy for people who have a W-2 job or otherwise have too much work time outside of real estate. They cannot ever be a real estate professional. It's just not going to happen. And again, the impact of that means passive rental losses stay passive.


Speaker 3 (00:12:40) - They. On the return. They don't help you in the present. A way to wake up those losses and make them active is the first year you have a rental for passive loss purposes. Make it an Airbnb and be personally involved with it. So let's talk about that. How do you make it an Airbnb for passive loss purposes? There are a number of ways because I can talk for hours and you don't want that. The most common way to make something into an Airbnb for passive loss purposes is on average rented for seven days or less. If you rent it for seven days or less, it still goes on schedule. E No social security tax. But instead of rental passive loss rules, you deal with the normal ones. What does that mean If you spend 100 hours or more and by the way, you means you and your spouse, if you're filing married, filing jointly, your hours both count so you can split the burden. If your hands on renting the Airbnb, let's say you buy it late in the year so you don't have to run it all year and you spend 100 or more hours on it between the two of you and no other human spends more time than you, then it is considered active.


Speaker 3 (00:13:51) - People will want to rewind and listen to that because it's a great strategy for in the first year you own something going to be a rental, maybe buy it towards the end of the year, run it as an Airbnb for the end of the year. Not a big time commitment. 100 plus hours. Take the cost segregation study, write that all off and use it. It's actually will lower your W-2 income. It's useful. And then in year two, if you want to go back to it being a normal rent.


Speaker 1 (00:14:17) - So we're talking about accelerating your depreciation and therefore decreasing the amount of your taxable income with this strategy.


Speaker 3 (00:14:27) - Yep. So the cost segregation study where the basics of cost segregation, when you hear the term, first of all, you only use it if you can use the loss. But if the loss is going to be passive, don't add cost, it's going to cost you money and get you not. But if you can use the law, what is cost? Segregation? We depreciate more aggressively.


Speaker 3 (00:14:46) - A very brief description. Everything outdoors that God did not put there. Fences, sidewalks, decks, landscaping. It was put there by builders like the oak tree that the squirrel put there. We give God credit for that one. But if the builder actually planted a row of trees, they get the credit. All these things that God did not put outdoors can be depreciated very rapidly and get you a much larger write off. And then all personal property which we define as anything a tenant can steal without using power tools. So furniture, some of the carpeting, maybe some of the cupboards, window treatments, etcetera. That's a cost seg study that will draw your income. Usually it produces a loss. And then we have to ask, can you use the loss?


Speaker 1 (00:15:33) - We hit on a very specific and valuable strategy there for reducing you, the real estate investors, taxable income. But just pulling back to something more basic, you said something important in the beginning there when asked about how rental income is taxed differently than the bank.


Speaker 1 (00:15:50) - You did let us know that rental income is not subject to self-employment tax and Social Security tax. And I know it's difficult to do 1 to 1 because certainly it depends. But oh, if one is in the 24% tax bracket, so therefore they're $1 from their job, that really only resulted in them getting $0.76 if they get $1 from rental income, just roughly or perhaps give us a range as to how much after tax income they get from that dollar of rent income.


Speaker 3 (00:16:19) - Classic Lawyer Answer It depends. Here's a rough rule of thumb. So self-employment and Social Security tax are pretty much the same thing.


Speaker 1 (00:16:26) - And how much percentage are they alone?


Speaker 3 (00:16:28) - So here's how the bracket work. That's the reverse of the normal bracket. It gets lower. The more you make. Roughly speaking, I'm just rounding here. If you have 150 gram of Social Security or self-employment taxable income, for example, your W-2, this is per person, not per couple. If you have 150 up to 150, your Social Security tax bracket is roughly 15%.


Speaker 3 (00:16:52) - Then it drops after that 150 grand to right around 3 to 5%, depending on factors you don't want to know. So it depends on your total income. For example, if you have a $200,000 W-2 and you run out and have a side business that generates self-employment tax, your self-employment tax is probably only 3 to 5%. So it depends on how much you're making that is self-employment taxable.


Speaker 1 (00:17:18) - Right. So we're talking about how you will have a chance to keep more of your $1 of rent income than you would from your $1 of day job income. And that's interesting with the Social Security tax, I actually didn't realize that, therefore, Social Security tax is a regressive tax policy. With increasing income, you pay a lower tax rate where generally overall in the United States, we would have with the income tax what's called a progressive tax policy, where you pay a higher tax rate with increasing income.


Speaker 3 (00:17:47) - Correct. And here's the theory to make it pass politically. Back when they did this in the 30s, they had to sell it as it's insurance and we're going to cap out your insurance, but we're also going to cap out your benefits.


Speaker 3 (00:17:59) - And so if you look in that regard, it's not really regressive because your benefits are also capped out. Now, what's one of the proposals? Let's make it flat so that people who make more subsidizing, those who make less, making it functionally progressive because you don't get any more benefits past a certain level.


Speaker 1 (00:18:17) - You're listening to get raises occasionally. We're talking with the tax reduction lawyer, John. Here we come back, we're going to talk about some more of those real estate tax advantages and get into the nuances of some things that people don't understand that well, like tax depreciation and the 1031 exchange. More with John. I'm your host, Keith Reinhold. Jerry listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 42056. They have provided our tribe with more loans than anyone there truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four Plex's. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge personally, though, even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio.


Speaker 1 (00:19:04) - Start at Ridge Lending Group. You know, I'll just tell you for the most passive part of my real estate investing personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in. Returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25. K. You don't even need to be accredited. For some of them, it's all backed by real estate and I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2, jobs, income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 668660. And this isn't a solicitation If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to 66866.


Speaker 4 (00:20:15) - This is author Kristen Tait. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Reinhold and don't Quit Your Day dream.


Speaker 1 (00:20:32) - Welcome back to Get Rich. Okay. So we're talking with John here. The tax reduction lawyer is how he's known. You can learn more about him at tax reduction, lawyer John's real estate investors. We get some of the very best tax breaks anywhere. In fact, they're so generous that I consider it to be a profit source. And I don't know that you can really say that about taxes in all contexts. I talk about how real estate actually pays you five way simultaneously appreciation cash flow, loan pay down made by the tenant. Fourthly, is that generous basket of tax benefits that we'll discuss. And then fifthly, is the inflation profiting benefit that you get on the long term fixed interest rate debt? But coming back to the fourth one, the tax advantages, really the two big ones that I predominantly think of, the quickly come to mind for a lot of us are tax depreciation, which is a deduction that reduces the investor's taxable income and the 1031 exchange, meaning that we can defer all of our capital gains tax all of our lives, which is incredible.


Speaker 1 (00:21:34) - But do you want to touch on the tax depreciation portion first, John, and tell us why that's so integral and valuable to real estate investors? Sure. When you buy stock.


Speaker 3 (00:21:43) - For example, on the market, it does not produce any paper deductions. Basically, you get the stock, whatever you paid for, it is your tax cost, your basis, and when you sell it, you just look, what did I sell it for, minus the tax cost. That's my gain. There are no benefits in the intervening time. You just sit and hold it. Nothing really happens. Real estate is different and that you get a paper deduction. Why Congress said so. You get something called depreciation and it's formulaic. You take the cost that you have in the property, what you have invested, and you multiply it by some number. Now that's where the cost segregation gets interesting because we debate which number. But for the moment, let's just pick a number. The most typical one is 3.6%. Multiply the building by 0.036 of what you have invested in it.


Speaker 3 (00:22:33) - And annually that's a deduction you get because and so that goes a long way when you add it to other expenses to reducing your income to zero. So the so if you have the income tax rate is much lower.


Speaker 1 (00:22:45) - So if you have a $1 million building, we're not talking about the value of the land with the building, just a $1 million building. Therefore you'd have about $36,000 each year that you do not get taxed on. That $36,000 is deducted from your rent income.


Speaker 3 (00:23:03) - Exactly. Try that with stock or mean you can. So that was a hypothetical non suggestion. Yeah, but that's one of the big benefits of depreciation. Now what's the downside? Because there's always strings attached. It drops your tax calls. So if I bought for a million, I took 36,000. Now my tax cost is 964,000. And so when I sell, if I sell will get into that, I have a larger gain. So there's a trade off. Now, in fairness, one of the other benefits of rental real estate is if you do sell for cash and you choose to pay taxes, we're going to talk about an alternative.


Speaker 3 (00:23:39) - If you choose to pay taxes, the tax rate on selling real estate are almost always 98% of the time lower than your normal tax bracket. So even if you sell after getting this depreciation benefit, the bracket is almost always considerably lower than your normal income, which is nice.


Speaker 1 (00:23:59) - I don't want this point to be lost on people. With that example I give of the $1 million building that you buy and the fact that say you get $100,000 of rent income from that, you'd only be taxed on $64,000 worth because you're able to deduct 3.6% of the value of the million dollar building against your rent income. And that $36,000 deduction typically with a lot of other investments, in order to get that deduction, you would have to make a $36,000 expense, like, for example, buying a new heating system for the building. But no, you don't have to buy a new $36,000 heating system for the building where you might qualify for that deduction. It's just the magic of appreciation. You can just take this $36,000 deduction out of thin air because the tax code says that you can.


Speaker 3 (00:24:47) - Yep, it's pretty much automatic. In fact, the code says you have to take it.


Speaker 1 (00:24:51) - That's right. I have learned that the tax code actually says you must take this benefit. And who wouldn't want to do that? Would there be any situation in which someone would not want to do that job?


Speaker 3 (00:25:02) - Yes. If they're going to sell later on or if they're going to sell in the comparatively near future, let's say they're going to buy and hold rent for three years and they're going to sell after three years taking the depreciation if it did not help them, let's say, created a passive loss, raises their bracket a little bit when they sell in three years. Now it's still lower than your normal bracket. It's just not as. Much lower as you would like. So yeah, there are a few spots where people resisting depreciation. It's pretty rare, but it happens.


Speaker 1 (00:25:32) - So you must take that depreciation, which is going to be a benefit to most investors in most cases down the road when it comes time to sell this million dollar building, oh, say ten years later, you wanted to sell this million dollar building for $2 million.


Speaker 1 (00:25:47) - Oh, I'm certainly oversimplifying here, but say that gave you $1 million gain because you bought it for 1 million and you're selling it for $2 million down the road. We have something known as the 1031 exchange. It's called the light kind exchange. It's also known as a tax deferred exchange. Tell us more about the 1031 exchange when it comes to selling this example, building ten years down the road for $1 million more than what you bought it for.


Speaker 3 (00:26:13) - You want to avoid paying tax. Here's the basics and then we'll get into a little bit of the process. The basics are you're swapping one house for another, but you don't have to direct swap. It's not barter. You don't have to go find someone who wants your house and you happen to want their house. That's just not practical. Rather, you sell your house, the money goes into the hands. This is really important of what's called a qualified intermediary. There are tons of them and that's pretty much a commodity at this point. So they're not that expensive.


Speaker 3 (00:26:39) - The money has to go in their hands. If you touch the money with your hands, it becomes dirty money and it's taxable, which sells. It goes straight from closing to the qualified intermediary. And you have certain deadlines, 45 days to find properties that you want and 180 days total from the sale date close, which kind of can help you time, especially if you have a cooperative buyer helps you. You need a time. For example, maybe I want to find the property I want sooner and then get out and sell the one I've got and you can do it in reverse order. You can go buy a property and then sell something afterwards and say to the government, Listen, I want the funds from this later sale to apply to this prior purchase. A reverse reverse fixture. Yeah, reverse exchange. And there are some creative games we can play with reverse exchanges. They're looser rule wise than the normal ones. I enjoy those 1031 exchange.


Speaker 1 (00:27:36) - Such a benefit where you can defer your capital gains tax.


Speaker 1 (00:27:40) - Hey, in this example you had $1 million then that would be subject to the capital gains tax, which is going to be a rate of 15% or more. And if you don't do a 1031 exchange, you have to pay back to the government all at once that tax depreciation that we discussed earlier. So there are actually consequences. It's going to feel like there are consequences to not doing a 1031 exchange. So you kind of get your money trapped in this real estate game. It might be the best place to have it, but that's something that I think investors need to understand for the long term.


Speaker 3 (00:28:12) - And it's the classic strategy. 1031 Until you die. Now, what typically occurs with investors and then life cycle, they want a little more time, so they start 1030, letting in some more passive type investments, whether it's with a management company or a property that by its nature tends to be a little bit more passive, but the object is to die and not sell. I'm not suggesting everyone go out and die right away.


Speaker 3 (00:28:37) - That's great tax planning. But in terms of reality, it's not so great. But if you. 1031 let's give an example. You bought for a million, many years later it's worth 10 million. Your basis in the property is 100,000. You've depreciated it. So if you sell, there's a huge gain, you die. Whoever inherits is going to love you. At least we hope they will, because when they inherit the property that's worth 10 million, their tax cost, their basis at law is 10 million. They can sell the next day with no gain. That's the infamous step up in basis. And the object is to convert the deferral into tax free. If you defer long enough, it becomes tax free. That's the goal.


Speaker 1 (00:29:18) - And John touched on it. There is no limit to the number of times that you can do the 1031 tax deferred exchange. As a real estate investor, you can trade up from a $1 million property to a $2 million property. Ten more years go by to a $4 million property.


Speaker 1 (00:29:33) - Ten more years go by to an $8 million property. Now I'm certainly oversimplifying this, but at each step you don't owe any capital gains tax. So because you can defer it endlessly, you really never have to pay it and effectively becomes tax free with that step up and basis to your heirs like John just described. John, I'd like to know your thoughts. You know, it seems a few different presidents lately. I know Biden, at least he threatened to do away with the 1031 exchange. I just wonder if the 1031 exchange is ever going to get precarious. I think some people, though, don't understand that the 1031 tax deferred exchange has been around for more than a hundred years.


Speaker 3 (00:30:12) - They've been talking about getting rid of the 1031 since the 1930, and Democratic administrations have threatened to do it since the 1930. They've never had the supermajority they need to actually get away with it. And even then they've come close to it. And even then, some of the lobbyists on the Democratic side said, listen, this is not a good idea, freezes up capital.


Speaker 3 (00:30:36) - We want people to be able to buy and sell and not be frozen into a property because of tax reasons. So, look, could it happen? Sure. We live in a crazy world, but the probability of the 1031 going away I think is pretty darn low. Let me give one real quick trick that's going to help. Some people won't help very many, but the ones that helps it help big time for you. 1031 A property. Ask your accountant. Do I have any passive losses tied up in the property? They're going to know there's going to be a form on your larger tax return. There are different versions of your return. The big thick one is not. The one that goes to the government. Ask them how much passive activity loss you have in the building. Whatever that is in a 1031. Take out the cash. It's tax free and in fact, it's tax arbitrage. To give you an example. We are selling a property. You had a million and you're selling for 2 million.


Speaker 3 (00:31:29) - Let's say you had 100,000 of passive losses tied up in it. Go ahead and take out 100,000 cash from the exchange. Go ahead, ask double check with the 1031 intermediary because they know the rules. But go ahead and take out the 100,000. What happens? You get the 100,000 tax free because your passive losses that were hibernating on the return are now activated and wipe out. Normally when you pull cash out of a 1031, there's gains. Normally we don't do that. But here the losses are activated. They not only offset the 100 you pulled out, they drop your tax bracket because you're getting a capital gains tax bracket offset by a normal loss that was now brought out of hibernation. So just a little trick for those of you always before 1031, always ask your CPA, what's my passive activity loss? And think about taking out exactly that amount of cash, tax rate, tax arbitrage.


Speaker 1 (00:32:28) - I just learned something as well. I've got a number of 1031 exchanges in my life and that's one tip that I sure didn't know about.


Speaker 1 (00:32:35) - So thanks for that. And if you, the listener, if you want to learn the nuances of the 1031 exchange, which John and I aren't going to do here, because that really goes a mile deep with the three properties rule and the 200% rule and all of that. You can listen to episode 143 where that entire episode is dedicated to the 1031 tax deferred exchange and just how you can best pull it off for maximum tax efficiency so that you can then go ahead and re leverage those dollars into a larger property later. Well, John, that was very helpful on both tax depreciation and the 1031 exchange. Do you have any last things to share with us? Any last strategies so that a real estate investor can pay less in tax or anything that's particularly helpful?


Speaker 3 (00:33:21) - Yes. There's this concept of the Trump tax law called the pass through deduction or qualified business income tax code, Section 199 Capital A First of all, it applies to all rentals. Unless they're triple net least. A lot of accountants still don't get that.


Speaker 3 (00:33:38) - You have to have a trade or business that's tax term trade or business rentals that are not triple net leased are a trade or business, which is a good thing under the code. So there's this deduction. It's large. If you're showing that income even after depreciation and everything you buy is typically 20% of the net income. So if I'm showing 100 grand of net income, I get a $20,000 deduction because Congress said so. Protect that. In particular, if you make roughly I'm rounding here 164 grand total taxable income on your 1040 single and roughly 370 filing joint, there are special things you need to do to maximize the QBI and you need to do it before the end of the year. Nothing pains me more than to see high income people who benefit the most from this deduction because of their high bracket and they're in these high brackets. And if they would have done a little bit of talking to their CPA, hey, I think I'm going to make married filing jointly 370 or more for the year. It's going to cut my QBI based on the mechanical rules.


Speaker 3 (00:34:41) - What can I do to preserve my qualified business? Income tax deduction might pass their tax deduction. To do that, you need a really good set of books and returns. You have to have good books in the knowledge of your income so your accountant can look and say, Hey, here's how much we think you're going to make. B Here's what we can do to preserve this deduction. That is the number one easy pick up by C in tax returns. I review for planning purposes that people missed in prior years and we tell them going forward, please, please towards the end of the year, start thinking about if you're going to show gain. Doesn't matter if you're showing a loss, but if you're going to show gain in any business, not just rentals, please look at the deduction. Please make sure you're getting the full 20%.


Speaker 1 (00:35:25) - John is an expert at looking at your recent tax returns and pointing it to one area and saying, hey, there's a quick ROI for you if we change this. And right over there is another quick ROI for you if we change this.


Speaker 1 (00:35:37) - Well, John, that's been great with what we can do with the existing tax code to help optimize our situation. But wrapping up here, a lot of people are interested in what's coming down the road in the future. It can be a little bit speculative, but it also can be a proxy for how people and politicians are thinking. And that's. Is there anything that the presidential candidates are offering tax wise? It's very interesting whether that be an RFK Jr or a Ron DeSantis or a Vivek Ramaswamy or Nikki Haley or anyone else with this potential future direction of where an influential candidate wants to take taxes.


Speaker 3 (00:36:15) - I think the parties are pretty consistent regardless of candidate. Now they each have their subgenre of flavor, right? Do you like your chocolate? Dark or milk chocolate or with or without salt, but it's still milk chocolate. So likewise, the Democratic presidential candidates are going to be looking to increase taxes, get rid of what they view as loopholes, and they are aware of real estate having a lot of special benefits and they don't care for it.


Speaker 3 (00:36:41) - The Republicans, by contrast, are going to be more for lowering taxes. They are not hostile to real estate. They're generally pro-business, especially pro small business. And I think that's consistent across the board. I don't think there's a lot of deviation there with either party. The specific proposals will vary. For example, the Kennedy candidate strikes me as less hardcore left wing and a little more common sensical than maybe some of the more progressive sorts and might not be as harsh in that regard.


Speaker 1 (00:37:13) - Well, that's helpful in knowing what future policy might be and that might affect the way that you want to vote. This has been really helpful, particularly to real estate investors and small business owners. You are the tax reduction lawyer, so if our audience wants to connect with you and learn more about what you can do for them, what's the best way for them to do that?


Speaker 3 (00:37:33) - Not coincidentally, tax reduction and I put out a ton of content. I take a few clients but it's really getting more and more content based.


Speaker 3 (00:37:43) - So if you like what you heard, you might hear more.


Speaker 1 (00:37:47) - Sometimes in the video, hear you and the audio only might not be able to see that. For example, when John was using the word loopholes, he was using his fingers as air quotes. He understands that these are intentional incentives that help direct behavior because the government knows that society is generally better off when the private sector and the mom and pop investor are the ones providing good housing for society. A lot of public housing projects really haven't fared so well. So that's what John is here to help you do provide clean, safe, affordable, functional housing for others and get all the tax benefits that come along with that. Hey, John. Hi. It's been great having you here on the show.


Speaker 3 (00:38:26) - It has been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.


Speaker 1 (00:38:35) - Oh, yeah. Nice clear breakdowns from the tax reduction lawyer John Heyer. I was talking with John Moore outside of our show. He read the entire some 1000 page long inflation reduction act that was passed last year.


Speaker 1 (00:38:51) - He did that to try to help understand its tax implications for his clients and was kind of impressed that he had the endurance, I suppose, to read all of it. And I asked him how many members of Congress he thinks read it and we both answer the question at the same time. Zero To achieve one looks like the top 1%. You must act like the top 1% does. And that might include tapping the expertise of a pro like John to review what you've learned today with our expert guest John. No changes to federal income tax rates are expected. There are ways to lighten the tax burden on your short term rentals, which you might not be aware of. Your dollar of day job income that's taxed at a higher rate than your dollar of rent income. Because on your day job income, you must pay Social Security and self-employment tax. You don't pay those tax types on your rent income. Real estate tax depreciation is kind of like magic. It means that you can write off a portion of your rent income each year, meaning that you can make it non-taxable even if you don't have a real expense associated with doing that.


Speaker 1 (00:40:03) - You learn more about the 1031 tax deferred exchange and the fact that it will persist as a benefit for real estate investors is highly likely. Again, if you like what you learn each week on the Gerry podcast, I invite you to subscribe or follow within your favorite podcasting device. For those non podcast listener friends you might have, they can try the Get Rich Education mobile app. Everything that we do is free until next week. We'll all be back to help you build your wealth. I'm your host, Keith Wild. Don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 5 (00:40:36) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.


Speaker 1 (00:41:04) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building Get rich

Direct download: GREepisode469_.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:00am EST

With skyrocketing property insurance costs, more homeowners are skipping insurance altogether. That proportion is estimated at 12% per the WSJ.

Single-family rents are up 6.5% annually.

Next, we discuss what might be America’s best cash flowing real estate market.

Home prices are up this year for four main reasons: large Millennial demand, scarce supply, mostly healthy economy, interest rate levels that are actually normal.

As we discuss one of America’s best cash flowing markets, it’s in a state that has strong legal protections for landlords.

The cost of living there is 17% below the national average. Unemployment is 2%, according to the provider.

Single-family rents are $1,200 to $1,500; prices are $115,000 to $140,000. 

You can own a freshly renovated property, complete with granite countertops. Average tenant duration is 3-4 years.

With higher interest rates, more buyers in this market are paying all-cash or making a larger down payment.

Contact your GRE Investment Coach, a free service, if you consider purchasing property in this investor-advantaged market.


National home prices and insurance costs [00:00:01]

Discussion on the increase in national home prices and the impact of rising insurance costs on homeowners.

Rise in single-family rent growth [00:04:04]

Exploration of the increase in single-family rent growth and its implications for the rental housing market.

America's best cash flow real estate market [00:07:54]

Introduction to an area with low property prices and potential for cash flow, including its job growth and investor advantages.

The lost luggage incident [00:11:27]

Keith shares his memory of his luggage arriving late during a trip to Little Rock and going for a run in street shoes.

Little Rock's recognition as a top place for young professionals [00:13:15]

Forbes Advisor ranks Little Rock, North Little Rock, and Conway as top ten places for young professionals to live, highlighting employment opportunities and affordability.

Growth and economic drivers in central Arkansas [00:15:20]

Discussion on population growth, job creation, and economic drivers in central Arkansas, including the presence of distribution hubs, major retailers, tech companies, and government and medical sectors.

The demand for single family rentals [00:20:40]

The speaker discusses the shift in multifamily housing, the increase in demand for single family rentals, and the lack of new construction in this sector.

Arkansas as a landlord-friendly state [00:21:42]

The speaker explains that Arkansas has landlord-friendly laws and a simple eviction process, with evictions typically taking 30 days or less and costing less than $1000.

Criteria for properties in the investor market [00:24:59]

The speaker talks about the areas and property types that fit their buy box, focusing on working-class tenants and B-class properties in the Little Rock metro area.

The availability of properties in Little Rock [00:30:51]

The speaker discusses the current tight inventory in the Little Rock market and how it affects both homeowners and tenants. Demand is high, but there are fewer places to rent or buy.

Interest rates and cash buyers [00:31:52]

The speaker talks about the impact of higher interest rates on investors and the increase in cash buyers. Some investors are willing to pay all cash now with the intention of refinancing later when interest rates come down.

Advantages of investing in Little Rock [00:33:48]

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Get access to Little Rock properties:

If you’d like help with one of 

GRE’s Investment Coaches (free), start here:

Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review” 

Top Properties & Providers:

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Complete episode transcript:


Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. National home prices continue to increase for at least four big reasons. There's also a hindrance that's getting so bad that it could keep more price growth in check. We look at why single-family rent growth is increasing. Then we focus on one particular metro area that could be America's best cash flow real estate market and why today on Get Rich education.


Speaker 2 (00:00:30) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get rich education.


Speaker 1 (00:00:53) - Walking from Whitney Island to Mt. Whitney, California, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. And this is Get Rich. Education, National home prices continue to increase and no one knows what mortgage rates are going to do. There's one factor that could slow the home price growth party down. It could be impeded a little by these rising insurance costs. Now, in years past, do you know how many American homeowners decided that they were just going to skip insurance and not buy it so that they don't have to pay the premium? Any idea what percent? Well, the longer term norm is that 5 to 8% of homeowners skipped insurance.


Speaker 1 (00:01:38) - They just said we'll handle any risk and not buy it. Hm. Maybe that's sort of like not using a case for your phone, perhaps, which I don't actually. I never use a case for my phone, but I do have insurance on all of my properties. Well, The Wall Street Journal was just reporting that the number of homeowners that have decided to forego insurance has increased. Okay. The longer term historic number is 5 to 8%. That decided to skip insurance. And now amidst insurance premiums that in a lot of places have risen faster than inflation, that proportion of those that skip homeowners insurance is now from 5 to 8%, up to 12%. Yeah, 12% of homeowners electing to skip insurance. And they're going to be those people that are free and clear of a mortgage. And if you have a mortgage, you must have property insurance. The Wall Street Journal also found that it's mostly lower income people that forgo it, lower income people that skip the insurance. Now, of course, homeowner borrowers, you have to eat that premium increase if you're a homeowner, borrower, they have to eat that.


Speaker 1 (00:02:53) - You're going to remember that just seven episodes ago on Episode 461, I went into a lot of detail on the areas of the nation that do have skyrocketing insurance premiums. And if you're a landlord in any of those markets, you can pass along the hot potato because you can raise your rents in order to offset that. But primary residence homeowners, they cannot do that. They cannot pass along the hot potato. Homeowners have to eat the hot potato. And sometimes that hot potato can burn the roof of your mouth. That's why the proportion of those that skip insurance has about doubled. And also some areas have become uninsurable. If you want a new policy, think of some of the forest fire prone areas out west and you know, the eastern half of the nation, they can get forest fires, too, of course, But east of the Mississippi, it stays more humid and you get more rain. That's why it's just not as much of a problem in the eastern half of the US. Well, you've taken my guidance to heart and you sure are passing along the insurance hot potato, raising the rent on your tenants.


Speaker 1 (00:04:04) - Here's some evidence because John Burns, real estate and consulting shows us that in the latest stats, single family rents are up 6.5% year over year. Yeah, single family rentals are also seeing higher occupancy and lower vacancy, and that's 6.5% annual growth rate in single family. So that's worth watching if you forecast inflation because of course that does make up part of the CPI like Rick and I recently discussed. Now single family rentals. They are roughly one quarter of America's rental housing stock. And this differs, by the way, from the rent growth on larger apartment buildings. Apartment building rent growth is slow due to so much new construction of larger apartment buildings where they're just still not building enough single family rentals in so many markets. So with this low, really just awful affordability for wannabe homeowners, what's happening in this area is that single families, they're attracting quality tenants. As this affordability worsens, the quality of the single family tenant is therefore increasing. The Fred charts tell us that the median sales price of the new build home is now $437,000 for 37.


Speaker 1 (00:05:31) - Note that that's for a new build, not existing. And home prices are up, up, up for four big reasons. It's really for major reasons that home prices are up. There is high home demand from the large millennial generation, this astoundingly scarce supply. Thirdly, there is a still pretty strong economy and. And then fourthly, believe it or not, if you're new to real estate, fourthly is, yes, historically normal mortgage interest rate levels. All these things are supporting these higher and higher prices and this scarce housing supply. That is a genuine American problem that we have here. Now, President Biden, he's tried to address it with a five year plan that he announced last year. And in just two days, Republican presidential candidates are going to take the stage in California for the second GOP primary debate. And the presidential candidates, they should be asked, what would you do about the housing shortage? That question was not asked in the first presidential debate. If I could ask them one question, yeah, it would be about housing and our next president matters whether Biden wins reelection or whether it's someone else.


Speaker 1 (00:06:44) - But my gosh, America spends too much time wrapped up in all this debate posturing and all this media hype over the positioning of the candidates. I mean, this is already been going on for months and months. Trump, Haley Pence, Ramaswamy DeSantis. Yes, the primaries are sooner, but the presidential election is still more than a full year into the future, even from this point. And this has already been going on for this long. I mean, virtually no other nation in the world drags it out for this long. It's almost a two year cycle of vetting these presidential candidates with two years. That's half of a presidential term right there. My goodness. Next week, as I'll be leaning on my team for a makeshift studio, I'll be joining you from Chicago, Illinois. And I will be checking out the sites and also the real estate opportunities there and those still in Chicago land. It's typically on the Indiana side of the Illinois Indiana line, where you'll tend to find the better real estate deals and the lower taxes is back to this week's show.


Speaker 1 (00:07:54) - We're not talking about Chicago today. Straight ahead, is this America's best cash flow real estate market? It's an area that has population and job growth, but it's slow growth. You'll be surprised with how low the property prices are. I mean, they're often below replacement cost, which is remarkable. But what that means is with today's high materials and labor and regulatory costs, it would pay more to build a new home on that site than what you can buy that completed existing for home today that was built decades ago. And I've walked these very neighborhoods. A lot of them are nice. They're not in war zone areas. The city has a great base of distribution jobs. It says sector where it's hard to outsource distribution jobs over to a less developed nations because those jobs need to be fixed right there where you need to move the goods. So in this city, they are building fulfillment centers. That's warehousing in this highly investor advantaged place is also a state capital. So they have another base of government jobs that are not going away.


Speaker 1 (00:08:58) - I'm talking to an experienced principal in this market that offers freshly renovated property to out of market investors like you. That's next. I'm Keith Windell you're listening to Get Rich Education. Jerry listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 42056. They have provided our tribe with more loans than anyone there truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plex. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge personally, though even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in. Returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited. For some of them. It's all backed by real estate.


Speaker 1 (00:10:10) - And I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2, jobs, income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 668660. And this isn't a solicitation If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to 66866. This is Perrin Life's Patrick Donahoe. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Wayne Mold. And don't quit your day dream. Hey, well, I'd like to welcome in one of our marketplace providers in such in Investor advantage geography, that is in Little Rock, Arkansas. Brian, we're going to be listening to one of the voices of Marketplace today. Hey, thanks so much for being here. Hey, thank you, Keith. Appreciate being here for the second time. This is great. Great catching up with you.


Speaker 1 (00:11:27) - Well, that's right. Now, it's been a few years since you and I got together in person in Little Rock, Arkansas, and we toured the market. If we walked the number of properties. But I think the thing that stands out most to me with that trip to Little Rock, where I spent the day with you, is that my baggage arrived late. Now, we had good accommodations at the Capitol Hotel, kind of the stately nice hotel right in the center of downtown. But my luggage to Little Rock arrived about 20 hours late. I've had really good luck with luggage all my life, but didn't this time. And my most enduring memory maybe, is that I had to go running in street shoes. And I still remember near the end of my run, I was running over the bridge that spans the Arkansas River between North Little Rock and Little Rock. Looking down while I was running at these slightly dressy black shoes on my feet, thinking, My gosh, it's a miracle that my feet don't hurt me.


Speaker 1 (00:12:24) - Yeah, that's exactly what I remember, Keith. I remember piecing it together. So you didn't come right out and just tell me you'd mention your bag had been lost. And then you mentioned that you went for a run that morning and thought, What did you run? So, yeah, you described basically running in your loafers from the day before. So I was like, This guy's a real machine from the north, the Great North down here. So I was impressed. Yes. And you're probably also wondering, did you really have to go running it? Right? That's the other thing. Well, right. Hey, you and I were just discussing this great media clip that we watched there from the local news there in Little Rock. This tells us quite a bit about the economic drivers in Little Rock as well as the low median home price there in the Little Rock area. Let's listen to this together. This is about two minutes in length and then we'll come back to comment.


Speaker 3 (00:13:15) - We turn now to the national recognition that three communities in central Arkansas are receiving.


Speaker 3 (00:13:20) - Little Rock North, Little Rock and Conway ranked in the top ten places for young professionals to live by for.


Speaker 1 (00:13:27) - Some great news channel. Seven's Brenda Lipinski is on your side tonight. She joins us now live in our studio. Brenda, tell us a little bit about these rankings.


Speaker 3 (00:13:34) - Yes, Chris. So Forbes advisor analyzed 99 of 100 largest cities and found that Little Rock North, Little Rock and Conway had great opportunities for young people. Little Rock North, Little Rock and Conway named Top ten Best Places for Young Professionals to Live by Forbes Advisor. And some agree. I think that there's no no doubt here in Arkansas, central Arkansas that we foster some of the greatest minds in talent. The criteria for the ranking included employment and pay, housing affordability, lifestyle and cost of living. North Little Rock Chamber of Commerce saying investment in young people is crucial for the area.


Speaker 1 (00:14:11) - They're the next leaders. So we need to make sure that we can continue to recruit them and develop them because they're going to be the next people on our board of directors are going to be the next city council members.


Speaker 3 (00:14:19) - Mayor Frank Scott Junior, who's a millennial, says good public education and jobs are a must.


Speaker 1 (00:14:25) - We've seen historic job growth for close to 10,000 new jobs.


Speaker 3 (00:14:28) - Young professionals saying there's a ton of reasons why they like the area, the community affordability.


Speaker 1 (00:14:34) - Every single time I connect with someone and I'm I'm able to find a new opportunity, whether it be inside of work and with my career or outside of work with just having fun.


Speaker 3 (00:14:44) - And for the future. So I'm hoping the state will create policy that will continue to attract more young people and think about the ways that we can continue to attract diverse professionals and how policy can impact people's image of the state and of the area specifically. Now, Forbes advisor also says that the areas are evolving into an entrepreneurial and innovation hub, which may also attract young professionals on your side. I'm Brenda Lipinski.


Speaker 1 (00:15:09) - Okay, Brenda, thanks so much. Forbes also likes the cost of living in central Arkansas, where the median home price is about $200,000. Right. So that's what the media is reporting.


Speaker 1 (00:15:20) - But you're right there, you're the boots on the ground. So tell us more about population growth and job creation and just overall the market vibe in the drivers there in central Arkansas. We have continued to see growth here. You know, I think it was mentioned that over 10,000 jobs created in just the last five years. One of the things that stands out here, too, is really driving that growth is that we're kind of known as a distribution hub or an upcoming distribution hub. A lot of that has to do with our geography and where we're located very centrally in the United States. And we're at the crossroads of two major interstates, I-40 and I-30. And so we've seen in just the last five years a very large Amazon facility put in actually three different fulfillment centers put in. So that's said to have brought in around 2000 jobs just right there. Then we've seen other big retailers come in like Lowe's and Ace Hardware and Dollar General, and they've all built distribution fulfillment centers here as well. And then even still we seeing growth with manufacturing moving into our river port here.


Speaker 1 (00:16:26) - It was just announced this year that a big Trex facility, they manufacture decking materials and from environmentally friendly sources and they're putting a major operation here. And they were drawn here for the location in proximity to the interstate. So those things really are driving us right now. A lot of our growth is accelerated by this sort of fulfillment warehousing distribution space. We have other drivers, too, and just the last few years, very diverse in the economy here. But we have a large tech company here called Apta. G. They were created right here in Little Rock and have really accelerated their growth. I believe they're said to get up to around 800 jobs. And those are all young professionals that could be working in Silicon Valley if they wanted to. Very diverse. We have aerospace here with Disso Falcon Jet, and then we have lots of government jobs here. We are the state capital. So we have all of our state government here. We're also a major medical center. So all of our medical professionals train here.


Speaker 1 (00:17:24) - Our medical school for the state is here in Little Rock. So all of our large hospitals there's on that note, things that we have coming now, they're announced they're building a new dental school here in Little Rock. So there's not a dental school in Arkansas currently. Also building a veterinarian school here in Little Rock. These are both going to be attached to another college that's here in Arkansas. So starting on a good foundation for those two schools. But that's another exciting move for Little Rock. So all these things are driving the workforce and bringing in younger workers, generating out workers from the medical school, for example, putting them out into the marketplace here. So we have a lot of young professionals, and I think that's why Forbes ranked us in the top ten of places for young professionals to live being the state capital there. Yes, you have that base of government jobs, some of the private sector jobs you mentioned you mentioned the expansion of medical. You know, these are two areas, government and medical that rarely contract very much, especially with the medical often growing and then with the government jobs, with the state capital being there in Little Rock, those just aren't the type of jobs that are going to be outsourced.


Speaker 1 (00:18:32) - And they're also not going to move the capital from little Rock to Pine Bluff, Arkansas, anytime soon either. So you do have that base there. And Brian, you and I were looking at different media articles recently and studying more statistics. No one area has it all. Little Rock has a lot of advantageous drivers, especially a high ratio of rent income to purchase price for investors. And we'll get into that later. But really with one of the statistics that we were consuming together, basically, if you think of it as gradients in an area's population growth and job growth, maybe let's think of five of them. There's high growth, there's slower growth, there's no change, there's slow decline or there's fast decline. And of those five, it seemed to be pointing to that second one, slow growth for the area. Yes, I mean, we're a very linear market here. Our growth is consistent. We haven't had a major increase or a major dip. We're just very consistent in linear in our growth.


Speaker 1 (00:19:32) - But it is continuous. We've seen that happen with even with housing, we've seen a lot of permits increase in the last few years, more multifamily permits even than single family permits. And it kind of tells you that the demand that's there for housing that rises along with the growth we are in that category, I would say, yeah, that's right. When we think about slow population growth, obviously those people need to be housed somewhere. And in the past decade you touched on it. To your point, both Little Rock and North Little Rock have had more multifamily built than they've had single family homes built. And nationally we are just so undersupplied depending on what numbers you look at. Were millions of housing units undersupplied nationally? How does that translate to the local picture there in central Arkansas, including Little Rock as far as being oversupplied, adequately supplied or undersupplied with housing? Well, I think we're undersupplied with single family housing first, and there's a real demand there. And there has been an increase in multifamily and most of that multifamily increase is at the top of the market.


Speaker 1 (00:20:40) - So there's been a real shift in multifamily. And what maybe used to be an A-class multifamily building is now A, B or a C because new A-class has been built to replace it. So we've seen some shift there. But where the majority of the housing stock is coming from is the multifamily sector and that puts more demand on the single family rentals. I mean, that is still a very desirable place. I think most anyone who lives in an apartment or has lived in apartment aspire to eventually have their own home or be within their own four walls in a yard that, you know, they belong to them or they control or rent or whatever else and have their own piece. So their demand stays there for single family rental, but there's not as much being built. So we've really seen an increase in our single family rental rates. I know there's been increases across the country in rental rates, but usually it's linear here. But you know, we've with not a great big jump, but we've really experienced a significant jump over the last few years.


Speaker 1 (00:21:42) - And I think a lot of it is driven with the demand for the single family and there's just only so much of it Now. We think about investors. Of course, most of the investors that you provide product for come from out of state. They live in areas that aren't nearly as investor advantaged as Littlerock is, but that's about more than the numbers. Oftentimes it's about that local landlord tenant law. I've got to say, it's been a while since I've consumed any material about this, but I remember in the past reading for years that oftentimes Arkansas comes in as one of the most landlord friendly states. That's correct. And it's been that way for a long time here. Our process is very simple and it's very much in favor of the landlord. But here an average eviction, if you get to that point of having to evict, typically it takes 30 days or less to actually get the tenant that's fast and less than $1,000 and that's hiring an attorney. So you're hiring an attorney? We have several that specialize here in the Little Rock area, for example.


Speaker 1 (00:22:45) - They can turn this thing around in about 30 days. And the process is it goes to an unlawful detainer if you filed for eviction and the tenant hasn't followed the eviction process and hasn't followed the proper notices and the proper days to get out, then the legally you can follow a unlawful detainer. And once that process gets moving and it moves pretty fast, a writ of possession is issued. And so at that point, the tenant is actually served by a police officer and they don't it's not a harsh dragging out with handcuffs, but they show up and generally escort them out of the place. It's pretty quick process overall and it's backed up by law enforcement. So but in no means is it a bullying or a brutal process or anything like that. And most residents here in Little Rock in Arkansas in general, that's the way it's been forever. They understand it. And usually when you serve an eviction notice, it means business. And most tenants know it means business and they just abide by it. So really, we don't have to enforce all that many evictions all the way through other than that, we serve, so we serve evictions and they generally just get out.


Speaker 1 (00:23:51) - That's sort of the process in Arkansas is known as to being one of the most landlord friendly states, and it's been that way for quite a long time. Of course, we're highly interested in that long history of the law reinforcing landlord interests more so than tenant interests, since we are interested in being long term investors. And when we talk about a metro area there in and around Little Rock, including their MSA, which includes North Little Rock and Conway, and we sometimes want to think about, all right, now, what parts of town would fit ones by box? Because even in an investor advantaged place, you probably don't want class A+, single family homes because of those higher price points. Rents don't keep up proportionally. And then we also typically want to avoid class areas. Those properties are shabby. They can't attract a rent paying tenant and properties don't typically appreciate very well on those low end class properties. So tell us about those areas in the criteria that fit your buy box that you know that investors want to put in their portfolio? Yeah, that's correct.


Speaker 1 (00:24:59) - I mean, we really stick a lot into the space. We're looking for kind of that working class tenant. They've got a good job. They are, you know, blue collar. They're hardworking people. Generally it's a family. Those are the areas where we're focused on and we're not exclusively in Little Rock. As you mentioned, the metro area is about a 55 mile radius. There's about a million people within that radius, the metro area. And that encompasses other areas around us other than Little Rock. So the city of Little Rock. There's the city of North Little Rock, which is actually not just the north side of Little Rock. It's a separate city from Little Rock and the other side of the Sherwood, Cabot, Jacksonville, Conway, Benton, Bryant. All of these are communities, cities around us enjoying Little Rock. We find rentals in those areas, too. We target specific areas within those different cities where really that B-class property in that B-class tenant is looking to live. And so we're not just in Little Rock.


Speaker 1 (00:25:56) - We do venture out into some of these other areas and we're talking about the Little Rock, Arkansas, and the investor market there and its growth story. However, a slow growth story, perhaps it's not growing as fast as some Floridian counties are, where you have a lot of foreign in-migration, you're going to have less foreign in-migration, for example, in Little Rock as compared to a lot of other places. We think about where the tenant income stream is going to come from. We've talked about that. All of those market drivers there, we start to think about, all right, what are the properties like in the prices in the rents? So can you tell us about the property types and then get into some of the important numbers for investors, Brian, And tell us about the quality of the renovation you do to get that property ready and make it effectively turnkey for investors. Tell us about the properties, the prices in the rents. We try to target mostly single family and we do come across and dabble in some multifamily as well, and it's mostly smaller multifamily.


Speaker 1 (00:26:58) - So you know, anywhere from a duplex up to maybe a 20 or 30 unit complex and fits within our box. But mostly we're focused on single family rentals. Our criteria is a three bedroom. Obviously it's going to have a bath, but three bedroom, two bath is what we like. We do come across a lot of three bedroom, one and a half baths. A lot of these homes were built in the 1960s, 1970s. Those homes are going to have some of the more modern things, sheetrock versus plaster wire versus knob and tube. So, you know, those are reasons why we want to focus on those 1960s, 1970s homes. Again, most of them are three bedroom, one into two baths. Most of them are around 1200 square feet. And we do a fairly extensive remodel. We have a lot of boxes to check. But I would say our average home ends up with a new roof, new Hvac, new hot water heater, almost all new flooring. We always put in granite countertops.


Speaker 1 (00:27:53) - It's a staple in Little Rock. We find that that just is a little bit of a wow factor compared to some other competitors out there and what they're offering as a result. So we pay attention to the finishes. We want all the hardware to match, we want all the light kits to match. We want everything to feel uniform. And our whole philosophy is we're trying to attract best quality tenants we can, but we want this to be it. Hope this is the best rental property they've ever had as well. We want them to really fall in love with the property and our number one goal is to retain tenants for as long as possible because one of our biggest killers is turnover cost. So, you know, if you lose a tenant, you've got to get that thing rent ready and put it back out on the market. And you've got to go through the whole process of finding a new tenant. So what we find is by providing a better product, it equals longevity of the tenant and then staying with us for a long time.


Speaker 1 (00:28:46) - And we typically start with an 18 month lease with escalators there with rent increases built in. But we find that we keep tenants for three and four years. Really good success with that. And think a lot of it is due to the areas we pick and then the product that we put out in the market. That's an excellent tenancy duration between 3 and 4 years with what you just laid out and describe there with these fresh rehabs and even granite countertops in your single family homes, it kind of feels like your own. So therefore you want to be a tenant longer. And I think that tenant duration, as long as mortgage interest rates stay high, really is set up to lengthen because it's that much more difficult for a renter to go out and be a first time homebuyer. So therefore, if you put them in a rental that they're really happy in and get that right right from the beginning that you guys do, it's unlikely that they're going to move into another rental because it's hard to do better than that.


Speaker 1 (00:29:40) - And it's also difficult for them to buy their own home due to this affordability constraint with the higher mortgage rates and higher prices. And when it comes to property prices, we listen to that media piece earlier where it was stated that the average or median home price, whatever it was, is about 200 K. So tell us about what rent we would see with what price for one of your typical properties there that you prepare for investors? Long var properties once they'd gone through the full turnkey renovation process and have been rented, they fall somewhere in a price range of 115 to say $140,000. Maybe our average sweet spot there. And those rents range anywhere from 1200 to $1500 a month, just sort of depending again on the location where it is and that sort of thing. So that medium may be up there in the 200 range. But again, we're sort of focusing on the B-class areas. And so that's where our price points tend to fall, that sort of like 120 to 140 price range. And if you're new to the show and you're a listener in Brooklyn, New York or Burbank, California, we're not talking about the 20% down payment amount here.


Speaker 1 (00:30:51) - We're talking about the complete purchase price amount with what we've discussed there. Tell us about your availability just in general over time. The inventory here, not unlike a lot of places around the country, is very tight right now. I mean, a lot of people are staying in homes and real estate just isn't moving like it was. So we're still finding opportunities, but not like we were. And that goes all the way down to home owner occupants. They're having a hard time finding places to buy because the sellers aren't selling. And that I think, trickles down to tenants as well. They're just fewer places to rent. That's what we're seeing. There is less supply than demand. And when something is coming on the market, I mean, it's getting gobbled up pretty quick, be it a rental or a property to buy. So the demand is still very strong and inventory is low. No, I'm curious, with prices that low, 150 K or less now that mortgage interest rates are higher, I think you know that I'm a leverage fan and we have ratios like that.


Speaker 1 (00:31:52) - You might be able to pay a higher interest rate yet still have cash flow but with higher interest rates. Brian Have you seen it where anyone is interested in making an all cash payment, a greater proportion of those people than there used to be? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're seeing people bring more money to the table for the down payment. We've seen quite a few cash buyers that we didn't normally see before. So yeah, people are just, you know, using their resources to write some of these things out or there's understanding to that this interest rate level is probably short term. And so they're like, you know, hey, let me go ahead and get this great property and hold on to it. Now, put a little bit more money into it. I'll refinance it later. So we are seeing a lot of people think more with that type of strategy in mind. I guess one approach is paying all cash now and then mortgage rates come down to a level where an investor is comfortable.


Speaker 1 (00:32:40) - They could maybe do an 80% cash out refinance. In my experience. What I've found, though, is that usually when someone pays for a property, all cash, no matter what mortgage rates do, they don't go back and get a mortgage on it. They just leave it paid all cash. That's what I always tend to see happen. Absolutely. And that's not a wrong way to go at all. I'll tell you what. And with appreciation built in and then, you know, all the other benefit tax write off benefits and those types of things. I mean, it ends up being a great place to put your cash if you had your cash, if you look at the full picture of the return. So to your point, people who go there temporarily end up staying there, right? Yeah, it goes from temporary to permanent and keep that paid off condition, even though it probably doesn't make a lot of financial sense. But it can depend on what situation. Well, in conclusion here, is there just anything else that an investor should know in general about the Little Rock market or Little Rock property or the particular renovations that you make to the property there? One thing just to point out kind of from an earlier part of our conversation about why, you know, the city is great for young professionals and had that Forbes ranking.


Speaker 1 (00:33:48) - And, you know, our cost of living here in Little Rock is 17% below the national average. So your money just goes further here. I believe. And I think that translates out right. And you know, at our unemployment is around 2%. So it's a very low unemployment rate. So the cost of living is lower your dollars go farther. Your tenants here tend to be more stable. There's job opportunities for them. So I think all of that builds into why Little Rock is a great investment market and why we see tenants stay in units for longer than their lease periods. As far as availability and quality of renovations, I mean, we certainly have availability. We have deals popping up all the time. I mean, we're known for our renovations and being at the top end of our renovations and a lot of our tenants come to us almost word of mouth. They've been in one of our rentals before with a friend or neighbor, and a lot of times they are knocking on our doors as we're renovating, asking when is this going to be available for rent? So a lot of it is reputation of product out there, even among the tenant population, not just the buyers out there.


Speaker 1 (00:34:53) - So I think those are some of the things we have going for us here. We continue on our our journey here. We've been investing in Little Rock since 1997, so we've got a great track record here and a lot of great experience. Yeah, Your volume of repeat investors that want to keep buying there is really a testimony to what you're doing. Well, thank you so much for sharing this. It's really an opportunity a lot of people don't know about or a lot of people don't think about. It's hard to find a more investor advantaged place than Little Rock, Arkansas, and surrounding central Arkansas. There for you, the listener from Marketplace, you'll see our little rock provider there or contact your investment coach If you don't have an investment coach yet, you can visit Marketplace com slash coach and pick your coach It's been great chatting about Little Rock. Oh yeah, a great chat about Little Rock. You know, one of the things that I visited while in Little Rock, it was the Clinton Presidential Library.


Speaker 1 (00:35:56) - It's worth checking out. But, you know, the one thing that I did not see, despite all the memorabilia and historic tributes to Bill Clinton there, there was not one mention, nothing about Monica Lewinsky. I could not find one in the whole place. I guess it's his library and he'll be remembered how he wants to be. But yeah, these numbers really work for investors 1200 to $1500 rent renovations like what we discussed in purchase prices of 115 to 140 K, So you can start with one of those properties or get a pack of these smaller sized single family rentals and then they can manage them all for you long term. They seek tenants for life there, quote unquote. So we're talking about working class, stable families now here in central Arkansas that should not be confused with higher priced areas out in northwest Arkansas. Okay. The provider and I were talking off air about a story that's emblematic of that area, Northwest Arkansas, a schoolteacher priced out of Bentonville. She couldn't find housing there. So she lives in a Fayetteville rental and commutes into Bentonville.


Speaker 1 (00:37:12) - Okay. Those are both northwest Arkansas cities. Of course, Bentonville is famously known as the Walmart headquarters. So we're not talking about northwest Arkansas here, which is an area that just doesn't work as well for long term rentals as Little Rock, central Arkansas. Forbes Even highlighting that Little Rock ranks as one of the top ten places for young professionals to live in, pointing out those super low house prices, Little Rock should be considered to see if it fits into your portfolio as a stable place with some of America's very best cash flows, which you can do is from Marketplace. You'll see our little rock provider there. If you want to connect with the provider yourself, you can also go directly to Marketplace slash Little Rock or if you prefer, contact your investment coach. It is free and Jerry marketplace slash coach until next week when I'll be back to help you build real estate wealth. I'm your host, Keith Winfield. Don't quit your day dream.


Speaker 4 (00:38:16) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice.


Speaker 4 (00:38:20) - Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.


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The Fed can raise interest rates, but they cannot create housing supply. 

Housing intelligence analyst Rick Sharga joins us for the second week in a row.

This housing market is awful for primary residence homebuyers. But at GRE Marketplace, you can still buy income properties with rates as low as 4.75%.

Rick tells us that the most prosperous markets now favor the: Midwest and Southeast, single-family homes, rental property investors with buy-and-hold strategies.

National home prices are appreciating modestly. Home sales volume is still down.

Investors now account for more than one-quarter of property purchases.

Mortgage delinquencies are near an all-time low.

Rick and I discuss why this market is so bad for flippers. 

High homeowner equity positions ($300K+) support this housing market. 


The impact of rising mortgage rates [00:02:37]

Discussion on how the Federal Reserve's raising of short-term rates has caused mortgage rates to go up, affecting the housing market.

The affordability challenge [00:03:38]

Exploration of the impact of higher mortgage rates on homebuyers, particularly first-time buyers, and the decrease in affordability.

Low supply of homes [00:08:48]

Analysis of the low inventory of homes for sale, with a decrease of 9% from the previous year and 47% from 2019, leading to a challenging market.

The mortgage rate lock in effect [00:11:05]

Discussion on how the mortgage rate lock in effect can crimp demand but cannot create supply.

Hottest markets in the Midwest and Southeast [00:11:05]

Analysis of the hottest real estate markets in the Midwest and Southeast regions of the United States.

Positive turn in home price appreciation [00:13:06]

Explanation of how home price appreciation went down but has recently turned positive again.

Housing Permits, Starts, and Construction [00:21:24]

Discussion on the trends and levels of housing permits, starts, and construction, and the need for builders to increase production.

Investor Activity in the Residential Market [00:22:28]

Exploration of the percentage of home purchases made by investors, with a focus on small and medium-sized investors and the misconception of institutional investors dominating the market.

Delinquencies and Foreclosures [00:24:36]

Analysis of mortgage delinquency rates, foreclosure activity, and homeowner equity, highlighting the low delinquency rates, the presence of equity in foreclosed homes, and the importance of early-stage foreclosure sales.

The future direction of rents [00:32:00]

Discussion on the potential upward pressure on rents due to low affordability and high homeownership rate.

Inventory coming to the market [00:33:03]

Exploration of the impact of expensive inventory coming to the market and its effect on rent prices.

The overall economy and housing market [00:34:03]

Consideration of the possibility of a recession, unemployment spike, and foreclosures affecting the housing market.

The coach's role in finding real estate deals [00:43:06]

Explanation of how an investment coach can help you find the best real estate deals in the marketplace.

Advantages of buying properties from marketplace [00:44:20]

Reasons why buying properties from marketplace can lead to good deals, including lower prices and absence of emotional seller involvement.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

Rick Sharga’s website:

Rick Sharga on X (Twitter):


Get mortgage loans for investment property: or call 855-74-RIDGE 

or e-mail:

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(00:00:01) - Welcome to. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Hold a terrific discussion today on the direction of the housing market, including lessons that you can learn for all time plummeting home sales volume and direly low home inventory. Why home price appreciation is taking place now. Could the government soon penalize you for owning too many rental properties? What's the best place for a real estate investor to position themselves in this era? And more today on Get Rich Education.


(00:00:33) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get rich education.


(00:00:56) - Walking from Horseheads, New York to Nags Head, North Carolina, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold. And you're listening. To get rich education, you are going to get a fantastic market update today. And along the way, you'll also learn lessons if you're consuming this 5 or 10 years from now. Our expert guest was with us last week to discuss the economy. This week, it's episode two of two as we discuss the real estate market.


(00:01:25) - He has been the executive VP of markets at some of America's leading housing intelligence firms, and today he's the founder and CEO of Patrick Company, either a market intelligence firm for the real estate and mortgage markets. And he has 20 plus years of experience in those industries. It's the return of Rick Saga Part two of two. It's not imperative that you listen to last week's Part one of two that we can help you see the big picture. Enjoy this long, unbroken interview and then after the break, I'll come back to close it. Just you and I. We're talking with Rick Sagar, expert housing analyst, previously. We talked about the general condition of the economy. And now Rick and I are going to break down the housing market with what's happening there. There's so definitively connected. Keith One of the things to that the Federal Reserve has done by raising those short term rates is caused mortgage rates to go up, right? Mortgage rates tend to run loosely in line with the yields on the ten year US Treasury bonds that we talked about at the end of the first segment.


(00:02:37) - Those are now up around 4%. And typically a 30 year fixed rate mortgage will be between one and a half and two percentage points higher than that yield. So in a normal market, we'd be looking at a mortgage rate today of about five and a half to 6%. Instead because of the risk and the volatility that the market is pricing in because they're not sure what the Federal Reserve is going to do next. We're looking at mortgage rates for a 30 year fixed rate loan of over 7%. The most recent numbers from last week from Freddie Mac, we were at almost 7.2% on that average, 30 year fixed rate loan and 6.5% on a 15 year fixed rate loan. You and I were talking before the show and and you know, historically speaking, if we keep these things in context, we're still actually below the 25 year average, which was 8%. But we have a whole generation of homebuyers who've come of age during the period of the lowest mortgage rates in the history of the country. They got spoiled, they got spoiled.


(00:03:38) - And to be clear, it's one of the reasons that home prices rose as rapidly as they did and got as high as they are is because you could afford to make monthly payments with a two and a half, three, 3.5% mortgage. Now, you still have home prices about as high as they were then, and you have a mortgage rate that's doubled. And for most home buyers, particularly first time home buyers that make your monthly mortgage payment was going to go up by 45 to 60%. And most of us didn't get that 45 to 60% raise last year. It really had a huge impact on affordability. In fact, this is such an unusual occurrence that according to Freddie Mac, it's the only time in US history when mortgage rates doubled during a calendar year and they didn't just double in a calendar year. Keith They doubled in the space in a few months. It was that kind of systemic shock to the system that really hit the housing market as hard as it did. Right. And they've also nearly tripled in a pretty short period of time.


(00:04:35) - Yeah, they really have. And again, going back historically speaking and and get this from Gen Z folks and millennials, when I talk about, you know, the old days of mortgage and I do remember my first mortgage had two numbers to the left of the decimal point. I forget if it was 11 or 12%, but it was something like that. And they basically say, okay, Boomer, but that 11% mortgage was on your $70,000 house, Right. And not, you know, today's median priced home of $430,000 or whatever it is. So it's a fair point. Mortgage rates are not high, historically speaking, but that monthly cost, because of the combination of home prices and higher interest rates, is choking some people and making affordability a problem. And because of that, one of the forward looking metrics that I take a look at is the purchase loan mortgage application index from the Mortgage Bankers Association. So this is the number of people that are applying for loans with the purpose of buying a house.


(00:05:35) - They're off almost 30% on a year over year basis right now. You can see without straining your eyes at all the impact that these higher mortgage rates are having on the housing market. And we had almost record numbers of purchase loan applications from the time people who are allowed out of their house during the pandemic until these mortgage rates doubled from 2020 through the early part of 2022, mortgage rates were in the threes and fours and sometimes even in the twos. Yeah, everyone wants to talk about mortgage rates and it is an important discussion to have here at Marketplace with our investment coaches. Rick Some builders, as you know, they commonly offer rate buy down incentives to buyers of new homes. And what some of our providers are doing here, Rick, is we have one builder where if you use their preferred lender, they're buying down your income property's mortgage rate to 5.75%. And we have another builder where if you use their preferred lender, they're still buying down your mortgage rate to 4.75%. And of course, with Non-owner occupied property here, you know, previously you had talked about mortgage rates in excess of seven.


(00:06:47) - They might normally be about 8% for non owner occupied property, but you're able to buy them down to five and three quarters or even four and three quarters with one of our providers for new builds right now, that's a great deal and your listener should really be taking advantage of those opportunities. We'll get into new homes in a few minutes and what we're seeing builders do for consumers, But have to tell you, those numbers are better deals than consumers are getting right now. And you're being generous when you're talking about private lending rates right now. Most of the lenders I'm familiar with are nine, ten, 11%, depending on the nature of your investment. So your folks are getting a great deal with those rates. We talked about purchase loan applications. The other advanced predictor I look at is pending home sales. These are people that are entering into contracts. The deal hasn't been closed yet. Has it been recorded yet? This comes out from the National Association of Realtors. And those numbers are down on a year over year basis as well.


(00:07:42) - There's a lot of rate sensitivity in the market, though, Keith. And if you go back to March when rates went down just a fraction of a percent, we saw more purchase loan applications. We saw more pending home sales. But as rates have climbed back up over seven, we've seen both of these metrics go down. Yeah. So we're talking about pending home sales. We're talking about sales volume that's down in this discussion, not sales price. And anyone might be hard to say, but when you see sales volume that's down, including pending sales, how often is that due to worse affordability and how often is that due to low supply of homes? Why don't we jump right into that? Keith That's a great segue. And this is a very difficult time in the housing market because it has both of the factors that you just mentioned, two very difficult headwinds for the market to try and overcome. And and we'll get into details on both of those in just a minute. Because of that, existing home sales were down in July and they were down pretty significantly on a year over year basis, about 16%.


(00:08:48) - And that's the 23rd consecutive month where existing home sales were lower than they were the prior year. January was the lowest month of sales this month, and it broke a streak we started this year. I was forecasting that we'd see between 4.3 and 4.4 existing home sales. That's down from about 5.2 last year in about 6.1 million the year before. Right now, we're trending at a little over 4 million existing home sales for the year. So even my relatively low forecast for the year may have been overly optimistic. You mentioned inventory and inventory is a huge headwind for the market. Inventory of homes for sale today is down about 9% from where it was a year ago. It's down 47% from where we were in 2019, which was probably the last normal year we've had in the housing market. In a normal year, we would be looking at about a six month supply of homes available for sale. That's what economists or housing market analysts will look at as a balanced market balance between supply and demand. We're at about two and a half months supply right now nationally and in many states it's much lower than that.


(00:09:56) - So there's just not much out here. And the only reason the inventory number looks as good as it looks and it doesn't look very good is because it's taking a little longer to sell properties once they hit the market. If you were looking at new listing data, it's even worse. There's very little inventory coming to market in the way of new listings, and that's because of the rate increases we talked about a minute ago. 90% of borrowers with a mortgage have an interest rate on that mortgage of 6% or less. 70% have an interest rate of 4% or less. If you're sitting on a mortgage rate of 3.5% and you sell your house and buy a house at the same exact price with a 7% mortgage, you've just doubled your monthly mortgage payment. It's not that people psychologically don't want to trade a low rate for a high rate. There's a financial penalty for them doing so. And until we see mortgage rates come down a bit, probably into the fives, we're just not going to see a lot of inventory coming to market except for homeowners who need to sell or have so much equity and maybe you're going to downsize into a smaller property that they don't care about that kind of shift.


(00:11:05) - Yeah, that is the mortgage rate lock in effect. Perfectly explain. And the Fed with the raising rates, they can crimp demand. But one thing that the Fed cannot do is create supply. As much as you might like to see Jerome Powell in work boots with a nail gun, that just doesn't happen. There's an image for you, for your listeners. Yeah, and I'm not sure I'd want to. I'd want to live in that house. That's not Chairman Powell building, but inspection. Yeah. Good economist. Maybe not a carpenter. We were talking about this a little bit earlier, too. And if you're an investor, this is probably worth noting, whether you're a fix and flip investor or investor who's buying properties to rent out a lot of the interest. This is from the sharing some data from and they've taken a look at where people are searching for properties and where transactions are taking place and they're finding that Midwest Southeast are really the hottest markets, places that are a little off the beaten path, you know, places in New Hampshire and Connecticut and Maine and Ohio and Wisconsin.


(00:12:06) - But interestingly, some of the markets that had been suffering a little bit, they're starting to see a little more interest in whether it's California, but off the coast or markets in Colorado or Washington state. But clearly, a lot of the activity, a lot of the money is moving into the Midwest, in southeast. That's right. With the work from anywhere trend, you might see this small flattening and not as much of a disparity in home prices between markets. You're certainly still going to see that, but that can just help create a mild flattening when it doesn't matter where you live anymore and you can go ahead and purchase in lower cost markets. Yeah, and what I'm sharing now is national home prices, home price. And I'm glad you mentioned what you just did, Keith, because the fact of the matter is this has been a very localized correction. And if you're in San Francisco or San Jose, if you're in Seattle, if you're in Austin, if you're in Phoenix, you're in markets where prices are off 10% or more from peak.


(00:13:06) - If you're in Boise, Idaho, you're off more than 10% from peak of Boise had oil prices go up by 47% in a single year, a year or so ago. So he just overshot the mark. One of the reasons the national numbers don't show more volatility is because of what Keith just mentioned. It's because people are trading in where they are in a high price, high tax state moving into a lower price state and candidly outbidding local buyers and probably overpaying a little bit for those properties. So you're seeing home prices go up in some of those less expensive markets much more rapidly than they would under normal circumstances. And what we're talking about here is national home prices that are appreciating at a modest rate now. Yeah, and they are. So if you look at whether you're looking at the Case-Shiller index, it gets published monthly or the National Association of Realtors data. We saw home price appreciation start to go down last year. It was still positive but going down and that was true until pretty much the end of the first quarter this year when the data went negative for the first time in years.


(00:14:15) - So we were seeing on both a month over month and year over year basis home prices go down and that happened until June, June, things flatlined in July. Prices actually went up ah, year over year. So if you're looking at the median home price compared to the peak price a year ago, it's actually up about 1% from where we were last year, which is kind of amazing. The Case-Shiller index is a little bit of a lagging indicator and it rolls three months together, but it also started to turn the corner with its July report. So after almost a full year of price appreciation coming down and prices in decline, we've seen both of these indexes turn and are starting to go positive. It does show you that there continues to be demand for properties that are brought to market. And while home price appreciation certainly isn't soaring by any means, it's back in positive territory now. And that's something that a lot of people hadn't predicted this year. When the supply of homes is this low, it keeps generating a few bids for any available home.


(00:15:21) - Now, not as many bids as it did back in 2021. But besides generating bids, you have these huge population cohorts of millennials and Gen Zers that are growing, and they're in their prime homebuyer years moving through the system to go ahead and place those bids and keep just modest home price appreciation here lately. That's sort of how I see it. Rick If you want to add any color or thoughts to that, I think you're spot on. Keith It's the largest cohort of young adults between the ages of 25 and 34 in US history. That's prime age for forming a household. 33 to 34 is the average age of a first time buyer right now. And so these people would like to buy a house. And for people who are investing in single family rental properties in particular, at least short term, the affordability issue is something that definitely works in your favor. If somebody was looking to buy a house, they might prefer to rent a house rather than rent an apartment. I've read research that shows somewhere between 20 and 30% of people who had planned to buy have decided to rent for the next year or two while market conditions settle down or while they can put aside more money for a down payment.


(00:16:27) - These market conditions are playing in favor of people who have rental properties to offer. One other metric I'd like to share in terms of home prices, Keith is the FHFa puts out its own index. FHFa is the government entity that controls Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. So these are your conventional bread and butter, vanilla kind of 30 year fixed rate loans. If you look at their portfolio, home prices are actually up 3.1% year over year. And every sector of the country is showing positive rice appreciation except for the Pacific states and the mountain states. And those are some of the markets we talked about earlier. And even those are very close to breaking even at this point. So HFA breaks it into about ten regions, nine of those ten currently appreciating year over year. Yep, something like that important for you to know again as an investor as to what's happening in your region. Again, whether you're you're planning to sell the property or rent it out. You talked about what builders are doing for your investor folks.


(00:17:28) - Yeah, we're seeing new home sales actually improving to consumers as well for a lot of the same reasons, incentives. So a lot of builders are coming to the closing table with cash. They're paying points on mortgages and getting those rates down where they're short term or long term. They're offering discounts, they're offering upgrades to properties. And so new home sales are still down, but just slightly on a year over year basis and have actually been beating last year's numbers for the last four months. My original estimate for new home sales this year was about 600,000. I think we're going to probably coming closer to 675,000 this year. And the only reason we won't sell more is because the builders aren't building that fast enough. But one of the reasons people are buying these new homes is because that's what's on the market today. People would have bought an existing home, can't find one. Here's the other factor. New home prices are down 16.4% from last year's peak. Now, this is informative. Think this would surprise a lot of people? Well, it surprises me.


(00:18:28) - It should surprise people because new home prices almost always go up, right? This does not mean builders are discounting homes 16.4%. What's happening is they are building less expensive homes, They're less expensive per square foot, and they're building smaller homes. And they're doing that in acknowledgement of the higher cost of financing. That also, by the way, is in sending people to look at these properties as either a starter home or a minor move up kind of property. But it is one of the reasons why new home sales are doing better than existing home sales right now on a percentage basis. That's an interesting number, Rick. A few weeks ago, I shared with our newsletter audience that builders are building homes smaller and closer together, which might be reflected in lower prices, but just didn't think it would be 16.4% lower from peak. Now, if you're doing year over year, it's probably not that big of a drop, but from the peak price we are off. And it is to your point, it's a pretty significant number.


(00:19:26) - It would be a problematic number if it was the existing home market, right, because then you'd be looking at the same property being worth 16% less. But a builder can kind of play with those numbers a little bit. Single family housing starts after falling for quite a while, are now back going back up only slightly from where they were a year ago, but they are moving in the right direction. Multifamily starts have actually tailed off a little bit after reaching record high numbers. There could be as many as a million apartment units coming to market this year. Yeah, which would be an all time record. So we've seen building on those multifamily units slow down a little bit. If you look at at new home starts for single family properties still below where they were a year ago. But again, for the first time in quite a few months, starting to trend up. A couple of things to share with your viewers here, Keith. In terms of construction, we're seeing construction continue to grow in the multifamily market because of all the starts we saw previously.


(00:20:23) - We are seeing single family construction slowed down, but that's because the builders are working their way through a glut of homes that was under construction. So we had a really weird happenstance about a year ago, a little over year, we had the highest number of homes under construction ever. And this data goes back to the early 1970s, and we had the lowest number of completed properties available for sale ever. And a lot of that was due to supply chain delays and to labor shortages. And over the last year to 15 months, the builders have gradually begun working through this glut of homes that were started but not finished. And we've seen the number of completed homes go up a little bit, almost back to normal levels, not quite there. One of the reasons they're not quite there is people are buying these homes before they're completed. They're working with the builder. Buying a home is it's almost ready to go, but still under construction. What's been encouraging, looking into the future is that permitting has increased a bit over the last two quarters.


(00:21:24) - We know builders are betting on the future. They're not necessarily breaking ground on all these properties they have permits for because they don't want to oversaturate either. And they're being very judicious w